Free hydras need to go.

Champlo0 · June 2012

Give hydras a cap of 1. Only allow more to be placed after the first one matures. If it isn't already make it mature in about 50 seconds.

IeptBarakat · June 2012

How about limit the amount of hydras per gorge at the start of the game to 1, and let the commander research additional hydras. Giving a similar situation like an offense chamber in ns1.

MisterNubs · June 2012

Free hydras are balanced by the fact that you are taking an alien player out of the game by forcing them to stay a life form that does nothing to help the team after 5 minutes in the game just to keep his hydras alive. There is a reason why people ###### any time there is more than one gorge on the team. During marine game, I mean late game, the only reason why people are going gorge is for bile bomb, not hydras.

botchiball · June 2012

I got a question for you guys:
Do you think each lifeform should have its own purpose, or is each lifeform simply "holding the line" until the Onos pop and overrun the marines?

Personally I believe in the former, but the dev's seem to be thinking along the lines of the later.

The POINT of having Hydras is to provide defense right? (Lets not argue if a forward Hydra is defensive or not)
<span style="color:#98FB98">
The way hydras used to work - a Gorge would be devoting their PRes to the team, building defenses all across the map which were permanent, and losing a Gorge is a big deal because you're wasting 10 PRes to re-evolve rather than spending that PRes building a Hydra.
</span><span style="color:#ADD8E6">
With the way hydras work now - a Gorge is only devoting 10 PRes to the team, and then they have nothing else to spend their PRes on except a higher lifeform; meanwhile, they are limited to 3 Hydras ( = less defenses ) which I believe are less accurate then they used to be and don't seem to do any more damage, and should the Gorge die or change classes, those Hydras die off; losing a Gorge isn't a big deal, it just means they will go Onos a bit late. A Gorge with 100 PRes is considered a lack of an Onos, doesn't that seem wrong to anyone else?
</span>
The thing that really gnaws at me is not that I view these changes as bad, its that I see Devs and players justifying these changes by saying "well what other game out there has it where you have to pay to use your abilities?"

...So... your justification is that since no one else has done it this way before, that it simply can't work this way in another game? To me this sounds rather stupid (not be offensive or to start bashing people, but it does), Natural Selection is ALL ABOUT doing it a new way. I can't even think of a game that pushes for asymmetry of two entirely different teams. When's the last time you saw anyone arguing about having a trade-off in weapon power versus versatility (speaking of the grenade launcher)? I don't know about you guys, but when I look out there all I see are more and more EPIC games where its all about doing everything faster and bigger and less intelligently. The line up of games coming out at E3 are almost all prequels or sequels because companies are afraid that "new things are bad".... /endrant.

All I'm saying is this: the old system worked, and it worked WELL. I loved Gorge and I never cried about losing my PRes to the team, that was what the class was about. The new Gorge feels gutted in that it lacks both defensive and offensive power, its still slow, its still low health. Yes its gotten Bile Bomb back (thank you btw), but it still needs support from other players to be of any use (note that it used to have more function without being in the fighting). The same cannot be said of the other classes. <- This is what I look at when I see something is wrong. Who cares if other games don't do what you do? Do what works for your game.

And one last thing, I'm not saying that everything should go back to the way it was - even though it may sound like it. I'm saying that the way it works now is not good, that I would prefer a different way, and that the way it used to work was better.

_Necro_ · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jun 18 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I got a question for you guys:
Do you think each lifeform should have its own purpose, or is each lifeform simply "holding the line" until the Onos pop and overrun the marines?</div>

Ironically free hydras are supporting the former. Most people are complaining about them, because they don't want to adapt to a complete new play style of the gorge. The hydras are a weapon, an ability of the gorge. Not a static defense. This times are gone. If you would try to adapt to this new game play, you would see that it works. And is also not overpowered.

Free hydras make the gorge to an unique area denial unit, without forcing him to one exact location or to play this class the whole round. It is also in no way a class that you only play until you have enough res for onos. The gorge has its place even in late game as healer and anti building artillery. The advantage is, that you CAN go onos now later when you want. You are not forced to play gorge the whole round anymore. This is a plus and saying that he is only useful until you have enough res for another class is not an argument its an overstatement.

