<!--quoteo(post=1863314:date=Jul 25 2011, 02:54 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 25 2011, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please someone show me a video of what's wrong with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just watch the lerk fly, it's a tiny little body with wings that constantly move, the only constant area you can aim at is the body, which as I said is tiny.
Basically it's really really hard to hit because of the way the alien is designed, it's not like NS1 where you have a rather sloppy hitbox and (I think) a much bulkier lerk, you can't just aim *at* the lerk to hit it, you have to aim at specific bits of it, which is really hard because of its animation and movement speed.
Yeah, I understand that, but it's not a problem with the hitbox. The hitbox is fine, it's just the way the lerk moves makes it hard to hit. When people complain about hitboxes, I imagine them shooting directly on the lerk and it not registering, that's not what's happening.
I agree with you though, I think the lerk should be made a little bigger and perhaps it's movement should be slowed down a bit or something (as well as hitting the wings doing some damage).
Well it's a problem with the hitbox in the sense that the hitbox is accurate and therefore really hard to hit, you would solve it by giving the lerk an inaccurate, much bigger hitbox which allows you to aim at it as a sort of blob rather than a reconfiguring ball of non-euclidian geometry.
The animation looks good, so I wouldn't want it changing, and the alien itself looks good, so I wouldn't want that changing either, you can just make it so that when people try to aim at the lerk and shoot it, they have a bit more success, by giving it a bigger hitbox.
<!--quoteo(post=1863320:date=Jul 25 2011, 03:26 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 25 2011, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well it's a problem with the hitbox in the sense that the hitbox is accurate and therefore really hard to hit, you would solve it by giving the lerk an inaccurate, much bigger hitbox which allows you to aim at it as a sort of blob rather than a reconfiguring ball of non-euclidian geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's a good solution. I wouldn't want hits to register that weren't actually hitting the model. Yes, HL1 games had this but things have improved since then.
It would make much more sense to change the size of model as well.
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.
If I understand correctly ... the request for bigger hit-box was originally as response for Lerks powers. Lerk have now very deadly areal DMG - gas (which do not require aim) .. Therefore he/she? can quickly fly trough area - spray gas - and then leave without harm ... to relative safe distance. Bigger hit-box will add some chance to marines to aim and kill harassing lerks .. when they comes or leaves the "GAS CHAMBERS" :).
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are actually ways to check the hitbox. Start up a listen server and invite a friend to play. Open the console and type cheats 1 trace on bullet tracedur 20 bullet damage 0.01
This will turn on the tracing system and cut damage to 1%
Fire at the lerk. Misses will show as green lines and hits as red.
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in an FPS game your bullets should count as hits when they hit the other players model. I don't think FPS games are tying to recreate real life scenarios and weapon mechanics.
The basics of an FPS game is what you can put your cursor on and shoot, you do damage to. Yes, HL1 games had big hitboxes but that was a limitation of the time. It seems silly to go back to that. (Video comparing gldsrc and source hitboxes: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikDV81G-LkA)" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikDV81G-LkA)</a>
If the lerk is hard to shoot then making the hitbox bigger is a very simplistic solution. IMO it would be better to increase the model size a bit and make the movement less erratic. Having hitboxes that reflect the model is a very good thing and we shouldn't change that to fix a problem with other solutions.
From Design Log: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7/25/2011 Will reduce spore damage to account for ignoring of armor (this slipped through).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the fact that spore goes through armor, but yeah a little adjusting will be good.
nice they read this stuff thats awesome to get the changes so fast. still need to fix the double selecting of buildings to research stuff and invalid placement in pustuls stopping you from building unless you get out of the hive and back in.
While I understand that balance will tend to come towards the end of development, at the moment Lerk gas is OP enough to make the game not fun to play for the Marine side.
Issues are as follows:
1. <b>Damage per tick is too high.</b> You lose 15% of your health by simply stepping into a spore cloud. It seems like you take more than one tick's worth of damage per second and last barely 5 seconds in a spore cloud. The solution might not be to dramatically reduce damage depending on the role of the Lerk's ability, but certainly the combined DPS and spamability of it make it ridiculously powerful at holding entire teams at bay.
