<!--quoteo(post=1860406:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:49 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jul 13 2011, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just for the hell of it I uploaded a small snippet of fade blinking, it's by no means good compared to some of the good fades out there but I already had it in a fraps video so it's convenient. About 4 seconds in is where I start.
Fade movement looks really beautiful in NS1. And for the fade it makes total sense to have this kind of mechanics, to have short contacts with the ground and to blink between them. Don't know for the other units, but for the fade it looks right, no ?
<!--quoteo(post=1860448:date=Jul 13 2011, 04:18 PM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ Jul 13 2011, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The former requires you to learn, practice and master the movements, the latter puts everyone on the same level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <tacticalgamer hat> The former is exploiting game engine mechanics to give yourself an advantage over people who don't exploit and gets you banned, the latter is not.
I'm not a stranger to competitive play, I used to be in the Dystopia Global League and was a former CAL player back in the MOHAA days. I left a lot of that kind of bullcrap behind. I got tired of the exact stuff that Temphage talks about. It rots communities from within.
There can be competitiveness without doing all sorts of bhopping/crackjumping/what you want to call it and assholish stuff. TG proves it, for example, we have the top 2 rankings on TWL's BFBC2 ladder, one for 6v6 conquest at 28/12, and the other for 8v8 at 31/13.
We used to have a large, rockin' NS1 server but the population waned a lot. The same rules as all our other games were on it, and it was filled with regulars. Same as what Temphage said, we would eventually attract someone who would start crackjumping around, swearing, and then demand that his way was right because he was on the ENSL and "knew how to actually play and didn't need to hold back."
It was always funny to see people who were supposedly highly ranked on the ENSL fail miserably at playing once you forced them to adopt teamwork tactics and made them work with a team, and took away their bhopping and map glitching. Either hat or they'd simply start cussing us out and get banned.
IMO the only reason why people are harping on bhopping/wigglewalking/pancaking/other stuff is because they have been using it so long it's a crutch to them. They CAN'T play anymore without that, it's unnatural. They never developed ambush tactics or thinking many moves ahead or planning strategies out at the start of the game, they put all their effort on game exploits and "skill".
<!--quoteo(post=1860439:date=Jul 13 2011, 08:56 PM:name=eisiger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eisiger @ Jul 13 2011, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the difference between bunnyhopping to circumvent the engine's limited speed while running, and just increasing the players natural running speed to match it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends on how the fast running is implemented. If you just add skulk max speed, it's quite different.
Purely speed wise bhopping is a lot about trading unpredictability for speed. While bhopping you're forced to move in rather predictable patterns which are easy to track. If you want to be unpredictable and dodge as many bullets as you can you're usually better off on the ground even with the present 'slow' ground speed. On ground anyone can do the nasty ADADADA-strafe movement which not only is difficult to track, but also messes up the hitboxes to some extend because the netcode prediction can't handle constant changes in movement direction. Without bhop in NS1 you'd see a lot more of that desync, so it kind of makes up for the netcode weakness in some ways. In NS2 I'm not sure how well the netcode can handle the desync, but I believe it's at least somewhat related to lag compensation that most games, including NS2 use.
Also bhopping isn't instant max speed as the usual player movement. Even with extremely good execution it takes a couple of hops to reach the max speed. This adds quite a lot of challenges in teamwork and timing as you have to decide between preserving the full speed and waiting for better timings. Obviously the acceleration isn't enormously long, but enough to give the marine a couple of extra bullets if you aren't moving at full speed right away.
---
In addition to differences in speed, bhop relates itself to air control and air curve quite a lot. Simply increasing the player speed wouldn't give players the ability to execute as precise jumps and movement control as the NS1 bhop system does. It's a very notable difference when you're for example trying to navigate some objects in ceiling, jump constantly on railings or dive a longer distance at some target below you.
I tend to think the bhop is also a pretty notable balance feature. If you just add speed to the vanilla skulk, newbie marines are in trouble with the rapid speed skulks and general game speed of their level. With bhop the game speed and marine play difficulty go up as the skill level rises so that newbies can manage their game, but also top tier players find challenge in fighting the oppositing skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1860456:date=Jul 13 2011, 09:49 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 13 2011, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade movement looks really beautiful in NS1. And for the fade it makes total sense to have this kind of mechanics, to have short contacts with the ground and to blink between them. Don't know for the other units, but for the fade it looks right, no ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the problems are more for the 3rd person animation. Many people don't like the 3rd person look of fade 'flying around', no matter how nice it feels on 1st person.
First person skulk is absolutely wonderful too. I can still recognize some players by their first person skulking because everyone has a bit of their own movement patterns and styles. It kind of adds some extra personality to the play.
<!--quoteo(post=1860414:date=Jul 13 2011, 07:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jul 13 2011, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have always supported the idea of advanced player movement of some sort, but we still want to see if it can be done without coding in exact NS1 style BH mechanics. Yes, there are a lot of people who say there can't be any mechanic as good as BH, and people who say if BH is NOT in the game NS2 will suck, and people who say if it IS in the game, NS2 will suck. I don't want to get into that discussion right now.
What I can say is this:
We want more mobility for players in general, especially the skulk. We are looking into more air control for all players, and will be doing more side by side comparisons with NS1 and NS2 to see if we can get that same "feel" back. Additionally, we have some ideas that we are going to try out regarding advanced movement abilities for the skulk, that will be built into the gameplay mechanics for everyone to see, but require skill and practice to pull off the timing and execution in order to get speed/distance boosts. And we are hoping to incorporate the use of vertical surfaces more as part of it. Currently the skulk is largely played on the ground with leap, and only occasionally uses the walls for ambush purposes now and then. We really want his ability to use all surfaces to factor into his overall mobility.
There is a good chance that leap may end up going back to a hive 2 ability, rather then being there at game start. Please, don't everyone start freaking out, its just being discussed, and would only be done once the skulk has been given more maneuverability in other ways.
As far as the actual topic itself goes, we also are not happy with the jump spam on the marine side, and are looking at solutions. We generally hate to impede player movement as a solution, but in this case we may need to add some slowdown/height drop when spamming the jump key, particularly when strafe jumping. NS1 had something similar, though its not yet clear if that would fully solve the problem.
Anyway, player movement as a whole, for all player classes is important to us, and we still have a lot of plans to improve and enhance in that area, though of course there is only so much we can do at once.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, this post made me so happy. I'm glad to see devs wanting to make their game hard to master rather than some super simplified game for the sake of accessibility. It's also nice to see you are trying to come up with new mechanics.
As far as I can tell the main points about bunny hop are:
1. It allows you to close down enemies quicker. 2. It allows you to move around quicker, therefore being harder to hit. 3. It allows you to have more control even while in mid-air.
and it scales well with ability. The better your timing and movement, the better you are at these things.
I'm sure these things can be part of other movement mechanics as well.
I looked at a few other games regarding a jump spam solution and the main two things that are used seem to be:
1. Slowing down upon landing for a second or so. If you press jump within this time because you are moving slowly you will jump almost straight up. 2. No ability to fire while in mid-air. Normally the gun just drops down (similar to sprint) and you can't fire until you hit the ground.
Some games have both of these.
