<!--quoteo(post=1781331:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:17 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hahaha I know exactly what i'm talking about, Scripting as in calling scripts from keybinds setup via the autoexec.cfg or anything you wanted to redirect the files too.cfg. I know what LUA is and its not bind mwheeldown +jump,+jump,+jump or whatever people used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not quite I'm afraid, I'm not blaming your not the only one. Quite a negative attitude against mwheeling aswell dont tell its an "exploit" aswell. Mwheel accomplishes the same as script some (most?) even prefer it and yea it works on our precious blockscript pub heavens too.
<!--quoteo(post=1781337:date=Jul 21 2010, 12:58 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not quite I'm afraid, I'm not blaming your not the only one. Quite a negative attitude against mwheeling aswell dont tell its an "exploit" aswell. Mwheel accomplishes the same as script some (most?) even prefer it and yea it works on our precious blockscript pub heavens too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its a shame Amped gaming is gone because they did a article on cvars and scripting I know because I wrote it for them, mwheelup or down it wasnt used in the script it was used to active it faster than you can generaly press a key.
<!--quoteo(post=1781340:date=Jul 21 2010, 03:04 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781340"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its a shame Amped gaming is gone because they did a article on cvars and scripting I know because I wrote it for them, mwheelup or down it wasnt used in the script it was used to active it faster than you can generaly press a key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it gives better result and balance why not? Regardless of how it achieved everyone can do it, your argument is no better than "its an unintended exploit" I think its overused and proven faulty enough already.
Saj, with buffering of jump it would remove dependency on one of the two major scripts used anyway. The truely abusive scripts are blocked in NS, and the not so abusive/non-abusive ones can be blocked by a variable.
puzl, how do you get mousewheel to fast switch weapons? I've never been able to do it, not like quake/quake2 did, it always makes me press mouse1 after moving the wheel D: hud_fastswitch doesn't appear to make any difference to it. So since HLDM I had to change to using keys to switch weapons, which used to be quite annoying with that many weapon slots in use :p
I suppose I'm used to the keys now, but it meant changing from using arrows to wasd which was annoying ><
With NS's small weapon list I put lastinv on mousewheel though and mash number keys if I need to use a 3rd weapon.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
DarkFrost, I'm not proposing that mwheel weapon switching is a good idea. I'm just saying that telling people "thou must mwheel or script to bunnyhop" isn't very good UI design. It should be attainable with the spacebar and it shouldn't need any editing of the config file. If Bhop is integral to game balance then it should be available in a default setup.
Bunny hopping owns. plain and simple. if a game is going to be fun, we have to get (un)realistic.
But what makes a game fun (my opinion) 1) I want a skill based game. advantages you can take that are tricky to do. -A new player would go, wow wtf just happened. -Someone that has been playing for a few weeks goes. WOW i know that's tricky, i wish i could do that. -Experienced players can do it most of the time but still mess up now and then.
2)An exploit/scripting arms race. -Config changes for what life form or team you're playing/ zoom with fov (scripting got taken out on my server and to tell you the truth it was *&^%ing inconvenient.) -Fast firing pistol and set the amount of bullets -BUNNYHOP -Crazy evasion (both sides) -Fast weapon switching
3)strategy -Crazy starcraftish scouting, a way to see which way your enemy is teching and counter tech it. -The ability to comeback, coming back because the other team got too cocky is fun. -Gamble strategies, that offer an advantage (if they work) -Complex strategies where teamwork makes a real difference but there's still room for an individual to shine.
4) map design -I think far too much emphasis is being placed on making the game "not so easy for newbies get lost in" what about complex map for people that play the game more than 5 hours. -_- NS should be about freaking cool complicated maps and how they interact witch strategy, not the same old "don't get lost in it" *&^% all the time. -The ability to have a long drawn out game that you get emotionally invested in.
5) Customization/modification -Player models, Gui, game modes, server settings. let people make them look how they like (no spiked models obviously) -make it easy to mod. if someone wants to make an version where aliens can fight aliens and marines can fight marines. just make it easy for them. Not everyone like to play the same old thing the same old way every time.
Quake 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kT_WGrL3Fs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kT_WGrL3Fs</a> Look at the depth of play. Any ns player can appreciate it.
TFC: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeDQaPbTqk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeDQaPbTqk</a> you cant tell me tf2 is more fun than that.
Just one mans opinion, but if you go down the route of tfc - tf2 Im going to be a very sad panda. (gorge)
but changing the FOV to see more than everyone else, scripting too shoot faster than you can click and scripting for 'crazy evasion' are all cheating in my book and have nothing to do with skill based movement like Bhing which while made easier with a jump script did not require it.