The gorge is fragile, so he uses his hydras to battle. He lures marines into them. Or he builds them as defense for a little healing outpost, where he can heal to other aliens attacking near him.

Also it was stated, that it is not only less fun fighting against structures instead of players, it also is not rewarding, because you do no damage to the alien economy killing them. This is right and it is the whole point. You are not supposed to fight the hydras. You are supposed to fight the gorge. Hunt him, kill him before his hydras kill you and then you only have to clean them up. Instead of fighting static defense, you are supposed to fight players and free hydras contribute to this. Hydras for pRes would be an incentive for battle vs static defense, because you damage the economy.

I think, people only have to realize the new role of the hydras since they are free. Including that they are not really a static defense anymore. They are a dynamic ability/weapon of the gorge, used to being able of fighting marines and area denial.

botchiball · June 2012

@_Necro_: I'm not trying to pick on you, but you've brought up some great points that I'm tearing apart below.

I really want to play the games that you guys are playing, the games where Hydras seem to matter. In the games I play, Hydras are a minor deterrent to a noob Marine. For anyone who knows what their doing, circumventing a Hydra garden is a simple matter - and even more so when a Comm is assisting. Essentially "running" seems to be the perfect mechanic for avoiding Hydra fire.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"I got a question for you guys:
Do you think each lifeform should have its own purpose, or is each lifeform simply "holding the line" until the Onos pop and overrun the marines?
Ironically free hydras are supporting the former."</span></i>
- How? My point was that as a Gorge you aren't spending your PRes on anything, and that by limiting the Gorge to 3 Hydras which die after Gorge dies, the separate purpose of having a Gorge to assist in base building is reduced in the process - he is a healer/future onos.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"The hydras are a weapon, an ability of the gorge. Not a static defense."</span></i>
- An interesting argument, which has been said by multiple people; and I truly don't understand this. Yes placing a Hydra is an ability of the Gorge, but the Hydra itself is a static defense is it not? The Hydra is not offensive by the simple fact that you cannot place it in a room full of Marines and have it start firing, it must be built.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"The gorge is fragile, so he uses his hydras to battle. He lures marines into them. Or he builds them as defense for a little healing outpost, where he can heal to other aliens attacking near him."</span></i>
- Again, this screams static defense to me. Also look to the top to see how effective I see this tactic as. The only way Hydras help is that while another Kharaan team member is messing with the Marines, a stray hit from a Hydra may actually assist in killing the marine.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"Free hydras make the gorge to an unique area denial unit, without forcing him to one exact location or to play this class the whole round."</span></i>
-I have to disagree, agree, and agree to this statement (but not with it).

Disagree: Free Hydras don't make the Gorge unique, nor do they assist in area denial (any more than the previous version of Hydras). As pointed out many times, the point of free Hydras is to the bring the Gorge "into the fold" of classes who don't pay for their abilities. Gorges do not provide area denial in the games I play, they play speed bump for the marines as they mop their boot. "Area denial" role is filled by the Lerk as far as I've seen - fast flight, spore clouds sprayed and flight out toward Kharaan associates, the Lerk is much better at confusing and disrupting Marines in an area then any Gorge I have ever seen... ever.

Agree: Free Hydras don't force a Gorge to stay in one place, you're right. However, PRes Hydras didn't either. What PHydras did was allow a single Gorge to deploy defenses across an entire map. Granted it was slower, but a Gorge would almost never place in the front lines -> because PHydras would just die in the front without support. The same is true now, but since Gorgie is now limited to 3, he must spread more thin to cover - and so he is actually limied to one point At One Time. (which is bad)

Agree: FHydras don't force Gorge to stay Gorge. Again, you're right, though I'm debating whether PHydras did.. I'm remembering that if I went Gorge it was because I wanted to - not because I was forced to - so I chose to be Gorge that entire game. If I or someone else were simply "Going Gorge" to heal something, then we would spend 10 PRes just like now. So I guess the only benefit is that as an interim Gorge I can still drop Hydras quickly for a little added defenses?