Just while I'm posting about movement, something that's been bugging me is sprinting. When you let go of sprint there is a delay of about half a second in which you cannot shoot. I really don't like this as it removes control from the player. I'd much rather see a stamina bar (with slower normal speed when low on stamina, to stop marines just rushing in without penalty), but you are able to shoot as soon as you let go of sprint. I feel like these times where you take control away from the player make it feel clunky and there are better ways to give disadvantages to sprinting.
<!--quoteo(post=1860461:date=Jul 13 2011, 04:56 PM:name=Bisclavret)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bisclavret @ Jul 13 2011, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><tacticalgamer hat> The former is exploiting game engine mechanics to give yourself an advantage over people who don't exploit and gets you banned, the latter is not.
I'm not a stranger to competitive play, I used to be in the Dystopia Global League and was a former CAL player back in the MOHAA days. I left a lot of that kind of bullcrap behind. I got tired of the exact stuff that Temphage talks about. It rots communities from within.
There can be competitiveness without doing all sorts of bhopping/crackjumping/what you want to call it and assholish stuff. TG proves it, for example, we have the top 2 rankings on TWL's BFBC2 ladder, one for 6v6 conquest at 28/12, and the other for 8v8 at 31/13.
We used to have a large, rockin' NS1 server but the population waned a lot. The same rules as all our other games were on it, and it was filled with regulars. Same as what Temphage said, we would eventually attract someone who would start crackjumping around, swearing, and then demand that his way was right because he was on the ENSL and "knew how to actually play and didn't need to hold back."
It was always funny to see people who were supposedly highly ranked on the ENSL fail miserably at playing once you forced them to adopt teamwork tactics and made them work with a team, and took away their bhopping and map glitching. Either hat or they'd simply start cussing us out and get banned.
IMO the only reason why people are harping on bhopping/wigglewalking/pancaking/other stuff is because they have been using it so long it's a crutch to them. They CAN'T play anymore without that, it's unnatural. They never developed ambush tactics or thinking many moves ahead or planning strategies out at the start of the game, they put all their effort on game exploits and "skill".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused, TG never banned people for being too good. I've never seen someone get banned for bhopping, spawn camping, shotgun rushing, etc on that server ever. In fact, I was a regular on that server and I was one of the so called "competitive players" that temphage was talking about. It's pretty hilarious to see the entire competitive community get typecasted by a very small minority of its players.
<!--quoteo(post=1860476:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:04 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 13 2011, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm confused, TG never banned people for being too good. I've never seen someone get banned for bhopping, spawn camping, shotgun rushing, etc on that server ever. In fact, I was a regular on that server and I was one of the so called "competitive players" that temphage was talking about. It's pretty hilarious to see the entire competitive community get typecasted by a very small minority of its players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then as a member of the community you would have remembered signing <a href="http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-general-discussion/73796-read-sign-tgns-primer.html" target="_blank">this</a> (infact i found your 'agree') and tying it in with the community primer in general. Bhopping breaks one of of those tenets, and I remember several times where Aeroripper or Wyz would ban people for it. Perhaps not fades because those were hard to tell, but certainly marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1860483:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:32 PM:name=Bisclavret)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bisclavret @ Jul 13 2011, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then as a member of the community you would have remembered signing <a href="http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-general-discussion/73796-read-sign-tgns-primer.html" target="_blank">this</a> (infact i found your 'agree') and tying it in with the community primer in general. Bhopping breaks one of of those tenets, and I remember several times where Aeroripper or Wyz would ban people for it. Perhaps not fades because those were hard to tell, but certainly marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played on TG for years since it was probably one of the best public servers around.
I've played with Aeroripper/Wyz a ton and they're both pretty stand-up guys, never banned anyone for spawn camping/bunnyhopping. The worst I've seen them ban for is banning people who didn't listen to commanders, which I totally understand.
<!--quoteo(post=1854072:date=Jun 18 2011, 03:52 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 18 2011, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played in a few games now where the marines have just spammed jump while strafing left and right and it can be very difficult to hit them (esp. as skulk). It's really frustrating to play against and it looks pretty daft too. I think it'd be much better if jumping didn't give you any advantage in combat, but I don't really have any ideas of how to fix it at the moment other than slowing it down or taking it away. I don't really know if that's the right approach.
I'm hoping someone else has a better idea of how to stop jump spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> increase area of effect of skulkbite to the height a marine can jump. this way, you still get their feet until they jump ONTO or OVER you, which <b>is</b> skill.
Because skulks cant look a milimeter upwards, so the heigher aoe will hit the marine even while trying to jump over you...
The problem is the speed, skulks need to be a bit faster(increase leap energy cost as tradeoff for higher movement speed) so a small move in the wrong direction doesnt mean death.
The closecombat jumping makes marines less predictable in addition to the performance problems. (at least i often have some stutter in fights)
<!--quoteo(post=1860293:date=Jul 13 2011, 12:21 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 13 2011, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just came up with a ingenious system that allows you to have more options without bhop or other non-intuitive, stay with me.
you can have abilities, or skills, that do different things. Let's say we give the skulk the following abilities: <ul><li>move forward</li><li>strafe left</li><li>strafe right</li><li>move backward</li><li>jump</li><li>bite</li><li>parasite</li><li>leap</li></ul>
combine this with mouse movements and other effects like maybe wall-walking?
Now all the abilities will be mapped to the keyboard for easy execution, maybe W for forward and so on. (just brainstorming here) now you have all these options just a key press away and it's up to the user to pick and choose from all there options, that gives us a infinite combination of "combos" that you have to learn how and when to use correctly to maximize their effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's hilarious to hear you talk about "a infinite combination of 'combos'", considering bhopping fits your definition exactly. Only strafing, jump, and mouse movements are required.
I think it's patently ridiculous to blame "competitive" players for killing NS. Here is my solution to your complaints of players who walk into your hive and start spawn camping: get better. You could parasite marines so they don't walk around the map unmolested and into your hive. You could ambush him before he gets into the hive room. You could go lerk on top of the hive and spore him with impunity and swoop down for the kill when he's distracted. You could get a gorge to spit from a distance. You could rally your team to attack as a group instead of walking in one at a time. There's a whole spectrum of in-game responses that could be taken that don't even require the technical skill that you all seem to disdain so much, yet the first resort of many players is to call for out-of-game solutions. It is not the job of the opposing team to go easy on you. If the conduct of a very small subset of players is enough to kill a game, then every game would be dead. All this talk of "competitive" players killing the game is just scapegoating, pure and simple.
I have no idea what Bisclavret is talking about. I'm pretty sure TG members bhopped themselves on a regular basis, and indeed, they fielded a competitive team that did pretty well for a while.
Every post arguing against bunnyhopping has been at best whine and at worst spiteful and bitter. Bunnyhopping worked because it gave something for the people who wished to improve their skill at the game beyond simple tactics and forethought something to reach for. People arguing that bunnyhopping is a "crutch" and using the word skill in quotation marks in an ironic fashion need to stop talking, and not because i say so, but because their vitriol seeps from the pores of their posts.
