locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited February 2009
One reason for removing bhop would be to reduce the learning curve. I think putting it in NS2 <u>as it is for NS1</u> would needlessly increase the learning curve. I think the queued-jump solution is a defensible position.
<!--quoteo(post=1700931:date=Feb 20 2009, 01:01 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Feb 20 2009, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sup. Got a (slightly outrageous, even dumb) idea, even though I detest Bunny Hopping.
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a lot, and, if high enough speeds were allowed, could possibly allow for bunnyhopping, just with the need to hold down w in this case.
<!--quoteo(post=1700931:date=Feb 20 2009, 05:01 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Feb 20 2009, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sup. Got a (slightly outrageous, even dumb) idea, even though I detest Bunny Hopping.
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure I understand how this is supposed to work. Is this a little like multiplying the NS movement momemtum by 10? How does that give players an exact control over the movement? The way I understood your idea is that the player can control the speed by making counter moves to the direction if he wants to slow down, but I just can't get the grasp of how it's supposed to give maximum precision. I can see some speed management, but landing on a precise distance sounds still quite tricky.
I feel that either it isn't all that precise or you're spending way too much time and space trying to adjust your speed. For example while you're standing on a rail you can't make any sidesteps to get the speed right or while ambushing you're forced to break the ambush and take a few steps before you've got the right speed for the planned jump. Any examples where a system like this was successfully implemented?
Of course the whole movement precision is more about the air control than bhop directly. The bhop itself is very iffy, since we don't know anything about the skulk gameplay yet. I guess I could live with just the air control without bhop, but skulk gameplay needs a ton of new dimensions on other areas of gameplay then.
The momentum idea is cool but lacking... it's not just about increasing your speed, it's about controlling your speed. This isn't a solution to replace bhop and air control.
<!--quoteo(post=1701106:date=Feb 22 2009, 09:47 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 22 2009, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not everyone who visits these forums posts. All of the 'opportunities' you mention were for learning outside the game. There was nothing in NS that explained to you that <b>A:</b> Bunnyhop exists, and <b>B:</b> It is not a bug and is fair use, and <b>C:</b> It can be performed like so.
The point Puzl is trying to make is that if it's optional to hold forward then nobody will be punished for pushing it when trying to bhop. At the moment you are punished for thinking that to continue going forward, you hold forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone has seen someone bhop, EVERYONE. If they don't ask how it's done that's their fault. I've never seen anyone not help a new player or someone who wanted to learn. Though i have seen many too stubborn to learn, (people still straight-line skulk after 6 years.)
And I showed his point is irrelevant because being able to hold forward during a bhop would just make it more difficult. Even still, not holding forward is like .0001% of learning how to bhop and allowing you to do so would solve nothing. Moreover, if you could bhop in a straight line it would defeat much of the purpose, which is to throw off marine aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1701137:date=Feb 22 2009, 06:32 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 22 2009, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One reason for removing bhop would be to reduce the learning curve. I think putting it in NS2 <u>as it is for NS1</u> would needlessly increase the learning curve. I think the queued-jump solution is a defensible position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bhop is not required in order to play, therefore not a part of the learning curve. It does however add another dimension to the game and depth.
As I've stated before, queued jumping doesn't make bhop significantly easier, spamming the jump button is not difficult.
NS2 may end up with ns1 style air control as the lerk needs some form of it to fly. Bhop, strafe jump, double jump, etc. will only be in as a byproduct of that or the general movement code. I also find it highly unlikely that you can code in bhop with LUA, unless the engine natively supports it (also air control) and the LUA code removes it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited February 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1701232:date=Feb 23 2009, 06:37 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(commofdoom @ Feb 23 2009, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhop is not required in order to play, therefore not a part of the learning curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's just a silly statement. It's a part of the game, and as stated by many players here required for competitive play. It's absolutely part of the learning curve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhop is not required in order to play, therefore not a part of the learning curve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the way some people talk on here sounds if it's the ONLY reason to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1701238:date=Feb 24 2009, 01:24 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 24 2009, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the way some people talk on here sounds if it's the ONLY reason to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say it <b>affects</b> MOST of the reasons why I play NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'd say that bunnyhop is definetely part of learning curve. But its quite challenging to learn from a scratch. So easier way to adapt the bunnyhop would be better for NS. Like bunnyhopping straight would be the easiest, but that wont help you from dodging the bullets. If you learn first how to bunnyhop straight, then you may add some dodging styles yourself. It should be easier to learn, but hard to master, as it is.
