<!--quoteo(post=1930148:date=Apr 26 2012, 01:22 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Apr 26 2012, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of all the things that bug you about the game as it is, marines being able to jump sticks out? I understand everybody is entitled to their opinion, but the marines jumping ability is highly sluggish and clumsy. I've never once had the problem of marines being overly athletic while i'm trying to bite them (it's hardly good enough to dodge effectively with), and i'm not sure what you're suggesting that spamming the jump button actually achieves (apart from the marine bobbing slightly up and down like a munter).
Also, the idea of forcing a marine not to be able to jump just limits him too much (if he gets stuck in a small ditch he'll be unable to get out, can't crawl into certain vents after skulks, cant even jump over a simple railing etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify. I never said I wanted the ability to jump taken out. Marines need to jump on occasions to clear obstacles etc. Its the bouncing up and down repeatedly I don't like.
@ Tweadle
No offence taken. I just want to be able to make my point without any negativity and have no problem with counter arguments at all. I think its great how passionate we are about the game. The NS community has always been better than most and I welcome debate on this and other topics. Tbh I don't expect UW will change anything for little old me ;) They have a vision for the game and often game devs take criticism to heart and end up changing things for the worse so they should stick to their plan.
I am sure I read a statement by either Cory or Charlie ages ago stating they did not like the jumping either but maybe the way it is now is as far as it will go and they are happy with it. And it was a fair while ago and its not as bad as it used to be. And that is fair enough, its their game and I will play whatever they do, and I trust them to deliver a great game at retail
On a lighter note, just had a few matches on line as I am off work and so far I like it.
If anything, rines need more movement, they should be able to pull their switch ax out and bhop around the map at hyperspeed, like a true competitive game.
Melee becomes too much of a cluste###### with jumping due to the very narrow skulk view window (with the teeth and all) and the fact that jumping makes the collision system act even wonkier then it normally does. Nevertheless I do not think a marine should stand a chance 1v1 against a skulk who got into melee, they already have far superior synergy to skulks due to having guns and being able to support each other anywhere in LoS. Still this is hardly a problem as long as leap comes out so damn early, which imo it shouldnt.
EDIT: Perhaps one might consider nerfing jump immediately after getting hit in melee (or making one loose most of his momentum like he did in NS1). That way you would have plenty of leg room to avoid first contact but after that your in for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1929733:date=Apr 25 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 25 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to bang on but the skulk spam jumping is still a major problem for me. In build 204 it seems to lessen somewhat and I was very happy about it. But its back with a vengeance and all a player has to do is wait a split second to hit the space bar and bounce around like an idiot. It just doesn't fit well into the game at all for me. The skulks should be on the ground unless they're on a wall or have leap. A severe speed penalty maybe or something when jumping or a higher stamina drain after each jump for a longer period than is already implemented. Its still the only major part of the game I do not like.
I could not agree more with the OP about jumping as a problem in the game.
Marines bunny hopping around and maintaining perfect accuracy is quite annoying and seems out of place for this game.
Accuracy should be next to nothing when marines make consecutive jumps.
Those people trying to flip the argument back on skulks jumping around being the problem doesn't make any sense logically as that's their MO. Its well within the theme of this alien wall walking dog to jump around avoiding fire to get within melee range to munch down on some marine flesh. However, its not within the theme for a marine to jump around like a bunny and still be able to shoot with perfect accuracy. There should be a trade off, jump around and avoid bites but be very inaccurate and hope your companions bail you out, or stay grounded and maintain good accuracy and hope the skulk misses enough times that your accurate lmg finishes him off in time.
If we are simply talking 1v1 then marines have the advantage at a distance and skulks close up, this balances out later with the addition of shotguns to make marines more viable up close and the skulks leap ability providing them with the means to reduce the distance between themselves and marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1930322:date=Apr 26 2012, 11:12 AM:name=fr33py)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr33py @ Apr 26 2012, 11:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could not agree more with the OP about jumping as a problem in the game.
Marines bunny hopping around and maintaining perfect accuracy is quite annoying and seems out of place for this game.
Accuracy should be next to nothing when marines make consecutive jumps.
Those people trying to flip the argument back on skulks jumping around being the problem doesn't make any sense logically as that's their MO. Its well within the theme of this alien wall walking dog to jump around avoiding fire to get within melee range to munch down on some marine flesh. However, its not within the theme for a marine to jump around like a bunny and still be able to shoot with perfect accuracy. There should be a trade off, jump around and avoid bites but be very inaccurate and hope your companions bail you out, or stay grounded and maintain good accuracy and hope the skulk misses enough times that your accurate lmg finishes him off in time.