I remember high level competitive play in NS1. It was beautiful. It was fast paced, exciting and diverse. It had everything a player could want in a first person shooter and was quite simply amazing. Bunnyhopping allowed skilled aliens to throw off marine aim and close the distance without leap, and was NOT A ###### EXPLOIT. It was a *originally* a bug in the movement system of the hl1 engine. It was *intentionally* left in NS1 because it fit. It fit with the game and was recognised as improving the game overall and enhancing the feel of NS1. To those crying "exploit", seriously, stop talking. If you want an example of why you need advanced movement mechanics and what happens to a game when those are removed, read up about dolphin diving and battlefield 2. At the start of BF2's competitive life, there was a "bug" that allowed a skilled player to move across the battlefield in such a manner as to look like he was constantly diving onto the ground and getting up. It became a staple of competitive play and allowed players to dodge enemy fire. That mechanic was removed. It decimated the BF2 competitive scene and ended that game's chance of ever becoming a competitor on the e-gaming scene. NS2, if balanced right, can make it. But not if the dev's listen to the whining and complaining of those who are unwilling, unable, and unskilled to the point that they cannot master something as simple as bunnyhopping. I hope to god that the devs reimpliment bunnyhopping into NS2 and that everyone here, in this thread, who has complained and moaned and cried about this rages so hard they literally have an aneurysm while i lock on to their face with my skulk jaws after bunnyhopping halfway across the map to gimp them specifically.
<!--quoteo(post=1860509:date=Jul 14 2011, 12:49 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 14 2011, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no idea what Bisclavret is talking about. I'm pretty sure TG members bhopped themselves on a regular basis, and indeed, they fielded a competitive team that did pretty well for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just on a quick note I have absolutely no idea what the ENSL part of his post is either. It's not at least any well known story or regular occurrence as far as I can tell. I can certainly see some competetive player ending up on a no-bhop server (I thought TG allowed it) and being a bit confused and taking his time and frustration to adjust, but that's probably not the biggest story of a day.
---
And yeah, bhop is the 'unlimited combo' thing exactly. It allows me to switch smoothly from one thing to another in one somewhat natural action. Without it you're usually stuck with a far more discrete movements and control scheme (Which is very notable at NS2 atm). As it is in NS1 bhop creates the connection between the skulk abilities and weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1860467:date=Jul 13 2011, 10:34 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 13 2011, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, this post made me so happy. I'm glad to see devs wanting to make their game hard to master rather than some super simplified game for the sake of accessibility. It's also nice to see you are trying to come up with new mechanics.
As far as I can tell the main points about bunny hop are:
1. It allows you to close down enemies quicker. 2. It allows you to move around quicker, therefore being harder to hit. 3. It allows you to have more control even while in mid-air.
and it scales well with ability. The better your timing and movement, the better you are at these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's a bit difficult to simplify to 3 points as it works on physics layer of NS1. Once you get the hang of it, it starts being everywhere and affecting a lot of stuff in smaller or bigger ways.
2. Is pretty much wrong though. Bhop doesn't really make you harder to hit, not at least against players of equal skill. It's a very predictable motion so you'll get tracked accurately. If you want to be difficult to hit, you're usually better off on the ground. Surely bhop can also make itself difficult to hit, but it's a lot more situational than just going fast.
If someone seriously wants to understand bhop, I'd recommend loading NS1 and giving it a try and/or watching some old competetive HLTV demos and trying to understand how the skulking and fading go.
<!--quoteo(post=1860509:date=Jul 14 2011, 12:49 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 14 2011, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hilarious to hear you talk about "a infinite combination of 'combos'", considering bhopping fits your definition exactly. Only strafing, jump, and mouse movements are required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difference is that with "my" system it that 1 skill/ability/keypress does one action, and with enough of them you have to choose that to do when. not press X,Y,Z with some minor mouse movement and get A.
If you think it's the same, good. you wont have any problem with its removal.
As far as I understand the ones that's against bhop, are not against skill based movements. I currently use skill in build 180 as skulk, using vents, hiding in corners, coming from unpredictable angles, baiting with destroyed nodes. In ns2 you can also jump in specific ways to get almost 4-5 times the distance from leap. If I run flat on the ground I would be dead in 1 sec.
something like cory said with running on walls or something to pick up speed sounds interesting. because its not "lets learn how to do this key-sequence"
<!--quoteo(post=1860503:date=Jul 14 2011, 02:39 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 14 2011, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because skulks cant look a milimeter upwards, so the heigher aoe will hit the marine even while trying to jump over you...
The problem is the speed, skulks need to be a bit faster(increase leap energy cost as tradeoff for higher movement speed) so a small move in the wrong direction doesnt mean death.
The closecombat jumping makes marines less predictable in addition to the performance problems. (at least i often have some stutter in fights)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> whats hindering UWE to make the skulk bite only in front and reseting the view angle before executing the bite? You could explain that the skulk is lunging forward when biting and rips out pieces of flesh and armor more effectively when springing back into the position before. or reduce jump height instead so they cant jump above the skulk? of course, when you jump against an obstacle (railing, building, etc), you should be able to use it as stairstep (even a skulk) like a weak form of free running (anyone tried out "brink"?), but jumping alone isnt as high as a skulk...
I believe the majority of bhop supporters merely want a system that makes them better than new players... simple as.
Note how any suggestion of a system that doesnt involve none intuitive mechanics is shot down as too easy or shows a lack of skill, simply put bhopping is a 'trick of the trade' for the more experienced players.
In my OPINION, a mechanic or system that cannot be learnt while playing normally is not intuitive.
Like say if the dev decided to use the forward button to fire, and the shoot button to move forward... the game would certainly be more harder to master and be more new player unfriendly requiring some dedication to master the unusual system, but would it benefit the game as a whole ?
What modern game has a mechanic whereby jumping in a certain manner while strafing and mouselooking, equals a boost in speed ? Which game, recently launched , features a entire team bouncing off to meet the enemy ? Can one say though despite the lack of bhopping there is no difference between skilled players of these modern games, and a new player just starting to learn the game ? Or can one even say that it takes very little time before a new player is equally skilled ? Lets take it one step further, given all players have the same ability and level of skill, would clan matches always end in a stalemate every game ? Why not ?
It is my opinion of course, but I am pretty certain that lack of bhopping doesnt equate to no skill required... pretty sure.
So, I've had some level of conversion based on this topic (good lord, an opinion changed over the Internet? LIES!). Yeah, it happens sometimes. My conversion isn't to bhop, but the <i>advantages</i> of bhop... read on.
What I'm hearing from some of the more well-spoken posters is that the primary benefit skilled players derive from bhop is maneuverability and air control, with the speed benefit being secondary (albeit present). Some of the videos linked as well show some fairly awesome maneuvers. My primary beefs with bhop are I don't like the way it looks (my huge complaint there, pogomarines are ridiculous), and I don't think a raw speed advantage (which seems to be a secondary benefit from bhop) is something that should come from the motions undertaken in bhop (a lesser complaint, but one I feel is valid).
What I propose is engineering the benefits of bhop, specifically air control, more rapid correction of momentum, and a small speed boost, into the Special Movement mode for skulks, maybe at the expense of a slow Adrenaline drain (we'll figure out some way to manage "sneaking" and "don't stick to the wall" down the road, putting them on other keys). Or, hell, just give them the benefit of all of those things built into their normal movement... faster, higher air-control skulks sounds fine to me. If you make it so that players can maneuver as if they're bunnyhopping without having to jump repeatedly and wave their mouse from side to side, I'm sold, especially if this is implemented as a variable that changes based on lifeform (ninja skulk, tank onos, marine somewhere in the middle).
