You have to admit, though, that the games on Steam that get frequent updates (like TF2 and L4D) have teams larger than UWE's whole studio. For a 4 man team it would take up a huge amount of each of their time to prepare each version for weekly alpha release. It's more important to have updates slowly released and all the bugs and quirks really worked out so that they're not even around anymore than to just push out quick fixes at a rapid rate that may fall apart (which sometimes happens to TF2).
This is why many games don't have release dates anymore. The game is either delayed causing ... this ... or its released way before it should be and is disappointing.
It's not ready yet. If it were, you'd be playing it. I don't know what you expect them to do. They're busy working on the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1732964:date=Oct 20 2009, 03:54 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Oct 20 2009, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what you expect them to do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How come? Everyone is asking the devs for some pronounce about a possible delay. Is it hard to say "we'll have to delay for more X months" or "we'll keep the release date"?
<!--quoteo(post=1732964:date=Oct 20 2009, 07:54 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Oct 20 2009, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will be done when it is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1732908:date=Oct 20 2009, 04:48 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, there is absolutely no reason to delay the alpha release. The game doesn't even have to be playable, they should be releasing weekly builds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know how closely you have been following the development updates but if you read the tweets it is pretty clear that development has a long way to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1732920:date=Oct 20 2009, 07:26 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Oct 20 2009, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything I'd guess at the alpha likely being beta and beta being balance patching or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> By definition of the word, whatever they release to the people who pre-ordered is a beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1732908:date=Oct 20 2009, 03:48 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One would assume if they were going to RELEASE the game in the fall that beta would be 1-2 months BEFORE the end of fall, the alpha 1-2 months BEFORE that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And having an alpha and beta period only taking a combined total of 4 months sounds like a pretty amazing feat to me. Just look below at how long it took NS v3.0 Final to come out, and that was with a game that had already been "Final" for a only just a week shorter than a year. It's development period was a total of <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=10&d1=23&y1=2003&m2=3&d2=5&y2=2005&ti=on" target="_blank">500 days</a>. Ouch.
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2003" target="_blank">2003</a>) 10/23/2003: NS v2.1 Beta expands to Constellation 11/26/2003: Version update and news (v2.1 renamed to v3.0)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will be done when it is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not good enough. At my time of purchasing NS2, i was given an alpha release date. The alpha is still nowhere to be seen. That alone is grounds for a refund.
And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious. I expected at least some semblance of a product by now, and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed. The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.
It would seem that the primary difference between developers who keep their communities in the dark about development and UWE is that UWE has already put up an official pre-order page which you usually don't see other companies doing until they're pretty much certain of a final product ship date. In this case NS2 went up for pre-order with just a teaser trailer and some news releases at lengthy intervals and now here we are in "Fall 2009" with basically nothing new as compared to when the teaser trailer first came out which is pretty disappointing.
<!--quoteo(post=1732975:date=Oct 20 2009, 12:49 PM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 20 2009, 12:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not good enough. At my time of purchasing NS2, i was given an alpha release date. The alpha is still nowhere to be seen. That alone is grounds for a refund.
And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious. I expected at least some semblance of a product by now, and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed. The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you read something I did not but it is my understanding that a preorder means you get it when it ships. I've not seen anywhere that says a preorder guarantees a specific date.
<!--quoteo(post=1732933:date=Oct 20 2009, 06:31 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 20 2009, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember a twitter about their distribution system a little while ago.
I wasn't talking about the config so much as the pace change. They'd have to go from adding features to adding features and fixing bugs weekly. Lose two days to a couple bad bugs, and a speedy release schedule there will be bugs, and you're all ready looking at a half-effective release with another deadline coming up in a couple days. I was on a project doing near daily releases for a while and let me tell you, the product was not the better for it, even with all the direct feedback from the client. We're on two-week release schedules now and the output is about the same while the product is 10 times more stable. No, they should get the game to a relatively stable point before releasing so it will continuously improve over the iterative process. That will reflect better on the devs, be more enjoyable for the testers, and allow the testers to provide much more valuable information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you are assuming they have a responsibly to fix bugs during the <b>alpha</b>; they don't. That might as well be the defining difference between alpha and beta software. If you were to go download an alpha version of firefox, mysql, php, or any other publicly developed software they are guaranteed to be unusable because core features are still being added. They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just arn't releasing them.