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"It is also in no way a class that you only play until you have enough res for onos. The gorge has its place even in late game as healer and anti building artillery."
" You are not forced to play gorge the whole round anymore. This is a plus and saying that he is only useful until you have enough res for another class is not an argument its an overstatement."</span></i>
- You may think that, and I may think that, but what I said was that the Gorge is considered a lack of Onos -> I mean on Public servers. I have been told many times (as the only Gorge) that I should go Onos to help with an assault while another player goes Gorge to heal (which no one ever does btw). My point is that a Gorge should be JUST as useful as an Onos, or a Fade, or any other class - so that if I choose to play said class, it doesn't matter if I don't want to be an Onos later. i.e. Voluntary PRes dump to team, or use for PRes other than higher lifeform.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"Also it was stated, that it is not only less fun fighting against structures instead of players, it also is not rewarding, because you do no damage to the alien economy killing them. This is right and it is the whole point. You are not supposed to fight the hydras. Hydras for pRes would be an incentive for battle vs static defense, because you damage the economy."</span></i>
- I'm pretty sure you're proving why PHydras are a good thing here.. but it is rather late and I'm tired. Correct me if I'm wrong, but damaging the Kharaan Economy is a good thing right? That is what the Marines should be trying to do, hit the Kharaan Players/Buildings/Economy into the dirt until it crumbles and burns... right?

- On another note - the "is it Fun?" note - I really don't see how two Hydra systems are any different... because the FHydra Gorge is limited to 3, they can't spam 5 or 10 in one room anymore? Its still battle vs. Static Defense - even if you kill the Gorge first. And should you not kill the Gorge, he's just going to move up his FHydras and continue his pressure - because all that has changed is that the Gorge is more mobile and less spread out.

- There is another interesting point in there that has been cropping up all over the place - one which I agree with too. And while I think Hakenspit had a great point: (QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 14 2012, 10:00 PM) "Sure fighting against hydras is not fun...but neither is fighting against sentries or sieges.") there is another I want to make:
If shooting a Hydra is boring, how fun do you think healing one is? Making out with a Hydra while you're trying to keep your butt from being shot at is not really a fun game. OK, maybe the first time in a dark closet when the Gorge got stuck with the Hydra in spin the bottle and the Gorge kinda enjoyed it, but then the door burst open and the lights came on and the machine gun bullets started flying past and.. wait.. I think I'm confusing my stories.
Point is, try thinking of the whole situation. If "fighting automated defenses" is really so damn boring, then why is the Gorge being given more and more tasks that are EVEN MORE BORING (they're boring), like building a hive (its boring). Which as a Gorge is not only expected of you, but you are stupid if you don't do it. Its still boring. So incredibly boring.

People using the "I don't want to fight automated defenses" argument.. have you ever played a game that wasn't multi-player.. ever? I think I would have trouble naming all the games which I found fun, because they all had challenging AI. If its boring, then the AI doesn't have the tools it needs to challenge you. Maybe a Hydra should do something other than "Pew Pew" a few feet behind you. Maybe sentries should as well. Just throwing that out there.

<i><span style="color:#ADD8E6">"I think, people only have to realize the new role of the hydras since they are free. Including that they are not really a static defense anymore. They are a dynamic ability/weapon of the gorge, used to being able of fighting marines and area denial."</span></i>
- So recapping what I've said above:
Hydras are still static defenses.
They are ineffective vs intelligence (and/or teamwork).
They don't actually provide any benefit other than to provide minor defenses in the room which the Gorge is currently in.

Why isn't there a thread about how to make fighting hydras (or turrets, god-forbid) more interesting to fight?

AurOn2 · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Because you shouldn't have to spend res to use your own ability.

It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"</div>

Ability? It's a structure
You can't compare a STRUCTURE being free, to SWAPPING WEAPONS.
You have no interaction with the hydra
SO HOW ON EARTH can it possible be an ability?
And by that logic. we could call all commander structures/research etc ABILITIES
Cos it's about as ridiculous as "pay 10 res to switch your axe!"
No.
How do you go to a structure and say "You're an ability"?
Might aswell make all the structures free as they are just abilities.

P.S edited O.P
Took out the slobber, bad example of me and beer and forums.

elodea · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jun 15 2012, 10:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Because you shouldn't have to spend res to use your own ability.