It's my opinion that by doing this, you'd maintain atmosphere <i>and</i> allow more skilled players to benefit from the advantages of a more natural/flexible, less simulated/rigid movement style. It'll also allow players who aren't familiar with bhop or just hate going through the motions because they break immersion (that'd be me) to have access to that kind of movement without having to go through the esoteric, fairly bizarre ritual of bunnyhopping. Sounds like a win/win to me...
<!--quoteo(post=1860608:date=Jul 14 2011, 12:43 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jul 14 2011, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I propose is engineering the benefits of bhop, specifically air control, more rapid correction of momentum, and a small speed boost, into the Special Movement mode for skulks, maybe at the expense of a slow Adrenaline drain (we'll figure out some way to manage "sneaking" and "don't stick to the wall" down the road, putting them on other keys). Or, hell, just give them the benefit of all of those things built into their normal movement... faster, higher air-control skulks sounds fine to me. If you make it so that players can maneuver as if they're bunnyhopping without having to jump repeatedly and wave their mouse from side to side, I'm sold, especially if this is implemented as a variable that changes based on lifeform (ninja skulk, tank onos, marine somewhere in the middle).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this sounds good, and I'm all for it. It's a simple "press button x and you get outcome Y" so anyone can do it, but not everyone will be able too do it well.
Some of the bhop promoters will however say: "But! then new players will be able to pick up the controls quickly and will take more than 3 seconds to kill, I want my advantage!" or some nonsense about "skill". (the true skill in ns1 is not the act of bhopping, it's deciding where to jump/run depending of what's happening around you.)
It doesn't need to be hard to learn to give benefits to the skilled (and most bhop supporters insist it's not hard to learn to bhop); applying it is where you're going to see the skilled sorted out from the rest. Taking something like "maneuverability" in an FPS (this isn't a dogfighting airplane simulation here, where it lets you cut inside of your target's loop and shred him) and turning it into a real tactical advantage is hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1860015:date=Jul 12 2011, 06:34 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 12 2011, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not really for or against bunnyhoping but your argument interested me from a game design standpoint.
"The person who plays less <b>shouldn't</b> be disadvantaged?" Says who? Why not? They will always be disadvantaged because they will have less knowledge and experience of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Taken out of context. Finish the sentence. "A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>" Re-start your argument with this in mind.
<i>(Btw, bunnyhopping is not a super-move, I was just using a broad example. It is, however, a "skill move".)</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why shouldn't a player be required to do something difficult in order to achieve a benefit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is. That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?) Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No. The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1860130:date=Jul 13 2011, 03:20 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 13 2011, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't have options available without a way to execute them. Like I said, if you don't like it, the onus is on you to present a viable alternative. You keep insisting the current control scheme is "arbitrary" (Which as far as I can tell, is just codeword for "Anything I don't understand"), so why don't you come up with an non-arbitrary alternative?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.
And I did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.
An absolute reliance on technical skill does not in fact raise the skill ceiling (contrary to "that argument") - the skill ceiling (the maximum degree to which you affect the game) is the <b>same height</b>, the <u>skill floor</u> is just <b>much lower</b>.
<i>(You might have a different definition of "skill ceiling" - a purer definition, but that's really just the difference between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. What really matters is how much your skill allows you to affect the game.)</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1860621:date=Jul 14 2011, 11:32 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 14 2011, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taken out of context. Finish the sentence. "A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>" Re-start your argument with this in mind.
The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is. That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?) Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No. The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.
From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.
And I did in fact come up with ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1860584:date=Jul 14 2011, 11:10 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jul 14 2011, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like say if the dev decided to use the forward button to fire, and the shoot button to move forward... the game would certainly be more harder to master and be more new player unfriendly requiring some dedication to master the unusual system, but would it benefit the game as a whole ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. That would just make the game more complicated without any good reason. That's not what people who want skill based movement are for at all. Being "hard to master" in itself is not enough, the mechanic must also scale well with skill. What that means is that if I am slightly better at performing the mechanic then that should translate to a slight advantage in-game.
Just making the controls difficult like you said would only make it harder to learn, but once you'd adjusted it wouldn't make any difference to the gameplay. Everyone would just adapt to the awkward controls and it wouldn't affect the skill difference between the players.
Aiming in fps games is a mechanic that scales with skill. If I am slightly more accurate with my aiming then I have a slight advantage in-game. The better my aim the more of an advantage I have. It's also intuitive and easy to understand. You don't need a tutorial to tell you that you need to aim well to kill your enemies. Also, the potential skill level exceeds human limits. No one can aim 100% perfectly all the time, so there is always room for improvement. A good movement mechanic could have many of these features as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What modern game has a mechanic whereby jumping in a certain manner while strafing and mouselooking, equals a boost in speed ? Which game, recently launched , features a entire team bouncing off to meet the enemy ? Can one say though despite the lack of bhopping there is no difference between skilled players of these modern games, and a new player just starting to learn the game ? Or can one even say that it takes very little time before a new player is equally skilled ? Lets take it one step further, given all players have the same ability and level of skill, would clan matches always end in a stalemate every game ? Why not ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would argue that there hasn't really been a successful competitive multiplayer FPS in a long while. Counter strike is still one of the most played games while all these new releases are forgotten 6 months later.
Of course there will always be a difference in skill between players, even in badly designed games.
The reason why people keep going back to the same games is because they can always improve and get better. It's fun to compete against other people and be challenged to play well. Just the same as someone who plays tennis or golf and keeps working on their game for years.
Most modern FPS's limit the potential ability of the players and eventually everyone reaches a plateau where they can't get any better and it becomes boring. Sure there have been some fun games released in the last few years, but from a game design standpoint they won't stand the test of time. Generally if a game has a good competitive community then it means it's well designed as it keeps people coming back for more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my opinion of course, but I am pretty certain that lack of bhopping doesnt equate to no skill required... pretty sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Correct, but without it or an alternative mechanic, the potential of players skill will be limited in the long term.
[EDIT] Reply to Harimau:
You're talking about bunny hop as if it is just a key combination you learn and as soon as you've learned it it gives you a fixed advantage over players who can't do it. I don't see it like that at all. That would only be the case if once you had learned how to do it you could perform it perfectly and optimally every time.
Bunny hoping is hard to perform. Even once you learn how to do it, that doesn't mean you can do it perfectly every time.
Just knowing how to do it doesn't mean that you instantly have an advantage. If you use it in the right situation and you perform it correctly then it gives you an advantage. It's not a formula of "Press XYZ = instant advantage". If it was then I would be against it.
It doesn't make the skill floor lower. Would you say the same for aiming? Lets just add an auto-aim in for everyone because having to aim well just lowers the skill floor. You're thinking that all good players can perform it optimally (in a way that gives them the most advantage) at all times and I don't think that's the case. Even players who can perform the mechanic very well still need to use it in the right situations in game.
I don't really care particularly about bunny hop. I just want to see some sort of skill based movement in the game. I'd actually be really interested to try something new.
While I'm still of the opinion that marines should either not be able to fire while in the air or have a jump cooldown after landing, it seems the discussion has shifted away from marine jump spam to alien bunny hopping so let me say something about that.
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Last I played CS:S , it didnt feature bhopping... in fact I believe CS Goldsource also doesnt feature bhopping and has active measures to prevent jump spam. The skill in CS is in aiming, using the map/terrain and combat situational awareness... not some unituitive mechinisms, everything in CS can be aquired via merely playing the game, you do not need to search for how-to vids to master a skill.
