<!--quoteo(post=1733324:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:19 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 22 2009, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A.) I've every right to be pissed. Everything i've read, seen, and watched has lead me to believe that the SDLC only started after the preorders had been made.
B.) YES, i FULLY expect a team of 4 people to come to the forums and post updates on the status of <b><i>MY</b></i> fully paid for game. 2 minutes out of their day will not kill a coder to make a small update to let us know how thing's are going.
C.) fall 2009, thats the date hammered down. Sure, it's not winter yet, but he's got what, a week to pull this ###### out of the bag? I've been playing NS for a good amount of years and i know how UWE operates. Only this time i've got money on the table, and i damn well expect better service than this. I dont care that they only have 4 guys or whatever, i paid my hard earned cash and i deserve answers. You playing devil's advocate for them just makes them look weaker, too. They should either appoint a community lead to handle stuff like this, or come on here and talk to us, and reassure us about the game's status. We deserve this as paying customers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Appoint a community lead? I think the forum moderators and those of us in the community that have a sense of reality do well at that. If you want a 'lead' point of view take it from me, you do not own the game and you entered in to a consumer agreement, below is my interpretation.
The consumer agreement around pre-ordering goods and services are like every consumer law around long distance selling, shady. Thus far UWE have upheld their end of the bargain, they have not given a firm release date which leaves it even shadier from a legal point of view. What that means for you is, the most you can do is ask for your money back, legally you don't have a leg to stand on unless the game is never released.
Before you mention they said Fall 2009 as an estimate, they sure did. How ever it is an estimate you as the consumer are aware of, which you willingly entered in to. If UWE were to delay their game and give you another estimate they are able to do so, again refunding money at their own discretion. So it will be a never ending circle for both parties, if you're not happy under consumer law you can apply for a refund but UWE are not obliged to do so.
You only have the right to apply that you want a refund or register any unhappiness under law when the other side have not upheld their end of the bargain, which so far the development team is doing.
^ If anyone can add, distinguish or set me straight on things go for it, I'm not the best on U.S. consumer law being from England although it is very similar to our own.
U.S. Consumer Protection laws vary by state. California has some of the stronger ones, which is where UWE is located. Trust me that from a legal standpoint the last thing UWE wants to do is deny refunds to people on a product that doesn't ship if they preordered based on a "Fall 2009" that is pretty clearly stated even still on the website. Doing that would get all sorts of people involved on the levels of State, Federal, and possibly even the Better Business Bureau.
For example: I go to school in London, Ontario. I live in Greenwich, Connecticut.
If my request was denied and I feel wronged by that I can apply to Ontario's consumer protection agency, Connecticut's consumer protection agency, the U.S. consumer protection agency, the Canadian consumer protection agency, and the BBB for both countries. I can also file in California because UWE's location is there.
It's best for UWE to simply update projected releases, because not doing so creates far more problems from a business and legal standpoint regardless of location. The contractual obligation for a company to deliver goods on time is pretty strong and I can't see any court taking UWE's side if they don't update their info. The best thing to do is both accept refund requests and to update customers on the game's status before the end of fall - defined by UWE as Nov 30th. Even with a stated delay you still wouldn't want to deny a refund request because the customer still has a very strong stance that they can back out because the initial contract is not being upheld on a time based argument even with the argument on merit side that the company still has the intenet to fulfill the contract under extended time. Either way, the safest bet is an update on projected release and to accept any refunds as I've already said.
<!--quoteo(post=1733448:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:40 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reading this thread gives me the strange sensation of watching a snake eat its own tail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not much else to feed on at this point :)
Of course this is going to be a circular discussion, the information people are basing their arguments on hasn't changed since when? It hasn't changed since the Teaser Trailer. People can't really use autobite or the anatomy of a scene to argue their stance on preorders.
EDIT: I would worry more that this is a recurring problem with customers because that's an indication of customer satisfaction not being as high as it should in anticipation of a game's release. Not a good situation.
