Skilled based movement
dooney
Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148697Members
Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148697Members
I'm curious whether skill ceiling has been lowered. The reason I ask this as because most new games that are released today are extremely easy to play. I loved counter-strike 1.6 but hated source and hate cs:go even more due to the fact of how easy it is. Is there still bunny hopping? Is there still different techniques you can master to avoid gunfire? I remember it was easy to tell the different between an experienced and pro player by the way they moved. I don't really want to buy the game if the game mechanics have been dumb downed from natural selection 1. One of the biggest reasons why I loved natural selection 1 was the movement and how it didn't limit the player.
Comments
Skulk, lerk, and fade have quite a bit of movement skill involved with them. Skulks have wall jumping which is somewhat similar to bunny hopping (faster movement, some build up time, loss of bonus speed when failing to execute). Lerk and fade movement is more about in combat moving, juking shotgun shots with blink and pancaking/dodging with lerk flight.
Marine's movement is rather limited. Your in combat speed is limited and you rely on strafing and jumping to juke. Nothing like bunny hop for them. Jetpacks get quite a bit more juking power, but again it's just movement, no bunny hop.
Skulk, lerk, and fade have quite a bit of movement skill involved with them. Skulks have wall jumping which is somewhat similar to bunny hopping (faster movement, some build up time, loss of bonus speed when failing to execute). Lerk and fade movement is more about in combat moving, juking shotgun shots with blink and pancaking/dodging with lerk flight.
Marine's movement is rather limited. Your in combat speed is limited and you rely on strafing and jumping to juke. Nothing like bunny hop for them. Jetpacks get quite a bit more juking power, but again it's just movement, no bunny hop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So does the game have a similar to feel to natural selection 1 in terms of movement skill?
Not by a long shot, and marine-movement is downright horrible.
Aliens are similar, but marines are fundamentally different. Sprint (yes, like COD sprint) is how marines move around out of combat. If you sprint into combat, you'll probably die because there is a delay before you can fire. When not sprinting, you're limited mostly to jumping, strafing, and circle strafing to juke. The sprinting is pretty lame. It could be modded out, but the game would have to be rebalanced around significantly longer travel times for marines.
Ah, that's disappointing.
Ah that blows.. I really enjoyed the movement in natural selection 1 as it was very rewarding the more time you put into it. Same with counter-strike 1.6, it felt very rewarding to get better at movement, and after a while you felt really in control of what you were doing. I played COD for a while but ended up quitting because even though I was getting better it didn't feel rewarding to get better.. I don't know.. its hard to explain.. newer games just don't seem to be as rewarding the longer you play them.
The exact implementation has been changing quite a bit, here's a trick map from some builds ago :
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Marines feels overweighted.
It looks dumb and feels more like an exploit than skill like this video show: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0</a>
Btw. you need really great skill to bind a script to your mouse or keyboard (whohoo, i know , no one here need something like bhop-scripts and never use one, bla)
In platformshooters like quake it was ok cause it fits with the jumpy gameplay, cs was more "realistic" and there it start to look dumb.
Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.
My personal opinion is that it looks dumb for marines to be bunny hopping. Skulks get bunny hopping which looks right and is fun. I would like for fades to get bunny hop back, but onos... no.
This isn't the case at all.
The movement skill and freedom isn't close to the level it used to be, which is a very poor design choice considering the game is based around mele combat.
I do, however, like skulk movement even without the wall-jumping right now. It works the way I expected, and getting Leap researched makes it even better due to the temporary movement speed increase you get from jumping repeatedly after performing Leap (thus negating the need to spam the ability).
Dont worry about it too much :). In ns2 if you really want speed, you get celerity, jump off downward sloping ramps, or use leap. Wall jump is kinda weak for speed boosting (even chaining it) so its actually more of a mechanism to get air and emulate leap tbh. So yea, most of skulk movement skill is actually just in using leap + air control. I like to fool myself that wall jumping is skillfull movement so i feel like a badass, but it really doesn't add alot in practice currently (in my experience anyway).
