<!--quoteo(post=1934991:date=May 9 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ May 9 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can see problems, you can point them out, but give some thoughts on what could be improved, suggest new values, all that jazz, rather than being a pure rager :).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only people raging here are the people calling me a rager or a butthurt COD kiddie or whatever.
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.
<!--quoteo(post=1934998:date=May 9 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 9 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only people raging here are the people calling me a rager or a butthurt COD kiddie or whatever.
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not a game programmer either, I am also an end customer, I paid for the game and was invited to become a playtester based on streaming, and knowledge of the game. Not all playtesters are super programmers Master, a lot of us are just your daily users, just with that special 'playtester' icon, And by raging, look how you act in this thread, I consider that raging. Sorry if you are moved differently by that, but yea, it sort of is annoying and I am going to point it out :)
<!--quoteo(post=1934998:date=May 10 2012, 12:54 AM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 10 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only people raging here are the people calling me a rager or a butthurt COD kiddie or whatever.
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe what Lut is saying is that instead of being all like, "Onos is broke! Halp Marines!" try providing specific and detailed problems and possible solutions. Anecdotal evidence is typically frowned upon.
<!--quoteo(post=1935000:date=May 9 2012, 08:00 PM:name=Luitjens)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luitjens @ May 9 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not a game programmer either, I am also an end customer, I paid for the game and was invited to become a playtester based on streaming, and knowledge of the game. Not all playtesters are super programmers Master, a lot of us are just your daily users, just with that special 'playtester' icon, And by raging, look how you act in this thread, I consider that raging. Sorry if you are moved differently by that, but yea, it sort of is annoying and I am going to point it out :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did I act in this thread? I posted a problem and got blasted for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1934966:date=May 9 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 9 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've had summit locked down with 2 IPs, 1 advanced armory, 1 arms lab, 1 turret factory, 2 observatories maximum turrets, all the weapons, phase gates in BOTH Data Core and Flight Control. In other words, I had 4 IPs, 2 AAs, 2 arms labs, 4 observatories etc. Aliens had 3 resource towers the whole map. Thus, I had two FULL bases in both hives, while aliens had sub access. THis means we had 6 resource towers, they had 3 (which we killed and they rebuilt over and over).
3 onos took out flight control even after beaconing. We killed all of them when they attacked data core, and we rebuilt flight control. Then 3 more onos appeared and ended the game the same way -- hit power node.
The BEST PART was that I put power packs on the observatories and IPs in data core and it didn't help because onos cannot be killed with stomp.
I'm not saying Onos is ridiculous because we lost a game like that, but I'm saying its ridiculous because we lost a game like that.
Especially since the alien team said afterwards that "we didn't even plan to rush at the same time."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos are potential momentum changers for the aliens... you should expect them to take the field around the ten minute mark, and thus have a plan for it.
Seems to me your complaint is that you committed to the "slow res stragulation" tactic and at that point you expect the game to be pretty much won and you can take your time and slowly close in for the kill.
As far as i can tell there are 3 phases to the game, Early game, Mid Game and End Game.
Early Game is all about getting those resource points and possibly trying some early zergs. The goal for each team here will be to either win the game through a zerg or to reach the Mid Game before the other team.
Mid Game seems more about momentum than anything. The goal for each team here is to either win the game through a zerg or to reach the End Game before the other team.
The End Game is about mass destruction... things can, will and should go down fast. The goal here is for each team to massacre the other team. Teams that reach here first have VERY distinct advantage (for a limited time) to close out the match quickly.
From what I can tell of your description, your team failed to do so... and then the Aliens reached their "end game" and won the match through better gameplay. Put more simply, you got beat. Sorry if that sounds snotty, i'm not intending it to be so...
However... I will agree that the ONOS stomp ability is overpowered currently, I'd like to see them not be able to stomp for like 3-4 seconds (a 1-2 second delay after Marines recover) after the previous stomp... I believe that would allow marines to have a better chance to escape the big beastie.
Yes, 3 onos working together will take down a powernode, but good teamwork can allow a marine team to recover from that. On the other side of things though, 5 Jetpack Marines with just LMGs working together, will take down a hive, which is much harder for aliens to defend against.
Writing all this has given me an interesting insight - Marines have a much harder time switching from Mid game to End game, psychologically, than aliens do, mainly due to the lack of really viceral visual markers. In essence, going from Skulk to Onos is a huge difference, whereas going from Armor 0 to Armor 3, Weapons 0 to Weapons 3 and getting a GL well its just not comparable in the "FEEL" category.
