<!--quoteo(post=1858760:date=Jul 8 2011, 08:02 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 8 2011, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a feeling ambushes are going to be a lot more viable when power nodes aren't scouting you out, especially if the supposed slow on bite goes into effect, then the first attack will be the most important one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that general attitude that 'the first bite is the most important one'
That is generally true for things like crocs, snakes, and sharks when dealing with prey closer to their size. Nailing that first bite should draw blood, inject poison whatever. It wounds and disheartens the prey.
It will train people to bite spam less as skulks.
Also great point on the mini-map I have had encounters recently where I swore the marine knew i was behind him. What is the range on the power nodes so i don't perform near them.
<!--quoteo(post=1858781:date=Jul 8 2011, 10:53 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jul 8 2011, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like that general attitude that 'the first bite is the most important one' ...
It will train people to bite spam less as skulks.
Also great point on the mini-map I have had encounters recently where I swore the marine knew i was behind him. What is the range on the power nodes so i don't perform near them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My skill went way up with Skulk once I stopped running and randomly biting and started to always use leap/bite and only bite when i was close to the marine versus chasing and biting in a circle, and learned to stay off the ground when attacking.
People need to spend more time hiding in vents under floors on the ceiling and less time randomly chomping at air and they will find that the skulk is one of the best classes even late game.
Part of the problem with ambushing is that some maps have details on the wall and ceilings which makes it hard to get up to and move on, and the sticky walk is unreliable. Like earlier (I think they fixed it now) I died trying to jump over a rail.
<!--quoteo(post=1858616:date=Jul 7 2011, 08:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 7 2011, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and that it requires extraordinaly effort or talent to achieve. Trust me it does not, although unintuitive it is something you do every time you move, it gets better very quickly in matter of minutes and scales up to the 50hours played. The difference between 1h played and 50h is hardly noticable, it is your creativeness that eventually leads to your kind of bunnyhob (yes everyone creates some own habits). Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######, we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!. Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about.
After playing today I'm totally fine with the change. You can still jump around like before only when you get hit you slow down. It's definitely not an improvement but I wouldn't classify it as a big deal.
Edit: Nevermind, after playing for a few hours it's pretty much awful, ESPECIALLY on aliens. I mean, I realize that this was an experimental thing to put in which I could somewhat understand for marines, but on aliens?!?! This idea is almost as bad as the cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=1858780:date=Jul 8 2011, 04:52 PM:name=Majin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Majin @ Jul 8 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am starting to see a trend here... It remind me a lot of the threads that were in NS1 /me rolls eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference being that in NS1 bunny hopping was actually skill based so the discussion was worth having. Jump spamming in NS2 isn't skill based so it shouldn't give you an advantage. I don't see how anyone could argue that it should stay as it is.
Btw, I'm totally against slowdown on hit. That, if anything, does restrict movement and can be very frustrating at times.
<!--quoteo(post=1858998:date=Jul 9 2011, 05:18 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jul 9 2011, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference being that in NS1 bunny hopping was actually skill based so the discussion was worth having. Jump spamming in NS2 isn't skill based so it shouldn't give you an advantage. I don't see how anyone could argue that it should stay as it is.
Btw, I'm totally against slowdown on hit. That, if anything, does restrict movement and can be very frustrating at times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good players don't randomly spam jump. I time my jumps to jump over aliens, to get further distance when going backwards, and going on rails. In fact, this patch really didn't change much.
Uh, I'm all for non-frustrating gameplay, but because something can be frustrating for some people at some point and time doesn't make it a bad gameplay mechanic. Getting shot from long range can be frustrating, doesn't mean we should take away marine guns and lerk spikes.
There's nothing wrong with sometimes limiting movement, it would be just as "frustrating" to an alien to be unable to close for whatever reason as it would be for marines to be unable to get away. There's a happy balance, categorically dismissing anything that moderates movement as bad seems silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1858896:date=Jul 9 2011, 08:19 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 9 2011, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1858616:date=Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and that it requires extraordinaly effort or talent to achieve. Trust me it does not, although unintuitive it is something you do every time you move, it gets better very quickly in matter of minutes and scales up to the 50hours played. The difference between 1h played and 50h is hardly noticable, it is your creativeness that eventually leads to your kind of bunnyhob (yes everyone creates some own habits). Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######, we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!. Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First: Wut.
Second: You sound like I just kicked your dog. That may be an apt analogy, because bunnyhopping seems to be your "pet exploit". Sorry, bro, but nothing I said was unreasonable. Or is it that that makes you more mad?
Now,
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and blah blah"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> No. It's just a movement exploit from an old engine that failed to (or chose not to) approximate real-world physics. It was a happy accident (for some) that it allowed you to gain a speed advantage (and thereby gain greater control over your speed), which supposedly resulted in deeper gameplay. If it is for some reason put in, then I'll learn it and use it because I want the advantage - as a competitor, that is an imperative. But it shouldn't be put in, because it is not intuitive (jumping around, left and right, to gain speed?) and as unhappy side-effect, also looks stupid - it is bad design.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######,"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Prove it. It's all well and good to say "you're wrong", but tell me HOW I'm wrong. Tell me HOW you can make bunnyhopping MORE INTUITIVE, MORE REALISTIC, MORE PROFESSIONAL, and SIMPLER TO USE. And don't dodge the issue by saying some bull###### like "that's up to UWE!". They're only human, like you and I.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A game that does not need bunnyhop.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> PRAISE THE LOORRDDDDD! or alternatively, Wut.