It's not cheating if everyone can do it. Also, its not a book, and even if it was a book, its not your book. If I want to run a script and set my gun to fire 3 or more bullets as fast as possible with one press i should be able to. Its not even an unrealistic expectation. We have the technology. right now.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1781330:date=Jul 21 2010, 12:16 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 21 2010, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making it less dependent on quirky combinations of strafe and turn would also be a good direction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with much of what you say (jump buffering is certainly an obvious fix), but this doesn't quite jive. Much of the reason bunnyhopping has a deep learning curve is BECAUSE it's dependant on quirky combinations of strafe and turn. I'm not sure what you're proposing -- that you simply hold forward and jump to bunnyhop? Maybe I'm reading your post wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1781355:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Littlegorge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Littlegorge @ Jul 21 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not cheating if everyone can do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really, so wallhacking and aimbotting isn't cheating, because everyone can do it? I hope you realize how stupid this sentence is?
Scripting isn't cheating in NS, so far as the game allows for it (mp_bs 0) and tournaments allow its use. Saj' problem is that he doesn't draw the distinction between what HE thinks should be illegal and what IS illegal. Personally I don't really care if scripting is allowed or not. I've played at the top level with and without them, it really doesn't make much difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1781353:date=Jul 21 2010, 04:00 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but changing the FOV to see more than everyone else, scripting too shoot faster than you can click and scripting for 'crazy evasion' are all cheating in my book and have nothing to do with skill based movement like Bhing which while made easier with a jump script did not require it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everything is allowed unless its written in rules, live with it. Your opinion has very little weight, its your choice not to use them and seriously "crazy evasion" yea imba script... Conversations can get so retarded when people force their opinions with little to none knowledge of the things.
I agree with puzl that nobody should have to google bhop, or 3jump script or bind mwheel to bhop if its included NS2.
Obviously in any UI design, the best solution would be to have user to be able to learn it without tutorials but if you want very deep gameplay, you'll have to sacrifice a bit of usability. Just check out Hearts of Iron, if you try to play the game without going through the tutorial, you'll be totally confused (I was atleast) yet it was one of the best heavy strategy games out there. Of course heavy strategy games are usually marketed to more hardcore gamers than casual.
Anyway there're several ways to address the learning curve. First if mwheel should be used, then jump should be bound to mwheel by default. It may sound weird, but I've seen a lot more weird default keybindings in mainstream games. Secondly, a good in-game tutorial would be awesome, just check out Call of Duty 4, Supreme Commander, Hawx, <a href="http://fretsonfire.sourceforge.net/" target="_blank">Frets on Fire</a> (probably one of the most amusing tutorials in games) etc. A scripted and acted skulk could instruct the player how to do it properly. Although I don't know if UWE has resouces to do it, but if anyone played ns_tutorial, it was awesome! It taught you a bit of the game, and it was fun. I think the current dm maps would fit the tutorials just fine so you'd only have to code the events and do some UI stuff. It could show you the required mouse movement on the screen. This may sound a bit too much hardcore but again, games like Tekken have equally hard techniques.
Basically I was thinking that in main-menu there would be tutorials-button with several tutorials for different subjects. Like marine basics, alien basics, commander basics, bunnyhop etc. Those who don't want to play the game too much, can just take maybe the basics and play a lot of marine and use ambush tactics as skulk (this could be covered in a tutorial so a group of marines would go by and the player would have to kill the last of those with a ambush spot). Scripted and vocally instructed can be a lot of fun, and definitely a lot more fun than reading any online tutorials. And I'm sure a lot of players would be ready to bug test the tutorials. I'm sure NS fans could come up a lot of ideas for tutorials.
One solution could be mp_bunnyhop so more casual-oriented servers could go without it.
Another solution would be to have some kind of match-making system or ranked servers or anything to keep the teams balanced. If you put up a bunch of new players to a server and most likely nobody can bunnyhop, it won't make any difference if its in the game or not. This applies to all other features aswell. If the teams and the game is balanced, it does not really matter what's in the game because both teams are expected to perform them equally well or teams are not balanced. <i>Quod erat demonstrandum!</i>
This is not my business but TrC ad SaJ could you keep the FOV/script argument away, so the thread won't derail to useless nagging around scripts.
<!--quoteo(post=1781379:date=Jul 21 2010, 03:05 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything is allowed unless its written in rules, live with it. Your opinion has very little weight, its your choice not to use them and seriously "crazy evasion" yea imba script... Conversations can get so retarded when people force their opinions with little to none knowledge of the things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No its not, thats why its called exploiting and why competitions have a whole set of laid out rules and regulations, my opinion is worth at least as much as yours. My NS credencials are in my sig.
<!--quoteo(post=1781382:date=Jul 21 2010, 05:11 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No its not, thats why its called exploiting and why competitions have a whole set of laid out rules and regulations, my opinion is worth at least as much as yours. My NS credencials are in my sig.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you repeating me while declaring it exploit wtf?