As far as I am concerned, when they sold "first access to alpha" they promised to make available early development version of the game.
Then they turn around and post, <!--quoteo(post=1727823:date=Sep 17 2009, 10:49 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 17 2009, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1727823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as people love to say how they want to see anything from the actual game, the average public is not discerning enough to be able to separate what is still in a stand in and unfinished form from how the final game is going to look. Trust me, having worked at various companies for years, a game in the development process is not a pretty thing to look at, and you'd be surprised how much actually comes together right at the very end.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WELL TOO ###### BAD, you already SOLD access to see the unfinished form.
Start releasing weekly development builds, as simple as that.
We've danced around this a few months ago already in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107200&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...107200&st=0</a>
Unfortuntely, the kids in the community will continue to flame those of us that feel a bit used for our pre-orders. They're valid concerns: <ul><li>Pre-orders are typically made available near some sort of release (alpha, beta, final). We're talking within 30 days, not a year.</li><li>We were mis-lead to believe that NS2 was much further along than it was when pre-orders were announced.</li><li>For a game that has been in design and development for years, it's disconcerning to see much of the gameplay elements and designs up for discussion after pre-orders. It's like the game didn't start production until the pre-orders were announced. </li><li>Pre-ordering usually is for a game that is nearing complete, yet it feels like pre-orders are being applied to the actual development of the game with a moving target for a release date.</li><li>Official statements pertaining to release dates in the past have been largely BS defensive comments that seem more like additional smoke screens than actually caring about how we're actually feeling about being let down about this whole pre-order process.</li><li>In the end, we just want the truth, no more fluff, no more smoke-screens, no more delays. I don't want to hear that models were developed a year ago, and are just being shown to us little by little, when it doesn't take mutch to put the pieces together from the news posts and twitter posts that much of the game is still in development.</li><li>It's been months of pre-order dollars, discussions over features and such, why isn't there a sold date for at least the alpha? "Coming soon" for every little thing promised for money we already paid is just more BS thrown at the wall with every passing month.</li><li>Just give us the truth, we already gave you $, it's the least you can provide.</li></ul>
For the rest of you kids... flame away idc.... I pre-purchased 2 copies when it was announced and the further away we get from that pre-order, the further my trust dwindles in UW. Personally, if nothing surfaces by November 1st, I'll be requesting a full refund and never pre-order anything from UW in the future. Pre-ordering is one thing, but funding development as a minor investor with no return is a waste of money and time.
<!--quoteo(post=1732985:date=Oct 20 2009, 02:48 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 20 2009, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you read something I did not but it is my understanding that a preorder means you get it when it ships. I've not seen anywhere that says a preorder guarantees a specific date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe some people still have <a href="http://pc.ign.com/articles/761/761329p1.html" target="_blank">pre-orders for Duke Nukem Forever</a> :D
Yeah I think I should have access to the Alpha (realizing it is unplayable) per the pre-order details but I'm not going to throw a fit if they don't deliver 'on time'. I've had way better experiences with delayed products that were finished than rushed releases that were unplayable due to bugs until the first few patches. I'm still hoping for a Halloween alpha release.
well actually there's a definition missing what the devteam understands in alpha phase i guess.
i may be wrong but people who bought the SE are actually fans of the game and therefore not the "general public". If they don't understand that they will face an incomplete and buggy game and will be testers providing feedback then they should not buy the Special Edition and have a cup of tea.
If you don't want people to test the very early version of a game then you skip the alpha but, as homicide said, why advertise for it then?
<!--quoteo(post=1732975:date=Oct 20 2009, 04:49 PM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 20 2009, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not good enough. At my time of purchasing NS2, i was given an alpha release date. The alpha is still nowhere to be seen. That alone is grounds for a refund.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've never preordered a game that was delayed? Ever? Things happen that unfortunately, cause delays. Screaming and throwing a fit on the forums isn't going to change the fact that its not ready.
I find the response "Just <b>tell</b> us its delayed!" ridiculous, because it won't matter. Not only does it set the president that someone from the company will need to come to the forums to address every single issue or delay, it's redundant. If it was ready, you would be playing it. Since you are not, it is not ready. Do you really need one of the Dev to tell you something that should be quite obvious?