So easiest would be to just jump forward and your speed increases. Hardest would be to jump between the walls while your speed increases, and possibly do some dodging moves between those jumps. Like a super ball bouncing fast forward in small corridor.
Btw, what do you think of the bhop as a balancing factor? The challenging method of movement has allowed UWE to create a very unique lifeform. For example if skulks had a sprint key, the low skill vs low skill fights would most likely be a lot more alien biased. That could force the devs to readjust a lot of other different factors in LMG vs skulk gameplay. I don't know if the results were better or worse, but different at least.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2aq3mpOSbg#t=6m10s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2aq3mpOSbg#t=6m10s</a> This is the only answer, I guess.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701262:date=Feb 24 2009, 02:52 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Feb 24 2009, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, what do you think of the bhop as a balancing factor? The challenging method of movement has allowed UWE to create a very unique lifeform. For example if skulks had a sprint key, the low skill vs low skill fights would most likely be a lot more alien biased. That could force the devs to readjust a lot of other different factors in LMG vs skulk gameplay. I don't know if the results were better or worse, but different at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably true. There's going to be many balancing changes anyway, so I'd imagine the devs will focus on what's best for the game, and can be done within their timeframe.
<!--quoteo(post=1701238:date=Feb 24 2009, 11:24 AM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 24 2009, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the way some people talk on here sounds if it's the ONLY reason to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> some people love to bounce around and pew pew
In my mind, the most pressing reason to maintain Bhop is that it allows marine skill and skulk skill to scale at somewhere close to the same rate.
A noob marine aiming at a noob skulk will miss 50% of his shots even while the skulk straight-lines in, leading to a pretty even fight. A moderately good marine will nail the straightliner skulk, but will have a pretty even fight against the skulk who dodges and uses corners. A pro marine will nail both of those skulks, but has a pretty even fight against the b-hopping skulk. And the pro b-hopping skulk will tear up both of the lesser marines too.
If skulks lose B-hopping, it seems like the available skill width would shrink to be much less than the available marine skill width. (You can ALWAYS get better at aiming.) Skulks could be balanced to be competitive either with the noob marines or with the pro marines, but it would be almost impossible to be balanced vs both of them. I suppose you could replace B-Hopping with some other skill system that would have a similar effect, but I don't have any idea what it would be.
<!--quoteo(post=1701290:date=Feb 24 2009, 12:33 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Feb 24 2009, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my mind, the most pressing reason to maintain Bhop is that it allows marine skill and skulk skill to scale at somewhere close to the same rate.
A noob marine aiming at a noob skulk will miss 50% of his shots even while the skulk straight-lines in, leading to a pretty even fight. A moderately good marine will nail the straightliner skulk, but will have a pretty even fight against the skulk who dodges and uses corners. A pro marine will nail both of those skulks, but has a pretty even fight against the b-hopping skulk. And the pro b-hopping skulk will tear up both of the lesser marines too.
If skulks lose B-hopping, it seems like the available skill width would shrink to be much less than the available marine skill width. (You can ALWAYS get better at aiming.) Skulks could be balanced to be competitive either with the noob marines or with the pro marines, but it would be almost impossible to be balanced vs both of them. I suppose you could replace B-Hopping with some other skill system that would have a similar effect, but I don't have any idea what it would be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to push this argument a little extra. We're not talking about computer controlled zerglings here, where it's fine that the battle is binary (either you reach the marine and can do damage, or you can't, no matter what you do). This is a case of two players who's performances ought to scale well with increased skill in general. Air control and the ability to increase or decrease speed, as well as being able to take off at different speeds, is what accomplishes this in NS1. Of course the relation doesn't have to (and probably shouldn't) be linear.
I'm not sure if everyone appreciates all the subtleties of speed control and it's effect on gameplay. The most obvious of the seldom mentioned "secondary" effects of the "bhop" mechanics is how a good skulk can take off at significantly higher speeds from their first jump (and indeed even on ground) than a less proficient player. Reaching max speed (>520u) in two jumps isn't uncommon among the better players. This affects battles short term, just as bhopping in general gives you great strategical reach. In short, the speed-gain mechanism of bhopping affects a myriad of single game elements. Replacing it with a sprint button could help mimic one effect, a dodge button perhaps another. But there would take a whole lot of patching to cover all the holes left.
And this isn't even touching on how different players master different aspects of the skill. Some players might be better in some parts of maps because of their specific speciality, while another player could be better in other circumstances.