It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"</div>

So should shotguns and grenade launchers and other assorted marine weapons cost energy? They are player abilities after all just like an axe. I dont buy this seemingly infallible golden rule that player abilities should cost energy arguement one bit. Yes ofcourse its silly to suddenly change shotguns to costing energy, or deducting res every time a skulk bites but for reasons other than simply "player abilities should not cost res". You have to look at how the mechanic works, how it behaves, how its used, its effectiveness and deduce a balanced cost as well as tradeoffs.

And as rantology and others have stated, even if we concede a blanket rule that player abilities should not cost res (for whatever reason), hydra's are not player abilities in the same sense as bite, or blink, or spit, or swipe for the same reason that sentry turrets are not considered player abilities.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball)</div><div class='quotemain'>Do you think each lifeform should have its own purpose, or is each lifeform simply "holding the line" until the Onos pop and overrun the marines?</div>
Exactly right. Hydra's should be meaningful, and not just something you spam to 'hold off marines' untill you can afford Onos to win games by abusing stomp. It just totally trivializes game flow. The same can be said of sentry turrets.

It gets boring fast and makes for a dull spectator sport, something UWE should be wary of if they have any hopes of turning ns2 into an e-sport.

NEX9 · June 2012

I was under the impression they wre limited as for what ever reason they create more server load, above norm above the sentrys any ways. Being built on walls. Also makes it possible to put more in a area. And with the abundance of Rez. servers were choking.

I think it's. Something in there detection algarythum, the fact they have two. ones a large area to play the enemy near by animation. It's prolly scanning and detecting repeatedly on milli second interval. The other is oh ###### marine in line of sight shoot algarythum also checking regularly seams to be about half a second on that one.

Removing them from having a infestation requirement gives the gorge more freedom to use them early game yes. But with the buggy mini cyst messing every thing up. Something had to go. I'd of preferred the mini cyst fixed maybe tweaked a little. I feel one or two Rez cost is fine. Stops me spamming them happy as Larry. Put a bit more strat into thinking were to place them. The new limit is way to harsh. But I can see temp gorges on a 16v16 going temp gorge. And making a mess. Limiting 8 to a area like in NS one is viable but I think this requires a range check algarythum. Every time the gorge pulls the thing out. It's not a big script running but still. Optamisation is the desired goal.

If di was spread just a little more efficiently or some of that power was put back into the gorges hands in some way or another. I wouldn't be to shamed as a permer gorge to spend one or two Rez have a limit on them per area and or a limit per map. And have them stay on creep. But for the love of god buff them wouldn't need as many if ya did.

In NS one it was like wow he just ninjaed past that guys oc's...while being med spammed that's epic a game changer a achievement jumping a wall of three-6 Oc's. Now the marine just walks strait past like they arnt there, no com support I am spitting at his as best I can he just keeps going. It's not until he's passed 12-15 of them shooting at him constantly they take him down. And in that tiny all he needs is a med pack.

Look at it like a skulk. Two bites and a para takes down a 00 rine. Why shouldn't two gorge spits and three hydra spikes.

And serious hydras don't die when gorge dies. But they and the clogs do if I go gorge again after death or if I go skulk then change back to gorge. I could half see the use with hyper mutation to refresh the structures but damn it's annoying.

Up the area limit of hydras to five, kill the enemy near by script or make it run the check every 10 seconds. Kill the animation enemy near by make it play once every 5 seconds, not Constantly spamming the animation.
Build on infestation. Or on clogs. But clogs don't need infestation. Up the hydra per player to 10. Set the lvl limit of hydras at 30. Set the hydra damage so 2 gorge spits 5 hydra spikes kills a 00 marine. Scale damage for hydras on infestation with hive. So they with a gorge and a skulk putting in effort to block a area don't get rofl stomped by a single 3/3marine. And it brings the skill back into ninjaing. Don't make them all die if I die or if I change out of gorge then back into gorge. Give them a 1-2 Rez cost, 1 Rez clogs. Dropping a new one over your limit refreshes the first one dropped or add recycle own hydras only.

Why is 30 a map limit a arbitrary number for map limit. Why ten per player.
Think of legue of legends. Players spread out down each corse way to hold a line. A pipe if you will.

