Thats a very rational argument against barnacles, and it shows you been thinking a lot on the mechanics and implications of your creation/baby :). Its convincing enough for me to withdraw support of barnacles, but I still like to see Cerberi in the game one day
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2011
I thought about it a while, and I figured my Cerberi concept would not work as a model, let alone the idea of the Cerberi being a steep mouth; would not make sense in the game itself, as you can not really make a model that creates a hole in the ground, since map geometry is static and seemingly unchangeable, I found 2 basic solutions for this problem:
Black = World Geometry Green = Infestation Red = Cerberi Model White = Teeth
1. In the top slice, you can see my original idea and the problem it causes, which is bad because the model (which is basically a hole) would have to pass through world geometry to create a steep mouth, the current implementation of DI is decals, Cerberi would have to be placed on it, which does not work.
2. in the second slice, you can see my first solution, which is to make the Cerberi stick out of the DI as its own model, albeit not sticking out alot as to not reveal it too much, this is not perfect since it would have problems in concealment, but it is implementable <i>right now</i>.
3. My best solution, tho the hardest to get working would be to have the model hide amongst the fully featured future implementation of Dynamic Infestation, which creates a space between the world geometry and top layer of infestation, enough to cleverly conceal the model, so it may emerge and give your wife that free pedicure she always wanted.
Create a model that can work with 2 and also 3 later down the road (if possible).
Whether its 2 or 3, I would make it appear cloaked from a distance (would have to be shade tech). Marines can't see until they are close up close. Shining a flashlight could also make it appear a little further out ..but transparent.
The safest bet is creating gameplay mechanics that allow it to work nearly the same regardless if its 2 or 3.
Whether its 2 or 3, <b>I would make it appear cloaked from a distance</b> (would have to be shade tech). Marines can't see until they are close up close. Shining a flashlight could also make it appear a little further out ..but transparent.
[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking more of a deployed/sleeping animation, where the model would already blend well into the dynamic infestation, but only deploy when a marine steps into it.
And more on cloak: the Shade is already implemented in-game! I really think the Cerberi could make an appearance in the current gameplay mechanics!
Recently with the implementation of a somewhat 3D Infestation, I think that the Cerberi could currently exist as #2 or even #3 ingame: (as pictured below)
<!--coloro:#2F4F4F--><span style="color:#2F4F4F"><!--/coloro-->Black<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = World Geometry <!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->Green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Infestation <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Light/Lime Green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Infestation Masses or Undeployed/Camouflaged Cerberi State <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Red<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Cerberi Model White = Teeth
A1: Would be the theoretical present implementation of Cerberi, which would be coloured to look like the infestation, and have infestation masses surrounding it.
A2: could be a future implementation of the Cerberi, like the other, but instead of infestation masses, would have full dynamic infestation surrounding it.
B1: is the sleeping state of A1
B2: is the sleeping state of A2
There would be a deployed/sleeping state to the Cerberi, where the model would blend into the dynamic infestation and it's current 3D masses, in other words; the Cerberi would look like a slightly larger pulsating mass, or maybe It wouldn't pulsate, for concealment?
I'm going to eventually change the OP to reflect current changes in the game.
Any new thoughts? <i>...Does anybody still care?</i>
I like the concept of traps. How about a 10 res upgrade for cysts that turns their infestation into a more gluey substance increasing the slow down affect for marines over it?
At minimum, I think this is a good analogue to Marine mines.
It also encourages more flame sweeps. (Currently I'm really disappointed with how ineffective the Flamer is against buildings)
<!--quoteo(post=1880839:date=Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This should be an upgrade for cycts to stop marines from knifing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if the Cerberi would have a "cyst decoy" on them?
So, picture this. We have the normal Cerberi floor trap. But then you get T2 or T3, where you can upgrade them to tendrils. In addition to the 1-2 meter dragging radius, they'll have a longer range attack that will only trigger against things that attack the decoy cyst.
Is that a normal cyst you can just shoot? Or will it drag you into a hungry mouth full of sharp teeth? It would make Crevice a more interesting place to be sure.
I support this idea. i think even UWE was searching for more abilities and traps for the gorge to place (even if cerberi is not for the gorge, i dont care, it is cool)
<!--quoteo(post=1880839:date=Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This should be an upgrade for cycts to stop marines from knifing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I think some credit is due here. Cysts are already positioned in the center of every infestation patch in the world, and may interfere with placement of Cerberi. Maybe, the Cerberi would make a good upgrade to the Cyst!