<!--quoteo(post=1934998:date=May 9 2012, 08:54 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 9 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing<b> free</b> feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos are extremely OP when it comes to power nodes. Every current game can be over in 10mins if the aliens survive that long and rush the marine power node. Now I am also going to post some screen shots below of a server with no turret limit, no whip limit, no arc limit. I wrapped around the map of mineshaft Whips with crags. Upgraded everysingle one. I also spend over 1,000 Tres on Arcs, not to mention the turret spam in Operations and Drill Repair(So many building the game won't let you build anymore) that can kill an Onos in 3 seconds.
Needless to say if you count how many arcs are in the screen shots you will not be able to count them since they keep adding in a single line(they should stack on top of each other). Marines win this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1935008:date=May 9 2012, 08:27 PM:name=Sagan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sagan @ May 9 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(lots of stuff)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to respond to this first.
Steam says I've played this game for 472 hours. Most of that has been commanding.
I have commanded *literally* hundreds, probably a thousand games.
My "one" anecdote sums up a LOT of games.
Even with this onos issue, we STILL win the majority of marine games I command.
But there are way too many insane people attacking me for posting a concern on a forum intended for that purpose. So I'm not posting on this site anymore.
So you're saying you win the majority of games as Marine, and yet you're complaining about arguably the only comeback maneuver Aliens could possibly use considering how nerfed the rest of their lifeforms are.
Calling it a comeback maneuver is absolutely incorrect. First off, it happens in games in which are currently going back and forth, both sides are maintaining an equal amount of RTs, more or less, and both sides are contending an area equally. Then, about ten to thirteen minutes in, a herd of Onos rush into the fray and completely wipe the marines. Second, I'll be putting up clips of a video where the game lasted <b>an hour long</b> while we barely maintained a moderate amount of RTs and our only saving graces were our Onos. This shows how completely overpowered they are in that they can stop a completely dominant marine team from wiping out otherwise dead aliens.
This isn't to say, it isn't a problem with the mechanic of evolving based on pres, but it is to say that the stomp plays a significant factor in a way of balancing the feature.
Both of these examples thus show that the Onos, whether from a balanced game, or a completely dominated one, that they unduly change the game. Marines have no answer to them, nor do marines have any sort of technology that uses pres that will influence the game so severely while only at the ten minute mark or so in a normal game. Of course we have to factor in the legendary <b>EXOOOOOOO</b> which will, of course, change things, but ultimately the issue is with the Onos, and I don't think marines are going to be able to contest an Onos just because they have exosuits; alas we won't know till it is released, but I hold a strong skepticism that one element is going to fix such a massive problem in the game as so many others claim.
Wouldn't an 'easy' solution be to have the powernode 'upgrade' itself over time so it gets more armour/health the longer it's in marine control?
Sort of like how the Aliens structures 'mature' over time to become more resilient.
This way the high priority target will shift from the powernode which can effectively shut down a room full of structures to selectively picking off the structure.
It also gives a high risk high reward pay off. Do you spend 'x' amount of time chomping the powernode hoping marines don't come in time to save it or do you forgo the 'node and chomp individual structures from highest priority to least but leaving them active and potentially having marines respond quicker to the threat (Eg: Phase Gate).
This also means that by the time the first Onos pops its head out of an egg the marine start powernode and other 'nodes that have been in marine control for 'x' minutes are more resilient to alien attacks.
Then ofcourse you can balance how tough the 'nodes are meant to be with bilebomb, Onos, skulks, fades etc.
Edit: Also I am not a fan of introducing 'exceptions' to the rule. For example having building 'A' 'B' and 'C' but not 'D' 'E' or 'F' work without a powernode all in the name of game balance is confusing. The command console/chair should not work if the powernode is knocked out of commission.
<!--quoteo(post=1935018:date=May 9 2012, 10:33 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 9 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Funny. That sounds exactly like a quantity problem caused by lack of an Alien resource sink.
Amazing how many problems this one issue is causing ;3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually the problem is the Onos stomp itself. Onos IS an alien resource sink that is far too shallow for how much reward it gives, is the problem. If it wasn't so shallow, so to speak, it would be an effective resource sink.
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!
<!--quoteo(post=1935011:date=May 10 2012, 06:42 AM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 10 2012, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But there are way too many insane people attacking me for posting a concern on a forum intended for that purpose. So I'm not posting on this site anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One more goes the way of Grissi. You shall not be missed.