This company doesn't have the man power or availability to monitor the forums and respond to every person throwing a fit. It's like ... 4 people. So, again ... what is it you are expecting them to do? Come to the forums and say something that is completely obvious? Do you think they <b>want</b> to miss their expected release date? Perhaps all the stuff released so far was just an elaborate hoax, with the only intent of screwing you out of your $40? Drop a bunch of code into your lap and say "have fun"?
It's not ready. No amount of screaming or whining or ###### or threatening to get a refund will change that fact. I was chosen as a beta tester for NS quite early in its life and this ###### just takes time. I can't tell you how long it took just to get a playable Onos into the game. Relax a little bit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not obnoxious, it's just the truth. No amount of temper tantrum will change it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I expected at least some semblance of a product by now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps your expectations are set quite a bit too high. The game is not even in ALPHA status yet. Yes, they set the target release at Fall 09 - which isn't even over yet, but ###### happens and they're still working on it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You preordered a game that isn't released yet. Not sure what to tell you, "###### happens"? You'd prefer just an executable that loads a menu or .. what? If its not playable, its not playable. Are you playing it now? No? Then its not playable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are currently <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/about" target="_blank"><b>four</b> people</a> that work at UWE. Personally, I'd prefer they spent their time actually making the game, which I have full confidence they are doing, rather than spend time updating their website. You think they are just sitting around a table, counting all the money from the idiots they fooled online?
They update us consistently, more than any other dev I've seen in quite a while, through Twitter. I personally don't care for the service, but it's nice to see a glimpse of what they're currently working on atm. There hasn't been an update in a few days, which tells <b>me</b> that they're in crunch mode and we'll see something pretty awesome soon.
Personally, I assume to see something the 31st, because that's the kinda guy Flayra is. If nothing happens, I won't be disappointed because I have complete faith the man will bring us one hell of a game.
It's nice to be excited about a game and want to play it, but I don't really think you are ready for an alpha release. If a simple delay can cause you this much stress ... I don't know how you can handle the unfinished content I went through in <b>BETA</b> of NS, let alone an <b>ALPHA</b> release. I think you're expecting a finish product and will be really disapointed once you do get your hands on the alpha.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just arn't releasing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alpha or Development build?
Cause .. you know .. those are like, two different things. Where's a link that says they have a working alpha build?
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1732997:date=Oct 20 2009, 06:01 PM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackpiranha @ Oct 20 2009, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well actually there's a definition missing what the devteam understands in alpha phase i guess.
i may be wrong but people who bought the SE are actually fans of the game and therefore not the "general public". If they don't understand that they will face an incomplete and buggy game but also have the possibility to play and help to improve the game etc. then they should not buy the Special Edition and have a cup of tea.
If you don't want people to test the very early version of a game then you skip the alpha but, as homicide said, why advertise for it then?
Don't be too afraid to roll out an alpha...
*2 cents*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed- at the very least, since supposedly its proprietary stuff, they could put out a performance test level or something... just a single demo space showing off various graphical elements (surfaces, water, shadowing, whatever) properties to ensure that it will be working well and properly. SOMETHING would be nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1732999:date=Oct 20 2009, 03:08 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Oct 20 2009, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed- at the very least, since supposedly its proprietary stuff, they could put out a performance test level or something... just a single demo space showing off various graphical elements (surfaces, water, shadowing, whatever) properties to ensure that it will be working well and properly. SOMETHING would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. Give us anything. I didnt even get an email when I pre-ordered, just paypal saying my money is gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1733000:date=Oct 20 2009, 07:15 PM:name=Landmine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Landmine @ Oct 20 2009, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this. Give us anything. I didnt even get an email when I pre-ordered, just paypal saying my money is gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I recieved an e-mail with my NS2 Key. If you didn't, may want to go <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/help/" target="_blank">here</a>.
I thought it was pretty clear that UWE was short on funding, and that pre-ordering was a way to support development (much like ZOS). They havn't comitted to a date, and are what would be termed "pre-alpha" or "development". Just be patient, or if it's that galling to you, ask politely for a refund.