<!--quoteo(post=1781371:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 21 2010, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with much of what you say (jump buffering is certainly an obvious fix), but this doesn't quite jive. Much of the reason bunnyhopping has a deep learning curve is BECAUSE it's dependant on quirky combinations of strafe and turn. I'm not sure what you're proposing -- that you simply hold forward and jump to bunnyhop? Maybe I'm reading your post wrong.
Really, so wallhacking and aimbotting isn't cheating, because everyone can do it? I hope you realize how stupid this sentence is?
Scripting isn't cheating in NS, so far as the game allows for it (mp_bs 0) and tournaments allow its use. Saj' problem is that he doesn't draw the distinction between what HE thinks should be illegal and what IS illegal. Personally I don't really care if scripting is allowed or not. I've played at the top level with and without them, it really doesn't make much difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill agree with some of that Fana. We (bP) also played at the top level and stayed up many a late night to scrim with the US clans ( who didnt mind our USE server ) and we always stuck to CAL or Clanbases rules for servers and configs so that we knew what was allowed and what was not, giving people free reign is not a good idea imo because different types of people will go to different lengths to get an advantage. Scripting in itself isnt cheating your right but people will always try to use it to exploit/cheat, so much so I'd prefer it to be impossible to use client side scripts or cvar lists ( anything that is configurable should be done so inthe menus) . Its more of a way to keep a level playing field for as much as possible than anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1781387:date=Jul 21 2010, 03:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 21 2010, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you repeating me while declaring it exploit wtf?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you slow ? you said "Everything is allowed unless its written in rules" well every day games on normal servers dont (usualy)have rules or admins to enforce them, hense the phrase exploiting/cheating. If what you said was true there would be no need for admins or demo recording at all, but there is (in every competitive match) and being a admin on a public server is just alot of work Our server( and there public's) from Warservers was very popular because of the level of admining and lack of tollerance for people taking the mickey in every way they could.
<!--quoteo(post=1781389:date=Jul 21 2010, 05:21 PM:name=Saj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saj @ Jul 21 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you slow ? you said "Everything is allowed unless its written in rules" well every day games on normal servers dont have rules or admins to enforce them , hense the phrase exploiting/cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So theres nobody to enforce your opinions of "exploits" thus they are exploits and everything can be exploit. Not quite unless its written in rules it is allowed obviously there are few unspoken rules like obvious cheating from speedhack to aimbot but scripting or binding doesnt even come close to that.
Let me give real life example, you cant be punished from something you do unless its written in law. Just because random retard Sam thinks walking is immoral and crime doesnt make it punishable because it isnt written in law, rules work in same way. If theres no rules, nobody to enforce them they are allowed.
<!--quoteo(post=1781380:date=Jul 21 2010, 09:06 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 21 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What Fana said in his superlong post.
I agree with puzl that nobody should have to google bhop, or 3jump script or bind mwheel to bhop if its included NS2.
Obviously in any UI design, the best solution would be to have user to be able to learn it without tutorials but if you want very deep gameplay, you'll have to sacrifice a bit of usability. Just check out Hearts of Iron, if you try to play the game without going through the tutorial, you'll be totally confused (I was atleast) yet it was one of the best heavy strategy games out there. Of course heavy strategy games are usually marketed to more hardcore gamers than casual.
Anyway there're several ways to address the learning curve. First if mwheel should be used, then jump should be bound to mwheel by default. It may sound weird, but I've seen a lot more weird default keybindings in mainstream games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also agree they shouldn't have to google anything to have the fast moving dodge functionality that bunnyhopping allows.
-------
As I already suggested, having the jump key function as an instant hop on landing, just like the 3jump script does should be built into the game. The game could intentionally allow a certain class, lets say the skulk, to have a top speed while jumping that is faster than running while not doing so to other slower classes such as the Gorge or the Marine.
The problem with NS1 bunnyhopping, and what made it an exploit, was that it could be used to bypass the game's class specific speed limitations so while it made skulking a bit more efficient it also made the marines able to move faster than intended and more able to avoid damage from biting that they were not designed to avoid.
Since the devs have stated that bunny hopping will be in for skulks I'm hoping that they do it the way I'm thinking, with easier keys and more logical steps such as simply hopping along instead of having to push a bunch of keys to do the exact same thing just like they did with +movement. I laughed when I saw the first complaint about +movement stating that it "removed the complexity of the game" and "made the game for noobs". That's what the bunny hopping argument comes down to, should it simply be a feature that can be adjusted by the devs, such as restricting which classes can easily move at high speed or should it be something that a player can use on any unit type to bypass the normal game limitations such as speed by class?