2. <b>Area of effect not clearly defined.</b> The space the spore cloud appears to occupy and the space within which you start to take damage do not seem to correlate. I've been in spots where it looks completely clear but still take damage. Perhaps the effect is diminishing before the AoE damage gets switched off?
3. <b>Incoming damage not communicated well enough.</b> More of a general issue, and possibly one that may be dealt with in a polish phase, but I don't feel like the HUD/audio give you enough feedback for when you're taking damage. I notice that in NS a very subtle effect was used when you were taking spore damage: the HUD would jolt very slightly down then up as if you were writhing in suppressed pain. This meant you knew when you were in a cloud and taking damage, and could count each damage tick if you wanted to. Thumbs up for non-intrusive, communicative and accurate interface design.
Btw, what's the reasoning for doing health damage only?
I can understand it seems a bit more intuitive possibly, but are there some actual gameplay echancing reasons? I thought the armor damage added teamplay factors for both teams and gave lerk a pretty unique strategical value. With health damage I'd see it becoming a lot more straightforward spore vs medpack relation.
<!--quoteo(post=1863420:date=Jul 25 2011, 03:50 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 25 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, what's the reasoning for doing health damage only?
I can understand it seems a bit more intuitive possibly, but are there some actual gameplay echancing reasons? I thought the armor damage added teamplay factors for both teams and gave lerk a pretty unique strategical value. With health damage I'd see it becoming a lot more straightforward spore vs medpack relation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because having more then a single damage type makes the game more diverse. Bio damage and armor damage, lerk spore and bile bomb.
<!--quoteo(post=1863383:date=Jul 25 2011, 01:10 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 25 2011, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like the wings will be included in the hitbox for 182 :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So there WAS something wrong with it. ;)
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
also so that the lerk is not affected by the armor upgrades for marines, making him quite a good weapon even in lategame (spores don't get damage upgrades).
I was wondering why aswell, it could be they wanted to make medpacks more useful now that they are quite weak or lessen the need to weld. It is a huge nerf though, so I disagree with the damage nerf since the weakening is not going to weaken the marines if they get medpacks (no welding required).
I just hope the reasoning aint something stupid like "It is much more immersive since it is impossible for an alien to breath acid spores and the cough effect sounds cool".
<!--quoteo(post=1863229:date=Jul 25 2011, 02:21 AM:name=Navi491)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Navi491 @ Jul 25 2011, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another option would be to make spores a 2nd hive ability while leaving it as effective as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jamming yet more stuff into Hive 2 is not a good option to me.
Hive 2 is already the crux of the whole game, no reason to make it worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1863424:date=Jul 25 2011, 06:00 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Jul 25 2011, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also so that the lerk is not affected by the armor upgrades for marines, making him quite a good weapon even in lategame (spores don't get damage upgrades).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was the reason I saw given (in the design log, I think). Spores were basically useless once Armor 3 had been researched. Aliens have no damage upgrades for ranged weapons.
I think the gorge basic spit has the same problem, in fact.
<!--quoteo(post=1863441:date=Jul 25 2011, 10:25 PM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Jul 25 2011, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was the reason I saw given (in the design log, I think). Spores were basically useless once Armor 3 had been researched. Aliens have no damage upgrades for ranged weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two thingys I disagree, at least on theorycraft basis.
1.) If the comm is any good, he'll keep the marines on high enough HP that they simply don't die until the armor is gone and some bigger burst damage gets through alongside the spores. Obviously the armor ignoring spore increases medding expense, but then again lerk can't help other aliens by wearing down the armor before actual melee engagement. All in all, I feel it puts kind of unnecessary dependance on comm being bad at micro.
I can understand this better if the armor system is going to be notably different from the NS1 one (smaller absorbtion %'s and such) or if the aliens get more armor ignoring weapons to make kills 'through armor' an actual viability. Right now I haven't at least noticed any mention of them (although my first hand play experience is still pretty limited).
2.) If the actual damage scaling is the problem, can we get damage upgrades rather than potentially wasting some good dynamics involving the spore effectiviness over time, marine armor management and teamwork on both sides?
