<!--quoteo(post=1908916:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:37 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I've always thought of hidden server mods on public servers as a bad thing. It completely changes the whole feedback cycle if players don't even know they're playing a modded version of the current game. <ul><li>UWE makes fades stronger. </li><li>Server owner thinks fades are too strong and makes fades weaker and maybe overshoots a tiny bit.</li><li>Players think fade is too weak.</li><li>Go back to point #1.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just another good reason why uwe should now hurry up and support mods properly by adding file checking and downloading while also making it very clear what servers are pure or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1908933:date=Mar 2 2012, 01:02 AM:name=Electr0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electr0 @ Mar 2 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just another good reason why uwe should now hurry up and support mods properly by adding file checking and downloading while also making it very clear what servers are pure or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1, I completely agree that all gameplay related mods should be made visible, and apply to all people. The mods should be made to people can actively chose whether or not they want to play with a certain mod, and then the server should make sure that the players all have the same mod, and that the server clearly shows what a particular mod does. Where is our motd? :p
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1908933:date=Mar 2 2012, 01:02 AM:name=Electr0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electr0 @ Mar 2 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just another good reason why uwe should now hurry up and support mods properly by adding file checking and downloading while also making it very clear what servers are pure or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is, although I'm not very keen on that, since I'm currently using a bunch of mods to make the game <b>a lot</b> more enjoyable for me and server owners would need a list of allowed mods including hashes for every new version of the files. You cannot even allow a single file to be changed, since you can access pretty much everything from every other file, so even simple mods like minimap transparency all need server-side checking.
I only wish the original game was as enjoyable for me as it is with my mods. :x
To be clear, I'm not against hash-checks and stuff, I'd just personally like to be able to mod for a bit longer until the game is mostly ready for release.
<!--quoteo(post=1908854:date=Mar 1 2012, 06:00 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 1 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't find 100% air control fun to play. Nor to play against. The zig zagging mid air isn't fun. Watching skulks jump forward then spin around and start moving backward in the air is not fun.
I found the 198 skulk movement a lot better to play as a skulk and as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone who plays a lot of quake-like games (q3, ql, qw, cpma, warsow...) the huge air control is exactly what I want from FPS games.
Why don't you find it fun to play from the skulk's point of view? Just curious.
Either way, when the shift is implemented aliens will be doing a lot more unpredictable movement and marines will be working a lot harder on their aim. I look at these new mechanics as a way of teasing that.
<!--quoteo(post=1908955:date=Mar 1 2012, 08:35 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone who plays a lot of quake-like games (q3, ql, qw, cpma, warsow...) the huge air control is exactly what I want from FPS games.
Why don't you find it fun to play from the skulk's point of view? Just curious.
Either way, when the shift is implemented aliens will be doing a lot more unpredictable movement and marines will be working a lot harder on their aim. I look at these new mechanics as a way of teasing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i don't mind air control but the amount of air control is ridiculous. you shouldn't be able to instantaneously accelerate in any direction to full speed while midair, while on the ground you can't. it just doesn't make sense and doesn't feel right.
<!--quoteo(post=1908964:date=Mar 1 2012, 05:44 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 1 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't mind air control but the amount of air control is ridiculous. you shouldn't be able to instantaneously accelerate in any direction to full speed while midair, while on the ground you can't. it just doesn't make sense and doesn't feel right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is very little prediction involved, too. Its just face smashing WASD to dodge in mid-air as opposed to planning your trajectories and either getting rewarded or punished for how well they were executed. The current air control rewards just spazzing out in any direction you want+hopping non-stop to avoid getting hit. There's no more terrain advantages either since wall-jumping and momentum got absolutely butchered...
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
you are wrong about momentum. before what you called momentum was a hacky implementation. We build some artificial mechanic on top of the already present player movement physics (which supports momentum implicite) to try out how well momentum works with the skulk. this hack has been removed and instead everything works now with friction and acceleration (friction was btw almost totally ignored before, a big flaw). what you might call momentum here is i guess the ability to store up some part of your impact velocity and release this stored energy on the next well timed jump (white bar indication in skulk speed meter). this mechanic will have a come back, and the skulk movement will be polished more to give you the same, but improved feeling without using hacks but "real" physics.
