I feel that all games should never "force" or "restrict" a player in their options. If a noob wants to jump into a skill-intensive server, then by all means, let em. HOWEVER, they should be informed of this. For instance, when you first open up Left 4 Dead and try to play versus, it's not like, "Oh, Lets see, you must play on noob servers first." It lets you play, but, it opens up a message saying that its a good idea to get to know the game via co-op first, before getting thrown into the wolves.
I think this should be tied in with NS2's achievements, if it ever has them. AT NO POINT should a player be restricted from a server purely based on stats, achievements, etc. INSTEAD, they should be warned/informed of what they are getting themselves into. If a server has say sv_learning_server "0", and a new player tries to join it, it should bring up a message saying "This server may have players with advanced skill levels and knowledge of the game. It's recommended that new players learn on learning servers to prevent bad experiences for both parties."
But if the new player reads this and accepts, they are still allowed to join the server. (It will give them this message every time they join a non-learning server until pre-reqs are met)
I mean think of it this way: Say for whatever reason you had to get a new steam account and/or re-buy NS2. To play on your favorite servers, that means you first have to get all the achievements. What a PITA.
This method gives players the freedom to do what they want, but at the same time, deters the very newbie behavior we are trying to prevent.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-"FireWater"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("FireWater")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is why I recommended Reserve Slots with Server Labeling sometime ago. Label the server as either casual, competitive, open or locked, and then the player can choose which type of play they want to enjoy. Ranking players will create a false sense of balance and may teach newer players bad habbits because some high ranked players may have their rank unjustifiably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I 100% agree with this. A good system to allow the community to self-organise is all that is really needed. People want to play with like-minded people and the game system needs to facilitate this.
Achiements are great for longevity but they are a cheap substitute for actual gameplay longevity. I wouldn't object to seeing them in NS2 but not at the expense of, say, a HLTV equivalent.
If achievements are to go in then every achievement added needs to be considered in terms of the type of play it encourages. You certainly don't want anything that will allow people on private voice comms to 'rig the system', and I agree that all achievements should be geared towards encouraging teamwork.
However, I would prefer development cycles to be devoted to the core game.
<!--quoteo(post=1712238:date=Jun 13 2009, 11:05 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 13 2009, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you give us some examples of Dead Rising achievements and their requirements? Or perhaps a link to a site that lists them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1712023:date=Jun 12 2009, 11:09 AM:name=warlordcs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (warlordcs @ Jun 12 2009, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ive read this entire thread and i still gotta put my vote in for NOT having achievements. or ranks or anything that could make one player be looked at as better than others.
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.
further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ive read only part of this thread (to epic) so I get the general idea and I agree with warlordcs post on that.
Achievement that are Educational: YES!
Displaying achievements in game: NO, keep it personal (after a game you can check out the profiles in the community website)
Labeling servers "trainer" "casual/fun" "teamplay/pro/elite" would be informative but don't restrict choice.
Achievement that are Educational for teamplay: Yes on a one time basis (do it an done). Maybe personal stat tracking a la TF2 would promote teamplay over time(i.e. most welding time in one life, most building built, most healing, etc, most kills with each class).
Also I'm generally against achievement un-lockables. Except maybe to un-lock use of the command chair until all of the educational achievement are done. Ensuring the player has acquired the basic rules of the game.
Also the discussion on achievement should be separated for the achievements suggestions, thread wise.
Isn't it possible to make a global ranking system by making a certain value that is tied to the server you are playing on to be calculated into your point gaining on that certain server. And this rank of the server is determined by how high the rank of the people is that play on it, how long the games last, how balanced the teams are, bots do not count for any points ... stuff like that.
So you can make a global ranking system for players and servers as well.
You can not compare singular Players, most of the Times they don't have any relevant Impact, and Teams (besides competetive) are to mixed up to say more than squat.
