The Gorge Thread
Fluid Core
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63260Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63260Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">All Things Gorge</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Current main discussion:</b>
Hydras - Mini cysts - Combat<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Introduction</b>
Hello Community!
I've been a fan of Natural Selection for a long time. It was my main game for a few years since some time before the combat patch. All time I could, I would play as Kharaa, and most of the time it was as a gorge. There is no clear origin to my love for the little fellow, but I think it was the strategic impact you alone could have on the game as a whole, building fortifications in choke points, locking down certain portions of the maps, creating sneaky healing and cloaking bases, assisting in attacks and dropping hives. There was much more thrill and potentially greater impact that you had on the game as a gorge then a fighter. The fact that you got no fame didn't bother me, I quite enjoy standing in the shadows and knowing I made an impact rather then top the frags.
This brings us to the current situation, the sequel is in development, and the time to affect the game is now. What better time to name our concerns and desires for the Gorge will there ever be then now? The thing is, there is so much I'd like to discuss, but looking at the forums, there are some ideas to be find here and there pretty much anywhere in different threads, and not anything dedicated fully to just the Gorge.
So that's the goal of this thread: to create a place for discussing everything and anything about our favourite little lifeform.
<b>Guidelines</b>
Try to keep the discussion somewhat related to the gorge. There will probably be discussion about the roles of various structures and their use, as well as the Kham, but try to keep it in relation to the gorge. I suppose some discussion about removing the Kham is inevitable, but try not to discuss it too deeply, as Unknown Worlds seem pretty keen to keep it in. I will try to keep up with the discussions and post the main topics in this post, so that everyone can find them easily. And please keep it civil folks :)
<b>Suggested Topics</b>
<ul><li>Role</li><li>Movement</li><li>Buildings</li><li>Abilities</li></ul>
<b>My ideas</b>
<i>Role</i> - I'd like to see the Gorge become more viable as a combat engineer or building strategic defence then as a pure medic or base builder. Right now I feel that the gorge alone is too weak in direct combat, it need the assistant of other players or structures to stand a chance against even a lone marine. I don't think the gorge should be made more durable, but I think that it need a better movement system.
<i>Movement</i> - One thing I had in mind would be if you would bounce against walls when you slide, increasing your speed too. This way clever use of the environment would not only allow you to travel faster, but also in a more creative way. With faster moving around, it would be easier to escape and probably be to powerful if the healing stayed as it is now.
<i>Buildings</i> - What you could do is make buildings boost the healing, such that the regular heal spray is weaker, but if you spray a clog, it would emit a healing aura for a second, increasing your healing in defensive positions but not making you too powerful in the fray of an assault. With weaker healing, the gorge would stand even less chance in combat if the rest stayed the same, so preferably the spit would be tweaked.
<i>Abilities</i> - Right now, the spit is hard to hit and not any impressive even if you do. I think it's a good thing that the spit is hard to hit, it require skill and predicting your enemies movement if you are to hit. So let's focus on this aspect and reward consecutive hits against a target. The way I imagine this done, would be to add a stacking damage over time effect on the spit for the next second or so, but short enough so that you couldn't miss any spit to stack it. That way a skilled gorge would be able to fairly quickly take down a marine, ideally before a single marine could kill you with a rifle.
I hope to see much discussion on all aspects of the gorge, and if you know of a good thread about some aspect, feel free to link it for our benefit :)
Hydras - Mini cysts - Combat<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Introduction</b>
Hello Community!
I've been a fan of Natural Selection for a long time. It was my main game for a few years since some time before the combat patch. All time I could, I would play as Kharaa, and most of the time it was as a gorge. There is no clear origin to my love for the little fellow, but I think it was the strategic impact you alone could have on the game as a whole, building fortifications in choke points, locking down certain portions of the maps, creating sneaky healing and cloaking bases, assisting in attacks and dropping hives. There was much more thrill and potentially greater impact that you had on the game as a gorge then a fighter. The fact that you got no fame didn't bother me, I quite enjoy standing in the shadows and knowing I made an impact rather then top the frags.
This brings us to the current situation, the sequel is in development, and the time to affect the game is now. What better time to name our concerns and desires for the Gorge will there ever be then now? The thing is, there is so much I'd like to discuss, but looking at the forums, there are some ideas to be find here and there pretty much anywhere in different threads, and not anything dedicated fully to just the Gorge.
So that's the goal of this thread: to create a place for discussing everything and anything about our favourite little lifeform.