I would also argue that the reason CS is still the most popular of the competitve games is more to do with players not willing to give up the game they have mastered to master a completely new game, than lack of skill movement.
NS has enough elements to master to allow a player to develop skill without needing to add 'pro only' tricks. I mean theres the various life forms on the Kharaa side and comm , then theres the marines and the various tools/weapons plus the comm again. The devs just need to tweak and sort out the current movements so they are not so sluggish, find a balance between marines ability to track and fire on the forms, and the forms ability to manouvor into optimal range.
I see a lot of hating on a "skill-based move" in this thread. Not really sure what you're trying to get it at though. What you're proposing by saying that such a move is unnecessary is in fact decreasing the depth of the game.
Example A: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uO7ZHPBeg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uO7ZHPBeg</a>
Now Mario Kart is a fun game and all, but seriously, play that game (specifically talking about 64, oh hello childhood) for hours and hours, days, and even for years. That game to me currently would be completely droll if it lacked that power slide boost. It adds a game of movement to a game already about racing position and tactics. I constantly "battle with myself" to pull off this move perfectly. Granted if I play a race of Mario Kart with some friends who haven't picked up an n64 controller since they were still advertising them on TV, I blow them away. With people who play and understand these moves, which really don't have a huge level of skill behind them to initially learn but take time and effort to master, the games tend to be that much more fast-paced and enjoyable all around, win or lose. I mean honestly, a movement system where its literally as cut and dry as "Read the manual and you'll understand 100% how to control all of the characters after practicing with each for 1.5 hours." sounds like as much fun as turning Microsoft Excel into a video game.
I think CS:S does have some bunny hopping but that wasn't my point. My point was that CS is still played because it allows for a large variance in player ability through various mechanics. Aiming, game sense, recoil control and so on. Most recent FPS releases don't have this - they limit the players ability through various ways to make the game noob friendly, but this leads them to becoming boring quickly.
I'm not saying that bunny hopping being unintuitive is a good thing. Ideally all mechanics within the game should be intuitive and easy to understand. But if I were designing a game I would rather sacrifice this than remove a mechanic which gives more depth to the game. Again though, I'd rather see a completely new mechanic rather than bunnyhop
I don't want to see "pro only" tricks. I want to see mechanics that take practice and skill to perform. Without them you hardly have a game at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1860456:date=Jul 13 2011, 02:49 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 13 2011, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade movement looks really beautiful in NS1. And for the fade it makes total sense to have this kind of mechanics, to have short contacts with the ground and to blink between them. Don't know for the other units, but for the fade it looks right, no ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! My thoughts about the movement too. It is very fluid (if properly mastered). In the clip I'm actually using blinks forward momentum and just adding strafe to go around corners (no forward walking). And that clip is by no means the best most attractive blink either.
I challenge any of the new players to install ns1 and come into a server with me. We'll have a good time and I'll explain strafe jumping and air control/bhop. It's not as ridiculous as the haters are making it sound. Skulk movement, the unique combination of strafe jump/wall walk/walljump has allowed for some of the damn nicest skulks I've ever seen. Same with fade blink: I reiterate that it's not about zig zagging dodging, its about fluid air control and maneuverability
<!--quoteo(post=1860627:date=Jul 14 2011, 07:00 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 14 2011, 07:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would you say the same for aiming? Lets just add an auto-aim in for everyone because having to aim well just lowers the skill floor. You're thinking that all good players can perform it optimally (in a way that gives them the most advantage) at all times and I don't think that's the case. Even players who can perform the mechanic very well still need to use it in the right situations in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gN45jsRSOU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gN45jsRSOU</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade movement looks really beautiful in NS1. And for the fade it makes total sense to have this kind of mechanics, to have short contacts with the ground and to blink between them. Don't know for the other units, but for the fade it looks right, no ?
<tacticalgamer hat>
The former is exploiting game engine mechanics to give yourself an advantage over people who don't exploit and gets you banned, the latter is not.
I'm not a stranger to competitive play, I used to be in the Dystopia Global League and was a former CAL player back in the MOHAA days. I left a lot of that kind of bullcrap behind. I got tired of the exact stuff that Temphage talks about. It rots communities from within.
There can be competitiveness without doing all sorts of bhopping/crackjumping/what you want to call it and assholish stuff. TG proves it, for example, we have the top 2 rankings on TWL's BFBC2 ladder, one for 6v6 conquest at 28/12, and the other for 8v8 at 31/13.
We used to have a large, rockin' NS1 server but the population waned a lot. The same rules as all our other games were on it, and it was filled with regulars. Same as what Temphage said, we would eventually attract someone who would start crackjumping around, swearing, and then demand that his way was right because he was on the ENSL and "knew how to actually play and didn't need to hold back."
It was always funny to see people who were supposedly highly ranked on the ENSL fail miserably at playing once you forced them to adopt teamwork tactics and made them work with a team, and took away their bhopping and map glitching. Either hat or they'd simply start cussing us out and get banned.
IMO the only reason why people are harping on bhopping/wigglewalking/pancaking/other stuff is because they have been using it so long it's a crutch to them. They CAN'T play anymore without that, it's unnatural. They never developed ambush tactics or thinking many moves ahead or planning strategies out at the start of the game, they put all their effort on game exploits and "skill".
Depends on how the fast running is implemented. If you just add skulk max speed, it's quite different.
Purely speed wise bhopping is a lot about trading unpredictability for speed. While bhopping you're forced to move in rather predictable patterns which are easy to track. If you want to be unpredictable and dodge as many bullets as you can you're usually better off on the ground even with the present 'slow' ground speed. On ground anyone can do the nasty ADADADA-strafe movement which not only is difficult to track, but also messes up the hitboxes to some extend because the netcode prediction can't handle constant changes in movement direction. Without bhop in NS1 you'd see a lot more of that desync, so it kind of makes up for the netcode weakness in some ways. In NS2 I'm not sure how well the netcode can handle the desync, but I believe it's at least somewhat related to lag compensation that most games, including NS2 use.
Also bhopping isn't instant max speed as the usual player movement. Even with extremely good execution it takes a couple of hops to reach the max speed. This adds quite a lot of challenges in teamwork and timing as you have to decide between preserving the full speed and waiting for better timings. Obviously the acceleration isn't enormously long, but enough to give the marine a couple of extra bullets if you aren't moving at full speed right away.
---
In addition to differences in speed, bhop relates itself to air control and air curve quite a lot. Simply increasing the player speed wouldn't give players the ability to execute as precise jumps and movement control as the NS1 bhop system does. It's a very notable difference when you're for example trying to navigate some objects in ceiling, jump constantly on railings or dive a longer distance at some target below you.
I tend to think the bhop is also a pretty notable balance feature. If you just add speed to the vanilla skulk, newbie marines are in trouble with the rapid speed skulks and general game speed of their level. With bhop the game speed and marine play difficulty go up as the skill level rises so that newbies can manage their game, but also top tier players find challenge in fighting the oppositing skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1860456:date=Jul 13 2011, 09:49 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 13 2011, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fade movement looks really beautiful in NS1. And for the fade it makes total sense to have this kind of mechanics, to have short contacts with the ground and to blink between them. Don't know for the other units, but for the fade it looks right, no ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the problems are more for the 3rd person animation. Many people don't like the 3rd person look of fade 'flying around', no matter how nice it feels on 1st person.