I think it should be dev decided, and I do think that the effect of bunny hopping that were good for the game (fast movement for scouts) can easily be replicated with increased speed and movement design such as the ability to insta-hop on landing by holding down a key instead of having to use a mousewheel script and add extra movement choices such as leaping to the side to make movement both more logical and at the same time make it accessible for new players. Having to alternate keys and where the mouse is pointed to increase speed doesn't add game complexity, it just makes movement tedious.
My dislike of air control is something separate, and isn't necessary for skulks if they can move quickly to attack from multiple angles and marines can't bunny hop away from their attacks either. I'm looking forward to the alpha to see how the devs are implementing the movement :)
<!--quoteo(post=1781344:date=Jul 21 2010, 01:29 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 21 2010, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DarkFrost, I'm not proposing that mwheel weapon switching is a good idea. I'm just saying that telling people "thou must mwheel or script to bunnyhop" isn't very good UI design. It should be attainable with the spacebar and it shouldn't need any editing of the config file. If Bhop is integral to game balance then it should be available in a default setup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you missinterpreted my meaning, I thought that you had worked out how to get weapon switch to work on mousewheel and was enquiring how, that was all :/
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1781371:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:58 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 21 2010, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with much of what you say (jump buffering is certainly an obvious fix), but this doesn't quite jive. Much of the reason bunnyhopping has a deep learning curve is BECAUSE it's dependant on quirky combinations of strafe and turn. I'm not sure what you're proposing -- that you simply hold forward and jump to bunnyhop? Maybe I'm reading your post wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, two very basic changes are this:
1. Make the basic bhop jump independent of the forward key state. 2. Give a noticeable speed increase from a poor curve, and diminishing returns on a more accurate curve, with maximum speed increase from a "perfect" curve.
The net result is it is easy to bunnyhop badly and hard to bunnyhop well. The learning curve is a bit less steep at the front, but continues to be very deep.
My basic point about bunnyhopping is that it should be easy to learn and difficult to master. Right now in NS1 it is not easy to learn. Note: there is a difference between learning something and being taught it.
The simplest way to achieve it in quake 3 is to circle strafe while holding forward and jumping, while moving the mouse the same direction as the strafe, or more 'where you want to go' to go faster you alternate direction, and forward can be held or not after that.
And here is how quake 3 does it: (sorry its a tutorial)
<!--quoteo(post=1781425:date=Jul 21 2010, 04:58 PM:name=DarkFrost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 21 2010, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The further this thread goes on. The more I keep thinking of one name, over and over...
Quake 3.
It has probably the easiest 'bunny hop', besides pogo jumping, to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. If bhop is to stay in.
I still think the double jump as seen in TF2 (scout) can do the trick for skulks, though. So easy to do, but there's surprsing depth to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1781397:date=Jul 21 2010, 09:51 AM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 21 2010, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with NS1 bunnyhopping, and what made it an exploit,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ex·ploit (Ä›k'sploit', Äk-sploit') n. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
Please don't start the debate about giving things silly names and then strawmanning it up by implying negative meaning of said names... I remember this forum doing the 'exploit' flamewar a good 7 years ago, you won't get anywhere, 10 posts in someone will link Sirlin which is the equivalent of a 50 hitlers post, lots of people will call eachother cheaters and then everyone in the thread loses. Stop trying to go there.
Quake 2+ did away with the air brakes of Q1, which means the whole redirection of motion jazz doesn't exist in the later quake games. You have some control in the air in these games, but it's limited to pressing in a direction to accelerate a little in that direction while in the air, no slingshot effect. The technique for gaining speed is different, Quake 3 still has deep and varied motion but the air control physics in Q3 don't really lend themselves well to a game where you might spend a significant amount of time in the air. People use hopping and lots of little jump tricks to traverse the map and open up new routes, but being airborne in a Q3 fight generally is just really really bad. While Q3 physics are certainly an improvement over base movement, NS benefits a great deal from the air control that the Q1 movement brings. The design lends itself to skulks being airborne a lot, so it's a good thing for the game to give you significant control in the air to the degree that dodging is possible. Air dodging anything other than a full map rocket on longest yard doesn't really work in Q3.
Q3 has other elements like the prediction of projectile splash that makes movement via normal means far more indepth and rewarding in that game, NS doesn't because of the nature of the weapons.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake live is also different from quake 3, having more purist stafe jumping to achieve speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I need to correct you on this Darkfrost because you seem to have gotten the wrong impression from seeing limited amounts of each game. Quake 3 and Quake Live share the exact same physics framework, any difference is purely in the little details such as FPS based rounding. The different 'techniques' in the 2 videos you linked are actually all the exact same thing, if you look at the movement vectors involved, the only changes are the directions held and the angle of the player relative to motion. Eg. looking straight forward and holding forward+left strafe, is essentially the same as looking 45 degrees to the right and holding only left strafe. They aren't different tricks, it's just a different viewpoint.