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.
@skie: please don't delete your map :) i enjoyed very much watching your trick jump video and i want to be possible again
<!--quoteo(post=1908938:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:08 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Mar 1 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is, although I'm not very keen on that, since I'm currently using a bunch of mods to make the game <b>a lot</b> more enjoyable for me and server owners would need a list of allowed mods including hashes for every new version of the files. You cannot even allow a single file to be changed, since you can access pretty much everything from every other file, so even simple mods like minimap transparency all need server-side checking.
I only wish the original game was as enjoyable for me as it is with my mods. :x
To be clear, I'm not against hash-checks and stuff, I'd just personally like to be able to mod for a bit longer until the game is mostly ready for release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you have anything to worry about, im quite looking forward to checking out modded servers but it should be clear to players if they're pure or not, perhaps they could add something like a text poppup on mouse over that server admins create listing the main changes before a person even connects, a bit like tags but more detailed.
Good to see it explained, thank you. I will remain optimistic about the future polishing of skulk movement... but the current implementation is not fun :P Will be waiting for the upcoming patches with much anticipation!
An important thing to note is NS1 had the basically the same flaw, you could A-D skulk strafing left/right very fast (even worse with celerity). But this almost never was a problem because while your attempting to be as difficult to hit as possible, you are not closing the distance to the marine in an effective way, and better fps/hit detection meant that it was still quite killable if you had decent aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1908974:date=Mar 1 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are wrong about momentum. before what you called momentum was a hacky implementation. We build some artificial mechanic on top of the already present player movement physics (which supports momentum implicite) to try out how well momentum works with the skulk. this hack has been removed and instead everything works now with friction and acceleration (friction was btw almost totally ignored before, a big flaw). what you might call momentum here is i guess the ability to store up some part of your impact velocity and release this stored energy on the next well timed jump (white bar indication in skulk speed meter). this mechanic will have a come back, and the skulk movement will be polished more to give you the same, but improved feeling without using hacks but "real" physics.
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.
@skie: please don't delete your map :) i enjoyed very much watching your trick jump video and i want to be possible again<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Schimmel for the explanation understanding makes the difference, but as others have said its just not an enjoyable experience to play the skulk at the moment. I believe alot of people shall be waiting for an update to play again. Looking forward to them :)
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 01:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not going to revert the changes, and we'd prefer people didn't spend time trying to make mods to revert the changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You designed the game so open and free to modding. Anything we don't like we will change and play instead. If you want the game played as you developers intend it, lock the game up.
<!--quoteo(post=1908997:date=Mar 2 2012, 01:53 AM:name=fallout1333)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fallout1333 @ Mar 2 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You designed the game so open and free to modding. Anything we don't like we will change and play instead. If you want the game played as you developers intend it, lock the game up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course we want the game open to modding, however, if a large amount of people and servers start downloading and running a mod during this Beta phase that totally changes the alien movement, then that is really not going to allow us to get the correct data we need to improve the gameplay properly.
<!--quoteo(post=1909033:date=Mar 1 2012, 11:03 PM:name=Silverwing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silverwing @ Mar 1 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it is great that you worked hard to become good at something!
This is a beta. Things change.
Work within the system.
Kthxbai.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the kind of thing where you're just begging us to stalk you, and pounce whenever you develop something cool and it gets trampled on. Also, you didn't reason out any of what you said. Big boys make arguments, not catchphrases :)
<!--quoteo(post=1909044:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:19 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the kind of thing where you're just begging us to stalk you, and pounce whenever you develop something cool and it gets trampled on. Also, you didn't reason out any of what you said. Big boys make arguments, not catchphrases :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ouch.