If we are simply talking 1v1 then marines have the advantage at a distance and skulks close up, this balances out later with the addition of shotguns to make marines more viable up close and the skulks leap ability providing them with the means to reduce the distance between themselves and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, lets nerf marines more. Whats next, they can't move without their bullets spraying behind their head because of accuracy degradation? Stop ###### whining about something that isn't a problem. If you can't hit a jumping marine you're just a ###### idiot who needs to look up or slow down if you can't handle going that fast. It has nothing to do with an "MO". And, if anything, BOTH sides need penalties for facerolling the space bar. Movement has no skill (walljumping is easy as ######, it doesn't count) right now. Unless you plan on making it take skill for both sides, shut the ###### up.
<!--quoteo(post=1930336:date=Apr 26 2012, 06:42 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, lets nerf marines more. Whats next, they can't move without their bullets spraying behind their head because of accuracy degradation? Stop ###### whining about something that isn't a problem. If you can't hit a jumping marine you're just a ###### idiot who needs to look up or slow down if you can't handle going that fast. It has nothing to do with an "MO". And, if anything, BOTH sides need penalties for facerolling the space bar. Movement has no skill (walljumping is easy as ######, it doesn't count) right now. Unless you plan on making it take skill for both sides, shut the ###### up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm i thought this was a beta test and the forums were the appropriate place to discuss game mechanics, pro or con? I'm not sure what I did, other then express my opinion about the OP's topic, to deserve such hostility?
If you have a different opinion on the matter, expressing it in a much more mature fashion would seem appropriate and probably garner a much better response from the masses.
<!--quoteo(post=1930348:date=Apr 27 2012, 06:01 AM:name=fr33py)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr33py @ Apr 27 2012, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmmm i thought this was a beta test and the forums were the appropriate place to discuss game mechanics, pro or con?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is opinion and thats fine. And then there is fact. Subjective. Objective. Your opinion literally doesn't match reality. Bhopping marines? I mean this with all respect, but what game are you playing?
The reason I responded like that is because the hypocrisy and blatantly flawed logic is so apparent it baffles me. There has never once been a problem with marine jumping. It is my personal opinion that both sides need stronger penalties for performing bad movement, but right now neither side has that penalty thus making it balanced, but not where it needs to be. If you can't hit something moving slower than you then you have bad aim. You could actually just synchronize your jumps with marines jumping, what an astounding notion that you could actually do the same thing they're doing and make it harder for them to hit you - no you already do that.
well if UWE care about atmosphere / immersion this is certainly not a good thing. trained soldiers jumping around like little girls in the middle of the fight why would they do that? ns1 double jump was a different thing, it was ridiculous but at least skill based i'd change it for something like a little dash a dodge or something like that but nobody would like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1930351:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:06 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is opinion and thats fine. And then there is fact. Subjective. Objective. Your opinion literally doesn't match reality. Bhopping marines? I mean this with all respect, but what game are you playing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an expression, bhopping, jumping, bouncing. Its all the same. Marines jump. Some marines jump quite a bit. Some marines jump all the time when a skulk is near by and are able to maintain amazing accuracy. I'm against this.
<!--quoteo(post=1930352:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 26 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason I responded like that is because the hypocrisy and blatantly flawed logic is so apparent it baffles me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please explain the hypocrisy and flawed logic?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has never once been a problem with marine jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. My opinion is on the opposite side of the fence
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my personal opinion that both sides need stronger penalties for performing bad movement, but right now neither side has that penalty thus making it balanced, but not where it needs to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again your entitlement. However, this is where my opinion differs from yours. Marines have an advantage on skulks at a distance by virtue of firing a rifle. It doesn't take much to kill me. As a skulk I should have an advantage on you if I find a way to reduce that distance to melee range, whether that be sneaking up behind, ambushing or jumping from wall to wall until I am in melee range.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't hit something moving slower than you then you have bad aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may be true but is completely irrelevant to the case in point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could actually just synchronize your jumps with marines jumping, what an astounding notion that you could actually do the same thing they're doing and make it harder for them to hit you - no you already do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea i forgot about all that time you have to "synchronize your jumps with marines". You make it sound so easy. You must be a pro?
A prime example, as a skulk I can run up on a marine from behind, get the first two bites off (hearing the chomping sound effect of the bites landing on the marine) and the marine can jump whip around 180 degrees midair and put enough bullets in me before landing to kill me. Mind you the jump causes my third bite to miss which is fine and could lead to a little dance off where hopefully my skill level as a skulk outdoes the skill level of the dancing firing marine. Its not usually the case because the marine takes no penalty for 180 degree spin flips while firing.
That's the kind of thing I'm concerned about. I think its ridiculous in THIS game. This game seems to have a different identity then the faster twitch FPS games like Quake, Doom, Unreal, etc where the jumping around firing like a mad man with accuracy is more appropriate.
This game seems to be more about tactics and strategy where marines should be working as a team to secure the map against aliens while aliens have a more autonomous identity where they can work alone but are more effective in groups.