So in summary: if you remove bhopping you'll making holes all over the hull. Not one or two, but a whole slew of them. Repair costs might prove so high you might want to scrap the old boat and get a brand new 360 instead, and buy a sailing game. Less rain and sweat and salt and work, but where would the pirate flag go? Worst. analogy. ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1701299:date=Feb 24 2009, 02:21 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Feb 24 2009, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Repair costs might prove so high you might want to scrap the old boat and get a brand new 360 instead, and buy a sailing game. Less rain and sweat and salt and work, but where would the pirate flag go? Worst. analogy. ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh man, that just made my day. Granted, its only 54 minutes in to my current day, but its still the best thing I've read all day. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1700931:date=Feb 20 2009, 05:01 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Feb 20 2009, 05:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sup. Got a (slightly outrageous, even dumb) idea, even though I detest Bunny Hopping.
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm actually gonna play against this. Here's why.
Play Knytt Stories.
No, really, go download it for free and play.
The really sweet thing about this particular platformer is very smooth, but precise controls. Sure there's a little give, but for the most part you don't have to prep your momentum for a crazy jump. Instead, you get to turn around in the air and grab ledges with your double hop. It means that now you can figure out the puzzle of the jump and perform it without the pain of trying over and over to get the precise timing with a 2 pixel accuracy headstart.
Now, go play N Game.
See momentum. See momentum sometimes make your poor ninja die a painful death. Of course, that's the beauty of the game, but it can also be one of the most frustrating parts of the game. Lack of precision air control.
I'm not saying NS2 is a 2D platformer, but momentum if exaggerated will cause slipping and sliding and less precision air control. It might help with bhop a little since you slide on the ground instead of sticking and losing speed, but changing direction can become a nightmare if you do it wrong. Hopefully this is all null since you've also included a nice way to insta stop with another button press.
NS1 already has momentum fully built into it. It just also has very high friction on the ground, so you don't slide very far -- you lose your momentum while on the ground very fast, thus the requirement to jump instantly when you touch the ground to preserve your bunny-hopping momentum. But that friction can be changed relatively easily through server settings (I think? If not, a mod could change it easily.)
So I guess I don't really understand what the point of "adding momentum" is. How would that be different than the current system?
<!--quoteo(post=1701351:date=Feb 25 2009, 05:00 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 25 2009, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is throwing a curveball part of the learning curve in Baseball?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> wut?
Curve-balls are not glitches in the laws of Physics. You fail.
<!--coloro:#494949--><span style="color:#494949"><!--/coloro--> I assume you wanted someone to say "Yes, cause batters are so good you need to throw curve-balls to beat them" and then you'd follow up with "Aiming is so good you need bunny-hop to beat them" or some crappy erroneous answer along those lines that seems to be par for the course in the hyperbole that is the debate for the necessity of bunny-hop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1701416:date=Feb 25 2009, 07:23 PM:name=killkrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(killkrazy @ Feb 25 2009, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Curve-balls are not glitches in the laws of Physics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you prioritize realism over fun. You should become a professional game designer.
<!--quoteo(post=1701421:date=Feb 25 2009, 08:00 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 25 2009, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is if you're a pitcher. So to carry that argument forward bhop is only part of the learning curve if you play alien ever,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens in little league?
<!--quoteo(post=1701453:date=Feb 26 2009, 01:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 26 2009, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701351" target="_blank">someone else</a> just claimed "Worst. analogy. ever."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701524:date=Feb 26 2009, 05:05 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 26 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens in little league?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...stays in Little League? I don't know, never played Little League. Since a 7 year old's Dad isn't going to come beat me up if I kill his kid's skulk I'm going to have to agree with <b>Harimau</b>. Not a good analogy.
I'll be happy if the skill based movement that they create for the skulk is really easy to use and has enough depth to keep players satisfied, how that can be done, I don't know.
I'm sure after lots of play testing in the office they will work something out
<!--quoteo(post=1701527:date=Feb 26 2009, 06:09 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 26 2009, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...stays in Little League? I don't know, never played Little League. Since a 7 year old's Dad isn't going to come beat me up if I kill his kid's skulk I'm going to have to agree with <b>Harimau</b>. Not a good analogy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In little league no one throws curveballs. Are they still playing baseball, or is it impossible to play baseball without curveballs?
Comments
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a lot, and, if high enough speeds were allowed, could possibly allow for bunnyhopping, just with the need to hold down w in this case.