<b>Guidelines</b>
Try to keep the discussion somewhat related to the gorge. There will probably be discussion about the roles of various structures and their use, as well as the Kham, but try to keep it in relation to the gorge. I suppose some discussion about removing the Kham is inevitable, but try not to discuss it too deeply, as Unknown Worlds seem pretty keen to keep it in. I will try to keep up with the discussions and post the main topics in this post, so that everyone can find them easily. And please keep it civil folks :)
<b>Suggested Topics</b>
<ul><li>Role</li><li>Movement</li><li>Buildings</li><li>Abilities</li></ul>
<b>My ideas</b>
<i>Role</i> - I'd like to see the Gorge become more viable as a combat engineer or building strategic defence then as a pure medic or base builder. Right now I feel that the gorge alone is too weak in direct combat, it need the assistant of other players or structures to stand a chance against even a lone marine. I don't think the gorge should be made more durable, but I think that it need a better movement system.
<i>Movement</i> - One thing I had in mind would be if you would bounce against walls when you slide, increasing your speed too. This way clever use of the environment would not only allow you to travel faster, but also in a more creative way. With faster moving around, it would be easier to escape and probably be to powerful if the healing stayed as it is now.
<i>Buildings</i> - What you could do is make buildings boost the healing, such that the regular heal spray is weaker, but if you spray a clog, it would emit a healing aura for a second, increasing your healing in defensive positions but not making you too powerful in the fray of an assault. With weaker healing, the gorge would stand even less chance in combat if the rest stayed the same, so preferably the spit would be tweaked.
<i>Abilities</i> - Right now, the spit is hard to hit and not any impressive even if you do. I think it's a good thing that the spit is hard to hit, it require skill and predicting your enemies movement if you are to hit. So let's focus on this aspect and reward consecutive hits against a target. The way I imagine this done, would be to add a stacking damage over time effect on the spit for the next second or so, but short enough so that you couldn't miss any spit to stack it. That way a skilled gorge would be able to fairly quickly take down a marine, ideally before a single marine could kill you with a rifle.
I hope to see much discussion on all aspects of the gorge, and if you know of a good thread about some aspect, feel free to link it for our benefit :)
Comments
I like the alien commander, but now what is gorge supposed to do?
Hydras don't do anything against anyone anytime anywhere ever no way no how.
And clogs are just a nuisance. Closing off areas of the map hurts the aliens just as bad as the marines, if not more. Even the word "clog" sounds like it was cooked up as an april fool's joke like the Babbler King.
Sounds a bit band aidy though.
or clogs, when touched. would actually make them useful.
That would be too much like webbing. If you want NS1 then go play NS1. Am I doing it right? :)
I like the clog IDEA but right now I would prefer if it could actually be used as webbing also, or something to the same effect.
Maybe you *are* having a bad day dude!?! I get it was a joke but some of the things I say about aids babies isn't that funny either...
I like the alien commander, but now what is gorge supposed to do?
Hydras don't do anything against anyone anytime anywhere ever no way no how.
And clogs are just a nuisance. Closing off areas of the map hurts the aliens just as bad as the marines, if not more. Even the word "clog" sounds like it was cooked up as an april fool's joke like the Babbler King.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your exaggerations make it difficult to debate productive over this issue. If you can't write something useful, please don't write anything at all.
For example, the hydras may be a bit weak right now, but they are in no way useless. It's really annoying to have kids always trolling around while others try to actually help the devs and make this game a success.
At the topic:
<b>combat:</b>
To make the gorge more combat effective, or at least a threat to one single marine, you need to increase the health so he can stand one LMG mag with use of healspray. Or you do it the other way and increase the damage done with spit. It takes skill to get more than one hit with spit, so why is the damage so low? Increasing the damage would aid skillful players who can aim with it but don't make him to strong in normal play.
Even the slow down on the spit wasn't a bad idea. Sure, in that one build it was way to strong, but bringing it back with decreased strength could make him a viable combat supporter again.
Yeah, I know: Mechanics that take away player control are bad. At least that's what TF2 devs say. But even in TF2 there are enough weapons who take away player control. So lets face it, this mechanics can be ok, if they don't take away the complete control from the player for example. Slowing him down is ok. It only gets more difficult for the player, but he has still control. So please don't make it sacrosanct, that this mechanics are bad. You just have to weigh how frustrating it is in exchange to the variety it brings for the whole game.
<b>fun:</b>
Increasing the gorges usefulness is the way to go here. But don't get me wrong. Usefulness doesn't mean that he must be obligated to look at RTs for several seconds and pushing mouse2. Usefulness means, that he has impact on the game with the decisions he make. When you have to speed up the building process of RTs, than there is no decision. If you do it, it is good for your team. If not, you are stupid. No decision involved. No impact on the game. No fun. Just a boring job you have to do. Sure... I know, that this mechanic is in to get away a bit of the pressure the aliens made in early game. But may be there are other ways to balance the player amount dominance of the aliens in early game. But this is another topic.
The clogs itself are a nice addition with much potential. I think they need to be way bigger but should allow aliens to pass slowly through them. Fluid Cores idea for healing-clogs is another nice addition.