<!--quoteo(post=1930367:date=Apr 26 2012, 01:27 PM:name=fr33py)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr33py @ Apr 26 2012, 01:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could actually just synchronize your jumps with marines jumping, what an astounding notion that you could actually do the same thing they're doing and make it harder for them to hit you - no you already do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Am I the only one who bites knees and not ankles? I mean when they jump my view is aligned just right where I can still hit them even if I am on the ground. Bouncing marines aren't the problem, it's the ones who know a thing or two about circle strafing that are worrisome.
Short answer: Look up around 15 degrees and this won't be a problem. I know the floor is interesting and all but show the ceiling some love now and again.
<!--quoteo(post=1930355:date=Apr 27 2012, 06:11 AM:name=fr33py)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr33py @ Apr 27 2012, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's an expression, bhopping, jumping, bouncing. Its all the same. Marines jump. Some marines jump quite a bit. Some marines jump all the time when a skulk is near by and are able to maintain amazing accuracy. I'm against this.
Is that simple enough for you?
I'm playing the game called Natural Selection 2.
What game are you playing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh my friend, they clearly mean vastly different things. If you want to have a discussion on a forum, then don't mix your terms in order to pass your arguement over as seeming to be valid. It makes discussing very hard. Marines can hardly bhop, let alone jump over railings. You got outplayed. Are you against being outplayed? Have you learnt how to use skulk movement to remotely counter that marine 'bhopping'?
There are two sides to this marine jumping issue and i see the same pattern over and over. On one side there are the people against it who (most of them) continually provide hyperbole anecdotal evidence and subjective arguements that include it being 'annoying', 'not logical', and even 'bhop'. On the other side there are people who actually play the game, look at the empirical mechanics of marine jump and realise that its hardly useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1930376:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:39 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 07:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh my friend, they clearly mean vastly different things. If you want to have a discussion on a forum, then don't mix your terms in order to pass your arguement over as seeming to be valid. It makes discussing very hard. Marines can hardly bhop, let alone jump over railings. You got outplayed. Are you against being outplayed? Have you learnt how to use skulk movement to remotely counter that marine 'bhopping'?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you want to play games about terminology I'll keep it simple for you: Marine Jumping.
How about you take the discussion for what its worth and maybe use a little common sense, or thought process to really understand what someone is talking about? I did make myself clear in my original explanation of what I felt was wrong. You decided to join the discussion and pick a fight about something irrelevant. Either add to the discussion sensibly or don't add anything at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two sides to this marine jumping issue and i see the same pattern over and over. On one side there are the people against it who (most of them) continually provide hyperbole anecdotal evidence and subjective arguements that include it being 'annoying', 'not logical', and even 'bhop'. On the other side there are people who actually play the game, look at the empirical mechanics of marine jump and realise that its hardly useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except I did provide a very valid argument. I didn't complain about marine jumping just to complain and be one of the "cool kids". I spoke up in this thread about the issue the OP talked about. This was something that has bothered me about the game play for quite some time. It is from my personal experience PLAYING THE GAME.
Marines jump and circle strafe skulks with regular abandon. It reduces the advantage the skulks have against marines while in melee range with no penalty to the marine. Its more evident with marine players who have clearly played many man hours of other FPS games.
A little advice, stop picking forum fights. Simply add to the discussion whether it be for or against the discussion at hand. Add your opinion or fact based information. Keep your aggressive attacking comments to yourself.
The problems that creates the jump spam is more hit-box, collisions related and bad performances in general. The slow down on jump is actually a bit annoying in some situations where you want to chain a few jumps to get somewhere.
The main design goal is that a skulk should always be faster and more agile than a marine, but the marine should be able to do as much as possible. It means that if a marine do some crazy moves a good skulk should be able to follow him and land each bite. <b>Do the marine movement as free and potent as possible and do the skulk just better.</b>
For example, I'd like to have some basic wall jumping (not to get speed, just to reach some high place or so), no reason not to, except performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1930392:date=Apr 27 2012, 07:17 AM:name=fr33py)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fr33py @ Apr 27 2012, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok i can't let this one go. I tried to be civil.
I'm not trying to prove my epeen or pick random fights wtf. I thought we were discussing? You called it bhop as part of your 'valid arguement', its not bhop. This is absolutely relevant no? Would you like me to show you what bhop is? This is hardly a case of playing terminology. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cNMOtvwU2JM"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cNMOtvwU2JM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
You meant 'marine jumping'. Fine, i understand. Then what does circle strafe have to do with it? Sounds like you're just knee jerking to dying to better players in all honesty and arguing for the bar to be brought down to your level instead of the other way around. (Lets be honest the bar isn't very high currently anyway).
Sure you can stereotype me as a bully if you want (what?) but its starting to show that you can't handle counter arguements. This is part of discussing if you arn't already aware of it. We make arguements, we provide evidence, but most importantly we make counter arguements. This isn't show and tell. I am adding to this discussion by disproving you, simple as that. This is nothing personal. Base your arguements on fact or not at all. Marine movement is something close to my heart and i hate seeing people misrepresent it.