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure I understand how this is supposed to work. Is this a little like multiplying the NS movement momemtum by 10? How does that give players an exact control over the movement? The way I understood your idea is that the player can control the speed by making counter moves to the direction if he wants to slow down, but I just can't get the grasp of how it's supposed to give maximum precision. I can see some speed management, but landing on a precise distance sounds still quite tricky.
I feel that either it isn't all that precise or you're spending way too much time and space trying to adjust your speed. For example while you're standing on a rail you can't make any sidesteps to get the speed right or while ambushing you're forced to break the ambush and take a few steps before you've got the right speed for the planned jump. Any examples where a system like this was successfully implemented?
Of course the whole movement precision is more about the air control than bhop directly. The bhop itself is very iffy, since we don't know anything about the skulk gameplay yet. I guess I could live with just the air control without bhop, but skulk gameplay needs a ton of new dimensions on other areas of gameplay then.
Much better to have trolls and baddies defining the gameplay right sir?
The point Puzl is trying to make is that if it's optional to hold forward then nobody will be punished for pushing it when trying to bhop. At the moment you are punished for thinking that to continue going forward, you hold forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone has seen someone bhop, EVERYONE. If they don't ask how it's done that's their fault. I've never seen anyone not help a new player or someone who wanted to learn. Though i have seen many too stubborn to learn, (people still straight-line skulk after 6 years.)
And I showed his point is irrelevant because being able to hold forward during a bhop would just make it more difficult. Even still, not holding forward is like .0001% of learning how to bhop and allowing you to do so would solve nothing. Moreover, if you could bhop in a straight line it would defeat much of the purpose, which is to throw off marine aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1701137:date=Feb 22 2009, 06:32 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 22 2009, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One reason for removing bhop would be to reduce the learning curve. I think putting it in NS2 <u>as it is for NS1</u> would needlessly increase the learning curve. I think the queued-jump solution is a defensible position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bhop is not required in order to play, therefore not a part of the learning curve. It does however add another dimension to the game and depth.
As I've stated before, queued jumping doesn't make bhop significantly easier, spamming the jump button is not difficult.
NS2 may end up with ns1 style air control as the lerk needs some form of it to fly. Bhop, strafe jump, double jump, etc. will only be in as a byproduct of that or the general movement code. I also find it highly unlikely that you can code in bhop with LUA, unless the engine natively supports it (also air control) and the LUA code removes it.
That's just a silly statement. It's a part of the game, and as stated by many players here required for competitive play. It's absolutely part of the learning curve.
the way some people talk on here sounds if it's the ONLY reason to play.
I'd say it <b>affects</b> MOST of the reasons why I play NS <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
So easiest would be to just jump forward and your speed increases. Hardest would be to jump between the walls while your speed increases, and possibly do some dodging moves between those jumps. Like a super ball bouncing fast forward in small corridor.
This is the only answer, I guess.
PIKACHU, USE YOUR AGILITY!
Probably true. There's going to be many balancing changes anyway, so I'd imagine the devs will focus on what's best for the game, and can be done within their timeframe.
some people love to bounce around and pew pew
is haz skillz
A noob marine aiming at a noob skulk will miss 50% of his shots even while the skulk straight-lines in, leading to a pretty even fight. A moderately good marine will nail the straightliner skulk, but will have a pretty even fight against the skulk who dodges and uses corners. A pro marine will nail both of those skulks, but has a pretty even fight against the b-hopping skulk. And the pro b-hopping skulk will tear up both of the lesser marines too.
If skulks lose B-hopping, it seems like the available skill width would shrink to be much less than the available marine skill width. (You can ALWAYS get better at aiming.) Skulks could be balanced to be competitive either with the noob marines or with the pro marines, but it would be almost impossible to be balanced vs both of them. I suppose you could replace B-Hopping with some other skill system that would have a similar effect, but I don't have any idea what it would be.
A noob marine aiming at a noob skulk will miss 50% of his shots even while the skulk straight-lines in, leading to a pretty even fight. A moderately good marine will nail the straightliner skulk, but will have a pretty even fight against the skulk who dodges and uses corners. A pro marine will nail both of those skulks, but has a pretty even fight against the b-hopping skulk. And the pro b-hopping skulk will tear up both of the lesser marines too.