<!--quoteo(post=1859030:date=Jul 9 2011, 02:31 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 9 2011, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859030"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was a happy accident (for some) that it allowed you to gain a speed advantage (and thereby gain greater control over your speed), which supposedly resulted in deeper gameplay. If it is for some reason put in, then I'll learn it and use it because I want the advantage - as a competitor, that is an imperative. But it shouldn't be put in, because it is not intuitive (jumping around, left and right, to gain speed?) and as unhappy side-effect, also looks stupid - it is bad design.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######,"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Prove it. It's all well and good to say "you're wrong", but tell me HOW I'm wrong. Tell me HOW you can make bunnyhopping MORE INTUITIVE, MORE REALISTIC, MORE PROFESSIONAL, and SIMPLER TO USE. And don't dodge the issue by saying some bull###### like "that's up to UWE!". They're only human, like you and I.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A game that does not need bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, yes you and everyone else like you spit straight into people faces everytime you start spreading hate about bunnyhop. People with absolute no knowledge start to believe that it is indeed an exploit, cheat or whatever that breaks their life down. This has escalated to a point where people like you continuously emerge without any material that you have a clue what you are talking about or any will to listen reason. It is extremely easy to differentiate a blind hater, exploit born by accident is hardly reason for not including or rework it into the next version. Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft. The tribesmen would not know the difference they would believe it is the reincarnate of the devil much like most of the bunnyhop haters do now.
Button spamming, excessive left and right jumping or mere control over speed are almost definite reasons to assume the posters has no freaking clue. I know it must come as a surprise because those tens of posts were not enough bunnyhopping is not button spamming, infact it takes LESS buttons than strafing to the marine. If you knew how to bunnyhop you would know that left and right mouse movement is very minimal so minimal that it actually looks straight when watched from third person the only reason you would believe it requires massive turning is because you have seen someone else bunnyhop as a third person. Obviously the reason he did come straight was because it would be too EASY to shoot him does this even make sense?
You must really look down to the devs if you really do not believe they could animate a forward/backward jumping skulk and by jumping I mean really jumping not this retarded upwards exertion that really does not even make sense. Seriously what are you thinking? Looks stupid even as bad as argument that is it is hardly undoable. Just think of a lion or tiger hunting and a simple evolutionary boon in skulks brain that running straight to bullets gets you killed.
There has been many ideas how to make bunnyhop simpler first that everyone can agree on is removing need to have script or use mwheel. I bet some even consired stripping down to the mere requirement of jumping twice, which would give slight increase in speed that could be used with an increased air control. This in itself would be 500% better than the currect leap in to feet, glitch your model as madly as you can and keep trackbiting.
The thing we should first agree upon is the fact that bunnyhopping can be feature, because even if the devs wanted it in they could not add it because of all the pointless and misjudged hate this issue has caused.
You can hardly want or do not want something you do not know.
<!--quoteo(post=1859051:date=Jul 9 2011, 09:49 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 9 2011, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, yes you and everyone else like you spit straight into people faces everytime you start spreading hate about bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So dramatic. I SPIT in the face of your drama.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People with absolute no knowledge start to believe that it is indeed an exploit, cheat or whatever that breaks their life down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How isn't it? Unintended bug used as an advantage = exploit. Should you, as a player, use exploits? <b>Yes</b>, because you want to win. Should you, as a designer, try to remove exploits? <b>Yes</b>, because you want everyone to have fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has escalated to a point where people like you continuously emerge without any material that you have a clue what you are talking about or any will to listen reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason. The same cannot be said of you. Have you actually addressed anything that I said in my post, in your pointless rant?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is extremely easy to differentiate a blind hater,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a blind hater, a rational hater. You're a blind hater of blind haters, so blind in your hatred that you can't see that I'm a rational hater. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>exploit</b> born by accident is hardly reason for not including or rework it into the next version.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hardly reason for including it into the next version, either. Oh, btw, you just called it an <b>exploit</b>. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So dramatic. Bunnyhop is hardly on the level of <b>electricity</b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tribesmen would not know the difference they would believe it is the reincarnate of the devil much like most of the bunnyhop haters do now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, you're an infidel and you will BURN IN HELL!!!! RAWR!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Button spamming, excessive left and right jumping or mere control over speed are almost definite reasons to assume the posters has no freaking clue. I know it must come as a surprise because those tens of posts were not enough bunnyhopping is not button spamming, infact it takes LESS buttons than strafing to the marine. If you knew how to bunnyhop you would know that left and right mouse movement is very minimal so minimal that it actually looks straight when watched from third person the only reason you would believe it requires massive turning is because you have seen someone else bunnyhop as a third person. Obviously the reason he did come straight was because it would be too EASY to shoot him<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So basically, you're telling me that I'm completely wrong about what bunnyhopping is. (If it's so easy to be wrong about what bunnyhopping <b>is</b>, how can it ever be <b>performed</b> intuitively?) Tell me, then, what is bunnyhopping to you? How is bunnyhopping performed, what does bunnyhopping do, and what benefit does bunnyhopping have?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does this even make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a lot, but I can see that you're trying, so I'll try to understand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You must really look down to the devs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> look down on*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you really do not believe they could animate a forward/backward jumping skulk<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's that got to do with bunnyhopping?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and by jumping I mean really jumping not this retarded upwards exertion that really does not even make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jumping upward does not make sense?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously what are you thinking? Looks stupid even as bad as argument that is it is hardly undoable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, who said that it was undoable? Hell, it should be undoable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just think of a lion or tiger hunting and a simple evolutionary boon in skulks brain that running straight to bullets gets you killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's that got to do with bunnyhopping? That just means you don't run straight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has been many ideas how to make bunnyhop simpler first that everyone can agree on is removing need to have script or use mwheel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, but see, now you're alienating those players who like to use scripts. Just kidding.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet some even consired stripping down to the mere requirement of jumping twice, which would give slight increase in speed that could be used with an increased air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay. As long as it's in the tutorial. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This in itself would be 500% better than the currect leap in to feet, glitch your model as madly as you can and keep trackbiting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who said anyone wanted to keep the current system? Why would there even be a discussion about this if everyone wanted to keep the current system?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing we should first agree upon is the fact that bunnyhopping can be feature, because even if the devs wanted it in they could not add it because of all the pointless and misjudged hate this issue has caused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, <b>do not want</b>, because we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE! Just saying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can hardly want or <b>do not want</b> something you do not know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If another man were to proposition you for sex (I'm assuming, here, that you are straight), would it be unreasonable for you to say that you <b>do not want</b> to have [homosexual] sex? After all, "you can hardly want or <b>do not want</b> something you do not know".