The new world reserve currency to replace the dollar: Duke Nukem Forever Preorders... $DNFPs. Exchange rate: $DNFP 1000 = $NS2P 1
And isn't an alpha release kind of at odds with the whole kimono-opening philosophy? I don't see how it's going to work, really. Straight to what will essentially be beta looks likely.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1732987:date=Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as I am concerned, when they sold "first access to alpha" they promised to make available early development version of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They sold access to an alpha, no more, no less. You don't get to define what an alpha is. <!--quoteo(post=1732987:date=Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except you are assuming they have a responsibly to fix bugs during the <b>alpha</b>; they don't. That might as well be the defining difference between alpha and beta software. If you were to go download an alpha version of firefox, mysql, php, or any other publicly developed software they are guaranteed to be unusable because core features are still being added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except you're assuming that nothing ever goes wrong and that all of the releases will be stable enough to be useful to the devs the first time every time. Or you're assuming they have the luxury of an ineffective and prolonged alpha and beta. I think those are big assumptions to make. <!--quoteo(post=1732987:date=Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just aren't releasing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless you can provide some proof of this, I'm going to say you're just making stuff up to justify your desire for a release now. Everyone wants a release, but don't spread misinformation to justify yourself. That's not good for any parties involved.
Of course they have "alpha" versions of their own game. When you're developing a game you need in-house test versions.
This is a pet hate of mine, but I'm becoming less and less interested in not only these forums but the NS2 community now. All they do is whine for "their alpha", patience is a virtue.
<!--quoteo(post=1732929:date=Oct 20 2009, 08:59 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take a day or two and setup an automated distribution system? Steamworks has built in beta tools specifically designed for frequent distribution and statistical feedback. If they didn't want all the bells and whitles, it would be trivial (they probably already have it setup) to just batch build and upload weekly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not trivial because people playing those releases won't tolerate things being broken making the game unplayable for days/weeks at a time. Found some exploit that ruins the game but can't be fixed for a while? Good luck getting people to stop using it(hello egg-killing server crash). If you avoid giving them that sort of stuff then you're spending a lot more time maintaining a public version and an internal version. It wouldn't be a fun game and it would get bad word of mouth because of it.
This is silly -- I usually just lurk and don't post, but I have to say something here. Any of you who honestly think that UWE should give access to internal alphas, or even that your own best interests would be served by this in the long run, are delusional. There's a reason why game companies don't release games until they're done -- players don't tolerate glitchy and/or incomplete crap. No matter how much you say "this isn't finished!! This is just an alpha!" there would always be a subset of people who judged the game based on such an unfinished product. You're lucky that UWE is considering a beta testing release AT ALL.
<!--quoteo(post=1733014:date=Oct 21 2009, 01:16 AM:name=cmc5788)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cmc5788 @ Oct 21 2009, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is silly -- I usually just lurk and don't post, but I have to say something here. Any of you who honestly think that UWE should give access to internal alphas, or even that your own best interests would be served by this in the long run, are delusional. There's a reason why game companies don't release games until they're done -- players don't tolerate glitchy and/or incomplete crap. No matter how much you say "this isn't finished!! This is just an alpha!" there would always be a subset of people who judged the game based on such an unfinished product. You're lucky that UWE is considering a beta testing release AT ALL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right! I pre-ordered the SE because of supporting the little team. They talked a little bit about their issues with the money before the pre-order was announced. Some one told them to set up a donation system or a pre-order to rise their economy. I will assume that the Pre-Order has something to do with this.
I purchased three copies of the game in case I get bored of the previous one. :P
Edit: Actually, the other ones weren't for me... ='(
sadly i believed that there was a chance that there would be a Beta this year, which still might happen, but because i am a one game at a time guy i will probably be asking for money back. this isnt UW fault. it just borderlands is coming out then starcraft next year then diablo.. so unless they can squeeze it between one of those big games im just not going to play it.
If UWE was really so cash-strapped that they needed the pre-orders in order to operate why didn't they just open a second Constellation type group that would be used to fund development for NS2? If people could raise a few thousand dollars to fly Gabe Newell to Australia then why not do the same thing for a game's development? I would have done that easily for 3D Realms even with no repayment guarantee.
Comments
It's not ready yet. If it were, you'd be playing it. I don't know what you expect them to do. They're busy working on the game.