If skulks lose B-hopping, it seems like the available skill width would shrink to be much less than the available marine skill width. (You can ALWAYS get better at aiming.) Skulks could be balanced to be competitive either with the noob marines or with the pro marines, but it would be almost impossible to be balanced vs both of them. I suppose you could replace B-Hopping with some other skill system that would have a similar effect, but I don't have any idea what it would be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to push this argument a little extra. We're not talking about computer controlled zerglings here, where it's fine that the battle is binary (either you reach the marine and can do damage, or you can't, no matter what you do). This is a case of two players who's performances ought to scale well with increased skill in general. Air control and the ability to increase or decrease speed, as well as being able to take off at different speeds, is what accomplishes this in NS1. Of course the relation doesn't have to (and probably shouldn't) be linear.
I'm not sure if everyone appreciates all the subtleties of speed control and it's effect on gameplay. The most obvious of the seldom mentioned "secondary" effects of the "bhop" mechanics is how a good skulk can take off at significantly higher speeds from their first jump (and indeed even on ground) than a less proficient player. Reaching max speed (>520u) in two jumps isn't uncommon among the better players. This affects battles short term, just as bhopping in general gives you great strategical reach. In short, the speed-gain mechanism of bhopping affects a myriad of single game elements. Replacing it with a sprint button could help mimic one effect, a dodge button perhaps another. But there would take a whole lot of patching to cover all the holes left.
And this isn't even touching on how different players master different aspects of the skill. Some players might be better in some parts of maps because of their specific speciality, while another player could be better in other circumstances.
So in summary: if you remove bhopping you'll making holes all over the hull. Not one or two, but a whole slew of them. Repair costs might prove so high you might want to scrap the old boat and get a brand new 360 instead, and buy a sailing game. Less rain and sweat and salt and work, but where would the pirate flag go? Worst. analogy. ever.
Oh man, that just made my day. Granted, its only 54 minutes in to my current day, but its still the best thing I've read all day. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
As an alternative to Bunny Hopping and an implementation of advance movement, how about giving giving momentum to movement? For example, if you move forward for a good period of time and let go, your character will keep moving for a very small amount of time. This added momentum can be canceled by pressing the reverse button (but holding it too long will cause you to move in the opposite direction). The end result is that players will have a very smooth movement and people can manage their actions to move more precisely (e.g. jumping rail to rail).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm actually gonna play against this. Here's why.
Play Knytt Stories.
No, really, go download it for free and play.
The really sweet thing about this particular platformer is very smooth, but precise controls. Sure there's a little give, but for the most part you don't have to prep your momentum for a crazy jump. Instead, you get to turn around in the air and grab ledges with your double hop. It means that now you can figure out the puzzle of the jump and perform it without the pain of trying over and over to get the precise timing with a 2 pixel accuracy headstart.
Now, go play N Game.
See momentum. See momentum sometimes make your poor ninja die a painful death. Of course, that's the beauty of the game, but it can also be one of the most frustrating parts of the game. Lack of precision air control.
I'm not saying NS2 is a 2D platformer, but momentum if exaggerated will cause slipping and sliding and less precision air control. It might help with bhop a little since you slide on the ground instead of sticking and losing speed, but changing direction can become a nightmare if you do it wrong. Hopefully this is all null since you've also included a nice way to insta stop with another button press.
I stick by queued jump.
So I guess I don't really understand what the point of "adding momentum" is. How would that be different than the current system?
wut?
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I assume you wanted someone to say "Yes, cause batters are so good you need to throw curve-balls to beat them" and then you'd follow up with "Aiming is so good you need bunny-hop to beat them" or some crappy erroneous answer along those lines that seems to be par for the course in the hyperbole that is the debate for the necessity of bunny-hop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm glad you prioritize realism over fun. You should become a professional game designer.
<!--quoteo(post=1701421:date=Feb 25 2009, 08:00 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 25 2009, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is if you're a pitcher. So to carry that argument forward bhop is only part of the learning curve if you play alien ever,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens in little league?
<!--quoteo(post=1701453:date=Feb 26 2009, 01:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 26 2009, 01:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701351" target="_blank">someone else</a> just claimed "Worst. analogy. ever."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are an idiot.
...stays in Little League? I don't know, never played Little League. Since a 7 year old's Dad isn't going to come beat me up if I kill his kid's skulk I'm going to have to agree with <b>Harimau</b>. Not a good analogy.
I'm sure after lots of play testing in the office they will work something out
In little league no one throws curveballs. Are they still playing baseball, or is it impossible to play baseball without curveballs?