I still believe there is a fundamental balance ssue with several onos coming out +- 10 min into a game. Granted the 10 p.res will delay that several minutes, allowing marines some more time to compete, it's not going to fix the issue of several players going onos at the same time. (Which means that if several aliens are saving for onos, marines have to move FAST to end the game, which isn't always easy)
<!--quoteo(post=1935066:date=May 10 2012, 01:11 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 10 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speak for yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye, it was more of a way to be facetious. It is always sad when good players become so paranoid and deluded and these forums. But in such a state it really is better that they leave. They are only trying to be martyrs, which can never be respected.
Jetpacks are great against Onos, but Jetpacks suck on every map except mineshaft which is a notoriously bad map for marines so not much of a boost
Option B is you <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118377" target="_blank">setup a ninja phase gate that cannot be stomped</a>; both very risky and expensive if the location requires a powerpack + MAC/Jetpack to build it
Plan C requires level 3 armor, Welders, Shotguns, nearly full energy for nanoshield, a Forward Armory, and finally ARCs. . . Yes, you <u>need all that crap to have a fair fight against multiple Onos</u> otherwise they will just kill a few people and run
ARCs force them to stick around, but notice how you're still on borrowed time because nanoshield is part of the equation
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1934911:date=May 10 2012, 12:19 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 10 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty obvious that power nodes need reworking, not that the entire rest of the game has to be squished to fit into the setting they create
Alien buildings "work" when they're not connected to infestation (with the exception of unrooted whips), and I don't see anyone justifying the difference in <i><b>less than </b></i>20,000 words spread over 4 posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this. Powernodes have been an enormous headache since the start. Every "solution" offered just creates new problems.
How long is it going to take before the devs realize it's simply a broken mechanic? How long is it going to take them to realize that some neat lighting effects aren't worth ruining gameplay over? How long is it going to take them to realize the power grid system needs to be axed just like multiple commanders?
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes sense, but it doesn't really work like that because the alien economy in NS2 is broken and Onii are powerful enough that three is pretty much an absolute game ender in 6v6. You don't have to sacrifice much to rush three Onii up fast: Commander = fast onos, permgorge = fast onos, and one permskulk = fast onos. That still leaves you with one fast lerk and two fast fades, which is pretty much the "correct" amount of advanced lifeforms midgame anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, noble idea, but it doesn't translate in practice. Powernodes don't discourage turtling, they actually incentivize turtling. If you have a weak point; the first thing you want to do is obviously to reinforce that weak point. The complaints you see in this thread are from players who didn't reinforce the weak point and therefore lost to a cheap rush -- to which the only defence is turtling (block the powernode with structures and place turrets facing the powernode).
You've been trying to tweak the powernodes for two years now? As far as I can see, they're still just as much of a problem as they were two years ago. So, do you really still think this is something you can tweak your way out of?
<b>The power grid system in short:</b> Pro: Cool lighting effect when power goes down. Con: Crappy red emergency lighting that ruins map aesthetics. Con: Doesn't actually achieve the purpose they were created for (and personally I wonder if turtling was a problem that really needed solving in the first place, it was never a problem in the later versions of NS1, so what exactly has changed to make it a problem in NS2?). Con: Creates a myriad of new gameplay issues. Con: Adds meaningless complexity (complexity for the sake of complexity).
<!--quoteo(post=1935006:date=May 10 2012, 04:07 AM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ May 10 2012, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did I act in this thread? I posted a problem and got blasted for it.
I'm done with the forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't give in and leave. You are entitled to your opinion regardless whether people agree or not. I am seeing a trend towards nastiness on this forum which I will admit now has made me not post as much as I would like. The last thread I made descended into childish rage by some and although I have my opinions I refuse to lower myself to the attitudes of those who cannot accept the fact we all have different opinions. Its a shame as a good friend of mine plays NS2 now as I bought it for his birthday recently and he is actually scared to post any ideas or suggestions on here because of the reactions some posts get. Its a shame when a grown man cannot make his feelings known in a beta test of a computer game for fear of a minority who cannot accept the fact that others may not think like him.
Charlie, Hugh and UW are intelligent people and I do not think for a minute that the opinions of those that spout hate and abuse at every post will be taken notice of, or at least I hope not. The game is still a while from completion and there is a load of stuff to come and lets face it, even when 1.0 rolls out its still only the beginning and the game will still grow and change.
If you have an opinion or idea then don't be scared to post it, and lets have calm well thought out counter arguments. But do it in a adult way and lets build a community not divide it.
The Onos was the default reply anytime people tried to discuss that it was too easy to turtle and just build turrets. But the Onos is coming.
Stop turtling and we will stop coming in with Onos train. As Onos I can take down turrets, power, and Armory.