This is ridiculous. Some of you are acting like immature kids, how long have you been a gamer for and how often do you hear of delays? Games take time and they're often delayed. How is UWE different? The developers have been VERY respectful from what I've seen and they're definitely out on a limb here as they need the game to perform well to likely keep their status as a game company. And now some of the player base is grumbling and murmuring against them? For what?! Because they figured some time before that they could likely release the game for Fall of '09 and now it happens like it does quite often to ambitious game projects where it's realized coding and developing will take longer than it was thought before. What kind of friend are you to the UWE development team? I thought this was a community supporting their favored mod team as they make NS2? This is despicable, even as a costumer you should have more sense than this.
<!--quoteo(post=1733483:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:58 PM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Oct 22 2009, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly, people need to go outside every once in a while...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? No way! It's way too cold for them now! I mean, it's Fall! Let's all stay inside to wait for what was promised to us for Fall!!
Seriously though, I think this thread clearly shows an alarming social problem; the fact that some people don't even seem to know basic stuff like when a season begins/ends. Is this what the world has come to?
<!--quoteo(post=1733498:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:59 PM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ Oct 22 2009, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously though, I think this thread clearly shows an alarming social problem; the fact that some people don't even seem to know basic stuff like when a season begins/ends. Is this what the world has come to?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a Quebecois you should probably know best of everybody here that fall is different everywhere. Hell, it's spring in the southern hemisphere right now. Here in London, Ontario we've already had snow twice and it's not even Halloween yet. UWE randomly defined Fall as ending in November 30th for whatever reason, maybe it's that way in California.
<!--quoteo(post=1733502:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:17 PM:name=RikkAndrsn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RikkAndrsn @ Oct 22 2009, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a Quebecois you should probably know best of everybody here that fall is different everywhere. Hell, it's spring in the southern hemisphere right now. Here in London, Ontario we've already had snow twice and it's not even Halloween yet. UWE randomly defined Fall as ending in November 30th for whatever reason, maybe it's that way in California.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> UWE randomly defined fall as November 30th?
Well they got lucky because the calender says fall ends on November 30th too! <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1733516:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I come from an all year round tropical country. So you can't really blame me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure can, if you don't have seasons for a reference in your area you could simply google them so you know what they are.
<!--quoteo(post=1733516:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:48 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Oct 22 2009, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I come from an all year round tropical country. So you can't really blame me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See, this guy knows no fall. It doesn't even exist to him. Welcome to relative existence, you should probably get used to it. A meteorological defenition isn't really that applicable in a gaming sense, which is why most companies use the fiscal year to plot out game releases. Ever heard of Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4 of a year? Pretty efficient system, removes any doubt about definition because of the whole "12 months can be divided by 4 evenly" deal.
I think most of you are missing the point though. You're so wrapped up into this whole "fall" date or legal symantics and my complaint isn't even any of those. This thread seems to just keep blowing up (like the ones before), yet where is an official response from the team? In prior threads, the only response I saw was some defensive BS stating that most of the game was done a year ago, yet completely contradictory of what we've seen in the news and twitter comments.
We put up a money investment into this game, the least we could expect back is some sort of report on the progress. Treat the community like investors, and it'll be even more understanding and quite possibly open to invest more. There are many open ended promises with "soon" attached, yet this is becoming as relative as Valve's "soon", which is absolutely horrid imo. I could care less if the office is cold, or the coffee is good. Tell me if this game I invested in is delayed, if so, are we looking at 3 months, 6 monts... or are we looking at Duke Nukem Forever long (something they won't admit to).
Alpha is going to be very rough, most of us understand this. We're not expecting a lot of polish or beta, just *something* to sink our teeth into and possibly start working on mod and map ideas. It's just that the further Alpha is from releasing to pre-orders without any reason, the lower my confidence gets with respect to UWE as a company to deliver. In fact, the more I feel that my invested money is being wasted away, something that really sux in today's economy. Not to mention all that wonderful technology they invested into for the past few years is aging every day.
Yes, I have other games consuming my time, like Aion. So, it's not like I'm sitting here bored. I'm just not very pleased with the principals behind the whole pre-orders, followed by the greedy looking photo of them holding the money, and then absolute silence on anything solid with the release.
We all want to see NS2 developed and done right, released when ready. I for one, don't want to feel abused and run over in the process. UWE, just be open and honest with us.... not too hard to ask.