Playing with words, ignoring points, adding witty comments / stupid questions is hardly convincing and isnt it annoying when you dont break the sentences down (oopps!)
And because the last questions was so intriguing I just have to answer it. The answer is I have an idea what it could be like, you have delusions what you believe it is.
Hey, I only worked with what I was given - your rant. If it didn't have much substance to it, well...
Also, breaking down the sentences was the only thing I could do to make sense of your sentences. I can tell that English isn't your first language, but I don't hold it against you. Having said that, if you want to be taken seriously... well, take it seriously.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Electricity vs Bhop - awesome! reddit page one material...
we can dance around this issue for long time, and in the end two things will happen.
1.some people will finally realize how much skill based movement is needed (for aliens) OR 2.someone will make a mod for this
its a required thing, their should be no questions about why it should be added but rather which side should have more mobility. Aliens, require this more than marines - they must be agile. At current state, they are large easy to aim targets.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
I cannot not understand why bunnyhop was even brought into this discussion. Bunnyhop is not possible under the NS2 physics engine <b>by design</b>, so there is no "problem" with BH in NS2.
This thread was started to discuss the perceived problem with jumping in quick succession (especially about Marines), making melee attacks difficult to land. Advocating bunnyhop is almost the exact opposite of the intention of this discussion. Please stop trying to hijack this thread to push for Bunnyhop and turning this discussion into a flame war.
Keep the discussion constructive and focused guys!
Movement in real life is a lot more dynamic than in video games. There's so many things beyond simply moving in direction x that are hard if not impossible to model in a video game today. You can move your limbs independently, hold onto things to make turns, change your center of gravity and do a lot more than just going forward, backward, left, right and jump. So while things like bunny hopping, strafe jumping and and air control are not realistic from a purely physical point of view, they <i>are</i> realistic in that they increase your freedom of movement so that it is closer to what you can do in real life. It makes you feel more like a person instead of a tank.
NurEinMensch: I talked about that in this post, (but someone got offended): <!--quoteo(post=1858616:date=Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This.
I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.
So those things that azimaith and Kuban suggested, or things like it, are a good first pass. Other things I would suggest: - There could be modifier keys for the jump to pull off some of the things you suggest, though you'd probably just use Ctrl+Shift which are already used, to keep the complexity down. - Shift-sprint could also act as more of an accelerate button (up to a maximum speed - the current sprint) - the acceleration would be more gentle, so you could better control your speed. - Another method you could control your speed is, for example, while holding the shift button to sprint, the further down you (your view) are looking (down to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the faster you sprint (this simulates a sprinter's running posture while accelerating); while the further up you are looking (up to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the slower you sprint (this simulates our natural tendency to lean back to decelerate while running). Time spent recovering from sprinting (bringing your weapon back up) should be proportional (rather than constant) to the time required to decelerate to walking speed, to allow us to use short bursts of controlled acceleration while remaining viable in combat.
Movement <b>should</b> be a part of combat. We need more control over our movement, as fine as we can get it, while still being robust and intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what you call bad design worked for years, and still does. your opinion of skill based movement is nothing more than whining, something you hear from people who haven't learned how to do it.I read it, I get it and I simply do not agree with it, its based more on your own opinions or other people complaining about it.
the only thing I will agree with, marines should not have skill based movement but aliens require it - they depend more on mobility which is the reason they are falling behind so much. Their movement is crippled so much, its just not fair.
as for your ideas, the speed increase should be part of the alien movement without the need to push or hold anything. think of it as a passive ability what skill based movement was.
I wouldn't advise accusing someone of "whining" about keeping bunnyhop out (seemed like a post more about ideas to me) then just say aliens need bunnyhop because "it's not fair" lol.
I've got along great without bunnyhop, hasnt affected my k/d at all. In fact, i'd say it's actually improved my k/d, because instead of bouncing along the floor, i move pretty much everywhere on the ceiling as a skulk now, and it almost always leaves me in a better position to ambush a marine, especially if caught by surprise. I haven't noticed a single other person complain about it being missing in-game either, it honestly seems to be about 100-200 hardcore fans of bunnyhop who keep making the same lame arguments/posts FOR bunnyhop.
Please, come up with a better reason to bring it back than the TINY increase in speed (and that feeling of L33tness you get when you see a player who doesnt/can't bunnyhop), vs traveling on the ceiling almost invisible(which even a brand new player can pick up on within minutes of playing the game), and hell maybe i'll post to bring it back too.