Average hive location or imediant vercinity in NS has 3 pipes or three access routes in and out. A single permer gorge could hold one, defend or slow down another. As long as they are a good distance apart. Two permer gorges. Or the odd temp gorge or com. Could secure the hive room and or the third way in or out. Five hydras each

Two competitive players gorging up defenses temp permer or for bottle necking and defending them as a different life form. With the 30 being the end goal allows for two hives defended or a extra two lines of defence down each of the corridors 4 possible choke points, minus two secure hive rooms. To secure a third hive room would mean dropping a choke point or passage way into a hive. Which leads to a strategic weak link in the chain. And would require the gorges to move their structures around to keep marines guessing. Take care of them all. So he's not sitting fat at one main area. Surrounded by hydras. Which means he's still dedicating res to the team. But he's not being wasteful. allows ninjaing or death of hydras if gorge leaves area to go repair others.

If you look at each choke point as a res node room. That's three hives and three Rez that has deterring defence, and or early warning. But still need to be baby sat, late game. By three players, two locations each, or six players one area each just over 1/3rd of a team 16v16. Not dedicated to the job but mindful of the situation. Which seams to be 1/4 of your team in a pug need to have a clue, as two areas are actively patrolled hives and two gorges can't sit at 4 choke point locations. And that 1 or two pug newbs. Can't ruin it for others.

NEX9 · June 2012

If you really really really must have them. With out a Rez cost. Perhaps they can reduce the gorges total energy adrenalin by x amount while that hydra is alive. If it dies his energy cap raises again. Call it a part of his mental capacity is using hive mind links to his hydras the reason they know how to attack and shoot. At max gorge hydras. He can only spit out one bile bomb has to wait for energy to recharge or two spits. Or a couple of heal sprays.

I am a permer gorge and even I don't want them for free. Not at the cost of limit of three with their current damage health.

Rise · June 2012

They could tie the number of hydras available per gorge to the number of hives owned. That might be annoying for the gorge though to be stuck at one hydra.

AurOn2 · June 2012

Rise. Honestly.
You don't get the point.
That wouldn't discourage the current problem.
Do you know what hydras used to be used for?
Defenses.
What are they used for now?
Not that.
Limiting hydras in any way is just plain stupid.
it just turns the gorge into a static class that is in no way unique.and in combat he is too busy healing his hydra(s) to heal other players Mock-support unit.
The simplest and best solution to fix this problem is to solve the role of the hydra.
Make it a defensive STRUCTURE again.
this made the gorge the Defense manager Aswell as a support unit.
As opposed to a Sheet, offensive, weak, Temporal ABILITY which the gorge placed not for defense, but for temporary offense.
Stupid idea really.

Yuuki · June 2012

I wrote a lengthy argument about free hydras with some other guys, it's not really useful but I paste it here :

<b>Context</b> : In build 206 hydras were changed from costing ten personal res to being free and hard capped to three per gorge at one hive.

Possible goals justifying this change: Â

Goal 1. Having more gorges on the field. Make gorges more meaningful in the game.
Goal 2. â€œWaiting for pres to build more hydra is boringâ€ complaint.
Goal 3. Having more hydras on the map.
Goal 4. Allow gorge to save P.res to go fade or onos. Contradicts Goal 1.

Arguments against this change:

<b>A1.</b> Goes against core mechanics of resources based rts, where you gather resources to get more units, buildings and tech. Dropping hydras is not anymore a real commitment or choice as they are free. Killing hydras is meaningless for marines since they donâ€™t cost anything to the alien team and can be re-dropped easily. Killing hydras cost medpacks and ammos to the marine team, and leave marines vulnerable. As a result the best strategy for marines will probably be to ignore the hydras completely, undermining Goal 1.

Illustrations:

"In one of our scrims, the aliens dropped hydras in crevice to protect the resource tower, after suicide-killing them, one of our team member went back to crevice only to find the hydras rebuilt."

â€œI don't feel like my structures are even worth protecting when they cost 0 PRes, why risk dying staying around to heal them when I can just run back over once the marines are gone and re-drop them? I don't feel like i'm contributing anything because i'm not spending my PRes to help the team.â€ (official forums)

Counter-argument to A1: Â â€œHydra are not buildings they are abilities! Would you like to spend pres each time you use blink ?â€

The argument is fallacious, hydras are buildings and AI units. Unlike abilities they work on their own once built. They do not require any interaction with the player to work. One can can also convince himself that hydras are structure by reading the hydra.lua source code file.