I usually play it when I hit that realization....wait a minute.... we control most of the map...we should be winning. Play Aliens more and you will understand...and play Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1935100:date=May 10 2012, 02:32 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 10 2012, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Con: Doesn't actually achieve the purpose they were created for (and personally I wonder if turtling was a problem that really needed solving in the first place, it was never a problem in the later versions of NS1, so what exactly has changed to make it a problem in NS2?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The turtling is still actually a huge issue on 32 player public games in NS1. Most horrible commanders can win games by turtling up one hive and then teching to maxed out end game and then slowly pushing out across the whole map.
However, I think the onos and alien commander should be more than enough design possibilities and tools to give aliens the way to break the turtle. The scalable res model alone should give aliens the ability to capitalize their ridiculous map control against turtling and push it home from there, the new and improved onos and alien commander spells could be just the icing on the cake. They are also still going to add 3rd hive abilities like xeno into the game, aren't those a potential solution?
In short: I do think turtling can become an issue in NS1 pub games. However, I absolutely don't believe power grid is necessary or purposeful way for fixing that, there are way better solutions - many of them already available in the game. If the grid is there to solve turtling, it's the biggest band aid solution in the whole game.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1935109:date=May 10 2012, 03:19 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 10 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The turtling is still actually a huge issue on 32 player public games in NS1. Most horrible commanders can win games by turtling up one hive and then teching to maxed out end game and then slowly pushing out across the whole map.
However, I think the onos and alien commander should be more than enough design possibilities and tools to give aliens the way to break the turtle. The scalable res model alone should give aliens the ability to capitalize their ridiculous map control against turtling and push it home from there, the new and improved onos and alien commander spells could be just the icing on the cake. They are also still going to add 3rd hive abilities like xeno into the game, aren't those a potential solution?
In short: I do think turtling can become an issue in NS1 pub games. However, I absolutely don't believe power grid is necessary or purposeful way for fixing that, there are way better solutions - many of them already available in the game. If the grid is there to solve turtling, it's the biggest band aid solution in the whole game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you want to dig that deeply into it; yes, I agree.
The reason why turtling became a problem on 32 player public games is in part because of the non-scaleability of the res model (should be fixed in NS2), the inherent advantage marines get in combat the more players there are (can't be fixed, inherent in melee vs. ranged combat model), and in part simply because public players don't know how to exploit weaknesses in the turtling strategy (can't be fixed).
Even if one conceded, as you say, that turtling is a problem that needs addressing, the power grid system is not the solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 9 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 9 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two comments from us on this one:
2.If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if you read my above post. I built enough turrets to kill an onos in 3 seconds. Marines win.
<!--quoteo(post=1935067:date=May 10 2012, 08:11 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 10 2012, 08:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granted the 10 p.res will delay that several minutes, allowing marines some more time to compete, <b>it's not going to fix the issue of several players going onos at the same time.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. The timings for lifeforms are fine <b>if</b> the quantity problem is fixed. Unfortunately with the Alien Commander in the game the quantity problem will never be fixed and thus it seems the timings will never be fixed either.
If/When the p.res nerf happens, maybe UWE should look at undoing some of the nerfs aimed at other Alien lifeforms that were attempts to fix the mass quantity problem of the week.
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 9 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 9 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Two comments from us on this one:
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you would define mid-game by a time range, whatever time it may be to the developers, but to me it's the time within five minutes after augment. That is when you first see the mass Onos attacks. By this time marines might have some advanced tech, but absolutely nothing to handle the Onos. There is no pre-Onos resource sink that aliens need to use. Fades and Lerks are just something that aliens can go, if they want to, but won't bring marines to their grinding halt like the Onos will, which often leads to the forgoing of the "mid-game" life forms. And, ideally, jetpacks would counter Onos, however, as stated previously the maps aren't really thought of with jetpacks in mind; there's often not enough room around or something to jetpack on top of to get to safety. Second, the Onos isn't a "key", it's a freaking siege ram that breaks down the door wide open so hard that it can't be stopped. Even if an entire marine team focuses one Onos he often is able to get the power node down.
In tandem, Onos ARE mid-game life forms right now. Sure, you might consider sometime around five minutes to be mid-game, but that's a little silly because aliens haven't even gotten augment yet (which apparently is called tier 2 or something), and few advanced life forms are on the field yet. By the time of eight minutes you will start seeing some fades, and by ten probably at least one Onos, and by twelve multiple Onos.
The reason we can't handle the Onos attacking our power node is that we're not turtling, often times we're attacking the alien base and one marauding Onos forces us to beacon back just because our power nodes can now go down within ten seconds. Power nodes are one of the easiest things to kill, structure wise, if not the easiest, and need stronger durability as such for how vital they are. Think of how vital command centers are to marines. If they lose their last one it's game over for them. Well that's basically what happens most of the time with the power node. The main base power node goes down and marines are screwed, as soon as you look on your minimap and see that Onos attacking your base power node you can almost say "GG" right there. If you have a forward base you're going to lose it more than likely, and eventually everything else.