Bring on the stalkonization, I never create*, I merely consume and opine. But isn't that the real issue in this thread? =) If you need me to type it out:
While getting treally good at specific (twitch) skills is (sometimes) admirable, this is an ever-evolving, ever-changing playingfield, so getting caught up in minutiae might not be the best investment of your time. The developers are working towards a goal and sometimes your specific skill (like my "flying out of the map and wtfpwning ppl"-skill from early alpha) is rendered useless. So wait. And move on.
Yeah that's valid, except they put so much emphasis on walljumping, and then (accidentally) pulled it out from under the players. It's easy to see why people are not happy, even though it'll be ancient history in like 2 or 3 days.
<!--quoteo(post=1908974:date=Mar 2 2012, 03:03 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 2 2012, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@skie: please don't delete your map :) i enjoyed very much watching your trick jump video and i want to be possible again<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know the 'momentum' was actually like 'storing energy' because I was exploring the walljumping .lua files while making the map. Many aspects (every route: easy, medium, difficult) depended on the energy storing mechanic. First route taught you it, second route improved your understanding on it, the last route you needed to be a master at it to pass the jumps. It was excitingly unique and fun - promoted walking on walls and keeping up your movement all the time so that you wouldn't lose that magical momentum.
So if there won't be a similar mechanic it won't be playable again. But if I grow fond of the new, upcoming jumping system, I'll just make a new map. :)
At least I got a neat video how the 198 used to be. It was really enjoyable.
<!--quoteo(post=1909013:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course we want the game open to modding, however, if a large amount of people and servers start downloading and running a mod during this Beta phase that totally changes the alien movement, then that is really not going to allow us to get the correct data we need to improve the gameplay properly.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you guys now ignoring the mod community and this issue?
We've asked for and wanted to see proper mod support by now, allowing mods to be created at the moment is all very well except that no one can reasonably play them, i would think the issue of unknown server side mods and balance changes would push you to add full mod support like server downloads, file checking and showing whether a server is pure or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1909210:date=Mar 2 2012, 03:18 PM:name=Electr0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electr0 @ Mar 2 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you guys now ignoring the mod community and this issue?
We've asked for and wanted to see proper mod support by now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but this is not as important as finishing the game in time and have it to be fun. Your high priority on mod support can not be that high for the devs. Stop demanding something and try to be helpful. It isn't complicate to understand, that you need pure data for balancing a game. The moding contradicts the purpose of the beta, hindering the progress of development and the mod support is simply not so important, that it can't be implemented later. Try to understand, that the devs time costs money, and they can't waste it in not so important things.
<!--quoteo(post=1909215:date=Mar 2 2012, 09:37 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 2 2012, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909215"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but this is not as important as finishing the game in time and have it to be fun. Your high priority on mod support can not be that high for the devs. Stop demanding something and try to be helpful. It isn't complicate to understand, that you need pure data for balancing a game. The moding contradicts the purpose of the beta, hindering the progress of development and the mod support is simply not so important, that it can't be implemented later. Try to understand, that the devs time costs money, and they can't waste it in not so important things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to see why it's important i guess, lots of fixes and improvements have come from the mod community already which you now enjoy, do you like summit?
Well you would have been stuck playing rockdown and tram up until very recently, the point is there's a lot more to gain by fully supporting the mod community sooner rather than later, also things like file checking have to be worked on anyway to prevent cheats and stuff, showing whether a server is pure or not is equally important and lastly adding downloads isn't really that difficult compared to some of the things they're working on, perhaps it's not a top priority but it's certainly about time it was added, only good can come from it, people aren't going to stop playing the official version.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not going to revert the changes, and we'd prefer people didn't spend time trying to make mods to revert the changes.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is sooo sad to read, seriously! I've been among the people who had great performance trough 198 thanks to a beefy CPU. Skulk gameplay really had been enjoyable that way, it had a great feel to it the way it worked. And yes, it's been obvious that people who had "the better hardware" had an gameplay advantage.
But shouldn't the goal be to beef up the whole userbase to that kind of "gameplay" instead of dumping it down based on technical restrictions? The 198 skulk felt great to play, the current skulk feels like it's laggy, broken, unresponsive and all kinds of unfun. That "base speed" you selected for everyone, it just doesn't work for me...