I don't have 3 hours to read this entire post, so I'll just throw in my first thoughts:
Achievements are probably the worst "innovation" in gaming history. They are uncompetitive, meaningless (I DONT CARE if u sapped a sentry while stabbing an engineer while doing a backflip off of a building), and completely ruin any attempt at immersion. Achievements are of the realm of consoles, and as consoles are the epitome of superficiality and childishness (though sometimes fun, I admit), I truly hope that achievements will never be even considered in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1712934:date=Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM:name=FrostFire626)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrostFire626 @ Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I DONT CARE if u sapped a sentry while stabbing an engineer while doing a backflip off of a building<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tch. Just 'cause you can't do it, don't ruin the fun for others. (Translation: The player themself actually cares. It's just an extra bit of fun. Relax.)
<!--quoteo(post=1712934:date=Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM:name=FrostFire626)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrostFire626 @ Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I truly hope that achievements will never be even considered in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem with that though, is that achievements in online gaming, thanks to consoles and Valve, have become somewhat... standard. Just like a scoreboard is standard.
Achievements are all and good, but linking them to matchmaking or game-altering rewards is a terrible idea. Why? One big reason: Achievement farming servers. They usually have special maps to make getting achievements very quick and easy.
In short, its not a very good measure of anything. They're a fun addition to a game, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1713751:date=Jun 24 2009, 09:21 AM:name=NEDM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NEDM @ Jun 24 2009, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements are all and good, but linking them to matchmaking or game-altering rewards is a terrible idea. Why? One big reason: Achievement farming servers. They usually have special maps to make getting achievements very quick and easy.
In short, its not a very good measure of anything. They're a fun addition to a game, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QTF
Didn't read the whole thread but:
Yes to achievements (fun way to learn the game)
And NO to liking achievements to "matchmaking or game-altering rewards". EXCEPT with a rare exception to locking command chair use to a specific set to achievements with would translate into you knowing the game well enough to command. This would raise minor issues with our first generation of commanders, but nothing too complicated.
With Server and matchmaking Labels should be enough. "Training", "No Label" or "PRO e1337ist LOLCATZ ONLY - N00bs-B-insta-keek'd!". And I believe that already exists in NS and most online FPS games anyway.
Well, I do agree that some form of achievements should be implemented. However, I don't think it is possible to coordinate when a marine is covering fire for another marine. I think this would need a hell of a lot of programming to be done. It might be impossible too. I don't think that a development team this small is capable of this, or would prioritize this for release in this case. I do think it's a good idea, mainly to point new players in the right direction like you said.
I think that achievements must also include how good a player is. Just to prevent players from being banned for no reason. I quit NS1 for hacking, and I swear on my mother that I have never hacked, unless I was stoned and was playing counter-strike and was with some friends who were trying to piss people off by turning spinbot and aimbot on :D
I never did hack in NS though, and yet I still got banned from all the decent servers for doing so. Many friends that I had while playing the game quit for the same reason. I think that there should be a stop to this just because a lot of the good players ended up leaving the game and the competitive level of NS died shortly after 2.0.
Comments
I think this should be tied in with NS2's achievements, if it ever has them. AT NO POINT should a player be restricted from a server purely based on stats, achievements, etc. INSTEAD, they should be warned/informed of what they are getting themselves into. If a server has say sv_learning_server "0", and a new player tries to join it, it should bring up a message saying "This server may have players with advanced skill levels and knowledge of the game. It's recommended that new players learn on learning servers to prevent bad experiences for both parties."
But if the new player reads this and accepts, they are still allowed to join the server. (It will give them this message every time they join a non-learning server until pre-reqs are met)
I mean think of it this way: Say for whatever reason you had to get a new steam account and/or re-buy NS2. To play on your favorite servers, that means you first have to get all the achievements. What a PITA.
This method gives players the freedom to do what they want, but at the same time, deters the very newbie behavior we are trying to prevent.
players will create a false sense of balance and may teach newer players bad habbits because some high ranked players may have their rank unjustifiably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I 100% agree with this. A good system to allow the community to self-organise is all that is really needed. People want to play with like-minded people and the game system needs to facilitate this.
Achiements are great for longevity but they are a cheap substitute for actual gameplay longevity. I wouldn't object to seeing them in NS2 but not at the expense of, say, a HLTV equivalent.
If achievements are to go in then every achievement added needs to be considered in terms of the type of play it encourages. You certainly don't want anything that will allow people on private voice comms to 'rig the system', and I agree that all achievements should be geared towards encouraging teamwork.