Now, ways you could reduce the presence of Onos would be to nerf the rate at which hives mature, and, as you already plan to, create more, earlier resource sinks for alien players. If you nerfed stomp to where marines could actually survive it with multiple Onos then you would give marines at least more of a fighting chance. Other ways, as mentioned previously, would be to allow command chair to power bases. It seems a little redundant that the chair stays powered but the rest of the base doesn't. Of course there needs to be an end to turtling, so I would propose linking sentries and armories to the power node so that they cease functioning while buildings like the observatory and infantry portals continue to function. These changes, compounded or implemented exclusively, would result in a fairer game for the marines, and overall a funner game.
So.... Really what this is about is that jet-packs aren't good enough? If the jetpacks had an ALT-function that propel him forward/backwards. Like a jolt as such, consuming approxx 15% fuel. Or would that be taking Player control? D'":
<!--quoteo(post=1935141:date=May 10 2012, 08:46 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ May 10 2012, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So.... Really what this is about is that jet-packs aren't good enough? If the jetpacks had an ALT-function that propel him forward/backwards. Like a jolt as such, consuming approxx 15% fuel. Or would that be taking Player control? D'":<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's not enough room in most areas to actually jetpack around to get to safety.
It does run out quickly. It would be good if prototype lab was a little more accessible and jet-packs could have a couple of up-grades. like extra fuel. Or an ALT-function rocket boost.
Comments
The only people raging here are the people calling me a rager or a butthurt COD kiddie or whatever.
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not a game programmer either, I am also an end customer, I paid for the game and was invited to become a playtester based on streaming, and knowledge of the game. Not all playtesters are super programmers Master, a lot of us are just your daily users, just with that special 'playtester' icon, And by raging, look how you act in this thread, I consider that raging. Sorry if you are moved differently by that, but yea, it sort of is annoying and I am going to point it out :)
If you don't want feedback on your game why does this forum exist? Please do tell me
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing free feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe what Lut is saying is that instead of being all like, "Onos is broke! Halp Marines!" try providing specific and detailed problems and possible solutions. Anecdotal evidence is typically frowned upon.
How did I act in this thread? I posted a problem and got blasted for it.
I'm done with the forums.
3 onos took out flight control even after beaconing. We killed all of them when they attacked data core, and we rebuilt flight control. Then 3 more onos appeared and ended the game the same way -- hit power node.
The BEST PART was that I put power packs on the observatories and IPs in data core and it didn't help because onos cannot be killed with stomp.
I'm not saying Onos is ridiculous because we lost a game like that, but I'm saying its ridiculous because we lost a game like that.
Especially since the alien team said afterwards that "we didn't even plan to rush at the same time."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos are potential momentum changers for the aliens... you should expect them to take the field around the ten minute mark, and thus have a plan for it.
Seems to me your complaint is that you committed to the "slow res stragulation" tactic and at that point you expect the game to be pretty much won and you can take your time and slowly close in for the kill.
As far as i can tell there are 3 phases to the game, Early game, Mid Game and End Game.
Early Game is all about getting those resource points and possibly trying some early zergs. The goal for each team here will be to either win the game through a zerg or to reach the Mid Game before the other team.
Mid Game seems more about momentum than anything. The goal for each team here is to either win the game through a zerg or to reach the End Game before the other team.
The End Game is about mass destruction... things can, will and should go down fast. The goal here is for each team to massacre the other team. Teams that reach here first have VERY distinct advantage (for a limited time) to close out the match quickly.
From what I can tell of your description, your team failed to do so... and then the Aliens reached their "end game" and won the match through better gameplay. Put more simply, you got beat. Sorry if that sounds snotty, i'm not intending it to be so...
However... I will agree that the ONOS stomp ability is overpowered currently, I'd like to see them not be able to stomp for like 3-4 seconds (a 1-2 second delay after Marines recover) after the previous stomp... I believe that would allow marines to have a better chance to escape the big beastie.
Yes, 3 onos working together will take down a powernode, but good teamwork can allow a marine team to recover from that. On the other side of things though, 5 Jetpack Marines with just LMGs working together, will take down a hive, which is much harder for aliens to defend against.
Writing all this has given me an interesting insight - Marines have a much harder time switching from Mid game to End game, psychologically, than aliens do, mainly due to the lack of really viceral visual markers. In essence, going from Skulk to Onos is a huge difference, whereas going from Armor 0 to Armor 3, Weapons 0 to Weapons 3 and getting a GL well its just not comparable in the "FEEL" category.