First person skulk is absolutely wonderful too. I can still recognize some players by their first person skulking because everyone has a bit of their own movement patterns and styles. It kind of adds some extra personality to the play.
What I can say is this:
We want more mobility for players in general, especially the skulk. We are looking into more air control for all players, and will be doing more side by side comparisons with NS1 and NS2 to see if we can get that same "feel" back. Additionally, we have some ideas that we are going to try out regarding advanced movement abilities for the skulk, that will be built into the gameplay mechanics for everyone to see, but require skill and practice to pull off the timing and execution in order to get speed/distance boosts. And we are hoping to incorporate the use of vertical surfaces more as part of it. Currently the skulk is largely played on the ground with leap, and only occasionally uses the walls for ambush purposes now and then. We really want his ability to use all surfaces to factor into his overall mobility.
There is a good chance that leap may end up going back to a hive 2 ability, rather then being there at game start. Please, don't everyone start freaking out, its just being discussed, and would only be done once the skulk has been given more maneuverability in other ways.
As far as the actual topic itself goes, we also are not happy with the jump spam on the marine side, and are looking at solutions. We generally hate to impede player movement as a solution, but in this case we may need to add some slowdown/height drop when spamming the jump key, particularly when strafe jumping. NS1 had something similar, though its not yet clear if that would fully solve the problem.
Anyway, player movement as a whole, for all player classes is important to us, and we still have a lot of plans to improve and enhance in that area, though of course there is only so much we can do at once.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, this post made me so happy. I'm glad to see devs wanting to make their game hard to master rather than some super simplified game for the sake of accessibility. It's also nice to see you are trying to come up with new mechanics.
As far as I can tell the main points about bunny hop are:
1. It allows you to close down enemies quicker.
2. It allows you to move around quicker, therefore being harder to hit.
3. It allows you to have more control even while in mid-air.
and it scales well with ability. The better your timing and movement, the better you are at these things.
I'm sure these things can be part of other movement mechanics as well.
I looked at a few other games regarding a jump spam solution and the main two things that are used seem to be:
1. Slowing down upon landing for a second or so. If you press jump within this time because you are moving slowly you will jump almost straight up.
2. No ability to fire while in mid-air. Normally the gun just drops down (similar to sprint) and you can't fire until you hit the ground.
Some games have both of these.
Just while I'm posting about movement, something that's been bugging me is sprinting. When you let go of sprint there is a delay of about half a second in which you cannot shoot. I really don't like this as it removes control from the player. I'd much rather see a stamina bar (with slower normal speed when low on stamina, to stop marines just rushing in without penalty), but you are able to shoot as soon as you let go of sprint. I feel like these times where you take control away from the player make it feel clunky and there are better ways to give disadvantages to sprinting.
The former is exploiting game engine mechanics to give yourself an advantage over people who don't exploit and gets you banned, the latter is not.
I'm not a stranger to competitive play, I used to be in the Dystopia Global League and was a former CAL player back in the MOHAA days. I left a lot of that kind of bullcrap behind. I got tired of the exact stuff that Temphage talks about. It rots communities from within.
There can be competitiveness without doing all sorts of bhopping/crackjumping/what you want to call it and assholish stuff. TG proves it, for example, we have the top 2 rankings on TWL's BFBC2 ladder, one for 6v6 conquest at 28/12, and the other for 8v8 at 31/13.
We used to have a large, rockin' NS1 server but the population waned a lot. The same rules as all our other games were on it, and it was filled with regulars. Same as what Temphage said, we would eventually attract someone who would start crackjumping around, swearing, and then demand that his way was right because he was on the ENSL and "knew how to actually play and didn't need to hold back."
It was always funny to see people who were supposedly highly ranked on the ENSL fail miserably at playing once you forced them to adopt teamwork tactics and made them work with a team, and took away their bhopping and map glitching. Either hat or they'd simply start cussing us out and get banned.
IMO the only reason why people are harping on bhopping/wigglewalking/pancaking/other stuff is because they have been using it so long it's a crutch to them. They CAN'T play anymore without that, it's unnatural. They never developed ambush tactics or thinking many moves ahead or planning strategies out at the start of the game, they put all their effort on game exploits and "skill".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused, TG never banned people for being too good. I've never seen someone get banned for bhopping, spawn camping, shotgun rushing, etc on that server ever. In fact, I was a regular on that server and I was one of the so called "competitive players" that temphage was talking about. It's pretty hilarious to see the entire competitive community get typecasted by a very small minority of its players.
Then as a member of the community you would have remembered signing <a href="http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-general-discussion/73796-read-sign-tgns-primer.html" target="_blank">this</a> (infact i found your 'agree') and tying it in with the community primer in general. Bhopping breaks one of of those tenets, and I remember several times where Aeroripper or Wyz would ban people for it. Perhaps not fades because those were hard to tell, but certainly marines.
I played on TG for years since it was probably one of the best public servers around.
I've played with Aeroripper/Wyz a ton and they're both pretty stand-up guys, never banned anyone for spawn camping/bunnyhopping. The worst I've seen them ban for is banning people who didn't listen to commanders, which I totally understand.
So I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm hoping someone else has a better idea of how to stop jump spamming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
increase area of effect of skulkbite to the height a marine can jump. this way, you still get their feet until they jump ONTO or OVER you, which <b>is</b> skill.
The problem is the speed, skulks need to be a bit faster(increase leap energy cost as tradeoff for higher movement speed) so a small move in the wrong direction doesnt mean death.
The closecombat jumping makes marines less predictable in addition to the performance problems. (at least i often have some stutter in fights)
you can have abilities, or skills, that do different things. Let's say we give the skulk the following abilities:
<ul><li>move forward</li><li>strafe left</li><li>strafe right</li><li>move backward</li><li>jump</li><li>bite</li><li>parasite</li><li>leap</li></ul>
combine this with mouse movements and other effects like maybe wall-walking?
Now all the abilities will be mapped to the keyboard for easy execution, maybe W for forward and so on. (just brainstorming here)
now you have all these options just a key press away and it's up to the user to pick and choose from all there options, that gives us
a infinite combination of "combos" that you have to learn how and when to use correctly to maximize their effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hilarious to hear you talk about "a infinite combination of 'combos'", considering bhopping fits your definition exactly. Only strafing, jump, and mouse movements are required.
I think it's patently ridiculous to blame "competitive" players for killing NS. Here is my solution to your complaints of players who walk into your hive and start spawn camping: get better. You could parasite marines so they don't walk around the map unmolested and into your hive. You could ambush him before he gets into the hive room. You could go lerk on top of the hive and spore him with impunity and swoop down for the kill when he's distracted. You could get a gorge to spit from a distance. You could rally your team to attack as a group instead of walking in one at a time. There's a whole spectrum of in-game responses that could be taken that don't even require the technical skill that you all seem to disdain so much, yet the first resort of many players is to call for out-of-game solutions. It is not the job of the opposing team to go easy on you. If the conduct of a very small subset of players is enough to kill a game, then every game would be dead. All this talk of "competitive" players killing the game is just scapegoating, pure and simple.
I have no idea what Bisclavret is talking about. I'm pretty sure TG members bhopped themselves on a regular basis, and indeed, they fielded a competitive team that did pretty well for a while.