<!--quoteo(post=1863282:date=Jul 25 2011, 06:09 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 25 2011, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want to make the hitboxes bigger without making the model bigger? Wouldn't it make more sense to just make the lerks body a little bigger so he's easier to hit. They could also give something like 50% damage to hits on the wings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And change the lovely art that the devs have created for this guy? no o.O Fighting games and other genres, including fps games, do this all the time to tweak balance. Actually, go google "hitbox" for images and you'll see that hitboxes are almost always bigger than the models to begin with.
<!--quoteo(post=1863467:date=Jul 26 2011, 01:53 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 26 2011, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And change the lovely art that the devs have created for this guy? no o.O Fighting games and other genres, including fps games, do this all the time to tweak balance. Actually, go google "hitbox" for images and you'll see that hitboxes are almost always bigger than the models to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually most modern FPS games have hitboxes that are virtually the same as the models (see the video I posted earlier). It was only older shooters that had those big blocky hitboxes that would count "misses" as hits. IMO, this is just bad design and was a limitation of the time. I don't really think it's a valid solution at all, but you are free to disagree.
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).
<!--quoteo(post=1863471:date=Jul 25 2011, 08:19 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 25 2011, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually most modern FPS games have hitboxes that are virtually the same as the models (see the video I posted earlier). It was only older shooters that had those big blocky hitboxes that would count "misses" as hits. IMO, this is just bad design and was a limitation of the time. I don't really think it's a valid solution at all, but you are free to disagree.
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suuuuure they do. <a href="http://iplaywinner.com/storage/thumbnails/2739927-10876582-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1298362132547" target="_blank">http://iplaywinner.com/storage/thumbnails/...N=1298362132547</a> <a href="http://iplaywinner.com/storage/oneuse/02ZGF_01.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1298362066146" target="_blank">http://iplaywinner.com/storage/oneuse/02ZG...N=1298362066146</a>
Fighting games are the ones who do this the MOST, simply because tweaking a hitbox the tiniest amount can make all the difference. Horrible move? Extend its offensive reach just beyond the hitbox of that kicking foot, and suddenly you can't counter it without ranged attack. Granted it varies from game to game.
Point being, subtly adjusting how easy it is to hit something CAN be a valid balance move, especially when there's a little hovaring scorpion that can't be shot on its flappers.
<!--quoteo(post=1863229:date=Jul 25 2011, 02:21 AM:name=Navi491)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Navi491 @ Jul 25 2011, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you dont need exosuits to counter spores....as i mentioned in my post as marines upgrade their armor they gain a % of resistance towards spores which increases with each lvl upgrade of armor. This would serve as a way to counter spores. Another option would be to make spores a 2nd hive ability while leaving it as effective as it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see the desire for marine upgrades to help make them more resistant to Lerk spores, but I think we'd be better off just reducing their damage.
If marine upgrades reduced their effectiveness, you'd run into a problem that Lerks wouldn't be useful in the later game. That isn't desirable. The idea is for them to be useful.
Remember, Lerks are pretty expensive. Sure, I can get one early in the game, but if I die, it will be a while before I can afford another one. They need to be balanced around the fact that losing a Lerk means you are now a skulk. This death loses you dps, range, armor, health, and speed (once they get the Lerk flight model fixed). Dying as a marine loses you DPS, that's all. The Lerk is a much more significant in both loss and cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1863471:date=Jul 26 2011, 11:19 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 26 2011, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually most modern FPS games have hitboxes that are virtually the same as the models (see the video I posted earlier). It was only older shooters that had those big blocky hitboxes that would count "misses" as hits. IMO, this is just bad design and was a limitation of the time. I don't really think it's a valid solution at all, but you are free to disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
most modern FPS also have atrocious hit detection, bad company 2 for example
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1863483:date=Jul 25 2011, 07:31 PM:name=creek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (creek @ Jul 25 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most modern FPS also have atrocious hit detection, bad company 2 for example<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats different sorta from hitboxes. thats netcode issues. specifically client prediction. you tube videos are everywhere about this.
Comments
Just watch the lerk fly, it's a tiny little body with wings that constantly move, the only constant area you can aim at is the body, which as I said is tiny.