I'm not a game programmer. I am the end customer. The end customer is helping the game programmer by providing<b> free</b> feedback on the product. This is how actual businesses operate. You know, in the real world. Now people are calling me a "rager" because I don't personally playtest the game? Yea good luck with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos are extremely OP when it comes to power nodes. Every current game can be over in 10mins if the aliens survive that long and rush the marine power node. Now I am also going to post some screen shots below of a server with no turret limit, no whip limit, no arc limit. I wrapped around the map of mineshaft Whips with crags. Upgraded everysingle one. I also spend over 1,000 Tres on Arcs, not to mention the turret spam in Operations and Drill Repair(So many building the game won't let you build anymore) that can kill an Onos in 3 seconds.
Needless to say if you count how many arcs are in the screen shots you will not be able to count them since they keep adding in a single line(they should stack on top of each other). Marines win this game.
<img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c204/princekahuna/2012-05-09_00001.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c204/princekahuna/2012-05-09_00002.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I have to respond to this first.
Steam says I've played this game for 472 hours. Most of that has been commanding.
I have commanded *literally* hundreds, probably a thousand games.
My "one" anecdote sums up a LOT of games.
Even with this onos issue, we STILL win the majority of marine games I command.
But there are way too many insane people attacking me for posting a concern on a forum intended for that purpose. So I'm not posting on this site anymore.
This isn't to say, it isn't a problem with the mechanic of evolving based on pres, but it is to say that the stomp plays a significant factor in a way of balancing the feature.
Both of these examples thus show that the Onos, whether from a balanced game, or a completely dominated one, that they unduly change the game. Marines have no answer to them, nor do marines have any sort of technology that uses pres that will influence the game so severely while only at the ten minute mark or so in a normal game. Of course we have to factor in the legendary <b>EXOOOOOOO</b> which will, of course, change things, but ultimately the issue is with the Onos, and I don't think marines are going to be able to contest an Onos just because they have exosuits; alas we won't know till it is released, but I hold a strong skepticism that one element is going to fix such a massive problem in the game as so many others claim.
Wouldn't an 'easy' solution be to have the powernode 'upgrade' itself over time so it gets more armour/health the longer it's in marine control?
Sort of like how the Aliens structures 'mature' over time to become more resilient.
This way the high priority target will shift from the powernode which can effectively shut down a room full of structures to selectively picking off the structure.
It also gives a high risk high reward pay off. Do you spend 'x' amount of time chomping the powernode hoping marines don't come in time to save it or do you forgo the 'node and chomp individual structures from highest priority to least but leaving them active and potentially having marines respond quicker to the threat (Eg: Phase Gate).
This also means that by the time the first Onos pops its head out of an egg the marine start powernode and other 'nodes that have been in marine control for 'x' minutes are more resilient to alien attacks.
Then ofcourse you can balance how tough the 'nodes are meant to be with bilebomb, Onos, skulks, fades etc.
Edit: Also I am not a fan of introducing 'exceptions' to the rule. For example having building 'A' 'B' and 'C' but not 'D' 'E' or 'F' work without a powernode all in the name of game balance is confusing. The command console/chair should not work if the powernode is knocked out of commission.
Amazing how many problems this one issue is causing ;3
Amazing how many problems this one issue is causing ;3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the problem is the Onos stomp itself. Onos IS an alien resource sink that is far too shallow for how much reward it gives, is the problem. If it wasn't so shallow, so to speak, it would be an effective resource sink.
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!
One more goes the way of Grissi.
You shall not be missed.
Speak for yourself.
Ye, it was more of a way to be facetious.
It is always sad when good players become so paranoid and deluded and these forums. But in such a state it really is better that they leave. They are only trying to be martyrs, which can never be respected.
Jetpacks are great against Onos, but Jetpacks suck on every map except mineshaft which is a notoriously bad map for marines so not much of a boost
Option B is you <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118377" target="_blank">setup a ninja phase gate that cannot be stomped</a>; both very risky and expensive if the location requires a powerpack + MAC/Jetpack to build it
Plan C requires level 3 armor, Welders, Shotguns, nearly full energy for nanoshield, a Forward Armory, and finally ARCs. . .
Yes, you <u>need all that crap to have a fair fight against multiple Onos</u> otherwise they will just kill a few people and run
ARCs force them to stick around, but notice how you're still on borrowed time because nanoshield is part of the equation
-
its prolly a good time to trade bases with them every time they try to attack you, hit their hive
Alien buildings "work" when they're not connected to infestation (with the exception of unrooted whips), and I don't see anyone justifying the difference in <i><b>less than </b></i>20,000 words spread over 4 posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this. Powernodes have been an enormous headache since the start. Every "solution" offered just creates new problems.