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1880839:date=Oct 20 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 20 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This should be an upgrade for cycts to stop marines from knifing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1885979:date=Nov 21 2011, 10:00 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Nov 21 2011, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think some credit is due here. Cysts are already positioned in the center of every infestation patch in the world, and may interfere with placement of Cerberi. Maybe, the Cerberi would make a good upgrade to the Cyst!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hybridclaw and DarkOmen, as DarkOmen stated himself in the quote, the idea of Cerberi being upgraded forms of Cysts seems unlikely to me because of the perfect radius of infestation around them which would compromise their concealment, as this re-imagining of the Cerberi would always have the same distance to one another and radius of infestation surrounding them, making them rather obvious. There are also multiple other reasons this change of concept would prove redundant; one of the main reasons for me personally of disliking Cyst-Cerberi is the two step placement that you suggested, to have to place a cyst then upgrade it into the Cerberi
One of the main perks of the Cerberi should be quick deployment, which allows a commander to place some in the heat of battle, a Cerberi should take around ~5 seconds to grow and be ready to snatch a marine, maybe even less, since 4 seconds is actually a long time when it comes to fast paced gaming. Quick deployment allows the infestation to mutate into Cerberi as marines are running in circles fighting on it, forcing them to remain vigilant at all times while in alien territory, and look out for environmental hazards as much as the foe they are directly fighting. This is in agreement to the fundamental Support mechanisms of the Cerberi I continually try to express.
Another thing noteworthy about the Cyst-Cerberi suggestion is the problem it would lead with the infestation chain connections, how would it work? would a Cyst-Cerberi have the same effect as a normal cyst in the chain? why would we want a disposable support structure to become so abhorrently crucial to the survival and connectivity of other structures? Cysts should always be a way to circumvent strong alien defenses, similar to the marine's destroyable power nodes (or power sockets, not sure what they are called now.) except far more spread out, if they can gain all of the perks of the Cerberi, and become hidden unless deployed or discovered, wouldn't this cause confusion on to how to remove infestation? Where are the Cysts? They are all hidden.
It all boils down to them both being completely different structures with different mechanisms, I do not see a likely merge of them at this time, that's for sure.
I hope you understand my concerns, I can't support Cyst-Cerberi because of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1882963:date=Nov 1 2011, 05:46 AM:name=theDarkFox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (theDarkFox @ Nov 1 2011, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At minimum, I think this is a good analogue to Marine mines.
It also encourages more flame sweeps. (Currently I'm really disappointed with how ineffective the Flamer is against buildings)
What if the Cerberi would have a "cyst decoy" on them?
So, picture this. We have the normal Cerberi floor trap. But then you get T2 or T3, where you can upgrade them to tendrils. In addition to the 1-2 meter dragging radius, they'll have a longer range attack that will only trigger against things that attack the decoy cyst.
Is that a normal cyst you can just shoot? Or will it drag you into a hungry mouth full of sharp teeth? It would make Crevice a more interesting place to be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do not like the idea of Cerberi being permanently tied to Cysts, If anybody wants this, they can easily just place independent Cerberi around Cysts, and we should in theory have extremely similar effects.
<!--quoteo(post=1880847:date=Oct 20 2011, 05:40 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Oct 20 2011, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the concept of traps. How about a 10 res upgrade for cysts that turns their infestation into a more gluey substance increasing the slow down affect for marines over it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love this idea, and would like it implemented in the game as an upgrade on a structure, however It has no direct affiliation with Cerberi themselves, so I can't take it into account. This would fit better as a Dynamic Infestation Suggestion in a separate thread of its own.
<!--quoteo(post=1885240:date=Nov 17 2011, 12:59 AM:name=LUSITANER)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LUSITANER @ Nov 17 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I support this idea. i think even UWE was searching for more abilities and traps for the gorge to place (even if cerberi is not for the gorge, i dont care, it is cool)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to think about considering the gorge being able to place them, however, I would still like to hold on to the thought of the hive mind commander controlling the infestation itself, mutating mouths onto it at will, like a living organism trying to dispose of invading beings with omnipresent defense mechanisms.
True, I wish somebody could give a hint to what they think about this, if it's implementable, or follows their current and future goals, etc. I don't want this idea to become obsolete!
A developer has stated in a thread I read some time ago that they don't really have time to look into the suggestions thread, and mainly answer and look at the NS2 General Discussions thread instead. Which I find saddening.
<!--quoteo(post=1887412:date=Nov 29 2011, 03:09 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Nov 29 2011, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, I wish somebody could give a hint to what they think about this, if it's implementable, or follows their current and future goals, etc. I don't want this idea to become obsolete!