However, I would prefer development cycles to be devoted to the core game.
<a href="http://www.xbox360achievements.org/achievements.php?gameID=55" target="_blank">http://www.xbox360achievements.org/achieve...s.php?gameID=55</a>
Remember it's a single player only game. A lot of the achievements really added to the game and unlocked cool stuff.
if you want to add little achievements to help noobs start out than thats fine, but keep thier progress private, dont let anyone else see or know if they have compleated them.
further more if you do end up putting achievements in please do not give anyone who compleats them anything for it that can change thier ability in the game (better guns,higher rank,better armor, etc....).
i just want people to play this game for the fun of the game and not for these arbitrary rewards<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ive read only part of this thread (to epic) so I get the general idea and I agree with warlordcs post on that.
Achievement that are Educational: YES!
Displaying achievements in game: NO, keep it personal (after a game you can check out the profiles in the community website)
Labeling servers "trainer" "casual/fun" "teamplay/pro/elite" would be informative but don't restrict choice.
Achievement that are Educational for teamplay: Yes on a one time basis (do it an done). Maybe personal stat tracking a la TF2 would promote teamplay over time(i.e. most welding time in one life, most building built, most healing, etc, most kills with each class).
Also I'm generally against achievement un-lockables. Except maybe to un-lock use of the command chair until all of the educational achievement are done. Ensuring the player has acquired the basic rules of the game.
Also the discussion on achievement should be separated for the achievements suggestions, thread wise.
And this rank of the server is determined by how high the rank of the people is that play on it, how long the games last, how balanced the teams are, bots do not count for any points ... stuff like that.
So you can make a global ranking system for players and servers as well.
It's a bit off topic sorry for that.
Achievements are probably the worst "innovation" in gaming history. They are uncompetitive, meaningless (I DONT CARE if u sapped a sentry while stabbing an engineer while doing a backflip off of a building), and completely ruin any attempt at immersion. Achievements are of the realm of consoles, and as consoles are the epitome of superficiality and childishness (though sometimes fun, I admit), I truly hope that achievements will never be even considered in NS2.
Tch. Just 'cause you can't do it, don't ruin the fun for others.
(Translation: The player themself actually cares. It's just an extra bit of fun. Relax.)
<!--quoteo(post=1712934:date=Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM:name=FrostFire626)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrostFire626 @ Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I truly hope that achievements will never be even considered in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem with that though, is that achievements in online gaming, thanks to consoles and Valve, have become somewhat... standard. Just like a scoreboard is standard.
Needs to be one for a commander being killed X seconds after leaving the chair "don't worry guys, I got this..."
maybe one for a single alien drawing out and killing the commander as well "im in ur base killin ur d00ds"
One big reason: Achievement farming servers. They usually have special maps to make getting achievements very quick and easy.
In short, its not a very good measure of anything. They're a fun addition to a game, though.
One big reason: Achievement farming servers. They usually have special maps to make getting achievements very quick and easy.
In short, its not a very good measure of anything. They're a fun addition to a game, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QTF
Didn't read the whole thread but:
Yes to achievements (fun way to learn the game)
And NO to liking achievements to "matchmaking or game-altering rewards". EXCEPT with a rare exception to locking command chair use to a specific set to achievements with would translate into you knowing the game well enough to command. This would raise minor issues with our first generation of commanders, but nothing too complicated.
With Server and matchmaking Labels should be enough. "Training", "No Label" or "PRO e1337ist LOLCATZ ONLY - N00bs-B-insta-keek'd!". And I believe that already exists in NS and most online FPS games anyway.
Typo?
The Q is next to the W after all...
The Q is next to the W after all...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it means "quoted for truth". though incidently he did typo and switch the t and f
I think that achievements must also include how good a player is. Just to prevent players from being banned for no reason. I quit NS1 for hacking, and I swear on my mother that I have never hacked, unless I was stoned and was playing counter-strike and was with some friends who were trying to piss people off by turning spinbot and aimbot on :D
I never did hack in NS though, and yet I still got banned from all the decent servers for doing so. Many friends that I had while playing the game quit for the same reason. I think that there should be a stop to this just because a lot of the good players ended up leaving the game and the competitive level of NS died shortly after 2.0.