How long is it going to take before the devs realize it's simply a broken mechanic? How long is it going to take them to realize that some neat lighting effects aren't worth ruining gameplay over? How long is it going to take them to realize the power grid system needs to be axed just like multiple commanders?
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes sense, but it doesn't really work like that because the alien economy in NS2 is broken and Onii are powerful enough that three is pretty much an absolute game ender in 6v6. You don't have to sacrifice much to rush three Onii up fast: Commander = fast onos, permgorge = fast onos, and one permskulk = fast onos. That still leaves you with one fast lerk and two fast fades, which is pretty much the "correct" amount of advanced lifeforms midgame anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1935032:date=May 10 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 10 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, noble idea, but it doesn't translate in practice. Powernodes don't discourage turtling, they actually incentivize turtling. If you have a weak point; the first thing you want to do is obviously to reinforce that weak point. The complaints you see in this thread are from players who didn't reinforce the weak point and therefore lost to a cheap rush -- to which the only defence is turtling (block the powernode with structures and place turrets facing the powernode).
You've been trying to tweak the powernodes for two years now? As far as I can see, they're still just as much of a problem as they were two years ago. So, do you really still think this is something you can tweak your way out of?
<b>The power grid system in short:</b>
Pro: Cool lighting effect when power goes down.
Con: Crappy red emergency lighting that ruins map aesthetics.
Con: Doesn't actually achieve the purpose they were created for (and personally I wonder if turtling was a problem that really needed solving in the first place, it was never a problem in the later versions of NS1, so what exactly has changed to make it a problem in NS2?).
Con: Creates a myriad of new gameplay issues.
Con: Adds meaningless complexity (complexity for the sake of complexity).
I'm done with the forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't give in and leave. You are entitled to your opinion regardless whether people agree or not. I am seeing a trend towards nastiness on this forum which I will admit now has made me not post as much as I would like. The last thread I made descended into childish rage by some and although I have my opinions I refuse to lower myself to the attitudes of those who cannot accept the fact we all have different opinions. Its a shame as a good friend of mine plays NS2 now as I bought it for his birthday recently and he is actually scared to post any ideas or suggestions on here because of the reactions some posts get. Its a shame when a grown man cannot make his feelings known in a beta test of a computer game for fear of a minority who cannot accept the fact that others may not think like him.
Charlie, Hugh and UW are intelligent people and I do not think for a minute that the opinions of those that spout hate and abuse at every post will be taken notice of, or at least I hope not. The game is still a while from completion and there is a load of stuff to come and lets face it, even when 1.0 rolls out its still only the beginning and the game will still grow and change.
If you have an opinion or idea then don't be scared to post it, and lets have calm well thought out counter arguments. But do it in a adult way and lets build a community not divide it.
The Onos was the default reply anytime people tried to discuss that it was too easy to turtle and just build turrets.
But the Onos is coming.
Stop turtling and we will stop coming in with Onos train.
As Onos I can take down turrets, power, and Armory.
I usually play it when I hit that realization....wait a minute.... we control most of the map...we should be winning.
Play Aliens more and you will understand...and play Onos.
The turtling is still actually a huge issue on 32 player public games in NS1. Most horrible commanders can win games by turtling up one hive and then teching to maxed out end game and then slowly pushing out across the whole map.
However, I think the onos and alien commander should be more than enough design possibilities and tools to give aliens the way to break the turtle. The scalable res model alone should give aliens the ability to capitalize their ridiculous map control against turtling and push it home from there, the new and improved onos and alien commander spells could be just the icing on the cake. They are also still going to add 3rd hive abilities like xeno into the game, aren't those a potential solution?
In short: I do think turtling can become an issue in NS1 pub games. However, I absolutely don't believe power grid is necessary or purposeful way for fixing that, there are way better solutions - many of them already available in the game. If the grid is there to solve turtling, it's the biggest band aid solution in the whole game.
However, I think the onos and alien commander should be more than enough design possibilities and tools to give aliens the way to break the turtle. The scalable res model alone should give aliens the ability to capitalize their ridiculous map control against turtling and push it home from there, the new and improved onos and alien commander spells could be just the icing on the cake. They are also still going to add 3rd hive abilities like xeno into the game, aren't those a potential solution?