A developer has stated in a thread I read some time ago that they don't really have time to look into the suggestions thread, and mainly answer and look at the NS2 General Discussions thread instead. Which I find saddening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is pretty lame...
I will put it in my SIG then just to get people to check it out..
This is my crappy picture and my amazing paint skills...
<!--QuoteBegin-Vladimir Van Vodka+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope you understand my concerns, I can't support Cyst-Cerberi because of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You bring up a very good point regarding the mechanics of Cerberi being so different from Cysts, and you're definitely convinced me.
Regarding the name, "Cerberi", why not just "Cerberus"? I can't get it out of my head that Cerberi sounds like the plural of Cerberus (which I think it is).
I really like the sound of your idea. Cerberi sounds like something that could definately spice up matches.
As for all the suggestions being posted by other members, I think people are trying to overcomplicate this unit. The OP describes it pretty thoroughly, and there isn't really too much room for improvement (aside from inevitable balancing issues).
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited December 2011
Like usually I am away or present but invested in other things to update this thread, this can be a good thing since I bump this thread only when it's removed from the front page, which allows people to see it again, I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1887491:date=Nov 29 2011, 07:35 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 29 2011, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is pretty lame...
I will put it in my SIG then just to get people to check it out..
This is my crappy picture and my amazing paint skills...
Thanks for helping me support the Idea, It's very well appreciated!
I might as well wear the signature myself. I'll try editing it some day with another updated hand drawn picture that can blend well on the forum, with paint editing over it. As it's not your paint skills that are solely to blame, (I myself am terrible at any computer art.) it's my bland pencil drawings that can't blend into any good signature that's the problem, the striking white is very unappealing along with the messy pencil strokes. If any atist would be up to the task in drawing and editing a better picture of a Cerberus? it would be very much appreciated by me. I'll try improving it myself of course, we'll just see.
Whichever one is best suited in the end will be edited into the original post to replace my shaggy drawing, with full credits to the creator(s) of course.
On a side note; I really need to update the Original post with all the recent and near future game changes. Which will be done soon, but first I want to edit the support signature with cleaner text and a better drawing of which I will recycle into the OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1887596:date=Nov 30 2011, 01:35 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Nov 30 2011, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You bring up a very good point regarding the mechanics of Cerberi being so different from Cysts, and you're definitely convinced me.
Regarding the name, "Cerberi", why not just "Cerberus"? I can't get it out of my head that Cerberi sounds like the plural of Cerberus (which I think it is).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, I have become accustomed to calling a Cerberus; Cerberi. Even if it's not remotely plural. I'll try and stop.
<!--quoteo(post=1887621:date=Nov 30 2011, 05:28 PM:name=BearTaxi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearTaxi @ Nov 30 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the sound of your idea. Cerberi sounds like something that could definately spice up matches.
As for all the suggestions being posted by other members, I think people are trying to overcomplicate this unit. The OP describes it pretty thoroughly, and there isn't really too much room for improvement (aside from inevitable balancing issues).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i> Needs more hats.</i>
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1949836:date=Jul 8 2012, 12:40 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 8 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really good idea. +1 But I would give it to the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This entire suggestion is based around the premise that the Alien Commander should have more ways to shape the environment to the aliens advantage, Like a "Cosmic Gardener" as stated in the official design documents. (which sadly have not been updated it's been a long time...)
Frankly, with the implementation of Clogs, I'm not sure anymore if it should only be tied to the Alien Commander, but <i>that's</i> a whole other idea in itself, I tried creating theoretic statistics and mechanisms that could work with the Alien Commander. (the whole Tres cost thing, Omnipresent spawning of the Cerberi, etc.)
It would work for the Gorge, if they cost energy instead of Tres and you had a hard limit of 3-4, but I don't really like this As I envision Cerberi as an environmental hazard instead of a Gorge tied structure, more in line with the way the Whips work right now. (as in; turn a corner a Whip b**** slaps you / Cerberus eats your feet / Cerberus eats your feet while a Whip spanks you naughtily.)
Cerberi should be able to grow anywhere on infestation, at any time. A marine should be able to run through a room, and as he passes it, the Alien Commander starts growing a Cerberi where he passes, missing him because it takes around 4-6 seconds to grow. Then as the marine eventually sees an obvious threat inbound, he backpedals into the Cerberus, sealing his fate.
I just personally prefer the idea of marines having to keep constant vigilance on the infestation on which they walk, since it itself is alive and threatening. instead of having to look out for Gorges and Gorge nests specifically.
Infestation Spikes is the closest thing to Cerberi in the game right now (unless they removed it already) but I personally think Infestation Spikes are quite shoddy and not fun to work with... Or to fight against, or don't even promote teamwork... I could keep rambling on and on.