Proposed solution to A1: Â â€œMake the gorge cost 30 pres.â€

This solution removes the free hydra completely, and actually makes you pay for them. You pay 10 pres for the gorge and 20 pres for the hydras. It reverts the discussed change. Therefore it should be compared to the solution of making each hydra cost pres again.
In comparison, this solution is poor. It forces to buy three hydras and to build them (â€œyou have to drop your 3 hydras since you already payed for themâ€) and effectively introduce a tying sale mechanism (â€œcanâ€™t buy a gorge without the hydrasâ€). Thus, it reduces the number of choices considerably and delays the gorge, undermining Goal 1.

<b>A2.</b> Allow the whole alien team to gorge and spamfully drop free hydras. This is an undesirable exploit.

Proposed solution to A2: â€œHydras will die when the player who dropped them un-gorge.â€

This solution forces the player to stay gorge if he wants to have a lasting impact with his structures. Itâ€™s especially problematic in public games where you canâ€™t rely on someone to stay gorge. It might not solve the exploit of whole team going gorge and spamming free hydras, allowing to safely gather res for higher life forms or tech.

Illustration: Â â€œMy biggest complaint with the gorge stuff is in pub games when a gorge fortifies an area, or cysts to a res node for you, and then halfway through the game decides to switch class. Now suddenly my cyst chain is broken and my defenses are gone. I cannot blame a guy for not wanting to play gorge the whole time either.â€ (official forums)

<b>A3.</b> Promotes high hydra count, since once a player has evolved to gorge, there is no reason not to drop hydra. This is troublesome for several reasons, but mainly because fighting static defense, or AI units, is not as fun as fighting players (that's the basic idea of multiplayer games).

Counter-argument to A3: â€œHaving hydras costing pres promotes high hydra count late game when pres is overflowing. Free hydras solve this problemâ€.

The argument is unsound. The mechanism that limits hydra count late game is the hard cap (three hydra per gorge), not the fact that hydra are free. The hard cap as nothing specific to free hydras, and could be applied to pres hydras equally (although itâ€™s an unattractive mechanism in both cases). The fact that free hydra require to introduce a hard cap mechanism shows that free hydras do promote high hydra count.

Nakorson · June 2012

What i have noticed in the last games is that the hydras are way to weak, the marines ignore them and just run past them. And it is getting worse the longer the game lasts. The marines get armor upgrades but my hydras stay weak as they are if i had the chance to defend a RT or Hive location with them they are completly gone by then. If i could at least build more of them in the later game to compensate that the marines get armor upgrades, but no i have to keep redroping my few hydras if they get killed or if i want to "defend" a other location.

I loved playing gorge, but now it has become pretty useless. If i go gorge now it's to help grow the early rts or a hive then i go to the front line and heal as much as i can untill i die. Most times i don't regorge because i die way to easily for "just" being healbot near the frontline.

I'd say either increase the number of hydras or make them cost pres again but buff them.

SkiT · June 2012

On the gather competitive mod, gorge and hydras are nice. They cost res (10), they are more stronger, and they stay when u die or going skulk or others forms. I think the devs need to considerate this.

botchiball · June 2012

Yuuki.. that.. brings a tear to my eye. A beautiful argument if ever I saw one. Barely even matters that I agree with you, its the WAY you said it that I like so much.

Xarius · June 2012

The biggest problem with the current hydra implementation is that:

Gorges can't cost only 10 p.res AND have effective hydras for free (By effective, I would use sentries as a comparison), this completely flouts the game's RTS side of things.
As a result, hydras on gorges are always going to be imbalanced, either they're going to be too good for being free on a 10 p.res investment or they're going to be nigh useless as a defensive structure. (Which then hurts alien gameplay, which needs some sort of defensive structure to maintain map control)

In addition, and especially in a scenario where hydras are too strong, they soak up marine damage and attention, yet can be IMMEDIATELY and at no cost replaced by the gorge in question. It's no different than if mines at 15 p.res allowed the marine to place 3 mines which then could be replaced at any time. (Essentially giving you infinite mines if you stay alive, per 3 at a time) This is incredibly poor gameplay.