I've also already stated not just my opinion but why marine jumping is absolutely tame and backed it this very thread. If you can't provide reasonable counter arguements why i'm wrong then save us the trouble of having to read the same subjective arguements. I don't see why its so hard to simply go in game and try to jump as a marine yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1930375:date=Apr 26 2012, 12:38 PM:name=Industry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Industry @ Apr 26 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only one who bites knees and not ankles? I mean when they jump my view is aligned just right where I can still hit them even if I am on the ground. Bouncing marines aren't the problem, it's the ones who know a thing or two about circle strafing that are worrisome.
Short answer: Look up around 15 degrees and this won't be a problem. I know the floor is interesting and all but show the ceiling some love now and again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess in this thread you are a rare breed of skulk
<!--quoteo(post=1930415:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok i can't let this one go. I tried to be civil.
I'm not trying to prove my epeen or pick random fights wtf. I thought we were discussing? You called it bhop as part of your 'valid arguement', its not bhop. This is absolutely relevant no? Would you like me to show you what bhop is? This is hardly a case of playing terminology.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you're are right on one thing, marines are not flying through the map using a traditional bhop like old school quake. Congratulations you found the hole in my argument. Do you feel better now? It's you being technical and calling out a point that is IRRELEVANT to the argument. I corrected the terminology when you threw a fit and pissed and moaned about it already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You meant 'marine jumping'. Fine, i understand. Then what does circle strafe have to do with it? Sounds like you're just knee jerking to dying to better players in all honesty and arguing for the bar to be brought down to your level instead of the other way around. (Lets be honest the bar isn't very high currently anyway).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not knee jerking at all. Again this is more your nit picking, technical bull######, attempting to flame more into the argument. You are making no attempt to discuss or provide a counter argument to what I raised as the problem and a solution.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure you can stereotype me as a bully if you want (what?) but its starting to show that you can't handle counter arguements. This is part of discussing if you arn't already aware of it. We make arguements, we provide evidence, but most importantly we make counter arguements. This isn't show and tell. I am adding to this discussion by disproving you, simple as that. This is nothing personal. Base your arguements on fact or not at all. Marine movement is something close to my heart and i hate seeing people misrepresent it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need to stereotype you, You are doing a fine job of representing a complete ###### bag all on your own. The only thing you have done is nit pick and attack my choice of words. You have yet to disprove anything. You have yet to make any valid arguments or address the ONLY thing I suggested needed improvement. You have failed to display any sense of reading comprehension. I have yet to make any statements that any changes need to be made to marine movement. The only changes I have suggested were to be made to marine accuracy when making consecutive jumps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've also already stated not just my opinion but why marine jumping is absolutely tame and backed it this very thread. If you can't provide reasonable counter arguements why i'm wrong then save us the trouble of having to read the same subjective arguements. I don't see why its so hard to simply go in game and try to jump as a marine yourself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my response above as well as the initial post I made. You might learn that reading is fundamental in a forum when attempting to argue your point. I'm done arguing with your ###### troll like responses. You and Champloo deserve to share a server together! Have at it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have put in over 300 hours in on NS2 so far. I'm not just talking about me as a Skulk attacking a marine which ok, is not fun at times with the jumping. Trying to bite at a Marines feet as he pogos around is not fun and definitely makes it harder to land hits and all the while the Marine is pouring gunfire into you. As a Marine its way too easy to avoid being bitten as you can jump straight over the top of them, turn 180 degrees mid air and shoot as they go past. 1 v 1, marine against Skulk at Distance, the Marine should have an advantage with his ranged weapon. Close up, and especially if the Skulk ambushes as they should then the Skulk <b>should</b> have the advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keyword: Should. And yes, you're right the skulk <i>should</i> do very well... but that's not how NS2 really functions.. there's should be very little "1v1" because you should be trying to team up on people as best you can.... power comes in numbers very easily in this game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But with the spam jumping that advantage is cancelled out. Using the space bar fast will like you said will have the jump go to nothing quickly. But try leaving a very short pause between jumps and its possible to jump around for as long as you want.
I really don't see what is skill based about banging the space bar and jumping around. Anyone can do that with zero practise. Getting shots on target consistently and using team work through playing for hours is skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're saying that jumping constantly degrades speed.. but waiting for a small time allows them to jump again perfectly, so if you know that why can't you account for it? Surely someone that has this knowledge would be able to hit their opponent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another annoying tactic is the way a jumping marine can block and stop a Lerk as it tries to fly overhead. Come across a few Marines in a tight corridor with little headroom and trying to fly overhead, the spam jumping starts attempting to catch the Lerk with the Marines head and causing it to stop dead for an easy cheap kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk can smokescreen and zigzag like a pro...... there's no need to go one way with him, simply go whatever way you want..... Someone blocking your way? Fly up, pour gas on him, and then zigzag some other direction to infestation to heal up. Stop whining that someone blocked you.. it's a war game... try to outsmart your opponent a little bit jeez.