Sum's it up pretty much. If none of us had paid a red cent, and we were just moaning waiting for the alpha, yes, i could easily understand all these people defending UWE and their tactic's. But we paid our cold, hard cash for something we have not been delivered.
I used to work in a fruit and veg company, delivering fresh good's to catering kitchens. If even one delivery of the hundreds delivered was late, even a couple of minutes, we would have chef's on the phone to us giving out holy hell. What UWE is getting from the community at the moment is nothing to what i used to get on the phone from a pissed off chef. So can the apologist's stop trying to make out like we're calling for UWE to be crucified, because we're not. we're just getting impatient after, what, 6 months of nothing but a few renders and some models?
Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?
Glad i only ordered the standard version... imagine if you ordered a $40 game online (because you found it cheap somewhere and it'd normally be about $60), and at some point UPS did nothing but perpetually forget to deliver your package. Ya that's what i predict waiting for NS2 is like for people that ordered the black armor edition.
I can definitely see both points: One being that "I've pre-ordered + it is coming very close to this deadline. With this, not even something resembling gameplay footage or how far along development is (percentage or breakdown of what is done/not done) or even a notice saying 'We are on track!', 'We are slightly behind', or even 'We bit off more than we can chew, we'll probably have to postpone x months after this Fall release' has come to light."
The other side being along the lines of "Without the pre-order money, it would be harder to hire new development crew/freelancers/mocap/whatever people and it would take longer to develop with less funds..." Hence all of the defense for UWE about their decision for pre-orders and the incentive behind it. The other strong argument on this side possibly being "Delays happen to many games whether they are warranted [newer tech, things pop up that are wanted to add, crazy bugs to fix, whatever]" but this results back to the response of "Can't we even just get a Dev response about what's happening?" thing.
hmm, I may be missing more for the defense side, but I have been up nearly 3 days and pumped with much coffee, so my memory has been foggy the last 24 hours.
Anyway, can't both sides of this argument agree that the sense and thought-processes can be based on different perspectives and mindsets for everyone? Whether it is "I paid and I want info!" extreme to the closer middles of "I'd just like a word here and there about how far development is" and "possible delay, it's done when it's done" to the opposite extreme of "A lot of hardcore fans pre-ordered for their sequel as well as for the amount of fun times they had in NS"?
Everyone has their own rationale behind things, especially when they spend money on it (be it theirs or as questioned, a parents or significant others').
To me, it just makes no sense debate-wise to continue with the same points on and on. Perhaps for some it is a method of wasting time awaiting this "expected date". Perhaps I've just written complete nonsense and don't know what I'm talking about. To me, I pre-ordered because at the time of donations/constie memberships and the such, I couldn't afford even a couple of bucks due to money being so tight so I felt contributing now with the pre-orders out would be my way of saying "thank you" (and as at least one Dev knows, I sure have loved NS a lot! ;D).
I dunno, trying to outline all of this in my head and writing it out has helped but I'm still in the dark as to why people feel the way they do. Hopefully I can be corrected on some things and as such be brought to a grander understanding of this whole thread and hopefully others as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1733635:date=Oct 23 2009, 06:38 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 23 2009, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.
You're correct Wiz.... in the end, both sides of the coin will agree that we just want an honest and realistic update from the dev team. Even the most recent twitter posts just tell us that the game is still in design. They still have questions and going over possible solutions. This is what's concerning me. No project plan, no project timeline, ..... etc.... I mean, a recipie that has been seen in way too many project failures. Will they even have $ to reimburse people? I'm sure the investors will get their share long before the pre-orders. Is the project leader/manager really experienced at this, or just a friend? Even in an agile development cycle, there's more solidity in the project and even deadlines that can be easily obtained.
Come January, and things continue as they are, this project will look very very scary.