I haven't kept up with the changelogs so i always thought these gameplay changes had been a result of performance issues on the server side. Instead i now see that you guys rather "nerfed" the thing to death for some kind of "balance" in an game that's not even feature complete at this point :/
Same also applies to the new Fade btw, the "double tap" movement feels crappy and doesn't work. It frustrates twitchy players and kharaa should all about being responsive, twitchy, fast. It's also unintuitive because it doesn't translate well into a fluid gameplay. You kill all the fun movement options with kharaa that made them unique to play in the first place :(
The current build feels broken to me, it's no fun to play at all. I don't know if it's the bad performance (serverside lag?) or the gameplay changes or simply a combination of both.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I have no problem with the new skulk. And as the devs say, this isnt the final version, so more tweaks coming soon.
I kill 6 marines in 20 sec yesterday as a skulk, so it cant be so broken ;)
They are on the right way in my opinion.
Btw, wth is skillmovement? In BF3 you can crouch, sprint and walk. Im sure noone is missing "skillmovement" there. You need much "skill" to bind some kind of jump-scripts on a mousebutton. I really hope we dont see something like that in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=1909275:date=Mar 2 2012, 08:54 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Mar 2 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, wth is skillmovement? In BF3 you can crouch, sprint and walk. Im sure noone is missing "skillmovement" there. You need much "skill" to bind some kind of jump-scripts on a mousebutton. I really hope we dont see something like that in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I think in build 198 you could say 'skill movement' especially with skulk was that if you timed your jump from a wall the right way, you would get more boost than just spamming jump or hitting it instantly. If you did this two or three times in a row, you got up to the maximum speed of 13, which is just 1 less than the speed when you do a leap with skulk. And if you clinged to a wall, you kept this speed of 13 or close to it for quite a long time. So there was a lot of depth to it.
Bunnyhopping is all about hitting the jump button when you hit the ground. In 198 it was hitting the jump button at a right time since a) your last jump, b) after the time you landed on a wall.
But apparently there will be some sort of momentum storing mechanic in patch 200, which makes me partially happy already.
I think the skulk changes move in the right direction, just needs a few more tweaks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping is all about hitting the jump button when you hit the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's not. It may be required, but there is so much more to it.
We definitely don't want to restore the old Skulk movement: there was a BIG bug in it, resulting in players with faster computers actually being able to MOVE faster. Raise your hand if you want a game that gives that advantage. I didn't think so.
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...
Comments
<ul><li>UWE makes fades stronger. </li><li>Server owner thinks fades are too strong and makes fades weaker and maybe overshoots a tiny bit.</li><li>Players think fade is too weak.</li><li>Go back to point #1.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just another good reason why uwe should now hurry up and support mods properly by adding file checking and downloading while also making it very clear what servers are pure or not.
+1, I completely agree that all gameplay related mods should be made visible, and apply to all people. The mods should be made to people can actively chose whether or not they want to play with a certain mod, and then the server should make sure that the players all have the same mod, and that the server clearly shows what a particular mod does. Where is our motd? :p
It is, although I'm not very keen on that, since I'm currently using a bunch of mods to make the game <b>a lot</b> more enjoyable for me and server owners would need a list of allowed mods including hashes for every new version of the files. You cannot even allow a single file to be changed, since you can access pretty much everything from every other file, so even simple mods like minimap transparency all need server-side checking.
I only wish the original game was as enjoyable for me as it is with my mods. :x
To be clear, I'm not against hash-checks and stuff, I'd just personally like to be able to mod for a bit longer until the game is mostly ready for release.
I found the 198 skulk movement a lot better to play as a skulk and as a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone who plays a lot of quake-like games (q3, ql, qw, cpma, warsow...) the huge air control is exactly what I want from FPS games.
Why don't you find it fun to play from the skulk's point of view? Just curious.