Basically it's really really hard to hit because of the way the alien is designed, it's not like NS1 where you have a rather sloppy hitbox and (I think) a much bulkier lerk, you can't just aim *at* the lerk to hit it, you have to aim at specific bits of it, which is really hard because of its animation and movement speed.
I agree with you though, I think the lerk should be made a little bigger and perhaps it's movement should be slowed down a bit or something (as well as hitting the wings doing some damage).
The animation looks good, so I wouldn't want it changing, and the alien itself looks good, so I wouldn't want that changing either, you can just make it so that when people try to aim at the lerk and shoot it, they have a bit more success, by giving it a bigger hitbox.
I don't think that's a good solution. I wouldn't want hits to register that weren't actually hitting the model. Yes, HL1 games had this but things have improved since then.
It would make much more sense to change the size of model as well.
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.
Lerk have now very deadly areal DMG - gas (which do not require aim) .. Therefore he/she? can quickly fly trough area - spray gas - and then leave without harm ... to relative safe distance. Bigger hit-box will add some chance to marines to aim and kill harassing lerks .. when they comes or leaves the "GAS CHAMBERS" :).
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are actually ways to check the hitbox. Start up a listen server and invite a friend to play. Open the console and type
cheats 1
trace on bullet
tracedur 20 bullet
damage 0.01
This will turn on the tracing system and cut damage to 1%
Fire at the lerk. Misses will show as green lines and hits as red.
Enjoy!
I don't think it's a problem to have shots hit that aren't strictly hitting the model, I mean games are a pretty imperfect portrayal of guns anyway, if you point a rifle at something and fire fifty rounds at it, it is almost not possible for you not to hit and kill it, so if you point the rifle at the lerk and shoot it a lot, you should hit and kill it, that's what ultimately matters, the exact specifics of the hit registration don't matter too much, you can't and won't be aiming at precise bits of the aliens, because there's no reason to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in an FPS game your bullets should count as hits when they hit the other players model. I don't think FPS games are tying to recreate real life scenarios and weapon mechanics.
The basics of an FPS game is what you can put your cursor on and shoot, you do damage to. Yes, HL1 games had big hitboxes but that was a limitation of the time. It seems silly to go back to that. (Video comparing gldsrc and source hitboxes: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikDV81G-LkA)" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikDV81G-LkA)</a>
If the lerk is hard to shoot then making the hitbox bigger is a very simplistic solution. IMO it would be better to increase the model size a bit and make the movement less erratic. Having hitboxes that reflect the model is a very good thing and we shouldn't change that to fix a problem with other solutions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7/25/2011
Will reduce spore damage to account for ignoring of armor (this slipped through).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the fact that spore goes through armor, but yeah a little adjusting will be good.
Issues are as follows:
1. <b>Damage per tick is too high.</b> You lose 15% of your health by simply stepping into a spore cloud. It seems like you take more than one tick's worth of damage per second and last barely 5 seconds in a spore cloud. The solution might not be to dramatically reduce damage depending on the role of the Lerk's ability, but certainly the combined DPS and spamability of it make it ridiculously powerful at holding entire teams at bay.
2. <b>Area of effect not clearly defined.</b> The space the spore cloud appears to occupy and the space within which you start to take damage do not seem to correlate. I've been in spots where it looks completely clear but still take damage. Perhaps the effect is diminishing before the AoE damage gets switched off?
3. <b>Incoming damage not communicated well enough.</b> More of a general issue, and possibly one that may be dealt with in a polish phase, but I don't feel like the HUD/audio give you enough feedback for when you're taking damage. I notice that in NS a very subtle effect was used when you were taking spore damage: the HUD would jolt very slightly down then up as if you were writhing in suppressed pain. This meant you knew when you were in a cloud and taking damage, and could count each damage tick if you wanted to. Thumbs up for non-intrusive, communicative and accurate interface design.
I can understand it seems a bit more intuitive possibly, but are there some actual gameplay echancing reasons? I thought the armor damage added teamplay factors for both teams and gave lerk a pretty unique strategical value. With health damage I'd see it becoming a lot more straightforward spore vs medpack relation.