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
bump In hopes UWE can acknowledge the idea, hopefully post 1.0, hopefully. Did I mention hopefully? Also edited the OP to reflect most recently changed game mechanics etc etc. (mostly removal of obsolete and redundant stuff, as this idea is older then dirt.)
Added: <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Applies Parasite/Hive-Sight when damaging a marine</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(gives more incentive for aliens to aknowledge a troubled marine)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Design Goal:</b> The entire concept of the Cerberus suggestion is designed with <b>support</b> and ambush in mind, these traps are not designed to be effective <i>without</i> an alien player presence, it emphasizes the aliens and their direct connection with environmental gameplay; taking advantage of it. ex: Aliens may lead marines into these traps, they may form local ambush points, they may be dropped in the thick of battle, as marines may not notice them growing beneath their feet as they slay Kharaa, etc etc. The synergy between Cerberi and Alien Players is good enough for it to be officially implemented, in one form or another, in my honest opinion.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Mainly removed the "mature cerberi" concept, as it would be too tedious upgrading every single one as khammander, also seems like quite the work (animations, scripts, design of tendrils) for a simple range buff, Occam's Razor at it's finest.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
Updated the entire OP, Changed alot; -Added information -rearranged it to make it more clear and concise
-I also created a decent looking signature; if anybody wants to support the Cerberus in the hopes of getting it noticed by UWE, It would be very well appreciated if you'd add it to your signature. If your willing to help, here you go:
All you need to do is remove all of the "<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" in <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/img.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/size.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Then copy and paste it in your signature, it should appear exactly like mine below.
frankly this is just my format, so you can go apes*** and do something crazy/original instead.
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1991436:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:43 AM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Oct 15 2012, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would this idea be interacting with ARCS that the Infestation Spike can't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me if I understand your question correctly; from what I understand you're asking a two part question:
1. How a Cerberus would interact with an ARC? 2. And what difference it has with Bone Wall?
Seemed like simple answers, but after some thought, both are quite interesting questions... Especially the first.
With the ARC; at first I would have said that It would interact with ARCS the same way as any ground unit (Marines and EXOs) and bite up on it, causing continuous damage <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(Immersion wise; It would bite into it's tracks)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Cerberi wouldn't pose a big threat against ARCs, as marines usually escort them, or should, and would gun them down as soon as one would stop it. However, a problem did arise in theory. I kinda figure that the arc is <b>larger</b> then the Cerberus.
<img src="http://s8.postimage.org/8mv3yhevl/Cerberi_Arc_Legend.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://s14.postimage.org/t70eg6qzz/Cerberi_Arc_Marine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> As shown above, with a marine the Cerberus can be shot from all directions, and by the marine itself.
<img src="http://s9.postimage.org/cdeeljfa5/Cerberi_Arc_Sight.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> When it comes to an ARC, there may be no line of sight to the Cerberus, and the ARC can not defend itself from it, which may be problematic...
<img src="http://s7.postimage.org/n2uw9ehpl/Cerberi_Arc_Sight_fix.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> So I was thinking that maybe the Cerberus would bite onto whatever It's damaging off center, leaving always a line of sight for it to be destroyed? seems unintuitive as either ways, I think flamethrowers can burn things through friendly structures last I checked, not to mention a grenades splash damage affect Cerberi when detracted.
As for what difference Cerberi have with Bone-Walls?
Cerberi -Are not a single use structure -Can not be placed instantly -Are not a physical obstruction -Have no horrendous placement cooldown -Deal damage to marine/mobile units -Impede only single units -Are an environmental hazard <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->-Are <i>not</i> obvious -Form a focal point for alien Strategy/Security -Forces Marine Vigilence<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
But I understand the similarities of Cerberi to Bone-Walls/Infestation Spikes <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(or whatever they are actually called now)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> and the way they pop out of infestation, I guess. The problem with Bone Wall, from last time I have seen it <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(as it is used so rarely<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->), is that it's useless for what it costs and frustrating for marines, as escape or entry to an area is blocked off for a couple of seconds seemingly pointlessly, only wasting time and that Bone Walls are indestructible, and for the aliens are not worth the Tres for what they are are actually used for; a single use brief blockade. Very situational, it seems.
One of the many reasons why I stated this:
<!--quoteo(post=1949764:date=Jul 8 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Jul 8 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bump
Infestation Spikes should be similar in concept to Cerberi! please support!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think Cerberi are a better concept then Bone-Wall, If people actually love Bone-Wall enough for it <i>not</i> to be replaced, not sure if they would mind both Cerberi and Bonewall existing, well, I personally think it would give more viable strategies.