<b>healing:</b>
I like the idea of making the clogs little heal stations for a short time when heal-sprayed. Even better may be that the healing effect isn't bound to a fixed time. Instead you have a healing amount per clog. When you healspray them, they charge up with healing-power and when an wounded alien comes along, they work like craigs (only for players, not buildings) until their healing-charge is depleted.
This way you have another use for clogs in addition to path-blocking. A gorge could set up hidden healing stations over the map and run around to charge them, when depleted. Give it a nice glowing material effect when charged, like the bile effect on buildings and you have a cool new feature.
Another idea already mentioned was the overhealing (just like in TF2). Boosting the health of a player to 125% for a short time would make the gorge really useful. If you want you can add a trade-off in form of a glowing material effect on the overhealed alien. This would make the overhealed alien visible like a neon sign, and there for easier to spot for marines. Also they would know instantly, that this target is more dangerous.
This ability would be way better for a slot2 augmentation upgrade than clogs. This way you could make the clogs available from start, giving the gorges something better to do in early game instead of speedbuilding RTs.
Because every structure require infestation, you can be much less sneaky with hydras than you could with Offence Chambers, and I also feel they are less reliable as a defensive structure. You can't use them as cover unless you place clogs, and they also seem to die too easy compared to the damage you deal. Because of this, you are reduced to pretty much only assist in speeding up the structures the commander builds, as you can't rush across half the map and try to lock down a section of the map: you need infestation and the hydras are too weak. Inmy experience from NS1, you would survive if you had managed to build one OC before the marines came, and with two you could comfortably hold it against a few marines.
On the topic of free structures, I'm not sure what problem it's supposed to solve. Large teams can still put up loads of structures; with the same amount of harvesters a single person would be able to build structures in the same frequency as you were alone. This naturally leads to more structures if there is more players in the team, but you have more opponents to kill them, and with free structures you still get more structures with larger teams (assuming that you use more gorges...). Fair enough, due to hardcap on the number of structures, someone who stays gorge the entire game can't cover a room in hydras, but what are you actually supposed to spend your res on? Free structures create more problems than they solve. They give the hint that the gorge is a temporary life-form, something you can be for a while to assist your team and wait for resources to stack up, but if you do, your structures will die. Since you can't build on another place, what are you supposed to do when you have assisted the kham in speeding his structures and set up your defensive position in a good spot? Just hide behind a corner and rightclick the fades returning from the assault, and run in behind oni and rightclick. Because you have -nothing- that remotely resembles skill to use other then spit, and it's not worth the energy since other life-forms need the heal.
It got slightly confusing, but I got to cut this short now. Will continue when I got time :)
<i>Movement -</i> Movement feels fine, however marines seem to too easily catch a fleeing gorge. Its bad enough to always lose a battle against a marine, but accepting this and running, only to always be caught is infuriating. Maybe Gorges need movement chambers so they can teleport away to a hive.
<i>Buildings -</i> Something that seriously needs to be considered is aliens becoming Res locked. Alien resource towers are weak, and the alien commander cannot recycle. It would be nice if gorge could build harvesters.
<i>Abilities -</i> I can understand the decision to nerf the healspray. However its had the penalty of destroying gorge survivability. Also I miss webbing.
This is the only point, I don't agree with.
Free structures are supposed to solve the problem, that you have to stay gorge the entire round, when you choose the gorge. Because you have not enough res for another life form if you play the gorge effective. Sure, there are SOME people who like to play gorge the whole round. But in no way should the game force ALL players to do this. The problem was not, that you would accumulate to much hydras over the time. This could be easily solved by cap the maximum placeable per gorge. The problem was, that you force a player to play one life form the whole round. This is not good game design. You shouldn't force the player to do something, you should offer the player several viable options.
This means, that the gorge has to be a viable option in early, mid and endgame. He should be useful in any case. You should want one in your team and you should want to play one no matter if its early, mid or endgame. The solution can not be, to force the players to play gorge the whole game, because he is to boring to play in late game. The solution is to make him fun the whole game. Than it is no problem that this player has 100pres most of the time. Yeah its not good game design as well, but this can be solved by other res sinks. Res sinks that are available for every life form, not only one where you are forced to do so, to play effective.
Look at it from another view: If one player wants to play gorge because it is fun and useful for the team, why is it a problem, that the player got 100pres?
Because he can go instantly onos? No, this is a whole other problem. When a team full of ohshi (my favorite plural of onos) is more powerful than a good balanced team with players of every life form, than there is another problem with the balance. But its not related to the gorge.
The free structures give you the freedom of where to play gorge in the map AND to switch lifeforms later on if you want. Sure, it's not perfect right now...<ul><li>recycle range to short</li><li>should scale slightly with more hives (one more per hive is enough)</li><li>minicysts should grow infestation even when unconnected, to allow tactical forward bases</li></ul> ...and maybe more, but this are all no problems that can't be solved without the regular "lets take this change back".