Actually it sounds to me like you're not moving the mouse around enough... you envy people that can do perfect 180s but some of these people have probably been playing FPS since Doom 1.. (LAN, too).
It's sad that marine players have to try so hard to fight the basic alien lifeform, while alien players barely have to try at all. Possibly because they require next to no aim, and their movement skill has been drastically oversimplified from what it was in NS1. But no, that can't be true because the walljump is difficult to perform, right?
it's sad how people keep trying to simplify games and lower the skill ceiling. There are enough modern "dumbed down" games on the market already, do we really have to do that with ns2 too?
Marines constantly jumping around and firing with perfect accuracy doesn't make sense in a couple ways. Ideally something would be done to discourage it but not disable it entirely. This does not mean that marines have to get "nerfed". ANOTHER CHANGE CAN BE MADE TO IMPROVE MARINES. Like, removing jump spamming but getting a little extra armor. I'm not saying that's the solution, but try to look at the mechanic all on it's own aside from "balance" because the game can always be rebalanced by tweaking other things.
As I argued above the only question that matter is "can a good skulk land each bite on a marine that do crazy moves ?". Go on a server with your friends and test. If so there is no problem. If the marine can <i>consistently</i> escape bite, then we have a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1930662:date=Apr 27 2012, 02:53 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 27 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I argued above the only question that matter is "can a good skulk land each bite on a marine that do crazy moves ?". Go on a server with your friends and test. If so there is no problem. If the marine can <i>consistently</i> escape bite, then we have a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's the only question that matters. If you were to use the same thoughts about skulks moving at 100mph for example, you could say "Well, as long as pro players can kill them then it's no problem" but the game would be unbalanced at lower skill levels, and even just as a skulk vs marine of equal skill, if the skulk moving at 100mph is very easy to use then it is unbalanced, because the counter to it is much more difficult.
Same thing with jumping around as a marine. If spamming the space bar makes you much more difficult to hit while being easy to perform then it unbalances skulk vs marine play if hitting the marine is very difficult for the skulk.
IDK how the game would play if marines couldn't shoot in mid air though. At the moment it might make skulks OP and you might need to add in another way for marines to out manoeuvre them at close range (perhaps spamming jump is the best we'll get). You would really need to playtest it for a while to see. Also as with most things in ns2, when the performance improves it could change things dramatically.
<!--quoteo(post=1930666:date=Apr 27 2012, 10:08 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 27 2012, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same thing with jumping around as a marine. If spamming the space bar makes you much more difficult to hit while being easy to perform then it unbalances skulk vs marine play if hitting the marine is very difficult for the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Additionally, if doing x is objectively better than doing y and x has no penalties, why even bother with y? Just let the game do x for my be default so I don't have to mindlessly press more keys for no reason. The only "skill ceiling" modifier jumping has is "does this player know to jump or not?"... it's not actually skill-based. Maybe you could be a little better at jumping than someone else, but I don't think it'd be very noticeable. Maybe someday we'll even get to people writing scripts that automatically jump for them when they're firing like TF2 Soldiers (after one of the dumbest patches ever that reduced damage if you took self-damage while jumping).
Comments
Crouch+jump has been somewhat fixed too.. it's way better than it had been :P
Also, the idea of forcing a marine not to be able to jump just limits him too much (if he gets stuck in a small ditch he'll be unable to get out, can't crawl into certain vents after skulks, cant even jump over a simple railing etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify. I never said I wanted the ability to jump taken out. Marines need to jump on occasions to clear obstacles etc. Its the bouncing up and down repeatedly I don't like.
@ Tweadle
No offence taken. I just want to be able to make my point without any negativity and have no problem with counter arguments at all. I think its great how passionate we are about the game. The NS community has always been better than most and I welcome debate on this and other topics. Tbh I don't expect UW will change anything for little old me ;) They have a vision for the game and often game devs take criticism to heart and end up changing things for the worse so they should stick to their plan.
I am sure I read a statement by either Cory or Charlie ages ago stating they did not like the jumping either but maybe the way it is now is as far as it will go and they are happy with it. And it was a fair while ago and its not as bad as it used to be. And that is fair enough, its their game and I will play whatever they do, and I trust them to deliver a great game at retail
On a lighter note, just had a few matches on line as I am off work and so far I like it.
Sal
EDIT: Perhaps one might consider nerfing jump immediately after getting hit in melee (or making one loose most of his momentum like he did in NS1). That way you would have plenty of leg room to avoid first contact but after that your in for it.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed OP
Except that they dont have guns. The bigger issues with skulks is the strange collision and hit detection.