<!--quoteo(post=1859410:date=Jul 10 2011, 07:45 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 10 2011, 07:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement in real life is a lot more dynamic than in video games. There's so many things beyond simply moving in direction x that are hard if not impossible to model in a video game today. You can move your limbs independently, hold onto things to make turns, change your center of gravity and do a lot more than just going forward, backward, left, right and jump. So while things like bunny hopping, strafe jumping and and air control are not realistic from a purely physical point of view, they <i>are</i> realistic in that they increase your freedom of movement so that it is closer to what you can do in real life. It makes you feel more like a person instead of a tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are FPS games out there that don't have bh nor jump spam, and I don't feel like a tank playing them. Stick with the argument that you find BH is skillful and fun, and try not to inject realism into the argument. It doesn't really work for the anti-BH argument, and certainly doesn't work for the pro-BH argument. At the end of the day we are all arguing for gameplay we find fun, skillful and non-retarded.
Bunny hopping is being equated to realism now? I would love someone to show me some real war footage of some moron bunny hopping around the war field to "increase his speed" as his charges towards the enemy. Or imagine the movies Alien, and seeing the marines hopping around the rooms like idiots, especially around the Aliens, it would literally make those great movies into JOKES, which is the very impression I got from NS when everyone started bunny hopping. Took a great ATMOSPHERIC game and turned it into a joke.
Meh, I don't know if I should feed this one and I don't think the thread was originally about the whole bhop thing, but I don't like when somebody gets flak for trying to talk about a pretty notable thing.
I can definitely understand where NurEinMench is coming from. I maybe wouldn't use the R-word for it, but I agree with the thing he's trying to point out. I guess I'd say it allows in some ways <i>more natural</i> mindset for moving around.
Instead of imitating the actual realism the HL1 system creates it's own consistent reality that is easier to control with the limited mouse + keyboard input. Once you've got used to it, it allows mindset that is closer to a natural predator than you get with more conservative and in some ways more inconsistent control schemes. The game becomes less about artificial distances like 'running jump' or 'that specific jump with direction X and speed Y to land on Z' and more of a natural flow of adjustable movement patterns, cycles and rhytms, a bit like running or diving.
So yeah, physically not so realistic, but once you get the hang of it, it allows a more lifelike and natural mindset to moving around rather than thinking it through the limitations of usual computer input.
---
As for the marine jump spam thingy:
My FPS still doesn't allow smooth gameplay, so I'm taking just guesses. However, in NS1 I think a big part of the reason why you don't jump as a marine is that it gives skulk a nasty dodging direction under you. It's an absolute pain tracking anything that gets under you because you're forced to aim at very awkward angle to a target than can go to practically any direction and still bite you.
Has something changed in that?
Do the collisions work good enough that you can actually use your body to restrict skulk movement?
Can marines somehow track better at targets under them?
Is it more difficult to actually realize the marine jumping and adjust biting to it? For example is the bitecam different and blocks more visibility?
Does the bite reg properly on jumping targets?
Does the jump work differently? For example can you get faster acceleration from standing pose so that you can do weird leapfrogging instantly from standstill?
My guess would be that such predictable dodging as marine jumping gets a lot less effective once the game gets smoother and more responsive. Unless there's some absolutely crazy leapfrog from standstill I can't see marine going too quickly anywhere before you've got 2-3 bites in, especially without some little magic thingies with HL1 physics and knockback. All this is pure theorycrafting though.
I don't particularly like the idea of slowdowns on bite to patch the issue. As juice said in another thread: it feels like a bit of a quick hack approach that easily leads into more quick hackjobs to fix the issues the first quickfix caused.
<!--quoteo(post=1859476:date=Jul 10 2011, 07:30 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jul 10 2011, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are FPS games out there that don't have bh nor jump spam, and I don't feel like a tank playing them. Stick with the argument that you find BH is skillful and fun, and try not to inject realism into the argument. It doesn't really work for the anti-BH argument, and certainly doesn't work for the pro-BH argument. At the end of the day we are all arguing for gameplay we find fun, skillful and non-retarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying any of these are necessary to achieve skillful dynamic movement, I'm saying they are sufficient.
<!--quoteo(post=1859481:date=Jul 10 2011, 07:58 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 10 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is being equated to realism now? I would love someone to show me some real war footage of some moron bunny hopping around the war field to "increase his speed" as his charges towards the enemy. Or imagine the movies Alien, and seeing the marines hopping around the rooms like idiots, especially around the Aliens, it would literally make those great movies into JOKES, which is the very impression I got from NS when everyone started bunny hopping. Took a great ATMOSPHERIC game and turned it into a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are missing the point. Hint: You show <i>me</i> "some real war footage" where people are forced to move according to the rules of some rigid video game movement system. There isn't, because reality isn't some dumbed down model of itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1859410:date=Jul 10 2011, 03:45 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 10 2011, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement in real life is a lot more dynamic than in video games. There's so many things beyond simply moving in direction x that are hard if not impossible to model in a video game today. You can move your limbs independently, hold onto things to make turns, change your center of gravity and do a lot more than just going forward, backward, left, right and jump. So while things like bunny hopping, strafe jumping and and air control are not realistic from a purely physical point of view, they <i>are</i> realistic in that they increase your freedom of movement so that it is closer to what you can do in real life. It makes you feel more like a person instead of a tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said.
Like in tennis video game, if all you have to do is press a button to smash the ball, then it is certainly easier than real tennis, because in real tennis you have to also watch to the strength of the smash, the grip, the angle of the racket, the timing, the path of racket etc. You cannot simulate same thing without something like a wii controller. Bhop, strafe jumping etc. are trying to add the same amount of skill and challenge to the game by making the movement skill-based.