I know this is a blanket statement, but I get the gut feeling that the people who complain about the game being late and demand that they release it ASAP don't actually care about NS2. I paid my $40 dollars because I wanted a great game, not a ###### game NOW. Which means that if they end up releasing the game early and unfinished because of all the whiner fans, it actually makes me feel more let down for my money because thats not why I paid $40.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733657:date=Oct 23 2009, 11:12 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 23 2009, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Also pre-ordered the special edition from my own pocket and also bought a copy for a friend. Most of the members on this forum are college age or later so I doubt that's very uncommon of those who paid. Not that it matters if they "paid from daddy's pocket", it's not like "money from daddy's pocket" is infinite and/or has no value.
As for why, NS2 is one of the last games I'm looking forward to without reservations. Blizzard has pulled some business moves lately that have made me question whether I'm actually going to buy SC2 and Diablo3. I probably will because they look like good games and all my friends will probably be playing them, but it used to not even be a question. I'm excited for HL3 and Portal2, but those are still a long ways away.
As for "giving us nothing" they've fed us plenty of information about the game, certainly more than any big name AAA developers I can think of. Delays happen <i>all the time</i>. Literally all the time. There are few worthwhile games that I can think of that <i>weren't</i> delayed at some point, and even then it may be that I just didn't follow their development as much.
I would <i>much</i> rather hear about a delay sooner rather than later. But, I've preordered enough games to not feel <i>entitled</i> to a release exactly when the first date is set. An explanation for the delay yes, but not an unfinished game. I'd rather see a decent game later then get a buggy piece of crap on time. If I wanted that I'd buy more EA games.
<!--quoteo(post=1733657:date=Oct 23 2009, 10:12 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 23 2009, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1733657:date=Oct 23 2009, 11:12 AM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 23 2009, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same answer for me, and my Constellation donation was also paid with my money a few years back. Just supporting devs who brought us a great game and are surely going to do so with NS2 too.
<!--quoteo(post=1733635:date=Oct 23 2009, 07:38 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 23 2009, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?
Yes?
Ok, ill be right over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I paid for it with my own money (I'm even married and have a kid) because I know the ultimate product will have high quality, will be supported and will most likely be fun for several years like the original. Paying ahead of time knowing that there was no specific release date (and season estimates are usually wrong anyway) I was fully aware that the game mine not be available as advertised. I defend them because people are saying that they haven't delivered when they still have 5 weeks left before the end of fall, no hard date was given and past, and video games are always either delayed or crap on release if rushed to meet a deadline.
Having been around a lot of years playing games this is to be expected because as games become more and more complex there are always bugs that crop up late in the game. If they released early models, then later updated them to a different standard everyone would be ###### that they released something different than advertised if they like the first one.
UWE has not yet failed on their fall release time frame (that would be the end of November) so whining about not having the game now is wrong and not comparable to taking your money. Try again in December.
<!--quoteo(post=1733635:date=Oct 23 2009, 10:38 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Oct 23 2009, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I paid $40 from my own pocket, R$85 in local currency (Brazil), which is <b>MUCH</b> more expensive than $40 for USA/Europe citizens wallets.
I defend UWE out of loyalty, sympathy and comprehension. My $40 feel like an investment, not a simple purchase. Im investing in UWE and in return I get a great game.
<!--quoteo(post=1733657:date=Oct 23 2009, 12:12 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 23 2009, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded.
Sum's it up pretty much. If none of us had paid a red cent, and we were just moaning waiting for the alpha, yes, i could easily understand all these people defending UWE and their tactic's. But we paid our cold, hard cash for something we have not been delivered.
I used to work in a fruit and veg company, delivering fresh good's to catering kitchens. If even one delivery of the hundreds delivered was late, even a couple of minutes, we would have chef's on the phone to us giving out holy hell. What UWE is getting from the community at the moment is nothing to what i used to get on the phone from a pissed off chef. So can the apologist's stop trying to make out like we're calling for UWE to be crucified, because we're not. we're just getting impatient after, what, 6 months of nothing but a few renders and some models?
Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?
Yes?
Ok, ill be right over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fruit and vegetable deliveries to chef's are completely irrelevant to a computer game delivery. Your analogies and thesis over a computer game that you have pre-ordered being late are illogical, irrational and absurd. Without actually insulting you, I suggest you get a hobby and wait, you're one of the people this community doesn't need.