The way Q3 acceleration works is that while moving forward in the air, if you hold to move in a direction a certain angle off to the side, the combination of the 2 movement vectors results in a speed increase. Since the sweet spot angle to accelerate changes based on how fast you're moving, you need to steadily change the angle you're holding in, which is done by moving the mouse as you accelerate. Also, since you're holding off to a side, you veer to that side, so switching sides helps to keep a straight path. Since the angle gets wider as you get faster, if you're hopping while holding toward+strafe and looking forwardish, you'll be looking further and further out to the side, when you switch sides to stay straight, you need to flick all the way to the opposite angle to hit the sweet spot. The result of doing that is what the video calls beat strafing, which is actually the same thing as every other hopping technique, just done at a speed and angle that involves dramatic mouse movement. 'Beat strafing' maps have existed in Q3 for ages long before QL was concieved, and the movement you see in the Quake live video works identically in Q3 bounce for bounce. I know, i played around on those maps well before QL.
Guides like the Q3 video you linked are rather iffy because they teach a colouring by numbers way of looking at hopping, as a set combination of keys. That's why people see variations of the same thing as if it were a completely different technique, and can't understand why certain things work the way they do. If you look at the movement as a set of vectors you can see how it actually works, think of any direction you press as an arrow coming from your character relative to your direction of motion. So if you're facing where you're going and hold forward+leftstrafe, that's a 45 degree diagonal arrow (Not exactly 45 degrees in Q3, but work with me). At low speed, the sweet spot for getting acceleration might be to press in a direction 55 deg off to the side. So rotate your mouse 10 deg left, now you accelerate, the sweet angle becomes wider, so you move your mouse further left. This exact same thing would work while just holding +forward in the air and facing 55 degres left, or holding backwards and facing at an angle behind you, etc etc. It's all the same thing.
Right... i might as well make another post for the NS related replies, i do like to ramble.
Comments
Not quite I'm afraid, I'm not blaming your not the only one. Quite a negative attitude against mwheeling aswell dont tell its an "exploit" aswell. Mwheel accomplishes the same as script some (most?) even prefer it and yea it works on our precious blockscript pub heavens too.
Its a shame Amped gaming is gone because they did a article on cvars and scripting I know because I wrote it for them, mwheelup or down it wasnt used in the script it was used to active it faster than you can generaly press a key.
If it gives better result and balance why not? Regardless of how it achieved everyone can do it, your argument is no better than "its an unintended exploit" I think its overused and proven faulty enough already.
puzl, how do you get mousewheel to fast switch weapons? I've never been able to do it, not like quake/quake2 did, it always makes me press mouse1 after moving the wheel D:
hud_fastswitch doesn't appear to make any difference to it. So since HLDM I had to change to using keys to switch weapons, which used to be quite annoying with that many weapon slots in use :p
I suppose I'm used to the keys now, but it meant changing from using arrows to wasd which was annoying ><
With NS's small weapon list I put lastinv on mousewheel though and mash number keys if I need to use a 3rd weapon.
Bunny hopping owns. plain and simple. if a game is going to be fun, we have to get (un)realistic.
But what makes a game fun (my opinion)
1) I want a skill based game. advantages you can take that are tricky to do.
-A new player would go, wow wtf just happened.
-Someone that has been playing for a few weeks goes. WOW i know that's tricky, i wish i could do that.
-Experienced players can do it most of the time but still mess up now and then.
2)An exploit/scripting arms race.
-Config changes for what life form or team you're playing/ zoom with fov (scripting got taken out on my server and to tell you the truth it was *&^%ing inconvenient.)
-Fast firing pistol and set the amount of bullets
-BUNNYHOP
-Crazy evasion (both sides)
-Fast weapon switching
3)strategy
-Crazy starcraftish scouting, a way to see which way your enemy is teching and counter tech it.
-The ability to comeback, coming back because the other team got too cocky is fun.
-Gamble strategies, that offer an advantage (if they work)
-Complex strategies where teamwork makes a real difference but there's still room for an individual to shine.
4) map design
-I think far too much emphasis is being placed on making the game "not so easy for newbies get lost in"
what about complex map for people that play the game more than 5 hours. -_- NS should be about freaking cool complicated maps and how they interact witch strategy, not the same old "don't get lost in it" *&^% all the time.
-The ability to have a long drawn out game that you get emotionally invested in.
5) Customization/modification
-Player models, Gui, game modes, server settings. let people make them look how they like (no spiked models obviously)
-make it easy to mod. if someone wants to make an version where aliens can fight aliens and marines can fight marines. just make it easy for them. Not everyone like to play the same old thing the same old way every time.
Quake 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kT_WGrL3Fs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kT_WGrL3Fs</a>
Look at the depth of play. Any ns player can appreciate it.