Marines bunny hopping around and maintaining perfect accuracy is quite annoying and seems out of place for this game.
Accuracy should be next to nothing when marines make consecutive jumps.
Those people trying to flip the argument back on skulks jumping around being the problem doesn't make any sense logically as that's their MO. Its well within the theme of this alien wall walking dog to jump around avoiding fire to get within melee range to munch down on some marine flesh. However, its not within the theme for a marine to jump around like a bunny and still be able to shoot with perfect accuracy. There should be a trade off, jump around and avoid bites but be very inaccurate and hope your companions bail you out, or stay grounded and maintain good accuracy and hope the skulk misses enough times that your accurate lmg finishes him off in time.
If we are simply talking 1v1 then marines have the advantage at a distance and skulks close up, this balances out later with the addition of shotguns to make marines more viable up close and the skulks leap ability providing them with the means to reduce the distance between themselves and marines.
Marines bunny hopping around and maintaining perfect accuracy is quite annoying and seems out of place for this game.
Accuracy should be next to nothing when marines make consecutive jumps.
Those people trying to flip the argument back on skulks jumping around being the problem doesn't make any sense logically as that's their MO. Its well within the theme of this alien wall walking dog to jump around avoiding fire to get within melee range to munch down on some marine flesh. However, its not within the theme for a marine to jump around like a bunny and still be able to shoot with perfect accuracy. There should be a trade off, jump around and avoid bites but be very inaccurate and hope your companions bail you out, or stay grounded and maintain good accuracy and hope the skulk misses enough times that your accurate lmg finishes him off in time.
If we are simply talking 1v1 then marines have the advantage at a distance and skulks close up, this balances out later with the addition of shotguns to make marines more viable up close and the skulks leap ability providing them with the means to reduce the distance between themselves and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, lets nerf marines more. Whats next, they can't move without their bullets spraying behind their head because of accuracy degradation? Stop ###### whining about something that isn't a problem. If you can't hit a jumping marine you're just a ###### idiot who needs to look up or slow down if you can't handle going that fast. It has nothing to do with an "MO". And, if anything, BOTH sides need penalties for facerolling the space bar. Movement has no skill (walljumping is easy as ######, it doesn't count) right now. Unless you plan on making it take skill for both sides, shut the ###### up.
Hmmm i thought this was a beta test and the forums were the appropriate place to discuss game mechanics, pro or con? I'm not sure what I did, other then express my opinion about the OP's topic, to deserve such hostility?
If you have a different opinion on the matter, expressing it in a much more mature fashion would seem appropriate and probably garner a much better response from the masses.
There is opinion and thats fine. And then there is fact. Subjective. Objective. Your opinion literally doesn't match reality. Bhopping marines? I mean this with all respect, but what game are you playing?
ns1 double jump was a different thing, it was ridiculous but at least skill based
i'd change it for something like a little dash a dodge or something like that but nobody would like it.
It's an expression, bhopping, jumping, bouncing. Its all the same. Marines jump. Some marines jump quite a bit. Some marines jump all the time when a skulk is near by and are able to maintain amazing accuracy. I'm against this.
Is that simple enough for you?
I'm playing the game called Natural Selection 2.
What game are you playing?
Please explain the hypocrisy and flawed logic?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There has never once been a problem with marine jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. My opinion is on the opposite side of the fence
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is my personal opinion that both sides need stronger penalties for performing bad movement, but right now neither side has that penalty thus making it balanced, but not where it needs to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again your entitlement. However, this is where my opinion differs from yours. Marines have an advantage on skulks at a distance by virtue of firing a rifle. It doesn't take much to kill me. As a skulk I should have an advantage on you if I find a way to reduce that distance to melee range, whether that be sneaking up behind, ambushing or jumping from wall to wall until I am in melee range.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't hit something moving slower than you then you have bad aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may be true but is completely irrelevant to the case in point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could actually just synchronize your jumps with marines jumping, what an astounding notion that you could actually do the same thing they're doing and make it harder for them to hit you - no you already do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea i forgot about all that time you have to "synchronize your jumps with marines". You make it sound so easy. You must be a pro?
A prime example, as a skulk I can run up on a marine from behind, get the first two bites off (hearing the chomping sound effect of the bites landing on the marine) and the marine can jump whip around 180 degrees midair and put enough bullets in me before landing to kill me. Mind you the jump causes my third bite to miss which is fine and could lead to a little dance off where hopefully my skill level as a skulk outdoes the skill level of the dancing firing marine. Its not usually the case because the marine takes no penalty for 180 degree spin flips while firing.
That's the kind of thing I'm concerned about. I think its ridiculous in THIS game. This game seems to have a different identity then the faster twitch FPS games like Quake, Doom, Unreal, etc where the jumping around firing like a mad man with accuracy is more appropriate.