<!--QuoteBegin-Depara+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Depara)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Jumping around like idiots" doesn't work in a game like bf3 for the same reason that COD mechanics don't work in a game like Arma. It isn't about atmosphere but intended gameplay, balance, and intended degree of realistic emulation. Every explanation in a subjective based world is perfectly logical, but not every explanation is good for gameplay. For arguements sake, i could very well say that it makes sense to have super bunny marines because natural selection and survival of the fittest ensures that only marines with strong legs and jumping prowess survive.
Personally would love to see marine double jump back and removal/increased tolerance of the jump height reduction on consecutive jumps at the very least.
It looks dumb and feels more like an exploit than skill like this video show: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0</a>
Btw. you need really great skill to bind a script to your mouse or keyboard (whohoo, i know , no one here need something like bhop-scripts and never use one, bla)
In platformshooters like quake it was ok cause it fits with the jumpy gameplay, cs was more "realistic" and there it start to look dumb.
Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could have made the same argument about skiing back when it was just an exploit for tribes. Now tribes ascend, a modernized old school shooter, is entirely based off a movement glitch and is very popular and sucessful. It was embraced because it added skill, much like valve and the ns1 devs embraced bhopping and kept it at suitable restrictions for tfc/ns, much like id rolled with it and adapted variations of the mechanic for every quake sequel. Your argument holds no water.
The biggest barrier for most people is that they need a scroll wheel or a jump script to do it in NS, this was originally the case for tribes also, but this can be easily changed with proper jump programming. The fortress forever movement tutorial can teach anyone bunnyhopping in a half hour because the game eliminates jump timing and does an amazing job at teaching players how to use air control. Instead the devs have added wall jumping, which is even harder to get past the jump timing barrier because it's based off an arbitrary timing rather than instant AND you need to time instant jumps on the ground to keep the speed, all while reducing movement freedom and creativity. This really displays that the developers don't understand the fundamental problems and advantages of bunnyhopping, and really just made it harder and less fun.
It looks dumb and feels more like an exploit than skill like this video show: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0</a>
Btw. you need really great skill to bind a script to your mouse or keyboard (whohoo, i know , no one here need something like bhop-scripts and never use one, bla)
In platformshooters like quake it was ok cause it fits with the jumpy gameplay, cs was more "realistic" and there it start to look dumb.
Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using a video from a game that was designed without bunnyhopping in mind as an argument against including it in the largely identical sequel to a game that was designed with bunnyhopping in mind, doesn't really work.
Scripting or mousewheeling wasn't required for bunnyhopping in ns1, but it helped. NS2 could easily be designed to make script/mousewheel irrelevant however. This is not a valid argument against bunnyhopping.
Marines never had proper bunnyhopping, at least not since 2002, nor is anyone arguing that they should have it in NS2.
The current walljumping looks just as "dumb" as bunnyhopping. You could even say that the current walljumping is a stripped down bunnyhop, since the fastest way to move around the map is to constantly jump, even on flat surfaces. The difference is that there's no skill element to it -- you don't gain speed from using air control correctly for example, ruining what made the ns1 bunnyhopping a good mechanic in the first place.
The current walljumping suffers from the same problems as bunnyhopping, while providing fewer benefits to gameplay, which makes it pretty pointless.
Skulks had a lot of timing and speed bonus you could achieve in previous builds but now all you need to do is buy an upgrade called celerity which negates all need for skill based movement. You just hold W and go 200 MPH and are nearly impossible to hit. It will probably get fixed soon, but there is still some rewarding movement you can get from practicing the skulk. I can't say it is at the same level of NS1 though.
The fade is prolly the only class in the game that requires a lot of skill with movement. If you like to do cool moves and do very precise stuff use the fade.
Movement in general on the alien side requires skill... but I wouldn't call it skill-based movement. Skill-based movement is when there are different levels of players who have learned the most advanced and difficult movement techniques. It seems like a lot of games have strayed away from these amazing game mechanics. Think of cs 1.6 and quake and the movement you could achieve. It set you apart from other players. If you are asking if whether this game has that.... well it does, but only for 1-2 classes. Is it still fun without skill-based movement? Yes it is, but it levels the playing field for everyone else... so fun for some not so fun for others... it's a matter of opinion I guess.