TFC: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeDQaPbTqk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeDQaPbTqk</a>
you cant tell me tf2 is more fun than that.
Just one mans opinion, but if you go down the route of tfc - tf2 Im going to be a very sad panda. (gorge)
If I want to run a script and set my gun to fire 3 or more bullets as fast as possible with one press i should be able to. Its not even an unrealistic expectation. We have the technology. right now.
Umm.
I agree with much of what you say (jump buffering is certainly an obvious fix), but this doesn't quite jive. Much of the reason bunnyhopping has a deep learning curve is BECAUSE it's dependant on quirky combinations of strafe and turn. I'm not sure what you're proposing -- that you simply hold forward and jump to bunnyhop? Maybe I'm reading your post wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1781355:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Littlegorge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Littlegorge @ Jul 21 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not cheating if everyone can do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really, so wallhacking and aimbotting isn't cheating, because everyone can do it? I hope you realize how stupid this sentence is?
Scripting isn't cheating in NS, so far as the game allows for it (mp_bs 0) and tournaments allow its use. Saj' problem is that he doesn't draw the distinction between what HE thinks should be illegal and what IS illegal. Personally I don't really care if scripting is allowed or not. I've played at the top level with and without them, it really doesn't make much difference.
Everything is allowed unless its written in rules, live with it. Your opinion has very little weight, its your choice not to use them and seriously "crazy evasion" yea imba script... Conversations can get so retarded when people force their opinions with little to none knowledge of the things.
I agree with puzl that nobody should have to google bhop, or 3jump script or bind mwheel to bhop if its included NS2.
Obviously in any UI design, the best solution would be to have user to be able to learn it without tutorials but if you want very deep gameplay, you'll have to sacrifice a bit of usability. Just check out Hearts of Iron, if you try to play the game without going through the tutorial, you'll be totally confused (I was atleast) yet it was one of the best heavy strategy games out there. Of course heavy strategy games are usually marketed to more hardcore gamers than casual.
Anyway there're several ways to address the learning curve. First if mwheel should be used, then jump should be bound to mwheel by default. It may sound weird, but I've seen a lot more weird default keybindings in mainstream games. Secondly, a good in-game tutorial would be awesome, just check out Call of Duty 4, Supreme Commander, Hawx, <a href="http://fretsonfire.sourceforge.net/" target="_blank">Frets on Fire</a> (probably one of the most amusing tutorials in games) etc. A scripted and acted skulk could instruct the player how to do it properly. Although I don't know if UWE has resouces to do it, but if anyone played ns_tutorial, it was awesome! It taught you a bit of the game, and it was fun. I think the current dm maps would fit the tutorials just fine so you'd only have to code the events and do some UI stuff. It could show you the required mouse movement on the screen. This may sound a bit too much hardcore but again, games like Tekken have equally hard techniques.
Basically I was thinking that in main-menu there would be tutorials-button with several tutorials for different subjects. Like marine basics, alien basics, commander basics, bunnyhop etc. Those who don't want to play the game too much, can just take maybe the basics and play a lot of marine and use ambush tactics as skulk (this could be covered in a tutorial so a group of marines would go by and the player would have to kill the last of those with a ambush spot). Scripted and vocally instructed can be a lot of fun, and definitely a lot more fun than reading any online tutorials. And I'm sure a lot of players would be ready to bug test the tutorials. I'm sure NS fans could come up a lot of ideas for tutorials.
One solution could be mp_bunnyhop so more casual-oriented servers could go without it.
Another solution would be to have some kind of match-making system or ranked servers or anything to keep the teams balanced. If you put up a bunch of new players to a server and most likely nobody can bunnyhop, it won't make any difference if its in the game or not. This applies to all other features aswell. If the teams and the game is balanced, it does not really matter what's in the game because both teams are expected to perform them equally well or teams are not balanced. <i>Quod erat demonstrandum!</i>
This is not my business but TrC ad SaJ could you keep the FOV/script argument away, so the thread won't derail to useless nagging around scripts.
No its not, thats why its called exploiting and why competitions have a whole set of laid out rules and regulations, my opinion is worth at least as much as yours. My NS credencials are in my sig.
Are you repeating me while declaring it exploit wtf?
Really, so wallhacking and aimbotting isn't cheating, because everyone can do it? I hope you realize how stupid this sentence is?