In short: I do think turtling can become an issue in NS1 pub games. However, I absolutely don't believe power grid is necessary or purposeful way for fixing that, there are way better solutions - many of them already available in the game. If the grid is there to solve turtling, it's the biggest band aid solution in the whole game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to dig that deeply into it; yes, I agree.
The reason why turtling became a problem on 32 player public games is in part because of the non-scaleability of the res model (should be fixed in NS2), the inherent advantage marines get in combat the more players there are (can't be fixed, inherent in melee vs. ranged combat model), and in part simply because public players don't know how to exploit weaknesses in the turtling strategy (can't be fixed).
Even if one conceded, as you say, that turtling is a problem that needs addressing, the power grid system is not the solution.
2.If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you read my above post. I built enough turrets to kill an onos in 3 seconds. Marines win.
Precisely. The timings for lifeforms are fine <b>if</b> the quantity problem is fixed. Unfortunately with the Alien Commander in the game the quantity problem will never be fixed and thus it seems the timings will never be fixed either.
If/When the p.res nerf happens, maybe UWE should look at undoing some of the nerfs aimed at other Alien lifeforms that were attempts to fix the mass quantity problem of the week.
1. Ideally (And I am <i>not saying we are there yet</i>!) any Alien team that can pump out six Onii in a 6v6 has already lost, as they would have sacrificed crucial mid-game life forms to get those Onii. Any marine team that allowed an alien team to win with no mid-game lifeforms deserves to lose.
2. Onos and powernode relationship. Ideally, we want players to win games and not structures. The power nodes provide a great safety valve to keep the game flowing freely - A lock to which the Onos is the key. If marines choose to turtle a base and spam sentry guns, the power node provides away for the Aliens to break through with an Onos and (deservedly) win.
I know I'm simplifying, but that is a rough idea of where we are coming from. There's much to tweak!
Also, this thread got a bit heated earlier - let's keep it cool cucumbers. There's so many good ideas coming out, it's a shame when they get lost in mud slinging!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you would define mid-game by a time range, whatever time it may be to the developers, but to me it's the time within five minutes after augment. That is when you first see the mass Onos attacks. By this time marines might have some advanced tech, but absolutely nothing to handle the Onos. There is no pre-Onos resource sink that aliens need to use. Fades and Lerks are just something that aliens can go, if they want to, but won't bring marines to their grinding halt like the Onos will, which often leads to the forgoing of the "mid-game" life forms. And, ideally, jetpacks would counter Onos, however, as stated previously the maps aren't really thought of with jetpacks in mind; there's often not enough room around or something to jetpack on top of to get to safety. Second, the Onos isn't a "key", it's a freaking siege ram that breaks down the door wide open so hard that it can't be stopped. Even if an entire marine team focuses one Onos he often is able to get the power node down.
In tandem, Onos ARE mid-game life forms right now. Sure, you might consider sometime around five minutes to be mid-game, but that's a little silly because aliens haven't even gotten augment yet (which apparently is called tier 2 or something), and few advanced life forms are on the field yet. By the time of eight minutes you will start seeing some fades, and by ten probably at least one Onos, and by twelve multiple Onos.
The reason we can't handle the Onos attacking our power node is that we're not turtling, often times we're attacking the alien base and one marauding Onos forces us to beacon back just because our power nodes can now go down within ten seconds. Power nodes are one of the easiest things to kill, structure wise, if not the easiest, and need stronger durability as such for how vital they are. Think of how vital command centers are to marines. If they lose their last one it's game over for them. Well that's basically what happens most of the time with the power node. The main base power node goes down and marines are screwed, as soon as you look on your minimap and see that Onos attacking your base power node you can almost say "GG" right there. If you have a forward base you're going to lose it more than likely, and eventually everything else.
Now, ways you could reduce the presence of Onos would be to nerf the rate at which hives mature, and, as you already plan to, create more, earlier resource sinks for alien players. If you nerfed stomp to where marines could actually survive it with multiple Onos then you would give marines at least more of a fighting chance. Other ways, as mentioned previously, would be to allow command chair to power bases. It seems a little redundant that the chair stays powered but the rest of the base doesn't. Of course there needs to be an end to turtling, so I would propose linking sentries and armories to the power node so that they cease functioning while buildings like the observatory and infantry portals continue to function. These changes, compounded or implemented exclusively, would result in a fairer game for the marines, and overall a funner game.
If the jetpacks had an ALT-function that propel him forward/backwards. Like a jolt as such, consuming approxx 15% fuel.
Or would that be taking Player control? D'":
If the jetpacks had an ALT-function that propel him forward/backwards. Like a jolt as such, consuming approxx 15% fuel.
Or would that be taking Player control? D'":<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's not enough room in most areas to actually jetpack around to get to safety.