Comments
But well if anyone can't wait demand your money back and preorder Starcraft 2 then xD
B.) YES, i FULLY expect a team of 4 people to come to the forums and post updates on the status of <b><i>MY</b></i> fully paid for game. 2 minutes out of their day will not kill a coder to make a small update to let us know how thing's are going.
C.) fall 2009, thats the date hammered down. Sure, it's not winter yet, but he's got what, a week to pull this ###### out of the bag? I've been playing NS for a good amount of years and i know how UWE operates. Only this time i've got money on the table, and i damn well expect better service than this. I dont care that they only have 4 guys or whatever, i paid my hard earned cash and i deserve answers. You playing devil's advocate for them just makes them look weaker, too. They should either appoint a community lead to handle stuff like this, or come on here and talk to us, and reassure us about the game's status. We deserve this as paying customers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Appoint a community lead? I think the forum moderators and those of us in the community that have a sense of reality do well at that. If you want a 'lead' point of view take it from me, you do not own the game and you entered in to a consumer agreement, below is my interpretation.
The consumer agreement around pre-ordering goods and services are like every consumer law around long distance selling, shady. Thus far UWE have upheld their end of the bargain, they have not given a firm release date which leaves it even shadier from a legal point of view. What that means for you is, the most you can do is ask for your money back, legally you don't have a leg to stand on unless the game is never released.
Before you mention they said Fall 2009 as an estimate, they sure did. How ever it is an estimate you as the consumer are aware of, which you willingly entered in to. If UWE were to delay their game and give you another estimate they are able to do so, again refunding money at their own discretion. So it will be a never ending circle for both parties, if you're not happy under consumer law you can apply for a refund but UWE are not obliged to do so.
You only have the right to apply that you want a refund or register any unhappiness under law when the other side have not upheld their end of the bargain, which so far the development team is doing.
^ If anyone can add, distinguish or set me straight on things go for it, I'm not the best on U.S. consumer law being from England although it is very similar to our own.
I personally think they'll have a rough time making that, but we'll see. The work left could be comsmetic or tweeks...
For example:
I go to school in London, Ontario.
I live in Greenwich, Connecticut.
If my request was denied and I feel wronged by that I can apply to Ontario's consumer protection agency, Connecticut's consumer protection agency, the U.S. consumer protection agency, the Canadian consumer protection agency, and the BBB for both countries. I can also file in California because UWE's location is there.
It's best for UWE to simply update projected releases, because not doing so creates far more problems from a business and legal standpoint regardless of location. The contractual obligation for a company to deliver goods on time is pretty strong and I can't see any court taking UWE's side if they don't update their info. The best thing to do is both accept refund requests and to update customers on the game's status before the end of fall - defined by UWE as Nov 30th. Even with a stated delay you still wouldn't want to deny a refund request because the customer still has a very strong stance that they can back out because the initial contract is not being upheld on a time based argument even with the argument on merit side that the company still has the intenet to fulfill the contract under extended time. Either way, the safest bet is an update on projected release and to accept any refunds as I've already said.
Not much else to feed on at this point :)
EDIT: I would worry more that this is a recurring problem with customers because that's an indication of customer satisfaction not being as high as it should in anticipation of a game's release. Not a good situation.
Exactly, people need to go outside every once in a while...
What? No way! It's way too cold for them now! I mean, it's Fall! Let's all stay inside to wait for what was promised to us for Fall!!
Seriously though, I think this thread clearly shows an alarming social problem; the fact that some people don't even seem to know basic stuff like when a season begins/ends. Is this what the world has come to?
As a Quebecois you should probably know best of everybody here that fall is different everywhere. Hell, it's spring in the southern hemisphere right now. Here in London, Ontario we've already had snow twice and it's not even Halloween yet. UWE randomly defined Fall as ending in November 30th for whatever reason, maybe it's that way in California.
UWE randomly defined fall as November 30th?
Well they got lucky because the calender says fall ends on November 30th too!
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn</a>
Sure can, if you don't have seasons for a reference in your area you could simply google them so you know what they are.
See, this guy knows no fall. It doesn't even exist to him. Welcome to relative existence, you should probably get used to it. A meteorological defenition isn't really that applicable in a gaming sense, which is why most companies use the fiscal year to plot out game releases. Ever heard of Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4 of a year? Pretty efficient system, removes any doubt about definition because of the whole "12 months can be divided by 4 evenly" deal.
