Return build 198 skulk movement
Skie
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">199 skulk is horribad</div>All right. I might be a bit biased because I was the best skulk walljumper in 198, arguably because of my map ns2_skulkjump. The new skulk movement in 199 is very, very bad. This might be the single biggest error you could have done in development.
- There's no more momentum. (not mentioned in changelog)
- It doesn't matter anymore whether you time your jumps with the white bar or not (at least from my trials). (not mentioned in changelog)
- Jumping back and forth between walls doesn't help at all anymore because there's no momentum.
So basically you removed everything that was good about the skulk movement. All the skill that you required to keep it up by constantly jumping from wall to another, it's of no use any longer. Instead now you just walk over an obstacle and get speed 12-13 for a very short time, which you lose instantly as you hit a wall or ground or any obstacle. So skulks are really just laughing stock at the moment.
The new air control feels very awkward, way too strong. The previous skulk had well enough air control because you could already jump in circles around marines and obstacles. I would go as far to say it was perfect in 198. Just see the videos of skulk movement from <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0UipPTOi2k" target="_blank">this youtube video of my map's walkthrough</a> to see how much <i>fun</i> it was to play the old skulk
To put short, I'm a bit miffed because the 198 skulk was really, really good in terms of skill based movement, but the one in 199 is outrageously disappointing. I think people just weren't used to the 198's potential yet. But 199 has no potential at all. There's no way to increase your movement speed for long periods of time. You went from "easy to learn, hard to master" mechanic to "easy to do one single ambush from a wall and then die". This is perfectly fine if you just want to cater to simple players. But for the game to have longevity and potential, you need to give the players the control of that potential, to get better at mechanics and ultimately at the game.
<i>To word myself a bit more positively: I enjoyed the 198 skulk so much that I dedicated days to make an entire map for it. It was the only alien lifeform that I wanted to play all the time after I unlocked its potential. You had something good here guys!</i>
But the cries of one player probably aren't enough to change the devs' minds. Please join up.
- There's no more momentum. (not mentioned in changelog)
- It doesn't matter anymore whether you time your jumps with the white bar or not (at least from my trials). (not mentioned in changelog)
- Jumping back and forth between walls doesn't help at all anymore because there's no momentum.
So basically you removed everything that was good about the skulk movement. All the skill that you required to keep it up by constantly jumping from wall to another, it's of no use any longer. Instead now you just walk over an obstacle and get speed 12-13 for a very short time, which you lose instantly as you hit a wall or ground or any obstacle. So skulks are really just laughing stock at the moment.
The new air control feels very awkward, way too strong. The previous skulk had well enough air control because you could already jump in circles around marines and obstacles. I would go as far to say it was perfect in 198. Just see the videos of skulk movement from <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0UipPTOi2k" target="_blank">this youtube video of my map's walkthrough</a> to see how much <i>fun</i> it was to play the old skulk
To put short, I'm a bit miffed because the 198 skulk was really, really good in terms of skill based movement, but the one in 199 is outrageously disappointing. I think people just weren't used to the 198's potential yet. But 199 has no potential at all. There's no way to increase your movement speed for long periods of time. You went from "easy to learn, hard to master" mechanic to "easy to do one single ambush from a wall and then die". This is perfectly fine if you just want to cater to simple players. But for the game to have longevity and potential, you need to give the players the control of that potential, to get better at mechanics and ultimately at the game.
<i>To word myself a bit more positively: I enjoyed the 198 skulk so much that I dedicated days to make an entire map for it. It was the only alien lifeform that I wanted to play all the time after I unlocked its potential. You had something good here guys!</i>
But the cries of one player probably aren't enough to change the devs' minds. Please join up.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
it makes sense that a teched up marine can wreck the lowest life form..
and if you ever wish to sway the balance there are two factors: skill and teamwork. (teamwork can make up for skill, too)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1908638:date=Mar 1 2012, 04:50 AM:name=John Blackthorne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John Blackthorne @ Mar 1 2012, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're forgetting that the Kharaa rely far more on map control for their strength/upgrades then the Frontiersmen do, as well as the difference in rez to buy weapons/ items VS. evolving into new lifeforms effectiveness has quite a large gap. The shotgun cost 20 rez and pretty much rocks from start to finish, the lerk cost 30 rez and is a complete joke in its current state. Even a marine with the LMG can still do more for the team then a skulk can in its current state. As every patch goes by it just feels like the aliens are in development hell and have no clear direction. Every life form should still be useful at any point in the game.