Either way, when the shift is implemented aliens will be doing a lot more unpredictable movement and marines will be working a lot harder on their aim. I look at these new mechanics as a way of teasing that.
198 skulk movement was amazing and now 199 you can barely move, I don't get it
Why don't you find it fun to play from the skulk's point of view? Just curious.
Either way, when the shift is implemented aliens will be doing a lot more unpredictable movement and marines will be working a lot harder on their aim. I look at these new mechanics as a way of teasing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't mind air control but the amount of air control is ridiculous. you shouldn't be able to instantaneously accelerate in any direction to full speed while midair, while on the ground you can't. it just doesn't make sense and doesn't feel right.
There is very little prediction involved, too. Its just face smashing WASD to dodge in mid-air as opposed to planning your trajectories and either getting rewarded or punished for how well they were executed. The current air control rewards just spazzing out in any direction you want+hopping non-stop to avoid getting hit. There's no more terrain advantages either since wall-jumping and momentum got absolutely butchered...
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.
@skie: please don't delete your map :) i enjoyed very much watching your trick jump video and i want to be possible again
I only wish the original game was as enjoyable for me as it is with my mods. :x
To be clear, I'm not against hash-checks and stuff, I'd just personally like to be able to mod for a bit longer until the game is mostly ready for release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you have anything to worry about, im quite looking forward to checking out modded servers but it should be clear to players if they're pure or not, perhaps they could add something like a text poppup on mouse over that server admins create listing the main changes before a person even connects, a bit like tags but more detailed.
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.
@skie: please don't delete your map :) i enjoyed very much watching your trick jump video and i want to be possible again<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Schimmel for the explanation understanding makes the difference, but as others have said its just not an enjoyable experience to play the skulk at the moment. I believe alot of people shall be waiting for an update to play again. Looking forward to them :)
I hope the skulk will be back to it's former hopping glory in no time, this time with properly written code/physics. :)
You designed the game so open and free to modding. Anything we don't like we will change and play instead. If you want the game played as you developers intend it, lock the game up.
Of course we want the game open to modding, however, if a large amount of people and servers start downloading and running a mod during this Beta phase that totally changes the alien movement, then that is really not going to allow us to get the correct data we need to improve the gameplay properly.
--Cory
This is a beta. Things change.
Work within the system.
Kthxbai.
This is a beta. Things change.
Work within the system.
Kthxbai.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the kind of thing where you're just begging us to stalk you, and pounce whenever you develop something cool and it gets trampled on. Also, you didn't reason out any of what you said. Big boys make arguments, not catchphrases :)
Ouch.
Bring on the stalkonization, I never create*, I merely consume and opine. But isn't that the real issue in this thread? =)
If you need me to type it out:
While getting treally good at specific (twitch) skills is (sometimes) admirable, this is an ever-evolving, ever-changing playingfield, so getting caught up in minutiae might not be the best investment of your time. The developers are working towards a goal and sometimes your specific skill (like my "flying out of the map and wtfpwning ppl"-skill from early alpha) is rendered useless. So wait. And move on.
*) Not true, but close enough for this forum
I know the 'momentum' was actually like 'storing energy' because I was exploring the walljumping .lua files while making the map. Many aspects (every route: easy, medium, difficult) depended on the energy storing mechanic. First route taught you it, second route improved your understanding on it, the last route you needed to be a master at it to pass the jumps. It was excitingly unique and fun - promoted walking on walls and keeping up your movement all the time so that you wouldn't lose that magical momentum.
So if there won't be a similar mechanic it won't be playable again. But if I grow fond of the new, upcoming jumping system, I'll just make a new map. :)
At least I got a neat video how the 198 used to be. It was really enjoyable.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you guys now ignoring the mod community and this issue?
We've asked for and wanted to see proper mod support by now, allowing mods to be created at the moment is all very well except that no one can reasonably play them, i would think the issue of unknown server side mods and balance changes would push you to add full mod support like server downloads, file checking and showing whether a server is pure or not.