I remember high level competitive play in NS1. It was beautiful. It was fast paced, exciting and diverse. It had everything a player could want in a first person shooter and was quite simply amazing. Bunnyhopping allowed skilled aliens to throw off marine aim and close the distance without leap, and was NOT A ###### EXPLOIT. It was a *originally* a bug in the movement system of the hl1 engine. It was *intentionally* left in NS1 because it fit. It fit with the game and was recognised as improving the game overall and enhancing the feel of NS1. To those crying "exploit", seriously, stop talking. If you want an example of why you need advanced movement mechanics and what happens to a game when those are removed, read up about dolphin diving and battlefield 2. At the start of BF2's competitive life, there was a "bug" that allowed a skilled player to move across the battlefield in such a manner as to look like he was constantly diving onto the ground and getting up. It became a staple of competitive play and allowed players to dodge enemy fire. That mechanic was removed. It decimated the BF2 competitive scene and ended that game's chance of ever becoming a competitor on the e-gaming scene. NS2, if balanced right, can make it. But not if the dev's listen to the whining and complaining of those who are unwilling, unable, and unskilled to the point that they cannot master something as simple as bunnyhopping. I hope to god that the devs reimpliment bunnyhopping into NS2 and that everyone here, in this thread, who has complained and moaned and cried about this rages so hard they literally have an aneurysm while i lock on to their face with my skulk jaws after bunnyhopping halfway across the map to gimp them specifically.
Just on a quick note I have absolutely no idea what the ENSL part of his post is either. It's not at least any well known story or regular occurrence as far as I can tell. I can certainly see some competetive player ending up on a no-bhop server (I thought TG allowed it) and being a bit confused and taking his time and frustration to adjust, but that's probably not the biggest story of a day.
---
And yeah, bhop is the 'unlimited combo' thing exactly. It allows me to switch smoothly from one thing to another in one somewhat natural action. Without it you're usually stuck with a far more discrete movements and control scheme (Which is very notable at NS2 atm). As it is in NS1 bhop creates the connection between the skulk abilities and weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1860467:date=Jul 13 2011, 10:34 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 13 2011, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, this post made me so happy. I'm glad to see devs wanting to make their game hard to master rather than some super simplified game for the sake of accessibility. It's also nice to see you are trying to come up with new mechanics.
As far as I can tell the main points about bunny hop are:
1. It allows you to close down enemies quicker.
2. It allows you to move around quicker, therefore being harder to hit.
3. It allows you to have more control even while in mid-air.
and it scales well with ability. The better your timing and movement, the better you are at these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's a bit difficult to simplify to 3 points as it works on physics layer of NS1. Once you get the hang of it, it starts being everywhere and affecting a lot of stuff in smaller or bigger ways.
2. Is pretty much wrong though. Bhop doesn't really make you harder to hit, not at least against players of equal skill. It's a very predictable motion so you'll get tracked accurately. If you want to be difficult to hit, you're usually better off on the ground. Surely bhop can also make itself difficult to hit, but it's a lot more situational than just going fast.
If someone seriously wants to understand bhop, I'd recommend loading NS1 and giving it a try and/or watching some old competetive HLTV demos and trying to understand how the skulking and fading go.
The difference is that with "my" system it that 1 skill/ability/keypress does one action, and with enough of them you have to choose that to do when. not press X,Y,Z with some minor mouse movement and get A.
If you think it's the same, good. you wont have any problem with its removal.
As far as I understand the ones that's against bhop, are not against skill based movements. I currently use skill
in build 180 as skulk, using vents, hiding in corners, coming from unpredictable angles, baiting with destroyed nodes.
In ns2 you can also jump in specific ways to get almost 4-5 times the distance from leap.
If I run flat on the ground I would be dead in 1 sec.
something like cory said with running on walls or something to pick up speed sounds interesting.
because its not "lets learn how to do this key-sequence"
The problem is the speed, skulks need to be a bit faster(increase leap energy cost as tradeoff for higher movement speed) so a small move in the wrong direction doesnt mean death.
The closecombat jumping makes marines less predictable in addition to the performance problems. (at least i often have some stutter in fights)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats hindering UWE to make the skulk bite only in front and reseting the view angle before executing the bite? You could explain that the skulk is lunging forward when biting and rips out pieces of flesh and armor more effectively when springing back into the position before.
or reduce jump height instead so they cant jump above the skulk? of course, when you jump against an obstacle (railing, building, etc), you should be able to use it as stairstep (even a skulk) like a weak form of free running (anyone tried out "brink"?), but jumping alone isnt as high as a skulk...
Note how any suggestion of a system that doesnt involve none intuitive mechanics is shot down as too easy or shows a lack of skill, simply put bhopping is a 'trick of the trade' for the more experienced players.
In my OPINION, a mechanic or system that cannot be learnt while playing normally is not intuitive.
Like say if the dev decided to use the forward button to fire, and the shoot button to move forward... the game would certainly be more harder to master and be more new player unfriendly requiring some dedication to master the unusual system, but would it benefit the game as a whole ?
What modern game has a mechanic whereby jumping in a certain manner while strafing and mouselooking, equals a boost in speed ?
Which game, recently launched , features a entire team bouncing off to meet the enemy ?
Can one say though despite the lack of bhopping there is no difference between skilled players of these modern games, and a new player just starting to learn the game ? Or can one even say that it takes very little time before a new player is equally skilled ?
Lets take it one step further, given all players have the same ability and level of skill, would clan matches always end in a stalemate every game ? Why not ?
It is my opinion of course, but I am pretty certain that lack of bhopping doesnt equate to no skill required... pretty sure.
What I'm hearing from some of the more well-spoken posters is that the primary benefit skilled players derive from bhop is maneuverability and air control, with the speed benefit being secondary (albeit present). Some of the videos linked as well show some fairly awesome maneuvers. My primary beefs with bhop are I don't like the way it looks (my huge complaint there, pogomarines are ridiculous), and I don't think a raw speed advantage (which seems to be a secondary benefit from bhop) is something that should come from the motions undertaken in bhop (a lesser complaint, but one I feel is valid).
What I propose is engineering the benefits of bhop, specifically air control, more rapid correction of momentum, and a small speed boost, into the Special Movement mode for skulks, maybe at the expense of a slow Adrenaline drain (we'll figure out some way to manage "sneaking" and "don't stick to the wall" down the road, putting them on other keys). Or, hell, just give them the benefit of all of those things built into their normal movement... faster, higher air-control skulks sounds fine to me. If you make it so that players can maneuver as if they're bunnyhopping without having to jump repeatedly and wave their mouse from side to side, I'm sold, especially if this is implemented as a variable that changes based on lifeform (ninja skulk, tank onos, marine somewhere in the middle).
It's my opinion that by doing this, you'd maintain atmosphere <i>and</i> allow more skilled players to benefit from the advantages of a more natural/flexible, less simulated/rigid movement style. It'll also allow players who aren't familiar with bhop or just hate going through the motions because they break immersion (that'd be me) to have access to that kind of movement without having to go through the esoteric, fairly bizarre ritual of bunnyhopping. Sounds like a win/win to me...
this sounds good, and I'm all for it. It's a simple "press button x and you get outcome Y" so anyone can do it, but not everyone will be able too do it well.
Some of the bhop promoters will however say: "But! then new players will be able to pick up the controls quickly and will take more than 3 seconds to kill, I want my advantage!" or some nonsense about "skill". (the true skill in ns1 is not the act of bhopping, it's deciding where to jump/run depending of what's happening around you.)