I know people hated bunnyhoppin' in 1.6 usually because most people couldn't do it and complained when skilled players owned them with it.
I just checked out that tutorial and it's pretty awesome.
Maybe this is because I missed the days of Q1/Q2/HL1 and the whole bunny hopping thing but I really hate the idea that moving optimally should actually be difficult.
For aliens movement mechanics would fit I agree, maybe even multiple ones for the skulk etc. but being skilled at the game should really involve more being skilled at the game rather than being hamstrung by not having put hours into learning how to move around correctly.
IMO of course, as this thread shows people definitely disagree with me, and if that's how it goes I'll suck it up and play anyway.
the bunny hop discussions reminds me of the scene in The Patriot with Gibson hacking up the dude with a tomahawk
I do wish to see movement refined in NS2 as it lacks alot of the smoothness that NS1 had, which would go very far for improving the gameplay.
It looks dumb and feels more like an exploit than skill like this video show: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0</a>
Btw. you need really great skill to bind a script to your mouse or keyboard (whohoo, i know , no one here need something like bhop-scripts and never use one, bla)
In platformshooters like quake it was ok cause it fits with the jumpy gameplay, cs was more "realistic" and there it start to look dumb.
Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with DePARA on this. There is nothing skilled based in hopping around which was an error in a very old games engine. It was taken out of CS for a reason.
Why do marines even need it? Is armour, a selection of weapons, med pack spam and nano shield not enough against aliens who needs to get close to deal damage. Marine spam jump is bad enough without bringing the b word into the game. I am fine with the Skulks atm although I did prefer it when they had a cool down after each jump which meant you couldn't just rambo into a marine bouncing like a loon and made ambushes the tactic to use.
It looks dumb and feels more like an exploit than skill like this video show: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEyIGLRqW0</a>
Btw. you need really great skill to bind a script to your mouse or keyboard (whohoo, i know , no one here need something like bhop-scripts and never use one, bla)
In platformshooters like quake it was ok cause it fits with the jumpy gameplay, cs was more "realistic" and there it start to look dumb.
Imagine BF3 with 64 players jumping around like idiots. Atmosphere=zero
Same in NS2. Skulks have some walljump-meachanics to gain little speed boost. This is ok.
This fit to the jumpy gameplay a skulk has (same as mentioned about quake above)
But never, really never, give the same mechanic to the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the point of phoon's videos is to make fun of CS players who have no self-awareness or respect for good FPS games whatsoever.
I can name quite a few contemporary shooter games that aren't realistic, but don't feature any Quake-style movement mechanics. I'm not sure what you mean by 'jumpy' but it seems like a really subjective thing (is counterstrike 'jumpy'? is warsow? TF2? halo?)
Also, it's not as simple as scripting the act of bunnyhopping. Please go to youtube and search 'defrag', watch a few videos and then write down a mockup of the script that performs them. You can also search for 'hal9000' or 'cpma' and do the same. If it seems like the things players do in those videos cannot be scripted, it's because the players were performing things that depend on dynamic game situations (opponents' positions/choices etc) or extremely complicated trickjumping maps, which is exactly what makes skill-based movement exciting. High-level Quake players who have great movement aren't dedicating their time to holding down mouse3 and running a script. I have yet to see anyone who actually plays defrag/cpma come out and say there is nothing skillful about movement in those games, because it would be the most absurd thing to ever happen on this planet. Give me a break!
It's clear that quite a few people are wishing for the movement mechanics of NS1 to make a comeback in NS2 (take a look at TrueVeritas' thread for a good example video), and it's not because they're clinging to a silly exploit or a nonsense game design trend. It's because that style of movement is fun and creates memorable game experiences. The absence of it creates fewer memorable experiences, because nothing put 'in its place' ever seems to compare.