Scripting isn't cheating in NS, so far as the game allows for it (mp_bs 0) and tournaments allow its use. Saj' problem is that he doesn't draw the distinction between what HE thinks should be illegal and what IS illegal. Personally I don't really care if scripting is allowed or not. I've played at the top level with and without them, it really doesn't make much difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill agree with some of that Fana. We (bP) also played at the top level and stayed up many a late night to scrim with the US clans ( who didnt mind our USE server ) and we always stuck to CAL or Clanbases rules for servers and configs so that we knew what was allowed and what was not, giving people free reign is not a good idea imo because different types of people will go to different lengths to get an advantage. Scripting in itself isnt cheating your right but people will always try to use it to exploit/cheat, so much so I'd prefer it to be impossible to use client side scripts or cvar lists ( anything that is configurable should be done so inthe menus) . Its more of a way to keep a level playing field for as much as possible than anything else.
Are you slow ? you said "Everything is allowed unless its written in rules" well every day games on normal servers dont (usualy)have rules or admins to enforce them, hense the phrase exploiting/cheating. If what you said was true there would be no need for admins or demo recording at all, but there is (in every competitive match) and being a admin on a public server is just alot of work Our server( and there public's) from Warservers was very popular because of the level of admining and lack of tollerance for people taking the mickey in every way they could.
So theres nobody to enforce your opinions of "exploits" thus they are exploits and everything can be exploit. Not quite unless its written in rules it is allowed obviously there are few unspoken rules like obvious cheating from speedhack to aimbot but scripting or binding doesnt even come close to that.
Let me give real life example, you cant be punished from something you do unless its written in law. Just because random retard Sam thinks walking is immoral and crime doesnt make it punishable because it isnt written in law, rules work in same way. If theres no rules, nobody to enforce them they are allowed.
I agree with puzl that nobody should have to google bhop, or 3jump script or bind mwheel to bhop if its included NS2.
Obviously in any UI design, the best solution would be to have user to be able to learn it without tutorials but if you want very deep gameplay, you'll have to sacrifice a bit of usability. Just check out Hearts of Iron, if you try to play the game without going through the tutorial, you'll be totally confused (I was atleast) yet it was one of the best heavy strategy games out there. Of course heavy strategy games are usually marketed to more hardcore gamers than casual.
Anyway there're several ways to address the learning curve. First if mwheel should be used, then jump should be bound to mwheel by default. It may sound weird, but I've seen a lot more weird default keybindings in mainstream games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also agree they shouldn't have to google anything to have the fast moving dodge functionality that bunnyhopping allows.
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As I already suggested, having the jump key function as an instant hop on landing, just like the 3jump script does should be built into the game. The game could intentionally allow a certain class, lets say the skulk, to have a top speed while jumping that is faster than running while not doing so to other slower classes such as the Gorge or the Marine.
The problem with NS1 bunnyhopping, and what made it an exploit, was that it could be used to bypass the game's class specific speed limitations so while it made skulking a bit more efficient it also made the marines able to move faster than intended and more able to avoid damage from biting that they were not designed to avoid.
Since the devs have stated that bunny hopping will be in for skulks I'm hoping that they do it the way I'm thinking, with easier keys and more logical steps such as simply hopping along instead of having to push a bunch of keys to do the exact same thing just like they did with +movement. I laughed when I saw the first complaint about +movement stating that it "removed the complexity of the game" and "made the game for noobs". That's what the bunny hopping argument comes down to, should it simply be a feature that can be adjusted by the devs, such as restricting which classes can easily move at high speed or should it be something that a player can use on any unit type to bypass the normal game limitations such as speed by class?
I think it should be dev decided, and I do think that the effect of bunny hopping that were good for the game (fast movement for scouts) can easily be replicated with increased speed and movement design such as the ability to insta-hop on landing by holding down a key instead of having to use a mousewheel script and add extra movement choices such as leaping to the side to make movement both more logical and at the same time make it accessible for new players. Having to alternate keys and where the mouse is pointed to increase speed doesn't add game complexity, it just makes movement tedious.
My dislike of air control is something separate, and isn't necessary for skulks if they can move quickly to attack from multiple angles and marines can't bunny hop away from their attacks either. I'm looking forward to the alpha to see how the devs are implementing the movement :)
I think you missinterpreted my meaning, I thought that you had worked out how to get weapon switch to work on mousewheel and was enquiring how, that was all :/
Well, two very basic changes are this:
1. Make the basic bhop jump independent of the forward key state.
2. Give a noticeable speed increase from a poor curve, and diminishing returns on a more accurate curve, with maximum speed increase from a "perfect" curve.
The net result is it is easy to bunnyhop badly and hard to bunnyhop well. The learning curve is a bit less steep at the front, but continues to be very deep.
My basic point about bunnyhopping is that it should be easy to learn and difficult to master. Right now in NS1 it is not easy to learn. Note: there is a difference between learning something and being taught it.
Quake 3.
It has probably the easiest 'bunny hop', besides pogo jumping, to achieve.
Quake live is also different from quake 3, having more purist stafe jumping to achieve speed.