I wouldn't mind seeing people defend the idea of Bone-Wall's current implementation or why it would be better then Cerberi, and what use they have right now, as the points driven out could be implemented into this suggestion, frankly, making it better!
Comments
<img src="http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5940/cerberiproblem.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Black = World Geometry
Green = Infestation
Red = Cerberi Model
White = Teeth
1. In the top slice, you can see my original idea and the problem it causes, which is bad because the model (which is basically a hole) would have to pass through world geometry to create a steep mouth, the current implementation of DI is decals, Cerberi would have to be placed on it, which does not work.
2. in the second slice, you can see my first solution, which is to make the Cerberi stick out of the DI as its own model, albeit not sticking out alot as to not reveal it too much, this is not perfect since it would have problems in concealment, but it is implementable <i>right now</i>.
3. My best solution, tho the hardest to get working would be to have the model hide amongst the fully featured future implementation of Dynamic Infestation, which creates a space between the world geometry and top layer of infestation, enough to cleverly conceal the model, so it may emerge and give your wife that free pedicure she always wanted.
Thoughts?
Whether its 2 or 3, I would make it appear cloaked from a distance (would have to be shade tech). Marines can't see until they are close up close. Shining a flashlight could also make it appear a little further out ..but transparent.
The safest bet is creating gameplay mechanics that allow it to work nearly the same regardless if its 2 or 3.
Bump de hump doop bop
Hump de bump doop bodu
Oh no!
Hump de bump doop bodu
Hump de bump doop bop
Bump de hump doop bodu
Bump bump!
<!--quoteo(post=1854493:date=Jun 19 2011, 07:17 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 19 2011, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]
Whether its 2 or 3, <b>I would make it appear cloaked from a distance</b> (would have to be shade tech). Marines can't see until they are close up close. Shining a flashlight could also make it appear a little further out ..but transparent.
[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking more of a deployed/sleeping animation, where the model would already blend well into the dynamic infestation, but only deploy when a marine steps into it.
And more on cloak: the Shade is already implemented in-game! I really think the Cerberi could make an appearance in the current gameplay mechanics!
Recently with the implementation of a somewhat 3D Infestation, I think that the Cerberi could currently exist as #2 or even #3 ingame:
(as pictured below)
<img src="http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1356/cerberiproblem2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--coloro:#2F4F4F--><span style="color:#2F4F4F"><!--/coloro-->Black<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = World Geometry
<!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->Green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Infestation
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->Light/Lime Green<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Infestation Masses or Undeployed/Camouflaged Cerberi State
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Red<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> = Cerberi Model
White = Teeth
A1:
Would be the theoretical present implementation of Cerberi, which would be coloured to look like the infestation, and have infestation masses surrounding it.
A2:
could be a future implementation of the Cerberi, like the other, but instead of infestation masses, would have full dynamic infestation surrounding it.
B1: is the sleeping state of A1
B2: is the sleeping state of A2
There would be a deployed/sleeping state to the Cerberi, where the model would blend into the dynamic infestation and it's current 3D masses, in other words; the Cerberi would look like a slightly larger pulsating mass, or maybe It wouldn't pulsate, for concealment?
I'm going to eventually change the OP to reflect current changes in the game.
Any new thoughts?
<i>...Does anybody still care?</i>
that is all. x3
It also encourages more flame sweeps.
(Currently I'm really disappointed with how ineffective the Flamer is against buildings)
<!--quoteo(post=1880839:date=Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hybridclaw @ Oct 20 2011, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This should be an upgrade for cycts to stop marines from knifing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if the Cerberi would have a "cyst decoy" on them?
So, picture this. We have the normal Cerberi floor trap. But then you get T2 or T3, where you can upgrade them to tendrils. In addition to the 1-2 meter dragging radius, they'll have a longer range attack that will only trigger against things that attack the decoy cyst.
Is that a normal cyst you can just shoot? Or will it drag you into a hungry mouth full of sharp teeth? It would make Crevice a more interesting place to be sure.
Actually, I think some credit is due here. Cysts are already positioned in the center of every infestation patch in the world, and may interfere with placement of Cerberi. Maybe, the Cerberi would make a good upgrade to the Cyst!