<!--quoteo(post=1945386:date=Jun 20 2012, 06:46 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 20 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agree with DePARA on this. There is nothing skilled based in hopping around which was an error in a very old games engine. It was taken out of CS for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was taken out of CS because it absolutely does not fit that game at all. It was left in numerous games on the same engine, because it did fit them. How experienced are you with movement in TFC, AG, SI, NS and so on? Those are all successful, historically-significant Half-Life mods that hinge on Quake-style movement.
So, there we have it. The same old bhop arguments everyone repeats without understanding the subject:
<ul><li>"It's just an engine bug!" - tons of people like it and it was deliberately put in more games than it was taken out of, even if it was <i>originally</i> an unintended side effect</li><li>"All you need to do is script it" - no, that's simply not true and there are a bazillion counterexamples</li></ul>
Feel free to stop posting these things in threads about movement. Thanks!
From what I can gather from low FPS gameplay, the forums and the overall design in general, the difference shows in how they're built into the games.
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NS1 movement mechanics are inherited all the way from the basic way how the engine handles acceleration, turning, momentum and all that. It's a very consistent and in some ways even natural feeling system once you get inside the mechanics. It blends extremely well with everything else in the game and separate features like alien leap and blink give you alternative means on how to negociate with the system rather than creating a separate implementation of their own.
NS2 movement mechanics are more like single features. There is a movemenet code without any relation to skill based movement and then the movement features got added on top of that existing system. As a result the movement has less flow, rhythm and precision. You certainly can develop a routine of spamming away the movement abilities, but I doubt you're easily going to develop similar kind of feel where you almost uncannily use the movement skills to make small adjustments and adaptations on whatever movement related task you're doing inside the game regardless of the actual unit or character you're playing.
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So... If you were able and willing go through all the inaccessibility and challenge in figuring out how NS1 movement actually works and fell in love with it, I doubt NS2 (so far) is as responsive or satisfying. If you never tried NS1 or never got the hang of the system - which is a pretty damn good argument in some ways -, you might still have some nice time with NS2 system (at least some people seem to claim that!).
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The NS2 movement features also have some arguably nasty design in them, but I think other people are way more qualified at discussing that than I am.
... after all bunny hoppi...err I mean <a-hem> 'skill based movement' is the only skill factor in the good FPS titles, right ?
It isnt intuitive, in other words you cant learn it by playing the game, you need to read up or get told about how it works then practise it until you can perform the manouver easily... but a player who does not go out of thier way to learn this unintuitive skill will never pick it up by simply mastering the game itself.
In effective it is simply exploiting a popular glitch.
A skill you learn by playing the game is fine, but when you need to study the game engine to abuse movement mechanics to gain an edge over others , this is what they call exploiting.
The reason its popular is its simply an edge where players can gain over newer players and 'wtf bbqpwn noobs' to increase e-peen.
Pros use it as they have no choice, they need every edge to keep up with the other pro's...but they would still be pro's if the mechanic was removed suddenly, whereas many of the noobstompers would suddenly find themselve a lot less capable without thier advantage.
Proof ? Watch NS2 clan matches and tell me there is no skill in NS2... go on tell me there is no skill shown in those clan matches at all... seriously , no skill right ?
Counter-strike source -> movement is easy and once you've got it down you can't get any better.
Counter-strike 1.6 -> takes time and practice to learn how to move effectively, and you're always improving on how you move the longer you play. Even though I played this game for many many many many years I was still mastering the game mechanics.
<b>I don't really care if bunny hopping is removed from the game</b>, bunny hopping was never in competitive 1.6 games and at lan tournaments you couldn't even use the console to do the mouse script. I just don't want natural selection 2 to be something easy like cod or bf3 ETC because the gameplay becomes dull and boring and I usually end up quitting games like this. Sure, the game becomes much more accessible like modern warfare BUT <b>its a lot less rewarding the longer you play.</b>
Only remotely fun lifeform is the skulk imo, atleast with the walljump you can improve your speed a bit but even then you get the speed up easily and then its capped, thus limiting the player from developing better timing/usage of the map.
With anything else you pretty much click/hold a button and you hit a speedcap. Really fun and rewarding.