We put up a money investment into this game, the least we could expect back is some sort of report on the progress. Treat the community like investors, and it'll be even more understanding and quite possibly open to invest more. There are many open ended promises with "soon" attached, yet this is becoming as relative as Valve's "soon", which is absolutely horrid imo. I could care less if the office is cold, or the coffee is good. Tell me if this game I invested in is delayed, if so, are we looking at 3 months, 6 monts... or are we looking at Duke Nukem Forever long (something they won't admit to).
Alpha is going to be very rough, most of us understand this. We're not expecting a lot of polish or beta, just *something* to sink our teeth into and possibly start working on mod and map ideas. It's just that the further Alpha is from releasing to pre-orders without any reason, the lower my confidence gets with respect to UWE as a company to deliver. In fact, the more I feel that my invested money is being wasted away, something that really sux in today's economy. Not to mention all that wonderful technology they invested into for the past few years is aging every day.
Yes, I have other games consuming my time, like Aion. So, it's not like I'm sitting here bored. I'm just not very pleased with the principals behind the whole pre-orders, followed by the greedy looking photo of them holding the money, and then absolute silence on anything solid with the release.
We all want to see NS2 developed and done right, released when ready. I for one, don't want to feel abused and run over in the process. UWE, just be open and honest with us.... not too hard to ask.
Sum's it up pretty much. If none of us had paid a red cent, and we were just moaning waiting for the alpha, yes, i could easily understand all these people defending UWE and their tactic's. But we paid our cold, hard cash for something we have not been delivered.
I used to work in a fruit and veg company, delivering fresh good's to catering kitchens. If even one delivery of the hundreds delivered was late, even a couple of minutes, we would have chef's on the phone to us giving out holy hell. What UWE is getting from the community at the moment is nothing to what i used to get on the phone from a pissed off chef. So can the apologist's stop trying to make out like we're calling for UWE to be crucified, because we're not. we're just getting impatient after, what, 6 months of nothing but a few renders and some models?
Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?
Yes?
Ok, ill be right over.
<img src="http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/9e/Arguecat.PNG" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The other side being along the lines of "Without the pre-order money, it would be harder to hire new development crew/freelancers/mocap/whatever people and it would take longer to develop with less funds..." Hence all of the defense for UWE about their decision for pre-orders and the incentive behind it. The other strong argument on this side possibly being "Delays happen to many games whether they are warranted [newer tech, things pop up that are wanted to add, crazy bugs to fix, whatever]" but this results back to the response of "Can't we even just get a Dev response about what's happening?" thing.
hmm, I may be missing more for the defense side, but I have been up nearly 3 days and pumped with much coffee, so my memory has been foggy the last 24 hours.
Anyway, can't both sides of this argument agree that the sense and thought-processes can be based on different perspectives and mindsets for everyone? Whether it is "I paid and I want info!" extreme to the closer middles of "I'd just like a word here and there about how far development is" and "possible delay, it's done when it's done" to the opposite extreme of "A lot of hardcore fans pre-ordered for their sequel as well as for the amount of fun times they had in NS"?
Everyone has their own rationale behind things, especially when they spend money on it (be it theirs or as questioned, a parents or significant others').
To me, it just makes no sense debate-wise to continue with the same points on and on. Perhaps for some it is a method of wasting time awaiting this "expected date". Perhaps I've just written complete nonsense and don't know what I'm talking about. To me, I pre-ordered because at the time of donations/constie memberships and the such, I couldn't afford even a couple of bucks due to money being so tight so I felt contributing now with the pre-orders out would be my way of saying "thank you" (and as at least one Dev knows, I sure have loved NS a lot! ;D).
I dunno, trying to outline all of this in my head and writing it out has helped but I'm still in the dark as to why people feel the way they do. Hopefully I can be corrected on some things and as such be brought to a grander understanding of this whole thread and hopefully others as well.
I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.
Come January, and things continue as they are, this project will look very very scary.