This game seems to be more about tactics and strategy where marines should be working as a team to secure the map against aliens while aliens have a more autonomous identity where they can work alone but are more effective in groups.
Am I the only one who bites knees and not ankles? I mean when they jump my view is aligned just right where I can still hit them even if I am on the ground. Bouncing marines aren't the problem, it's the ones who know a thing or two about circle strafing that are worrisome.
Short answer: Look up around 15 degrees and this won't be a problem. I know the floor is interesting and all but show the ceiling some love now and again.
Is that simple enough for you?
I'm playing the game called Natural Selection 2.
What game are you playing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my friend, they clearly mean vastly different things. If you want to have a discussion on a forum, then don't mix your terms in order to pass your arguement over as seeming to be valid. It makes discussing very hard. Marines can hardly bhop, let alone jump over railings. You got outplayed. Are you against being outplayed? Have you learnt how to use skulk movement to remotely counter that marine 'bhopping'?
There are two sides to this marine jumping issue and i see the same pattern over and over. On one side there are the people against it who (most of them) continually provide hyperbole anecdotal evidence and subjective arguements that include it being 'annoying', 'not logical', and even 'bhop'. On the other side there are people who actually play the game, look at the empirical mechanics of marine jump and realise that its hardly useful.
Since you want to play games about terminology I'll keep it simple for you: Marine Jumping.
How about you take the discussion for what its worth and maybe use a little common sense, or thought process to really understand what someone is talking about? I did make myself clear in my original explanation of what I felt was wrong. You decided to join the discussion and pick a fight about something irrelevant. Either add to the discussion sensibly or don't add anything at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two sides to this marine jumping issue and i see the same pattern over and over. On one side there are the people against it who (most of them) continually provide hyperbole anecdotal evidence and subjective arguements that include it being 'annoying', 'not logical', and even 'bhop'. On the other side there are people who actually play the game, look at the empirical mechanics of marine jump and realise that its hardly useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except I did provide a very valid argument. I didn't complain about marine jumping just to complain and be one of the "cool kids". I spoke up in this thread about the issue the OP talked about. This was something that has bothered me about the game play for quite some time. It is from my personal experience PLAYING THE GAME.
Marines jump and circle strafe skulks with regular abandon. It reduces the advantage the skulks have against marines while in melee range with no penalty to the marine. Its more evident with marine players who have clearly played many man hours of other FPS games.
A little advice, stop picking forum fights. Simply add to the discussion whether it be for or against the discussion at hand. Add your opinion or fact based information. Keep your aggressive attacking comments to yourself.
The problems that creates the jump spam is more hit-box, collisions related and bad performances in general. The slow down on jump is actually a bit annoying in some situations where you want to chain a few jumps to get somewhere.
The main design goal is that a skulk should always be faster and more agile than a marine, but the marine should be able to do as much as possible. It means that if a marine do some crazy moves a good skulk should be able to follow him and land each bite. <b>Do the marine movement as free and potent as possible and do the skulk just better.</b>
For example, I'd like to have some basic wall jumping (not to get speed, just to reach some high place or so), no reason not to, except performance.
Ok i can't let this one go. I tried to be civil.
I'm not trying to prove my epeen or pick random fights wtf. I thought we were discussing? You called it bhop as part of your 'valid arguement', its not bhop. This is absolutely relevant no? Would you like me to show you what bhop is? This is hardly a case of playing terminology.
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You meant 'marine jumping'. Fine, i understand. Then what does circle strafe have to do with it? Sounds like you're just knee jerking to dying to better players in all honesty and arguing for the bar to be brought down to your level instead of the other way around. (Lets be honest the bar isn't very high currently anyway).
Sure you can stereotype me as a bully if you want (what?) but its starting to show that you can't handle counter arguements. This is part of discussing if you arn't already aware of it. We make arguements, we provide evidence, but most importantly we make counter arguements. This isn't show and tell. I am adding to this discussion by disproving you, simple as that. This is nothing personal. Base your arguements on fact or not at all. Marine movement is something close to my heart and i hate seeing people misrepresent it.
I've also already stated not just my opinion but why marine jumping is absolutely tame and backed it this very thread. If you can't provide reasonable counter arguements why i'm wrong then save us the trouble of having to read the same subjective arguements. I don't see why its so hard to simply go in game and try to jump as a marine yourself.