<!--quoteo(post=1859299:date=Jul 10 2011, 10:30 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cannot not understand why bunnyhop was even brought into this discussion. Bunnyhop is not possible under the NS2 physics engine <b>by design</b>, so there is no "problem" with BH in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 Physics engine is havok/physx and it has nothing to little to do with the movement code. Implementing bhop is not limited by the engine.
I really don't enjoy the whole bunnyhopping thing, but this is more of an issue with the skulk. After all, there is literally no other alien (at the moment) that should have trouble with bunnyhoppers besides them.
<!--quoteo(post=1859086:date=Jul 9 2011, 03:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 9 2011, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Harimau is funny. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This, I had a blast reading your posts!
About bhop, I'm not sure how this can be called a skill. It's like learning how to type your username/passwork fast.. Why work in old, unintentional bugs, into a brand new game that our input is actually considered and listened to? we can help shape it however we want!
The source of the discussion is, as far as I'm concerned. The lack of alien movement (even if you agree with it or not) so why not have upgrades that increase speed, or extra speed in infestation, or a new jump skill, or an activated adrenaline rush that increases your speed to warp 5 for 3 sec.. just come up with whatever you want and ppl will discuss it and spawn new ideas from it.
skill != "i can press these buttons in this order, all the time"
It's about situational awareness, using shadows, using the tools at your disposal. should I leap now, to kill that marine, and depleting my energy? or should I use it to get away, and come back later?
now. <b>ON TOPIC</b> With the resent changes with slowdown on hit I find the jump spam far less annoying. I can more often than not kill a jumping marine.
however, for good or bad, it forces the skulk to play even more of an ambusher because the lmg is deadly with the slow effect in a head on charge.
Comments
I like that general attitude that
'the first bite is the most important one'
That is generally true for things like crocs, snakes, and sharks when dealing with prey closer to their size.
Nailing that first bite should draw blood, inject poison whatever.
It wounds and disheartens the prey.
It will train people to bite spam less as skulks.
Also great point on the mini-map I have had encounters recently where I swore the marine knew i was behind him. What is the range on the power nodes so i don't perform near them.
'the first bite is the most important one'
...
It will train people to bite spam less as skulks.
Also great point on the mini-map I have had encounters recently where I swore the marine knew i was behind him. What is the range on the power nodes so i don't perform near them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My skill went way up with Skulk once I stopped running and randomly biting and started to always use leap/bite and only bite when i was close to the marine versus chasing and biting in a circle, and learned to stay off the ground when attacking.
People need to spend more time hiding in vents under floors on the ceiling and less time randomly chomping at air and they will find that the skulk is one of the best classes even late game.
I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and that it requires extraordinaly effort or talent to achieve. Trust me it does not, although unintuitive it is something you do every time you move, it gets better very quickly in matter of minutes and scales up to the 50hours played. The difference between 1h played and 50h is hardly noticable, it is your creativeness that eventually leads to your kind of bunnyhob (yes everyone creates some own habits). Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######, we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!. Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about.
Edit: Nevermind, after playing for a few hours it's pretty much awful, ESPECIALLY on aliens. I mean, I realize that this was an experimental thing to put in which I could somewhat understand for marines, but on aliens?!?! This idea is almost as bad as the cysts.
It remind me a lot of the threads that were in NS1 /me rolls eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference being that in NS1 bunny hopping was actually skill based so the discussion was worth having. Jump spamming in NS2 isn't skill based so it shouldn't give you an advantage. I don't see how anyone could argue that it should stay as it is.
Btw, I'm totally against slowdown on hit. That, if anything, does restrict movement and can be very frustrating at times.
Btw, I'm totally against slowdown on hit. That, if anything, does restrict movement and can be very frustrating at times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good players don't randomly spam jump. I time my jumps to jump over aliens, to get further distance when going backwards, and going on rails. In fact, this patch really didn't change much.
There's nothing wrong with sometimes limiting movement, it would be just as "frustrating" to an alien to be unable to close for whatever reason as it would be for marines to be unable to get away. There's a happy balance, categorically dismissing anything that moderates movement as bad seems silly.
I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and that it requires extraordinaly effort or talent to achieve. Trust me it does not, although unintuitive it is something you do every time you move, it gets better very quickly in matter of minutes and scales up to the 50hours played. The difference between 1h played and 50h is hardly noticable, it is your creativeness that eventually leads to your kind of bunnyhob (yes everyone creates some own habits). Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######, we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!. Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First: Wut.
Second: You sound like I just kicked your dog. That may be an apt analogy, because bunnyhopping seems to be your "pet exploit". Sorry, bro, but nothing I said was unreasonable. Or is it that that makes you more mad?