<!--quoteo(post=1885979:date=Nov 21 2011, 10:00 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Nov 21 2011, 10:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think some credit is due here. Cysts are already positioned in the center of every infestation patch in the world, and may interfere with placement of Cerberi. Maybe, the Cerberi would make a good upgrade to the Cyst!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hybridclaw and DarkOmen, as DarkOmen stated himself in the quote, the idea of Cerberi being upgraded forms of Cysts seems unlikely to me because of the perfect radius of infestation around them which would compromise their concealment, as this re-imagining of the Cerberi would always have the same distance to one another and radius of infestation surrounding them, making them rather obvious. There are also multiple other reasons this change of concept would prove redundant; one of the main reasons for me personally of disliking Cyst-Cerberi is the two step placement that you suggested, to have to place a cyst then upgrade it into the Cerberi
One of the main perks of the Cerberi should be quick deployment, which allows a commander to place some in the heat of battle, a Cerberi should take around ~5 seconds to grow and be ready to snatch a marine, maybe even less, since 4 seconds is actually a long time when it comes to fast paced gaming.
Quick deployment allows the infestation to mutate into Cerberi as marines are running in circles fighting on it, forcing them to remain vigilant at all times while in alien territory, and look out for environmental hazards as much as the foe they are directly fighting. This is in agreement to the fundamental Support mechanisms of the Cerberi I continually try to express.
Another thing noteworthy about the Cyst-Cerberi suggestion is the problem it would lead with the infestation chain connections, how would it work? would a Cyst-Cerberi have the same effect as a normal cyst in the chain? why would we want a disposable support structure to become so abhorrently crucial to the survival and connectivity of other structures?
Cysts should always be a way to circumvent strong alien defenses, similar to the marine's destroyable power nodes (or power sockets, not sure what they are called now.) except far more spread out, if they can gain all of the perks of the Cerberi, and become hidden unless deployed or discovered, wouldn't this cause confusion on to how to remove infestation? Where are the Cysts? They are all hidden.
It all boils down to them both being completely different structures with different mechanisms, I do not see a likely merge of them at this time, that's for sure.
I hope you understand my concerns, I can't support Cyst-Cerberi because of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1882963:date=Nov 1 2011, 05:46 AM:name=theDarkFox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (theDarkFox @ Nov 1 2011, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At minimum, I think this is a good analogue to Marine mines.
It also encourages more flame sweeps.
(Currently I'm really disappointed with how ineffective the Flamer is against buildings)
What if the Cerberi would have a "cyst decoy" on them?
So, picture this. We have the normal Cerberi floor trap. But then you get T2 or T3, where you can upgrade them to tendrils. In addition to the 1-2 meter dragging radius, they'll have a longer range attack that will only trigger against things that attack the decoy cyst.
Is that a normal cyst you can just shoot? Or will it drag you into a hungry mouth full of sharp teeth? It would make Crevice a more interesting place to be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do not like the idea of Cerberi being permanently tied to Cysts, If anybody wants this, they can easily just place independent Cerberi around Cysts, and we should in theory have extremely similar effects.
<!--quoteo(post=1880847:date=Oct 20 2011, 05:40 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Oct 20 2011, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the concept of traps. How about a 10 res upgrade for cysts that turns their infestation into a more gluey substance increasing the slow down affect for marines over it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love this idea, and would like it implemented in the game as an upgrade on a structure, however It has no direct affiliation with Cerberi themselves, so I can't take it into account. This would fit better as a Dynamic Infestation Suggestion in a separate thread of its own.
<!--quoteo(post=1885240:date=Nov 17 2011, 12:59 AM:name=LUSITANER)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LUSITANER @ Nov 17 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885240"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I support this idea. i think even UWE was searching for more abilities and traps for the gorge to place (even if cerberi is not for the gorge, i dont care, it is cool)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to think about considering the gorge being able to place them, however, I would still like to hold on to the thought of the hive mind commander controlling the infestation itself, mutating mouths onto it at will, like a living organism trying to dispose of invading beings with omnipresent defense mechanisms.
<!--quoteo(post=1885133:date=Nov 16 2011, 11:05 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 16 2011, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shame UWE hasn't replied to this...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, I wish somebody could give a hint to what they think about this, if it's implementable, or follows their current and future goals, etc.
I don't want this idea to become obsolete!
A developer has stated in a thread I read some time ago that they don't really have time to look into the suggestions thread, and mainly answer and look at the NS2 General Discussions thread instead. Which I find saddening.
I don't want this idea to become obsolete!
A developer has stated in a thread I read some time ago that they don't really have time to look into the suggestions thread, and mainly answer and look at the NS2 General Discussions thread instead. Which I find saddening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is pretty lame...
I will put it in my SIG then just to get people to check it out..
This is my crappy picture and my amazing paint skills...