"The person who plays less <b>shouldn't</b> be disadvantaged?" Says who? Why not? They will always be disadvantaged because they will have less knowledge and experience of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taken out of context. Finish the sentence.
"A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>"
Re-start your argument with this in mind.
<i>(Btw, bunnyhopping is not a super-move, I was just using a broad example. It is, however, a "skill move".)</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why shouldn't a player be required to do something difficult in order to achieve a benefit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is.
That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?)
Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No.
The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1860130:date=Jul 13 2011, 03:20 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 13 2011, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't have options available without a way to execute them. Like I said, if you don't like it, the onus is on you to present a viable alternative. You keep insisting the current control scheme is "arbitrary" (Which as far as I can tell, is just codeword for "Anything I don't understand"), so why don't you come up with an non-arbitrary alternative?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.
And I did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.
An absolute reliance on technical skill does not in fact raise the skill ceiling (contrary to "that argument") - the skill ceiling (the maximum degree to which you affect the game) is the <b>same height</b>, the <u>skill floor</u> is just <b>much lower</b>.
<i>(You might have a different definition of "skill ceiling" - a purer definition, but that's really just the difference between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. What really matters is how much your skill allows you to affect the game.)</i>
"A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>"
Re-start your argument with this in mind.
The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is.
That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?)
Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No.
The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.
From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.
And I did in fact come up with ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 (to all of Harimau's posts)
No. That would just make the game more complicated without any good reason. That's not what people who want skill based movement are for at all. Being "hard to master" in itself is not enough, the mechanic must also scale well with skill. What that means is that if I am slightly better at performing the mechanic then that should translate to a slight advantage in-game.
Just making the controls difficult like you said would only make it harder to learn, but once you'd adjusted it wouldn't make any difference to the gameplay. Everyone would just adapt to the awkward controls and it wouldn't affect the skill difference between the players.
Aiming in fps games is a mechanic that scales with skill. If I am slightly more accurate with my aiming then I have a slight advantage in-game. The better my aim the more of an advantage I have. It's also intuitive and easy to understand. You don't need a tutorial to tell you that you need to aim well to kill your enemies. Also, the potential skill level exceeds human limits. No one can aim 100% perfectly all the time, so there is always room for improvement. A good movement mechanic could have many of these features as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What modern game has a mechanic whereby jumping in a certain manner while strafing and mouselooking, equals a boost in speed ?
Which game, recently launched , features a entire team bouncing off to meet the enemy ?
Can one say though despite the lack of bhopping there is no difference between skilled players of these modern games, and a new player just starting to learn the game ? Or can one even say that it takes very little time before a new player is equally skilled ?
Lets take it one step further, given all players have the same ability and level of skill, would clan matches always end in a stalemate every game ? Why not ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would argue that there hasn't really been a successful competitive multiplayer FPS in a long while. Counter strike is still one of the most played games while all these new releases are forgotten 6 months later.
Of course there will always be a difference in skill between players, even in badly designed games.
The reason why people keep going back to the same games is because they can always improve and get better. It's fun to compete against other people and be challenged to play well. Just the same as someone who plays tennis or golf and keeps working on their game for years.
Most modern FPS's limit the potential ability of the players and eventually everyone reaches a plateau where they can't get any better and it becomes boring. Sure there have been some fun games released in the last few years, but from a game design standpoint they won't stand the test of time. Generally if a game has a good competitive community then it means it's well designed as it keeps people coming back for more.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my opinion of course, but I am pretty certain that lack of bhopping doesnt equate to no skill required... pretty sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct, but without it or an alternative mechanic, the potential of players skill will be limited in the long term.
[EDIT] Reply to Harimau:
You're talking about bunny hop as if it is just a key combination you learn and as soon as you've learned it it gives you a fixed advantage over players who can't do it. I don't see it like that at all. That would only be the case if once you had learned how to do it you could perform it perfectly and optimally every time.
Bunny hoping is hard to perform. Even once you learn how to do it, that doesn't mean you can do it perfectly every time.
Just knowing how to do it doesn't mean that you instantly have an advantage. If you use it in the right situation and you perform it correctly then it gives you an advantage. It's not a formula of "Press XYZ = instant advantage". If it was then I would be against it.
It doesn't make the skill floor lower. Would you say the same for aiming? Lets just add an auto-aim in for everyone because having to aim well just lowers the skill floor. You're thinking that all good players can perform it optimally (in a way that gives them the most advantage) at all times and I don't think that's the case. Even players who can perform the mechanic very well still need to use it in the right situations in game.
I don't really care particularly about bunny hop. I just want to see some sort of skill based movement in the game. I'd actually be really interested to try something new.
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Edit: Reworked the examples a bit.
The skill in CS is in aiming, using the map/terrain and combat situational awareness... not some unituitive mechinisms, everything in CS can be aquired via merely playing the game, you do not need to search for how-to vids to master a skill.
I would also argue that the reason CS is still the most popular of the competitve games is more to do with players not willing to give up the game they have mastered to master a completely new game, than lack of skill movement.
NS has enough elements to master to allow a player to develop skill without needing to add 'pro only' tricks.
I mean theres the various life forms on the Kharaa side and comm , then theres the marines and the various tools/weapons plus the comm again.
The devs just need to tweak and sort out the current movements so they are not so sluggish, find a balance between marines ability to track and fire on the forms, and the forms ability to manouvor into optimal range.
Example A: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uO7ZHPBeg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uO7ZHPBeg</a>
Now Mario Kart is a fun game and all, but seriously, play that game (specifically talking about 64, oh hello childhood) for hours and hours, days, and even for years. That game to me currently would be completely droll if it lacked that power slide boost. It adds a game of movement to a game already about racing position and tactics. I constantly "battle with myself" to pull off this move perfectly. Granted if I play a race of Mario Kart with some friends who haven't picked up an n64 controller since they were still advertising them on TV, I blow them away. With people who play and understand these moves, which really don't have a huge level of skill behind them to initially learn but take time and effort to master, the games tend to be that much more fast-paced and enjoyable all around, win or lose. I mean honestly, a movement system where its literally as cut and dry as "Read the manual and you'll understand 100% how to control all of the characters after practicing with each for 1.5 hours." sounds like as much fun as turning Microsoft Excel into a video game.
I'm not saying that bunny hopping being unintuitive is a good thing. Ideally all mechanics within the game should be intuitive and easy to understand. But if I were designing a game I would rather sacrifice this than remove a mechanic which gives more depth to the game. Again though, I'd rather see a completely new mechanic rather than bunnyhop
I don't want to see "pro only" tricks. I want to see mechanics that take practice and skill to perform. Without them you hardly have a game at all.
Yes! My thoughts about the movement too. It is very fluid (if properly mastered). In the clip I'm actually using blinks forward momentum and just adding strafe to go around corners (no forward walking). And that clip is by no means the best most attractive blink either.
I challenge any of the new players to install ns1 and come into a server with me. We'll have a good time and I'll explain strafe jumping and air control/bhop. It's not as ridiculous as the haters are making it sound. Skulk movement, the unique combination of strafe jump/wall walk/walljump has allowed for some of the damn nicest skulks I've ever seen. Same with fade blink: I reiterate that it's not about zig zagging dodging, its about fluid air control and maneuverability
oh snap