Now,
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"I fear you are under the impression that bunnyhop is some kind of godly skill and blah blah"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
No. It's just a movement exploit from an old engine that failed to (or chose not to) approximate real-world physics. It was a happy accident (for some) that it allowed you to gain a speed advantage (and thereby gain greater control over your speed), which supposedly resulted in deeper gameplay. If it is for some reason put in, then I'll learn it and use it because I want the advantage - as a competitor, that is an imperative. But it shouldn't be put in, because it is not intuitive (jumping around, left and right, to gain speed?) and as unhappy side-effect, also looks stupid - it is bad design.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######,"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Prove it. It's all well and good to say "you're wrong", but tell me HOW I'm wrong. Tell me HOW you can make bunnyhopping MORE INTUITIVE, MORE REALISTIC, MORE PROFESSIONAL, and SIMPLER TO USE. And don't dodge the issue by saying some bull###### like "that's up to UWE!". They're only human, like you and I.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A game that does not need bunnyhop.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Its about time you (in general) diviated from your satanic beliefs and stopped being afraid being the next "sacrifice" for opening your eyes and go and find out what the bunnyhop is really about."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
PRAISE THE LOORRDDDDD!
or alternatively,
Wut.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"Sprouting nonsense about it cannot be made intuatitive, made look realistic / professional or simpler to use is absolute bull######,"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Prove it. It's all well and good to say "you're wrong", but tell me HOW I'm wrong. Tell me HOW you can make bunnyhopping MORE INTUITIVE, MORE REALISTIC, MORE PROFESSIONAL, and SIMPLER TO USE. And don't dodge the issue by saying some bull###### like "that's up to UWE!". They're only human, like you and I.
<!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro-->"we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A game that does not need bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, yes you and everyone else like you spit straight into people faces everytime you start spreading hate about bunnyhop. People with absolute no knowledge start to believe that it is indeed an exploit, cheat or whatever that breaks their life down. This has escalated to a point where people like you continuously emerge without any material that you have a clue what you are talking about or any will to listen reason. It is extremely easy to differentiate a blind hater, exploit born by accident is hardly reason for not including or rework it into the next version. Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft. The tribesmen would not know the difference they would believe it is the reincarnate of the devil much like most of the bunnyhop haters do now.
Button spamming, excessive left and right jumping or mere control over speed are almost definite reasons to assume the posters has no freaking clue. I know it must come as a surprise because those tens of posts were not enough bunnyhopping is not button spamming, infact it takes LESS buttons than strafing to the marine. If you knew how to bunnyhop you would know that left and right mouse movement is very minimal so minimal that it actually looks straight when watched from third person the only reason you would believe it requires massive turning is because you have seen someone else bunnyhop as a third person. Obviously the reason he did come straight was because it would be too EASY to shoot him does this even make sense?
You must really look down to the devs if you really do not believe they could animate a forward/backward jumping skulk and by jumping I mean really jumping not this retarded upwards exertion that really does not even make sense. Seriously what are you thinking? Looks stupid even as bad as argument that is it is hardly undoable. Just think of a lion or tiger hunting and a simple evolutionary boon in skulks brain that running straight to bullets gets you killed.
There has been many ideas how to make bunnyhop simpler first that everyone can agree on is removing need to have script or use mwheel. I bet some even consired stripping down to the mere requirement of jumping twice, which would give slight increase in speed that could be used with an increased air control. This in itself would be 500% better than the currect leap in to feet, glitch your model as madly as you can and keep trackbiting.
The thing we should first agree upon is the fact that bunnyhopping can be feature, because even if the devs wanted it in they could not add it because of all the pointless and misjudged hate this issue has caused.
You can hardly want or do not want something you do not know.
<!--quoteo(post=1859051:date=Jul 9 2011, 09:49 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 9 2011, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, yes you and everyone else like you spit straight into people faces everytime you start spreading hate about bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So dramatic. I SPIT in the face of your drama.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People with absolute no knowledge start to believe that it is indeed an exploit, cheat or whatever that breaks their life down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How isn't it? Unintended bug used as an advantage = exploit.
Should you, as a player, use exploits? <b>Yes</b>, because you want to win.
Should you, as a designer, try to remove exploits? <b>Yes</b>, because you want everyone to have fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has escalated to a point where people like you continuously emerge without any material that you have a clue what you are talking about or any will to listen reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm perfectly willing to listen to reason. The same cannot be said of you. Have you actually addressed anything that I said in my post, in your pointless rant?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is extremely easy to differentiate a blind hater,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a blind hater, a rational hater. You're a blind hater of blind haters, so blind in your hatred that you can't see that I'm a rational hater. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>exploit</b> born by accident is hardly reason for not including or rework it into the next version.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly reason for including it into the next version, either.
Oh, btw, you just called it an <b>exploit</b>. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So dramatic. Bunnyhop is hardly on the level of <b>electricity</b>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tribesmen would not know the difference they would believe it is the reincarnate of the devil much like most of the bunnyhop haters do now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you're an infidel and you will BURN IN HELL!!!! RAWR!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Button spamming, excessive left and right jumping or mere control over speed are almost definite reasons to assume the posters has no freaking clue. I know it must come as a surprise because those tens of posts were not enough bunnyhopping is not button spamming, infact it takes LESS buttons than strafing to the marine. If you knew how to bunnyhop you would know that left and right mouse movement is very minimal so minimal that it actually looks straight when watched from third person the only reason you would believe it requires massive turning is because you have seen someone else bunnyhop as a third person. Obviously the reason he did come straight was because it would be too EASY to shoot him<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically, you're telling me that I'm completely wrong about what bunnyhopping is. (If it's so easy to be wrong about what bunnyhopping <b>is</b>, how can it ever be <b>performed</b> intuitively?)
Tell me, then, what is bunnyhopping to you? How is bunnyhopping performed, what does bunnyhopping do, and what benefit does bunnyhopping have?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does this even make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a lot, but I can see that you're trying, so I'll try to understand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You must really look down to the devs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
look down on*
What's that got to do with bunnyhopping?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and by jumping I mean really jumping not this retarded upwards exertion that really does not even make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping upward does not make sense?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously what are you thinking? Looks stupid even as bad as argument that is it is hardly undoable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, who said that it was undoable?