It will be done when it is done.
How come?
Everyone is asking the devs for some pronounce about a possible delay.
Is it hard to say "we'll have to delay for more X months" or "we'll keep the release date"?
I don't know how closely you have been following the development updates but if you read the tweets it is pretty clear that development has a long way to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1732920:date=Oct 20 2009, 07:26 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Oct 20 2009, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything I'd guess at the alpha likely being beta and beta being balance patching or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By definition of the word, whatever they release to the people who pre-ordered is a beta.
And having an alpha and beta period only taking a combined total of 4 months sounds like a pretty amazing feat to me. Just look below at how long it took NS v3.0 Final to come out, and that was with a game that had already been "Final" for a only just a week shorter than a year. It's development period was a total of <a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=10&d1=23&y1=2003&m2=3&d2=5&y2=2005&ti=on" target="_blank">500 days</a>. Ouch.
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2003" target="_blank">2003</a>)
10/23/2003: NS v2.1 Beta expands to Constellation
11/26/2003: Version update and news (v2.1 renamed to v3.0)
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2004" target="_blank">2004</a>)
1/24/2004: NS v3.0 beta 1 released!
1/30/2004: NS v3.0 beta 2 released!
2/10/2004: NS v3.0 beta 3 released!
4/23/2004: Beta 4 released!
5/1/2004: Beta 4a released!
11/20/2004: Beta 5 released!
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/news/2005" target="_blank">2005</a>)
1/9/2005: Constellation beta coming!
1/31/2005: Constellation Testbuild 2 released
2/11/2005: Constellation pre-build 3 released
2/20/2005: Constellation pre-build 4 released
3/5/2005: NS v3.0 released!
Not good enough. At my time of purchasing NS2, i was given an alpha release date. The alpha is still nowhere to be seen. That alone is grounds for a refund.
And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious. I expected at least some semblance of a product by now, and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed. The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.
And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious. I expected at least some semblance of a product by now, and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed. The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you read something I did not but it is my understanding that a preorder means you get it when it ships. I've not seen anywhere that says a preorder guarantees a specific date.
I wasn't talking about the config so much as the pace change. They'd have to go from adding features to adding features and fixing bugs weekly. Lose two days to a couple bad bugs, and a speedy release schedule there will be bugs, and you're all ready looking at a half-effective release with another deadline coming up in a couple days. I was on a project doing near daily releases for a while and let me tell you, the product was not the better for it, even with all the direct feedback from the client. We're on two-week release schedules now and the output is about the same while the product is 10 times more stable. No, they should get the game to a relatively stable point before releasing so it will continuously improve over the iterative process. That will reflect better on the devs, be more enjoyable for the testers, and allow the testers to provide much more valuable information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you are assuming they have a responsibly to fix bugs during the <b>alpha</b>; they don't. That might as well be the defining difference between alpha and beta software. If you were to go download an alpha version of firefox, mysql, php, or any other publicly developed software they are guaranteed to be unusable because core features are still being added. They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just arn't releasing them.
As far as I am concerned, when they sold "first access to alpha" they promised to make available early development version of the game.
Then they turn around and post,
<!--quoteo(post=1727823:date=Sep 17 2009, 10:49 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 17 2009, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1727823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as people love to say how they want to see anything from the actual game, the average public is not discerning enough to be able to separate what is still in a stand in and unfinished form from how the final game is going to look. Trust me, having worked at various companies for years, a game in the development process is not a pretty thing to look at, and you'd be surprised how much actually comes together right at the very end.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WELL TOO ###### BAD, you already SOLD access to see the unfinished form.
Start releasing weekly development builds, as simple as that.