+1 Also pre-ordered the special edition from my own pocket and also bought a copy for a friend. Most of the members on this forum are college age or later so I doubt that's very uncommon of those who paid. Not that it matters if they "paid from daddy's pocket", it's not like "money from daddy's pocket" is infinite and/or has no value.
As for why, NS2 is one of the last games I'm looking forward to without reservations. Blizzard has pulled some business moves lately that have made me question whether I'm actually going to buy SC2 and Diablo3. I probably will because they look like good games and all my friends will probably be playing them, but it used to not even be a question. I'm excited for HL3 and Portal2, but those are still a long ways away.
As for "giving us nothing" they've fed us plenty of information about the game, certainly more than any big name AAA developers I can think of. Delays happen <i>all the time</i>. Literally all the time. There are few worthwhile games that I can think of that <i>weren't</i> delayed at some point, and even then it may be that I just didn't follow their development as much.
I would <i>much</i> rather hear about a delay sooner rather than later. But, I've preordered enough games to not feel <i>entitled</i> to a release exactly when the first date is set. An explanation for the delay yes, but not an unfinished game. I'd rather see a decent game later then get a buggy piece of crap on time. If I wanted that I'd buy more EA games.
true. true!
Same answer for me, and my Constellation donation was also paid with my money a few years back. Just supporting devs who brought us a great game and are surely going to do so with NS2 too.
Yes?
Ok, ill be right over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I paid for it with my own money (I'm even married and have a kid) because I know the ultimate product will have high quality, will be supported and will most likely be fun for several years like the original. Paying ahead of time knowing that there was no specific release date (and season estimates are usually wrong anyway) I was fully aware that the game mine not be available as advertised. I defend them because people are saying that they haven't delivered when they still have 5 weeks left before the end of fall, no hard date was given and past, and video games are always either delayed or crap on release if rushed to meet a deadline.
Having been around a lot of years playing games this is to be expected because as games become more and more complex there are always bugs that crop up late in the game. If they released early models, then later updated them to a different standard everyone would be ###### that they released something different than advertised if they like the first one.
UWE has not yet failed on their fall release time frame (that would be the end of November) so whining about not having the game now is wrong and not comparable to taking your money. Try again in December.
I paid $40 from my own pocket, R$85 in local currency (Brazil), which is <b>MUCH</b> more expensive than $40 for USA/Europe citizens wallets.
I defend UWE out of loyalty, sympathy and comprehension. My $40 feel like an investment, not a simple purchase. Im investing in UWE and in return I get a great game.
<!--quoteo(post=1733657:date=Oct 23 2009, 12:12 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 23 2009, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bought the special edition with my own money. There are far more important things for me to worry about in life than UWE being a bit late. If I was going to be so upset over $40, then I was probably in a financial situation where I shouldn't be buying video games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
Sum's it up pretty much. If none of us had paid a red cent, and we were just moaning waiting for the alpha, yes, i could easily understand all these people defending UWE and their tactic's. But we paid our cold, hard cash for something we have not been delivered.
I used to work in a fruit and veg company, delivering fresh good's to catering kitchens. If even one delivery of the hundreds delivered was late, even a couple of minutes, we would have chef's on the phone to us giving out holy hell. What UWE is getting from the community at the moment is nothing to what i used to get on the phone from a pissed off chef. So can the apologist's stop trying to make out like we're calling for UWE to be crucified, because we're not. we're just getting impatient after, what, 6 months of nothing but a few renders and some models?
Also, Here's a question for yaz: Can anyone who has publically defended UWE in this thread also confirm that they have indeed bought ns2 with money paid for from your own pocket(Not daddy's pocket, or your boyfriend/girlfriend), and if so, why in god's name would you ever defend them? They took your cash and gave you nothing so far. If i come to your house, take your stuff and beat you up, maybe even pork your girlfriend, would you thank me afterwards and give me a pat on the back?
Yes?
Ok, ill be right over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fruit and vegetable deliveries to chef's are completely irrelevant to a computer game delivery. Your analogies and thesis over a computer game that you have pre-ordered being late are illogical, irrational and absurd. Without actually insulting you, I suggest you get a hobby and wait, you're one of the people this community doesn't need.