Hell, it should be undoable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just think of a lion or tiger hunting and a simple evolutionary boon in skulks brain that running straight to bullets gets you killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's that got to do with bunnyhopping? That just means you don't run straight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has been many ideas how to make bunnyhop simpler first that everyone can agree on is removing need to have script or use mwheel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but see, now you're alienating those players who like to use scripts.
Just kidding.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet some even consired stripping down to the mere requirement of jumping twice, which would give slight increase in speed that could be used with an increased air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. As long as it's in the tutorial. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This in itself would be 500% better than the currect leap in to feet, glitch your model as madly as you can and keep trackbiting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said anyone wanted to keep the current system? Why would there even be a discussion about this if everyone wanted to keep the current system?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing we should first agree upon is the fact that bunnyhopping can be feature, because even if the devs wanted it in they could not add it because of all the pointless and misjudged hate this issue has caused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, <b>do not want</b>, because we have a NEW GAME ON PROGRESS HERE!
Just saying.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can hardly want or <b>do not want</b> something you do not know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If another man were to proposition you for sex (I'm assuming, here, that you are straight), would it be unreasonable for you to say that you <b>do not want</b> to have [homosexual] sex? After all, "you can hardly want or <b>do not want</b> something you do not know".
<img src="http://www.whs.sioux-city.k12.ia.us/pages/uploaded_images/drama.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And because the last questions was so intriguing I just have to answer it. The answer is I have an idea what it could be like, you have delusions what you believe it is.
Also, breaking down the sentences was the only thing I could do to make sense of your sentences. I can tell that English isn't your first language, but I don't hold it against you. Having said that, if you want to be taken seriously... well, take it seriously.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely if electricy was discovered by accident but it gave life so much more meaning and joy it would not be banished just because majority of tribes would consider it a witchcraft.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Electricity vs Bhop - awesome! reddit page one material...
1.some people will finally realize how much skill based movement is needed (for aliens)
OR
2.someone will make a mod for this
its a required thing, their should be no questions about why it should be added but rather which side should have more mobility.
Aliens, require this more than marines - they must be agile. At current state, they are large easy to aim targets.
So I guess what you're saying is, we shouldn't dance around this issue, but bunnyhop around this issue instead.
This thread was started to discuss the perceived problem with jumping in quick succession (especially about Marines), making melee attacks difficult to land. Advocating bunnyhop is almost the exact opposite of the intention of this discussion. Please stop trying to hijack this thread to push for Bunnyhop and turning this discussion into a flame war.
Keep the discussion constructive and focused guys!
I talked about that in this post, (but someone got offended):
<!--quoteo(post=1858616:date=Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 8 2011, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This.
I don't buy the idea of re-implementing bunny hopping (which is to control your speed, if I understand it correctly) and extreme air control. Air control approximates how you would control your jumps the moment before you perform the jump IRL, and is necessary to approximate because of the inadequacy of all current control schemes (keyboard and mouse, in this case) to give us fast, realistic and intuitive control, so some degree is good (if we did have a working control scheme that would allow us to not require this, it would be even better). Excessive air control however looks jarring and amateurish, in a professional game that is not overall intended to be cartoony. Bunny hopping is a different sort of beast, since it gives players the ability to control their speed between their regular walking speed and the maximum speed bonus given by bunny hopping. However, the method of control is unrealistic, unintuitive, looks amateurish again, spammy and entirely arbitrary. Its deliberate inclusion would be a case of complexity for the sake of complexity while actually seeking depth, like pulling off an arbitrarily convoluted sequence of key-presses to perform a special move in a fighting game, because being able to do so takes "skill" - bull######. That's just bad design.
So those things that azimaith and Kuban suggested, or things like it, are a good first pass. Other things I would suggest:
- There could be modifier keys for the jump to pull off some of the things you suggest, though you'd probably just use Ctrl+Shift which are already used, to keep the complexity down.
- Shift-sprint could also act as more of an accelerate button (up to a maximum speed - the current sprint) - the acceleration would be more gentle, so you could better control your speed.
- Another method you could control your speed is, for example, while holding the shift button to sprint, the further down you (your view) are looking (down to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the faster you sprint (this simulates a sprinter's running posture while accelerating); while the further up you are looking (up to an acceptable point, say 40 degrees), the slower you sprint (this simulates our natural tendency to lean back to decelerate while running). Time spent recovering from sprinting (bringing your weapon back up) should be proportional (rather than constant) to the time required to decelerate to walking speed, to allow us to use short bursts of controlled acceleration while remaining viable in combat.
Movement <b>should</b> be a part of combat. We need more control over our movement, as fine as we can get it, while still being robust and intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what you call bad design worked for years, and still does. your opinion of skill based movement is nothing more than whining, something you hear from people who haven't learned how to do it.I read it, I get it and I simply do not agree with it, its based more on your own opinions or other people complaining about it.
the only thing I will agree with, marines should not have skill based movement but aliens require it - they depend more on mobility which is the reason they are falling behind so much. Their movement is crippled so much, its just not fair.
as for your ideas, the speed increase should be part of the alien movement without the need to push or hold anything. think of it as a passive ability what skill based movement was.
I've got along great without bunnyhop, hasnt affected my k/d at all. In fact, i'd say it's actually improved my k/d, because instead of bouncing along the floor, i move pretty much everywhere on the ceiling as a skulk now, and it almost always leaves me in a better position to ambush a marine, especially if caught by surprise.
I haven't noticed a single other person complain about it being missing in-game either, it honestly seems to be about 100-200 hardcore fans of bunnyhop who keep making the same lame arguments/posts FOR bunnyhop.