Lastly, in their current implementation, a player is forced to remain gorge for defensive play, where as for example marines can simply put mines or T.res and contribute to defense WITHOUT needing an active player devoted to it. This is BIG.

Putting hydras on P.res again is not the only solution though, there's some more complex ways to address the issue:
- One player suggested giving the commander the option to 'buy out' hydras, this would make them permanent and even boost their effectiveness (Since they now properly have a T.res cost)
- COOLDOWNS, if anything, hydra placement should probably go on cooldowns, this way a gorge can not simply replace his hydras perpetually. (This would fix the current issue that is a single or 2 gorges locking down corridor with clogs + hydras and just continuously replace those hydras every time a marine gets to kill a hydra)
- Have matured hydras be better, and last longer when the gorge dies/goes something else. (Here 'time' would be a balance factor, instead of resource cost).
- Fix the gorge's battle performance, by making the base gorge better/sturdier. This should happen regardless, the reason why people are so fixated on hydras is because it's all the gorge has got, which is pretty sad for a supposed 'combat engineer' class.

But make no mistake, in their current implementation they ARE an issue, there's absolutely no denying that. (Which is not to say they necessarily need to go back to costing p.res)

_Necro_ · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 22 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Putting hydras on P.res again is not the only solution though, there's some more complex ways to address the issue:
- One player suggested giving the commander the option to 'buy out' hydras, this would make them permanent and even boost their effectiveness (Since they now properly have a T.res cost)
- COOLDOWNS, if anything, hydra placement should probably go on cooldowns, this way a gorge can not simply replace his hydras perpetually. (This would fix the current issue that is a single or 2 gorges locking down corridor with clogs + hydras and just continuously replace those hydras every time a marine gets to kill a hydra)
- Have matured hydras be better, and last longer when the gorge dies/goes something else. (Here 'time' would be a balance factor, instead of resource cost).
- Fix the gorge's battle performance, by making the base gorge better/sturdier. This should happen regardless, the reason why people are so fixated on hydras is because it's all the gorge has got, which is pretty sad for a supposed 'combat engineer' class.</div>

^ Whoa! THIS! Especially the first point. tRes for structures. Allows the gorge to save his pRes for his own choices AND you don't even need the "hydra-death-if-gorge-changes-lifeform" or the 3 per gorge cap.

Static defense should cost tRes and not the pRes of one player who has to sacrifice himself to play nothing else as gorge that round. I think this could be the solution.

Every other thing mentioned here is just a "But I'm like playing gorge the whole round, so let them cost pRes" vs. "I like it not, make them free."

botchiball · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jun 19 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Ability? It's a structure
You can't compare a STRUCTURE being free, to SWAPPING WEAPONS.
You have no interaction with the hydra
SO HOW ON EARTH can it possible be an ability?
And by that logic. we could call all commander structures/research etc ABILITIES
Cos it's about as ridiculous as "pay 10 res to switch your axe!"
No.
How do you go to a structure and say "You're an ability"?
Might aswell make all the structures free as they are just abilities.

P.S edited O.P
Took out the slobber, bad example of me and beer and forums.</div>
Thought of this when I first read this thread, but only recently got off my lazy butt to make it. Enjoy!
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/gorgeabilitynow.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5483/gorgeabilitynow.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>

Uploaded with <a href="http://imageshack.us" target="_blank">ImageShack.us</a>

Tweadle · July 2012

I always thought Ironhorse was into whips.

Benson · July 2012

+1 to hydras having a trade off. they are what makes the gorge fun and useful, otherwise he just fortifies 1 area (3 hydras can barely do even that), and then becomes a heal bot untill he gets bored and uses his recources gathered from simply waiting around at his gorgefort to go onos and the team loses part of their defences.