Maybe we even need another radical change to the alien team. For the sake of asymmetry and game mechanics. Maybe scrap pres for aliens completely and give gestation-points per kill or something. But this is another topic.
Yes this is another issue. It should have unlimited range, just requiring line of sight. The tiny range means I am being forced to build hydras in compromising/obvious positions since I don't want to risk being unable to remove them.
One way to do this would be to have the gorge's E button, when long-pressed, shoot a ball of "special spit" that is colored differently from his normal one. Whatever of his own structures this spit touches would dissolve.
This would be nice, but going a step further - how about the gorge spits a web that tugs the hydra down? Make it look like the gorge is unrooting the hydra.
<!--quoteo(post=1935186:date=May 10 2012, 01:44 PM:name=gamester_5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gamester_5 @ May 10 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about making alien buildings pass through by alien life forms? I have built a few goo walls only to have an Onos die because of it, not good for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where, but I believe I saw an UW dev say they wanted to do this. Especially for Onos, who get stuck on buildings, so wanted to make the alien structures move around aliens that collide with them - like foliage in crysis for example.
Heard that somewhere too, and I think it fits well with the theme. Will possibly add some interesting mechanic as marines could potentially sprint right behind a retreating onos to get past your obstructions...
Please enlighten us, what do you like about how the current gorge play out? What are your tips and tricks? Is there any aspect of the gorge that you would like to see tweaked or improved? I too like the gorge, or I wouldn't bother with this, but I think it is rough around the edges and could be so much more then it is now.
Hydras really don't do it for me though since you must camp them to be effective
Clogs can get Onos killed so I rarely use them for anything other than a Gorge ladder
And Mini Cysts provide very bad forward vision compared to a drifter
Late game if you got 2 people out of energy you might see them both go gorge to help build structures inside a marine base while an "Onos Party" goes down
Very rare though as your team would have to be both coordinated and actually losing enough that 2 people go out of energy
<i>Very rare like I say</i>
-
They shouldn't be <i>mini </i>anything and should be their own thing entirely. Originally mini-cyst were there to allow the gorge to make his own little areas. Over time its morphed and merged with the kham's duties of spreading infestation, and now the distinction is fuzzy and causes confusion and other problems.
Mini-cysts should create their own infestation disconnected to hives, but can not be used to as part of the cyst line. They should be renamed to something else to make it distinct from cysts, and look different (simple color and size change will do). The infestation it creates can be used to build everything (except hives). However everything on that infestation does not automatically build, and slowly loses health even after being built (unless the <i>minicyst </i>itself is within the radius of a cyst). Crags shouldn't be able to heal building disconnected to the hive. In other words, its totally dependent on the gorge. However it allows forward bases and capping of RTs ahead of the cyst line.
This next part is not really an idea to improve the gorge specifically, but addresses another problem in the game: the omnipresent infestation hive sight. Many have been asking for the removal of hive sight from infestation, and I tend to agree. Instead change it so only the gorge's <i>minicyst </i>can provide the hivesight that currently all infestation provides. The mini-cyst should visually look very different as to allow a sneaky marines the chance to take it out or avoid it and remain undetected.
take out minicyst
hydras can build anywhere but lower health slowly overtime unless cyst nearby and generates its own patch of infestation
clogs .. duno..
Wow, great minds think alike, eh? ;) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118432" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118432</a>
Very simple things, for instance helping to build res towers and dropping hydras at each one. While this doesn't stop marines being able to take them down, it gains that extra bit of time that can allow back up to come and stop the tower from falling. 1 gorge with a few well placed hydras can delay a marine push very well. Not to mention the forward healer which is great for anyone who lerks or fades with carapace.
I think people just havnt thought enough about hydra placement. For instance, rather than out a hydra up at a point where it gets maximum range to shoot marines, put them at spots so that they just block LMG fire to rt's from far away... Or drop them behind the res tower so the marine can't sit behind it and axe it while looking out for skulls. The average marine will choose to knife where they can't be hit by the hydra, but this leaves them open to an attack as their back faces the entrance of incoming skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1935313:date=May 11 2012, 02:16 AM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ May 11 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello people,
due to the recent discussions about Hydras (general power || Hydras costing TRES or not || dissolve after 1 min when not being gorge), I decided to approach this "Hydra problem" from a different side by adding a player skill curve to them.
Original <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118255&st=60" target="_blank">post</a>:
Long story short I managed to create my first mod.
Here is the video:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Things that could be implemented:
> tracers that go from the Hydras point of view to your cross hair (a bit like the pistol laser)
> secondary fire mode that does something different (like structure damage?)
Downside: at the moment this takes away 1 ability slot (button 3). Maybe the structure menu could be moved away from the ability slots.
So.. What do you guys think? Feedback would be much appreciated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->