Please, come up with a better reason to bring it back than the TINY increase in speed (and that feeling of L33tness you get when you see a player who doesnt/can't bunnyhop), vs traveling on the ceiling almost invisible(which even a brand new player can pick up on within minutes of playing the game), and hell maybe i'll post to bring it back too.
There are FPS games out there that don't have bh nor jump spam, and I don't feel like a tank playing them. Stick with the argument that you find BH is skillful and fun, and try not to inject realism into the argument. It doesn't really work for the anti-BH argument, and certainly doesn't work for the pro-BH argument. At the end of the day we are all arguing for gameplay we find fun, skillful and non-retarded.
I can definitely understand where NurEinMench is coming from. I maybe wouldn't use the R-word for it, but I agree with the thing he's trying to point out. I guess I'd say it allows in some ways <i>more natural</i> mindset for moving around.
Instead of imitating the actual realism the HL1 system creates it's own consistent reality that is easier to control with the limited mouse + keyboard input. Once you've got used to it, it allows mindset that is closer to a natural predator than you get with more conservative and in some ways more inconsistent control schemes. The game becomes less about artificial distances like 'running jump' or 'that specific jump with direction X and speed Y to land on Z' and more of a natural flow of adjustable movement patterns, cycles and rhytms, a bit like running or diving.
So yeah, physically not so realistic, but once you get the hang of it, it allows a more lifelike and natural mindset to moving around rather than thinking it through the limitations of usual computer input.
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As for the marine jump spam thingy:
My FPS still doesn't allow smooth gameplay, so I'm taking just guesses. However, in NS1 I think a big part of the reason why you don't jump as a marine is that it gives skulk a nasty dodging direction under you. It's an absolute pain tracking anything that gets under you because you're forced to aim at very awkward angle to a target than can go to practically any direction and still bite you.
Has something changed in that?
Do the collisions work good enough that you can actually use your body to restrict skulk movement?
Can marines somehow track better at targets under them?
Is it more difficult to actually realize the marine jumping and adjust biting to it? For example is the bitecam different and blocks more visibility?
Does the bite reg properly on jumping targets?
Does the jump work differently? For example can you get faster acceleration from standing pose so that you can do weird leapfrogging instantly from standstill?
My guess would be that such predictable dodging as marine jumping gets a lot less effective once the game gets smoother and more responsive. Unless there's some absolutely crazy leapfrog from standstill I can't see marine going too quickly anywhere before you've got 2-3 bites in, especially without some little magic thingies with HL1 physics and knockback. All this is pure theorycrafting though.
I don't particularly like the idea of slowdowns on bite to patch the issue. As juice said in another thread: it feels like a bit of a quick hack approach that easily leads into more quick hackjobs to fix the issues the first quickfix caused.
I'm not saying any of these are necessary to achieve skillful dynamic movement, I'm saying they are sufficient.
<!--quoteo(post=1859481:date=Jul 10 2011, 07:58 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 10 2011, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is being equated to realism now? I would love someone to show me some real war footage of some moron bunny hopping around the war field to "increase his speed" as his charges towards the enemy. Or imagine the movies Alien, and seeing the marines hopping around the rooms like idiots, especially around the Aliens, it would literally make those great movies into JOKES, which is the very impression I got from NS when everyone started bunny hopping. Took a great ATMOSPHERIC game and turned it into a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are missing the point. Hint: You show <i>me</i> "some real war footage" where people are forced to move according to the rules of some rigid video game movement system. There isn't, because reality isn't some dumbed down model of itself.
Well said.
Like in tennis video game, if all you have to do is press a button to smash the ball, then it is certainly easier than real tennis, because in real tennis you have to also watch to the strength of the smash, the grip, the angle of the racket, the timing, the path of racket etc. You cannot simulate same thing without something like a wii controller. Bhop, strafe jumping etc. are trying to add the same amount of skill and challenge to the game by making the movement skill-based.
<!--quoteo(post=1859299:date=Jul 10 2011, 10:30 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 10 2011, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cannot not understand why bunnyhop was even brought into this discussion. Bunnyhop is not possible under the NS2 physics engine <b>by design</b>, so there is no "problem" with BH in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 Physics engine is havok/physx and it has nothing to little to do with the movement code. Implementing bhop is not limited by the engine.
I really don't enjoy the whole bunnyhopping thing, but this is more of an issue with the skulk. After all, there is literally no other alien (at the moment) that should have trouble with bunnyhoppers besides them.
This, I had a blast reading your posts!
About bhop, I'm not sure how this can be called a skill. It's like learning how to type your username/passwork fast..
Why work in old, unintentional bugs, into a brand new game that our input is actually considered and listened to? we can help shape it however we want!
The source of the discussion is, as far as I'm concerned. The lack of alien movement (even if you agree with it or not) so why not have upgrades that increase speed, or extra speed in infestation, or a new jump skill, or an activated adrenaline rush that increases your speed to warp 5 for 3 sec.. just come up with whatever you want and ppl will discuss it and spawn new ideas from it.
skill != "i can press these buttons in this order, all the time"
It's about situational awareness, using shadows, using the tools at your disposal.
should I leap now, to kill that marine, and depleting my energy? or should I use it to get away,
and come back later?
now. <b>ON TOPIC</b>
With the resent changes with slowdown on hit I find the jump spam far less annoying. I can more often than not kill a jumping marine.
however, for good or bad, it forces the skulk to play even more of an ambusher because the lmg is deadly with the slow effect in a head on charge.