I can understand it seems a bit more intuitive possibly, but are there some actual gameplay echancing reasons? I thought the armor damage added teamplay factors for both teams and gave lerk a pretty unique strategical value. With health damage I'd see it becoming a lot more straightforward spore vs medpack relation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because having more then a single damage type makes the game more diverse. Bio damage and armor damage, lerk spore and bile bomb.
So there WAS something wrong with it. ;)
I just hope the reasoning aint something stupid like "It is much more immersive since it is impossible for an alien to breath acid spores and the cough effect sounds cool".
Jamming yet more stuff into Hive 2 is not a good option to me.
Hive 2 is already the crux of the whole game, no reason to make it worse.
This was the reason I saw given (in the design log, I think). Spores were basically useless once Armor 3 had been researched. Aliens have no damage upgrades for ranged weapons.
I think the gorge basic spit has the same problem, in fact.
Two thingys I disagree, at least on theorycraft basis.
1.) If the comm is any good, he'll keep the marines on high enough HP that they simply don't die until the armor is gone and some bigger burst damage gets through alongside the spores. Obviously the armor ignoring spore increases medding expense, but then again lerk can't help other aliens by wearing down the armor before actual melee engagement. All in all, I feel it puts kind of unnecessary dependance on comm being bad at micro.
I can understand this better if the armor system is going to be notably different from the NS1 one (smaller absorbtion %'s and such) or if the aliens get more armor ignoring weapons to make kills 'through armor' an actual viability. Right now I haven't at least noticed any mention of them (although my first hand play experience is still pretty limited).
2.) If the actual damage scaling is the problem, can we get damage upgrades rather than potentially wasting some good dynamics involving the spore effectiviness over time, marine armor management and teamwork on both sides?
And change the lovely art that the devs have created for this guy? no o.O
Fighting games and other genres, including fps games, do this all the time to tweak balance. Actually, go google "hitbox" for images and you'll see that hitboxes are almost always bigger than the models to begin with.
Fighting games and other genres, including fps games, do this all the time to tweak balance. Actually, go google "hitbox" for images and you'll see that hitboxes are almost always bigger than the models to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually most modern FPS games have hitboxes that are virtually the same as the models (see the video I posted earlier). It was only older shooters that had those big blocky hitboxes that would count "misses" as hits. IMO, this is just bad design and was a limitation of the time. I don't really think it's a valid solution at all, but you are free to disagree.
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).
Anyway, they are now making it so that shooting the wings will now count as hits, so that should make the lerks a bit easier to hit (and makes sense).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suuuuure they do.
<a href="http://iplaywinner.com/storage/thumbnails/2739927-10876582-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1298362132547" target="_blank">http://iplaywinner.com/storage/thumbnails/...N=1298362132547</a>
<a href="http://iplaywinner.com/storage/oneuse/02ZGF_01.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1298362066146" target="_blank">http://iplaywinner.com/storage/oneuse/02ZG...N=1298362066146</a>
Fighting games are the ones who do this the MOST, simply because tweaking a hitbox the tiniest amount can make all the difference. Horrible move? Extend its offensive reach just beyond the hitbox of that kicking foot, and suddenly you can't counter it without ranged attack.
Granted it varies from game to game.
Point being, subtly adjusting how easy it is to hit something CAN be a valid balance move, especially when there's a little hovaring scorpion that can't be shot on its flappers.
I can see the desire for marine upgrades to help make them more resistant to Lerk spores, but I think we'd be better off just reducing their damage.
If marine upgrades reduced their effectiveness, you'd run into a problem that Lerks wouldn't be useful in the later game. That isn't desirable. The idea is for them to be useful.
Remember, Lerks are pretty expensive. Sure, I can get one early in the game, but if I die, it will be a while before I can afford another one. They need to be balanced around the fact that losing a Lerk means you are now a skulk. This death loses you dps, range, armor, health, and speed (once they get the Lerk flight model fixed). Dying as a marine loses you DPS, that's all. The Lerk is a much more significant in both loss and cost.
most modern FPS also have atrocious hit detection, bad company 2 for example
thats different sorta from hitboxes. thats netcode issues. specifically client prediction. you tube videos are everywhere about this.
...now I'm usually smarter than that. I swear! >.<