Best version of NS ever created ^^^
If they released the NS 3.0 beta 5 for NS2 alpha, I would pre order just to play some games on that again version again.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107200&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...107200&st=0</a>
Unfortuntely, the kids in the community will continue to flame those of us that feel a bit used for our pre-orders. They're valid concerns:
<ul><li>Pre-orders are typically made available near some sort of release (alpha, beta, final). We're talking within 30 days, not a year.</li><li>We were mis-lead to believe that NS2 was much further along than it was when pre-orders were announced.</li><li>For a game that has been in design and development for years, it's disconcerning to see much of the gameplay elements and designs up for discussion after pre-orders. It's like the game didn't start production until the pre-orders were announced. </li><li>Pre-ordering usually is for a game that is nearing complete, yet it feels like pre-orders are being applied to the actual development of the game with a moving target for a release date.</li><li>Official statements pertaining to release dates in the past have been largely BS defensive comments that seem more like additional smoke screens than actually caring about how we're actually feeling about being let down about this whole pre-order process.</li><li>In the end, we just want the truth, no more fluff, no more smoke-screens, no more delays. I don't want to hear that models were developed a year ago, and are just being shown to us little by little, when it doesn't take mutch to put the pieces together from the news posts and twitter posts that much of the game is still in development.</li><li>It's been months of pre-order dollars, discussions over features and such, why isn't there a sold date for at least the alpha? "Coming soon" for every little thing promised for money we already paid is just more BS thrown at the wall with every passing month.</li><li>Just give us the truth, we already gave you $, it's the least you can provide.</li></ul>
For the rest of you kids... flame away idc.... I pre-purchased 2 copies when it was announced and the further away we get from that pre-order, the further my trust dwindles in UW. Personally, if nothing surfaces by November 1st, I'll be requesting a full refund and never pre-order anything from UW in the future. Pre-ordering is one thing, but funding development as a minor investor with no return is a waste of money and time.
I believe some people still have <a href="http://pc.ign.com/articles/761/761329p1.html" target="_blank">pre-orders for Duke Nukem Forever</a> :D
Yeah I think I should have access to the Alpha (realizing it is unplayable) per the pre-order details but I'm not going to throw a fit if they don't deliver 'on time'. I've had way better experiences with delayed products that were finished than rushed releases that were unplayable due to bugs until the first few patches. I'm still hoping for a Halloween alpha release.
i may be wrong but people who bought the SE are actually fans of the game and therefore not the "general public". If they don't understand that they will face an incomplete and buggy game and will be testers providing feedback then they should not buy the Special Edition and have a cup of tea.
If you don't want people to test the very early version of a game then you skip the alpha but, as homicide said, why advertise for it then?
Don't be too afraid to roll out an alpha.
*2 cents*
You've never preordered a game that was delayed? Ever? Things happen that unfortunately, cause delays. Screaming and throwing a fit on the forums isn't going to change the fact that its not ready.
I find the response "Just <b>tell</b> us its delayed!" ridiculous, because it won't matter. Not only does it set the president that someone from the company will need to come to the forums to address every single issue or delay, it's redundant. If it was ready, you would be playing it. Since you are not, it is not ready. Do you really need one of the Dev to tell you something that should be quite obvious?
This company doesn't have the man power or availability to monitor the forums and respond to every person throwing a fit. It's like ... 4 people. So, again ... what is it you are expecting them to do? Come to the forums and say something that is completely obvious? Do you think they <b>want</b> to miss their expected release date? Perhaps all the stuff released so far was just an elaborate hoax, with the only intent of screwing you out of your $40? Drop a bunch of code into your lap and say "have fun"?
It's not ready. No amount of screaming or whining or ###### or threatening to get a refund will change that fact. I was chosen as a beta tester for NS quite early in its life and this ###### just takes time. I can't tell you how long it took just to get a playable Onos into the game. Relax a little bit.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as for the "it'll be done when it's done", don't keep regurgitating that line over and over. It is extremely condescending quite frankly obnoxious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not obnoxious, it's just the truth. No amount of temper tantrum will change it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I expected at least some semblance of a product by now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps your expectations are set quite a bit too high. The game is not even in ALPHA status yet. Yes, they set the target release at Fall 09 - which isn't even over yet, but ###### happens and they're still working on it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and as a paying customer I'm damn rightly pissed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You preordered a game that isn't released yet. Not sure what to tell you, "###### happens"? You'd prefer just an executable that loads a menu or .. what? If its not playable, its not playable. Are you playing it now? No? Then its not playable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The developers have done this whole "silence is golden" thing before, and look where that got them. People, including myself will start demanding their cash back if some news isn't posted. We deserve more regular updates at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are currently <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/about" target="_blank"><b>four</b> people</a> that work at UWE. Personally, I'd prefer they spent their time actually making the game, which I have full confidence they are doing, rather than spend time updating their website. You think they are just sitting around a table, counting all the money from the idiots they fooled online?