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4497/ns2cerberi.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
You bring up a very good point regarding the mechanics of Cerberi being so different from Cysts, and you're definitely convinced me.
Regarding the name, "Cerberi", why not just "Cerberus"? I can't get it out of my head that Cerberi sounds like the plural of Cerberus (which I think it is).
As for all the suggestions being posted by other members, I think people are trying to overcomplicate this unit. The OP describes it pretty thoroughly, and there isn't really too much room for improvement (aside from inevitable balancing issues).
<!--quoteo(post=1887491:date=Nov 29 2011, 07:35 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Nov 29 2011, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is pretty lame...
I will put it in my SIG then just to get people to check it out..
This is my crappy picture and my amazing paint skills...
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4497/ns2cerberi.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for helping me support the Idea, It's very well appreciated!
I might as well wear the signature myself.
I'll try editing it some day with another updated hand drawn picture that can blend well on the forum, with paint editing over it.
As it's not your paint skills that are solely to blame, (I myself am terrible at any computer art.) it's my bland pencil drawings that can't blend into any good signature that's the problem, the striking white is very unappealing along with the messy pencil strokes.
If any atist would be up to the task in drawing and editing a better picture of a Cerberus? it would be very much appreciated by me.
I'll try improving it myself of course, we'll just see.
Whichever one is best suited in the end will be edited into the original post to replace my shaggy drawing, with full credits to the creator(s) of course.
On a side note; I really need to update the Original post with all the recent and near future game changes.
Which will be done soon, but first I want to edit the support signature with cleaner text and a better drawing of which I will recycle into the OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1887596:date=Nov 30 2011, 01:35 PM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Nov 30 2011, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You bring up a very good point regarding the mechanics of Cerberi being so different from Cysts, and you're definitely convinced me.
Regarding the name, "Cerberi", why not just "Cerberus"? I can't get it out of my head that Cerberi sounds like the plural of Cerberus (which I think it is).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, I have become accustomed to calling a Cerberus; Cerberi. Even if it's not remotely plural.
I'll try and stop.
<!--quoteo(post=1887621:date=Nov 30 2011, 05:28 PM:name=BearTaxi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearTaxi @ Nov 30 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the sound of your idea. Cerberi sounds like something that could definately spice up matches.
As for all the suggestions being posted by other members, I think people are trying to overcomplicate this unit. The OP describes it pretty thoroughly, and there isn't really too much room for improvement (aside from inevitable balancing issues).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>
Needs more hats.</i>
DON'T. GIVE. THEM. IDEAS.
Infestation Spikes should be similar in concept to Cerberi!
please support!
But I would give it to the gorge.
But I would give it to the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This entire suggestion is based around the premise that the Alien Commander should have more ways to shape the environment to the aliens advantage, Like a "Cosmic Gardener" as stated in the official design documents.
(which sadly have not been updated it's been a long time...)
Frankly, with the implementation of Clogs, I'm not sure anymore if it should only be tied to the Alien Commander, but <i>that's</i> a whole other idea in itself, I tried creating theoretic statistics and mechanisms that could work with the Alien Commander.
(the whole Tres cost thing, Omnipresent spawning of the Cerberi, etc.)
It would work for the Gorge, if they cost energy instead of Tres and you had a hard limit of 3-4, but I don't really like this As I envision Cerberi as an environmental hazard instead of a Gorge tied structure, more in line with the way the Whips work right now.
(as in; turn a corner a Whip b**** slaps you / Cerberus eats your feet / Cerberus eats your feet while a Whip spanks you naughtily.)
Cerberi should be able to grow anywhere on infestation, at any time. A marine should be able to run through a room, and as he passes it, the Alien Commander starts growing a Cerberi where he passes, missing him because it takes around 4-6 seconds to grow. Then as the marine eventually sees an obvious threat inbound, he backpedals into the Cerberus, sealing his fate.
I just personally prefer the idea of marines having to keep constant vigilance on the infestation on which they walk, since it itself is alive and threatening. instead of having to look out for Gorges and Gorge nests specifically.
Infestation Spikes is the closest thing to Cerberi in the game right now (unless they removed it already) but I personally think Infestation Spikes are quite shoddy and not fun to work with... Or to fight against, or don't even promote teamwork...
I could keep rambling on and on.
In hopes UWE can acknowledge the idea, hopefully post 1.0, hopefully. Did I mention hopefully?
Also edited the OP to reflect most recently changed game mechanics etc etc.
(mostly removal of obsolete and redundant stuff, as this idea is older then dirt.)