We've asked for and wanted to see proper mod support by now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but this is not as important as finishing the game in time and have it to be fun. Your high priority on mod support can not be that high for the devs. Stop demanding something and try to be helpful. It isn't complicate to understand, that you need pure data for balancing a game. The moding contradicts the purpose of the beta, hindering the progress of development and the mod support is simply not so important, that it can't be implemented later. Try to understand, that the devs time costs money, and they can't waste it in not so important things.
You fail to see why it's important i guess, lots of fixes and improvements have come from the mod community already which you now enjoy, do you like summit?
Well you would have been stuck playing rockdown and tram up until very recently, the point is there's a lot more to gain by fully supporting the mod community sooner rather than later, also things like file checking have to be worked on anyway to prevent cheats and stuff, showing whether a server is pure or not is equally important and lastly adding downloads isn't really that difficult compared to some of the things they're working on, perhaps it's not a top priority but it's certainly about time it was added, only good can come from it, people aren't going to stop playing the official version.
There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.
Some stuff with sticking to walls was changed, as before skulks slipped off walls more frequently, but it has created some issues with skulks being too sticky, which we know about and are working on improving. And we are going to try and get wall hopping working better again, as well.
Lerks being too slow in the air was just an side issue of this new movement code, and will be fixed for the next patch. We plan on tweaking this movement to work better, but it is the direction we are going in, and hope people will spend more time with it to get a better feeling for it.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is sooo sad to read, seriously!
I've been among the people who had great performance trough 198 thanks to a beefy CPU.
Skulk gameplay really had been enjoyable that way, it had a great feel to it the way it worked.
And yes, it's been obvious that people who had "the better hardware" had an gameplay advantage.
But shouldn't the goal be to beef up the whole userbase to that kind of "gameplay" instead of dumping it down based on technical restrictions?
The 198 skulk felt great to play, the current skulk feels like it's laggy, broken, unresponsive and all kinds of unfun.
That "base speed" you selected for everyone, it just doesn't work for me...
I haven't kept up with the changelogs so i always thought these gameplay changes had been a result of performance issues on the server side.
Instead i now see that you guys rather "nerfed" the thing to death for some kind of "balance" in an game that's not even feature complete at this point :/
Same also applies to the new Fade btw, the "double tap" movement feels crappy and doesn't work. It frustrates twitchy players and kharaa should all about being responsive, twitchy, fast. It's also unintuitive because it doesn't translate well into a fluid gameplay. You kill all the fun movement options with kharaa that made them unique to play in the first place :(
The current build feels broken to me, it's no fun to play at all. I don't know if it's the bad performance (serverside lag?) or the gameplay changes or simply a combination of both.
I kill 6 marines in 20 sec yesterday as a skulk, so it cant be so broken ;)
They are on the right way in my opinion.
Btw, wth is skillmovement? In BF3 you can crouch, sprint and walk. Im sure noone is missing "skillmovement" there.
You need much "skill" to bind some kind of jump-scripts on a mousebutton. I really hope we dont see something like that in ns2.
You need much "skill" to bind some kind of jump-scripts on a mousebutton. I really hope we dont see something like that in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think in build 198 you could say 'skill movement' especially with skulk was that if you timed your jump from a wall the right way, you would get more boost than just spamming jump or hitting it instantly. If you did this two or three times in a row, you got up to the maximum speed of 13, which is just 1 less than the speed when you do a leap with skulk. And if you clinged to a wall, you kept this speed of 13 or close to it for quite a long time. So there was a lot of depth to it.
Bunnyhopping is all about hitting the jump button when you hit the ground. In 198 it was hitting the jump button at a right time since a) your last jump, b) after the time you landed on a wall.
But apparently there will be some sort of momentum storing mechanic in patch 200, which makes me partially happy already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping is all about hitting the jump button when you hit the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not. It may be required, but there is so much more to it.
The proper balance for the Skulk may not be in this version, but we'll continue to iterate until he feels smooth and great on every machine.
But if you had a very fast machine before, I'm afraid that "old skulk" will be gone for good. At least you got to enjoy super-powers for awhile...