They update us consistently, more than any other dev I've seen in quite a while, through Twitter. I personally don't care for the service, but it's nice to see a glimpse of what they're currently working on atm. There hasn't been an update in a few days, which tells <b>me</b> that they're in crunch mode and we'll see something pretty awesome soon.
Personally, I assume to see something the 31st, because that's the kinda guy Flayra is. If nothing happens, I won't be disappointed because I have complete faith the man will bring us one hell of a game.
It's nice to be excited about a game and want to play it, but I don't really think you are ready for an alpha release. If a simple delay can cause you this much stress ... I don't know how you can handle the unfinished content I went through in <b>BETA</b> of NS, let alone an <b>ALPHA</b> release. I think you're expecting a finish product and will be really disapointed once you do get your hands on the alpha.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just arn't releasing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alpha or Development build?
Cause .. you know .. those are like, two different things. Where's a link that says they have a working alpha build?
i may be wrong but people who bought the SE are actually fans of the game and therefore not the "general public". If they don't understand that they will face an incomplete and buggy game but also have the possibility to play and help to improve the game etc. then they should not buy the Special Edition and have a cup of tea.
If you don't want people to test the very early version of a game then you skip the alpha but, as homicide said, why advertise for it then?
Don't be too afraid to roll out an alpha...
*2 cents*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed- at the very least, since supposedly its proprietary stuff, they could put out a performance test level or something... just a single demo space showing off various graphical elements (surfaces, water, shadowing, whatever) properties to ensure that it will be working well and properly. SOMETHING would be nice.
I agree with this. Give us anything. I didnt even get an email when I pre-ordered, just paypal saying my money is gone.
I recieved an e-mail with my NS2 Key. If you didn't, may want to go <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/help/" target="_blank">here</a>.
They havn't comitted to a date, and are what would be termed "pre-alpha" or "development". Just be patient, or if it's that galling to you, ask politely for a refund.
Exchange rate: $DNFP 1000 = $NS2P 1
And isn't an alpha release kind of at odds with the whole kimono-opening philosophy? I don't see how it's going to work, really. Straight to what will essentially be beta looks likely.
They sold access to an alpha, no more, no less. You don't get to define what an alpha is.
<!--quoteo(post=1732987:date=Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except you are assuming they have a responsibly to fix bugs during the <b>alpha</b>; they don't. That might as well be the defining difference between alpha and beta software. If you were to go download an alpha version of firefox, mysql, php, or any other publicly developed software they are guaranteed to be unusable because core features are still being added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you're assuming that nothing ever goes wrong and that all of the releases will be stable enough to be useful to the devs the first time every time. Or you're assuming they have the luxury of an ineffective and prolonged alpha and beta. I think those are big assumptions to make.
<!--quoteo(post=1732987:date=Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 20 2009, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They already have alpha versions of NS2, they just aren't releasing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you can provide some proof of this, I'm going to say you're just making stuff up to justify your desire for a release now. Everyone wants a release, but don't spread misinformation to justify yourself. That's not good for any parties involved.
This is a pet hate of mine, but I'm becoming less and less interested in not only these forums but the NS2 community now. All they do is whine for "their alpha", patience is a virtue.
Steamworks has built in beta tools specifically designed for frequent distribution and statistical feedback. If they didn't want all the bells and whitles, it would be trivial (they probably already have it setup) to just batch build and upload weekly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not trivial because people playing those releases won't tolerate things being broken making the game unplayable for days/weeks at a time. Found some exploit that ruins the game but can't be fixed for a while? Good luck getting people to stop using it(hello egg-killing server crash). If you avoid giving them that sort of stuff then you're spending a lot more time maintaining a public version and an internal version. It wouldn't be a fun game and it would get bad word of mouth because of it.
Your right! I pre-ordered the SE because of supporting the little team. They talked a little bit about their issues with the money before the pre-order was announced. Some one told them to set up a donation system or a pre-order to rise their economy. I will assume that the Pre-Order has something to do with this.
I purchased three copies of the game in case I get bored of the previous one. :P
Edit: Actually, the other ones weren't for me... ='(
we will see what happens.
GL to all the $40 investors