Sorry this is the best example I can find:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfpaEAh3geM&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfpaEAh3geM...feature=related</a>
The simplest way to achieve it in quake 3 is to circle strafe while holding forward and jumping, while moving the mouse the same direction as the strafe, or more 'where you want to go' to go faster you alternate direction, and forward can be held or not after that.
And here is how quake 3 does it: (sorry its a tutorial)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g24fe4bwu0...feature=related</a>
Quake 3.
It has probably the easiest 'bunny hop', besides pogo jumping, to achieve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. If bhop is to stay in.
I still think the double jump as seen in TF2 (scout) can do the trick for skulks, though. So easy to do, but there's surprsing depth to it.
ex·ploit (Ä›k'sploit', Äk-sploit')
n. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
Please don't start the debate about giving things silly names and then strawmanning it up by implying negative meaning of said names... I remember this forum doing the 'exploit' flamewar a good 7 years ago, you won't get anywhere, 10 posts in someone will link Sirlin which is the equivalent of a 50 hitlers post, lots of people will call eachother cheaters and then everyone in the thread loses. Stop trying to go there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake 3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quake 2+ did away with the air brakes of Q1, which means the whole redirection of motion jazz doesn't exist in the later quake games. You have some control in the air in these games, but it's limited to pressing in a direction to accelerate a little in that direction while in the air, no slingshot effect. The technique for gaining speed is different, Quake 3 still has deep and varied motion but the air control physics in Q3 don't really lend themselves well to a game where you might spend a significant amount of time in the air. People use hopping and lots of little jump tricks to traverse the map and open up new routes, but being airborne in a Q3 fight generally is just really really bad. While Q3 physics are certainly an improvement over base movement, NS benefits a great deal from the air control that the Q1 movement brings. The design lends itself to skulks being airborne a lot, so it's a good thing for the game to give you significant control in the air to the degree that dodging is possible. Air dodging anything other than a full map rocket on longest yard doesn't really work in Q3.
Q3 has other elements like the prediction of projectile splash that makes movement via normal means far more indepth and rewarding in that game, NS doesn't because of the nature of the weapons.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quake live is also different from quake 3, having more purist stafe jumping to achieve speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I need to correct you on this Darkfrost because you seem to have gotten the wrong impression from seeing limited amounts of each game. Quake 3 and Quake Live share the exact same physics framework, any difference is purely in the little details such as FPS based rounding. The different 'techniques' in the 2 videos you linked are actually all the exact same thing, if you look at the movement vectors involved, the only changes are the directions held and the angle of the player relative to motion. Eg. looking straight forward and holding forward+left strafe, is essentially the same as looking 45 degrees to the right and holding only left strafe. They aren't different tricks, it's just a different viewpoint.
The way Q3 acceleration works is that while moving forward in the air, if you hold to move in a direction a certain angle off to the side, the combination of the 2 movement vectors results in a speed increase. Since the sweet spot angle to accelerate changes based on how fast you're moving, you need to steadily change the angle you're holding in, which is done by moving the mouse as you accelerate. Also, since you're holding off to a side, you veer to that side, so switching sides helps to keep a straight path. Since the angle gets wider as you get faster, if you're hopping while holding toward+strafe and looking forwardish, you'll be looking further and further out to the side, when you switch sides to stay straight, you need to flick all the way to the opposite angle to hit the sweet spot. The result of doing that is what the video calls beat strafing, which is actually the same thing as every other hopping technique, just done at a speed and angle that involves dramatic mouse movement. 'Beat strafing' maps have existed in Q3 for ages long before QL was concieved, and the movement you see in the Quake live video works identically in Q3 bounce for bounce. I know, i played around on those maps well before QL.
Guides like the Q3 video you linked are rather iffy because they teach a colouring by numbers way of looking at hopping, as a set combination of keys. That's why people see variations of the same thing as if it were a completely different technique, and can't understand why certain things work the way they do. If you look at the movement as a set of vectors you can see how it actually works, think of any direction you press as an arrow coming from your character relative to your direction of motion. So if you're facing where you're going and hold forward+leftstrafe, that's a 45 degree diagonal arrow (Not exactly 45 degrees in Q3, but work with me). At low speed, the sweet spot for getting acceleration might be to press in a direction 55 deg off to the side. So rotate your mouse 10 deg left, now you accelerate, the sweet angle becomes wider, so you move your mouse further left. This exact same thing would work while just holding +forward in the air and facing 55 degres left, or holding backwards and facing at an angle behind you, etc etc. It's all the same thing.
Right... i might as well make another post for the NS related replies, i do like to ramble.
Though at least a rather educated one.
When peeps refer to Quake 3 for NS2 Bunnyhopping. Most of them actually just want quake style jumping with goldsource physics.
If not, correct me.
Doro-wot means chicken stew in Amharic (most widely used language in Ethiopia). What kind of stew is arg wot?