Short answer: Look up around 15 degrees and this won't be a problem. I know the floor is interesting and all but show the ceiling some love now and again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess in this thread you are a rare breed of skulk
I'm not trying to prove my epeen or pick random fights wtf. I thought we were discussing? You called it bhop as part of your 'valid arguement', its not bhop. This is absolutely relevant no? Would you like me to show you what bhop is? This is hardly a case of playing terminology.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you're are right on one thing, marines are not flying through the map using a traditional bhop like old school quake. Congratulations you found the hole in my argument. Do you feel better now? It's you being technical and calling out a point that is IRRELEVANT to the argument. I corrected the terminology when you threw a fit and pissed and moaned about it already.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You meant 'marine jumping'. Fine, i understand. Then what does circle strafe have to do with it? Sounds like you're just knee jerking to dying to better players in all honesty and arguing for the bar to be brought down to your level instead of the other way around. (Lets be honest the bar isn't very high currently anyway).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not knee jerking at all. Again this is more your nit picking, technical bull######, attempting to flame more into the argument. You are making no attempt to discuss or provide a counter argument to what I raised as the problem and a solution.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure you can stereotype me as a bully if you want (what?) but its starting to show that you can't handle counter arguements. This is part of discussing if you arn't already aware of it. We make arguements, we provide evidence, but most importantly we make counter arguements. This isn't show and tell. I am adding to this discussion by disproving you, simple as that. This is nothing personal. Base your arguements on fact or not at all. Marine movement is something close to my heart and i hate seeing people misrepresent it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need to stereotype you, You are doing a fine job of representing a complete ###### bag all on your own. The only thing you have done is nit pick and attack my choice of words. You have yet to disprove anything. You have yet to make any valid arguments or address the ONLY thing I suggested needed improvement. You have failed to display any sense of reading comprehension. I have yet to make any statements that any changes need to be made to marine movement. The only changes I have suggested were to be made to marine accuracy when making consecutive jumps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've also already stated not just my opinion but why marine jumping is absolutely tame and backed it this very thread. If you can't provide reasonable counter arguements why i'm wrong then save us the trouble of having to read the same subjective arguements. I don't see why its so hard to simply go in game and try to jump as a marine yourself<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See my response above as well as the initial post I made. You might learn that reading is fundamental in a forum when attempting to argue your point. I'm done arguing with your ###### troll like responses. You and Champloo deserve to share a server together! Have at it.
Keyword: Should. And yes, you're right the skulk <i>should</i> do very well... but that's not how NS2 really functions.. there's should be very little "1v1" because you should be trying to team up on people as best you can.... power comes in numbers very easily in this game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But with the spam jumping that advantage is cancelled out. Using the space bar fast will like you said will have the jump go to nothing quickly. But try leaving a very short pause between jumps and its possible to jump around for as long as you want.
I really don't see what is skill based about banging the space bar and jumping around. Anyone can do that with zero practise. Getting shots on target consistently and using team work through playing for hours is skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're saying that jumping constantly degrades speed.. but waiting for a small time allows them to jump again perfectly, so if you know that why can't you account for it? Surely someone that has this knowledge would be able to hit their opponent.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another annoying tactic is the way a jumping marine can block and stop a Lerk as it tries to fly overhead. Come across a few Marines in a tight corridor with little headroom and trying to fly overhead, the spam jumping starts attempting to catch the Lerk with the Marines head and causing it to stop dead for an easy cheap kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk can smokescreen and zigzag like a pro...... there's no need to go one way with him, simply go whatever way you want..... Someone blocking your way? Fly up, pour gas on him, and then zigzag some other direction to infestation to heal up. Stop whining that someone blocked you.. it's a war game... try to outsmart your opponent a little bit jeez.
Actually it sounds to me like you're not moving the mouse around enough... you envy people that can do perfect 180s but some of these people have probably been playing FPS since Doom 1.. (LAN, too).
Possibly because they require next to no aim, and their movement skill has been drastically oversimplified from what it was in NS1. But no, that can't be true because the walljump is difficult to perform, right?
I don't think that's the only question that matters. If you were to use the same thoughts about skulks moving at 100mph for example, you could say "Well, as long as pro players can kill them then it's no problem" but the game would be unbalanced at lower skill levels, and even just as a skulk vs marine of equal skill, if the skulk moving at 100mph is very easy to use then it is unbalanced, because the counter to it is much more difficult.
Same thing with jumping around as a marine. If spamming the space bar makes you much more difficult to hit while being easy to perform then it unbalances skulk vs marine play if hitting the marine is very difficult for the skulk.
IDK how the game would play if marines couldn't shoot in mid air though. At the moment it might make skulks OP and you might need to add in another way for marines to out manoeuvre them at close range (perhaps spamming jump is the best we'll get). You would really need to playtest it for a while to see. Also as with most things in ns2, when the performance improves it could change things dramatically.
Additionally, if doing x is objectively better than doing y and x has no penalties, why even bother with y? Just let the game do x for my be default so I don't have to mindlessly press more keys for no reason. The only "skill ceiling" modifier jumping has is "does this player know to jump or not?"... it's not actually skill-based. Maybe you could be a little better at jumping than someone else, but I don't think it'd be very noticeable. Maybe someday we'll even get to people writing scripts that automatically jump for them when they're firing like TF2 Soldiers (after one of the dumbest patches ever that reduced damage if you took self-damage while jumping).