Added:
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Applies Parasite/Hive-Sight when damaging a marine</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(gives more incentive for aliens to aknowledge a troubled marine)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Design Goal:</b>
The entire concept of the Cerberus suggestion is designed with <b>support</b> and ambush in mind, these traps are not designed to be effective <i>without</i> an alien player presence, it emphasizes the aliens and their direct connection with environmental gameplay; taking advantage of it. ex: Aliens may lead marines into these traps, they may form local ambush points, they may be dropped in the thick of battle, as marines may not notice them growing beneath their feet as they slay Kharaa, etc etc. The synergy between Cerberi and Alien Players is good enough for it to be officially implemented, in one form or another, in my honest opinion.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Mainly removed the "mature cerberi" concept, as it would be too tedious upgrading every single one as khammander, also seems like quite the work (animations, scripts, design of tendrils) for a simple range buff, Occam's Razor at it's finest.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-Added information
-rearranged it to make it more clear and concise
-I also created a decent looking signature; if anybody wants to support the Cerberus in the hopes of getting it noticed by UWE, It would be very well appreciated if you'd add it to your signature.
If your willing to help, here you go:
<div align='center'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
[url="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0"][img]http://oi50.tinypic.com/10nz4ig.jpg<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/img.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> ---> [url="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113779&st=0"][size=1]Post 1.0 Kharaa Support Structure Suggestion.<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/size.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<div align='center'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
All you need to do is remove all of the "<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" in <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/img.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->[/size.][/url.]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Then copy and paste it in your signature, it should appear exactly like mine below.
frankly this is just my format, so you can go apes*** and do something crazy/original instead.
Tell me if I understand your question correctly; from what I understand you're asking a two part question:
1. How a Cerberus would interact with an ARC?
2. And what difference it has with Bone Wall?
Seemed like simple answers, but after some thought, both are quite interesting questions... Especially the first.
With the ARC; at first I would have said that It would interact with ARCS the same way as any ground unit (Marines and EXOs) and bite up on it, causing continuous damage <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(Immersion wise; It would bite into it's tracks)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Cerberi wouldn't pose a big threat against ARCs, as marines usually escort them, or should, and would gun them down as soon as one would stop it. However, a problem did arise in theory. I kinda figure that the arc is <b>larger</b> then the Cerberus.
<img src="http://s8.postimage.org/8mv3yhevl/Cerberi_Arc_Legend.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://s14.postimage.org/t70eg6qzz/Cerberi_Arc_Marine.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As shown above, with a marine the Cerberus can be shot from all directions, and by the marine itself.
<img src="http://s9.postimage.org/cdeeljfa5/Cerberi_Arc_Sight.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
When it comes to an ARC, there may be no line of sight to the Cerberus, and the ARC can not defend itself from it, which may be problematic...
<img src="http://s7.postimage.org/n2uw9ehpl/Cerberi_Arc_Sight_fix.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So I was thinking that maybe the Cerberus would bite onto whatever It's damaging off center, leaving always a line of sight for it to be destroyed? seems unintuitive as either ways, I think flamethrowers can burn things through friendly structures last I checked, not to mention a grenades splash damage affect Cerberi when detracted.
As for what difference Cerberi have with Bone-Walls?
Cerberi
-Are not a single use structure
-Can not be placed instantly
-Are not a physical obstruction
-Have no horrendous placement cooldown
-Deal damage to marine/mobile units
-Impede only single units
-Are an environmental hazard
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->-Are <i>not</i> obvious
-Form a focal point for alien Strategy/Security
-Forces Marine Vigilence<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
But I understand the similarities of Cerberi to Bone-Walls/Infestation Spikes <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(or whatever they are actually called now)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> and the way they pop out of infestation, I guess.
The problem with Bone Wall, from last time I have seen it <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(as it is used so rarely<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->), is that it's useless for what it costs and frustrating for marines, as escape or entry to an area is blocked off for a couple of seconds seemingly pointlessly, only wasting time and that Bone Walls are indestructible, and for the aliens are not worth the Tres for what they are are actually used for; a single use brief blockade. Very situational, it seems.
One of the many reasons why I stated this:
<!--quoteo(post=1949764:date=Jul 8 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Jul 8 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bump
Infestation Spikes should be similar in concept to Cerberi!
please support!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think Cerberi are a better concept then Bone-Wall, If people actually love Bone-Wall enough for it <i>not</i> to be replaced, not sure if they would mind both Cerberi and Bonewall existing, well, I personally think it would give more viable strategies.
I wouldn't mind seeing people defend the idea of Bone-Wall's current implementation or why it would be better then Cerberi, and what use they have right now, as the points driven out could be implemented into this suggestion, frankly, making it better!