Let the gorge fortify all alien controlled areas. They'd work even better now that infestation goes up walls and ceilings by default. 2 hydras and a whip would hold an area better then 3 hydras and a bunch o clogs, imo

Yuuki · July 2012

Awesome drawing :D

VoodooHex · July 2012

As a gorge fan I would definitely like to see some hydra and clog buffs. What about making the hydras cost Pres again, increase their damage and maybe durability, increase the hydra amount by 3 per hive placed, keep the current 10 clog amount, but increase their size so gorges can wall off 2 areas instead of 1 or 1&1/2.

Or maybe give gorges the ability to spend a higher amount of Pres on special gorge chamber which could give the recommended buffs above.

-Azona- · July 2012

Permnament Pres hydra where more fun, and more usefull.

No one played a gorge was forced to play gorge, you could go gorge and make defenses for your team because you like to.

Current state gorge is ###### boring, you need to be gorge to keep your crappy defenses alive, all you do as gorge stick your maulth in ars of onos and heals them.

Hydra's are weak, only kill marines when you bile bomb there armor away.

Gorge used to be lot of fun, cut off arears with defenses even though still easy to gernade away or arc away.

only thing thats fun of gorge now is bile bomb the marine base to ash and run away hard if marines sees you, and you have to run hard because hydra dont hit or hurt for ######, spit is crapy to hit with and heal spray dont damage a marine much at all.

Gorges are plain boring sins hydra and mini cysts chanced, I liked mini cysts it gave me feeling I was helping commander expanding to an arear.

oh yeah limits are always crap, limit hydra are like Free to play game where you cant chat, trade, invite or do thing x once a day and those pay to win dont got it, its not free to play if you have to pay to be any good and its bad concept as well.

Benson · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jul 7 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>oh yeah limits are always crap</div>

I bielive this is the reason a hard cap on ARCs has never been implemented.

I would rather have a slowly growing army of any unit that costs res than have a limit on free structures

The only limiting factor is a resource based game should be resources.

---------

Also, agree with VoodooHex about maybe an unlockable building that buffs gorge structures (mini-chamber with buffs based on types of hives controlled), one that could even make hydras and clogs permanent in it's area of effect (best of both worlds?), thus allowing the player to switch lifeforms without worrying about losing defence in an area, but keeping hydras as a free ability

Tweadle · July 2012

It's like the ultimate bad combination of hard caps and free structures in a resource based game that needs more res sinks because everything is spent on lifeforms :(

AurOn2 · July 2012

^this!
Hydras should be a res dump, not ###### free, it's stupid, it needs to go. The end.
Once again, my point applies, It is being treated like an ABILITY, how many abilities allow you to place a structure that ATTACKS things? oh wait.. none of them.
It was the only personal resource dump that aliens had, now i can onl reall have any reason to go as one life form. ONOS. fade and lerk are irelevent, as skulk is just as powerful and is much more free.

<span style="color:#FF8C00">Don't dodge the swear filter.
-Align</span>

JuCCi · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jun 14 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Because you shouldn't have to spend res to use your own ability.

It's about as ridiculous as "Pay 10 Res to switch to your Axe!"</div>

It's not a ability tho.... It's a weapon. Just like a marine has to buy a shot gin and stuff. Or marines have to buy turrets. A ability is heal spray and belly slide.

internetexplorer · July 2012

All the other "abilities" that permanently add something to the map (mines being the only other one) cost res.

Price · August 2012

<b>I don't see a problem, hydras are the most useless weapon in ns2 beta right now.</b>
I see marines bypass them like if there cysts, no damage (did they have a big delay?).
So people who are complaining or crying here are just angry/jealous the hydras are free, i mean as marine i NEVER EVER had a problem with hydras, only if i am marine with a jetpack and try to rush a hive, but 2 seconds later, the hydras are dead because of 1 nade...
And spamming hydras is impossible too, building cost energy, growing cost energy, you have to heal perm. to build them up.
Every alien player who im talking to, aggree that hydras are useless in ns2 right now, also you have to stay gorge to keep them alive.

I did a short<u><b> video</b></u> to proof how useless hydras are...
<a href="http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7005/rsxofiodvrepgfllbuitsu.mp4" target="_blank">http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7005/rsxo...pgfllbuitsu.mp4</a>
so you see, if you sneak behind a wall, they don't hit you...the only thing hydras do is delay the marines speed for 2-3 seconds...

Free hydras need to go.

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