P.S: Some people only want to play skulk!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is from another thread but i feel it fits well here.a lot of people agree with you Skie even if they don't all post here
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116726" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116726</a>
i trained walljumping for hours in 197/198 and it worked very well in some parts of the maps.
And yesterday i found Skie's skulkjumpmap and was glad to have the chance to improve myself.
But 199 is just eeeeeewwwwww sry i don't know the words to discribe it.it feels just wrong.
198 wasn't perfect but i think 199 is a step backwards.
So far I'm not sure about the new aircontrol: It's nice for leaping around the map but not good, at least for me, in combat, as I cannot jump sidewards without watching in that direction. Watching in another direction while being shot in close combat confuses so much as the marines also moves so I lost keep tracking of him and the marine will win the fight.
Many builds ago I read something in the changelog like "Remove chaos of combat": IMO this builds brings it completely back but mostly for skulks!
The change of the skulk was really a step backwards.
Air control was not improved, I would say it feels very broken and unnatural now.
Beside the fact, that I haven't played with this patch right now, ^THIS should NEVER be an argument. It's a beta. Things are changing because they have to. Some changes may be bad. But never argue with "I was used to the old mechanic, so change it back." This will not make the game better and makes a beta completely pointless.
that being said it's laughable that the devs think wall jumping is somehow more intuitive or easier to learn than bunnyhopping.
It's not so much the fact that it's different.
It's more the fact that it is unreliable, and it's nearly impossible to keep jumping from wall to wall.
The old mechanic at least had some kind of depth.
But unfortunately UWE didn't draw the skulk speedmeter for everyone, so people never learned it.
You should try the new skulk, I'm sure you will agree with the OP. The skulk feels very unnatural now.
This new air control could find it's niche somewhere.
How about giving air control to leap? While retaining the b198 concept of conserved momentum in wall jumping.
That way it becomes a 2nd hive ability, and is in essence comparable to fade blink as a another means of travelling and attacking.
This not only pleases everybody by introducing both concepts but also increases the skill-based movement cap by giving two different forms of movement for the skulk to master.
What I don't like especially about the new skulk wall jump is the ability to make complete 180 degree turns in mid air. While adding to skill, its aesthetically unappealing. A simple fix would be to lock the degree in which you can turn in mid-air. Maybe to 90 degrees. Its still unrealistic but its a hell of a lot better than a full turn.
As for people trying to re-pitch bunny hopping. Its not gonna happen, it looks silly, its dated and trite and just because you enjoyed it in one game doesn't mean it'll be good for another game. Imagine bunny hopping being implemented in Bioshock or Unreal Tournament III or Left 4 Dead. In these cases it would decrease the game's quality, immersion and isn't necessary, NS2 is the same. So please stop pitching bunny hopping, its getting old.
Try "wigglewalk"(ie. spamming A and D) in midair jumping with the skulk.
You will get consistent 9.5 without a script.
Sure you can do the same by just holding W and moving the mouse HL1 style, but it's alot harder to gain speed that way.
Also in 198 I could jump from a wall by pressing A/D and jump. In 199 you can't do this anymore.
Alot of changes, that make it almost impossible to keep your speed.
Agreeded, now marines are doing circles around skulks.
I played yesterday and could not land a bite to save my soul. Everytime I got up to a marine they would start jumping around and I swear if I could see it in 3rd person view, they were jumping overtop of me even when I was jumping.
I could hardly keep them in my view, I felt blinded to say the least.
I did not have this problem prior to 199.
Also lerk feels slower now ._.
"It's just beta" got old when they set a release date to summer. As far as I can tell, things as significant as starting lifeform movement mechanics should be pretty much nailed down at this point. By all means feel free to make changes, but right now they better happen according to a well considered plan that leads somewhere.
The code has been changed a bit, so I think a simple copy-paste will not work, but it shouldn't be so hard.
Also, is the marine slower or it's me ?
EDIT: The friction code seems to be in Player.lua... I don't think I have the endurance right now to fix all this.
<a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/61111963/skulk%20b198%20lua.zip" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/61111963/skulk%20b198%20lua.zip</a>
Yuuki: Everything seems slower to me, although they upped skulk base speed from 7 to 8 (the skulk.lua says 7.5 but ingame it's 8?!). They didn't change Marine speed directly, as far as I can see.
I mean you can make it easier to do, so its only about timing jumps and managing your movement correctly depending on game world (preparing to move around corners, and not jumping into objects) to keep the momentum... (you can adjust the difficulty by tweaking the timewindow in which the followup jump must be made, and by decreasing the aircontrol the faster you go - so no "u"-turns, or instant sharp corners while keeping momentum etc...)
You could make it as simple as W+Jump.
Look at tribes (btw, tribes 4 <a href="https://account.hirezstudios.com/tribesascend/" target="_blank">tribes:ascend</a> free2play), while its not bhop there... skiing is super easy to do and understand, but still relative deep. (you need to know the hills and routes of the map very good and then time everything correctly etc)
Walljump is fun and all, it also has depth - but it will never be as useful as bhop... -its a lot slower to do so its only doable in certain situations or with careful preparation.
So ppl tend to only do the quick speedboost move that got removed with 199 (while on ground strafe into wall + jump) - it was fast, reliable and gave and ok speedboost for a few meters.
Pretty much the only fun thing that worked more reliable (tho still not perfect) is now gone :(
perhaps they were going somewhere with the speed increase, and air control..<i><b>.to add on</b></i> to what we already have but yet didn't finish everything and released it early to us? idk..
it will probably get ironed out though. they know the importance of skulk movement very well (thats why they are still tinkering so heavily with it in the last few months)
But as for the added air control, It feels GREAT. I absolutely LOVE toying with marines. I dance around until they empty their guns, then I go for the buffet.
This is how most of my skulk vs marine fights go...
HEY MARINE!!!
*start dodging*
*bang bang bang*
na na nana na!! cant hit me!!!! na na nana na!!!!
*bang bang CLICK----*
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->OM NOM NOM!!!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The most awkward sensation ever.
that being said it's laughable that the devs think wall jumping is somehow more intuitive or easier to learn than bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1908785:date=Mar 1 2012, 08:37 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Mar 1 2012, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a really cool map, I wasn't aware of its existence. Thanks!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your interest. The map was really fun in 198, but now majority of the jumps are undoable. No amount of map fixing will make it fun once more. I hope we can revert back to 198.
I only released the map a few days ago, thread at: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116704" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116704</a>
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I copied over the b198 skulk files and got no lua errors yet, so it seems to work. They've changed about 300 lines of code for the skulk, so making a proper mod will be a lot of work. I don't know if any other files have part in this, I'll have to look around a bit more.
EDIT: The friction code seems to be in Player.lua... I don't think I have the endurance right now to fix all this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great that you have backups. This excites me.
The issue is the new Air Friction feature they have added, lerks, skulks and fades all feel as if they are moving through treacle. For those of you looking to mod the skulk code, just trying reducing air friction. You'll end with a faster more manouverable skulk, lerk and fade :)
---Edit-------
It appears the friction scale is 1 for air movement.
Lots of stuff is working in strange ways regarding movement and walljumping is completely broken right now. Even the most simple things such as skulk max speed are broken. It got upped to 7.5 from 7 in this build, but if you measure it, it is actually 8. Just WTF?
To quote myself from another thread (yet again):
<!--quoteo(post=1908774:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My first observations after a bit of testing:
<ol type='1'><li>Skulk walljump is completely broken now. You actually have to get on the wall now to recieve a speedboost, which is incredibly hard and tedious to do, while jumping when still on ground near a wall results in the skulk not even attempting to jump. Gaining any significant speed boost is impossible without making huge detours now and sometimes you won't even get a speedboost, so it's pretty useless.</li><li>New air control feels strange. All of the observations below are for skulk.
<ol type='a'><li>Holding W and alternating A and D while jumping gives you ~9.5 speed and makes you "wiggle" in the air. You can achieve the same speedboost by changing view direction, but it's pretty hard.</li><li>Not holding W while alternating A and D while jumping gives you less air control/speed.</li><li>Jumping forward, releasing W and then alternating A and D results in either:
<ol type='1'><li>An uncontrolled jump sideways (not because of pressing the A/D key too early, unless jumping is bugged and lags behind and you are still "on ground" for longer than you should).</li><li> Slowing down to ~6.5, less air control than with holding W.</li></ol></li><li>Holding S and jumping slows you down to 2 (?!).</li><li>Holding W and alternating A and D while on ground slows you down to ~6.5.</li></ol></li><li>Fade needs more air control and strafe blink to feel good, but it's a step in the right direction.</li><li>Fade shadowstep cuts my fps in half while the effect is showing.</li></ol>
Also, print() seems to be broken, which makes debugging mods a lot harder (at least for me). It doesn't print anything in the console for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->