Fades not dying this patch has nothing to do with Feint.
I think Feint is overall a pretty crappy ability. It's extremely non-newb friendly (to the point where it's mostly effective when you're playing against inexperienced people - the most fun I had with it was 10 minutes after 213, when people thought their score was bugged), and becomes near useless when playing against decent players. It's supposed to be a "surprise" mechanic, but the first time a skulk feints the entire marine team knows and prepares for it for the rest of the game since it's a static upgrade.
I think if UWE wants this ability to remain in the game, it should really be changed to be a commander given ability or some such. Make it a bit more powerful, but more importantly - make it more <i>rare</i>. Every alien feigning every time they die just makes it second nature for marines, but one alien doing it every couple of minutes means it could effectively safe an onos' life or something.
That said I don't really see why aliens need this at all. 3 of their 5 lifeforms all have insane escape mechanisms. Why do they need even more help in escaping?
Well they are trying to put redemption back but making it a bit different.
The thing is, if the "escape when dead but not really" game is not interesting, always won or lost by the lifeforms, then basic redemption is probably a better solution.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1951270:date=Jul 13 2012, 05:14 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 13 2012, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While it certainly is very obvious when theyre faking the death, its just a delay for killing them making it very annoying. And then theres the cases where you manage to kill that lerk/fade right before they make it around that corner, only this time they get new free lifeform behind the cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not a "new free lifeform" its the same lifeform but with very very low HP. They are useless in combat, and higher lifeforms generally retreat to get healed - taking a lot of time and something that a more skilled player might have done without said upgrade. Basically it allows newer players to tank more and get away with it without a cost to the enemy really (you can kill a lerk before it even touches you, then it's feinted self flies away to heal, no damage incurred to you.) just like redemption from ns1 but without the frustrating downsides of being teleported somewhere / not giving a choice.
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy. So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet. Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...
<!--quoteo(post=1951348:date=Jul 13 2012, 01:19 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 13 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not a "new free lifeform" its the same lifeform but with very very low HP. They are useless in combat, and higher lifeforms generally retreat to get healed - taking a lot of time and something that a more skilled player might have done without said upgrade. Basically it allows newer players to tank more and get away with it without a cost to the enemy really (you can kill a lerk before it even touches you, then it's feinted self flies away to heal, no damage incurred to you.) just like redemption from ns1 but without the frustrating downsides of being teleported somewhere / not giving a choice.
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy. So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet. Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course its fun as hell, its almost impossible to lose as long as everyone on your team has their monitors turned on.
A Fade can retreat, heal and be back in 20-30 seconds on nearly any map. You can't just be "weary of corpse" as the invisible+invincible alien can make it a good 10 feet away from the body before becoming alive. If you're in a hallway you can be sure that skulk is now at your feet spamming bite or the fade is long gone around the corner to let regen tick twice and come back to finish you off.
Anyway I'm going to stop ranting on this and if it somehow stays in its currently ridiculous form then I'll just have to play alien as much as possible =p
<!--quoteo(post=1951348:date=Jul 14 2012, 03:19 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 14 2012, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not a "new free lifeform" its the same lifeform but with very very low HP. They are useless in combat, and higher lifeforms generally retreat to get healed - taking a lot of time and something that a more skilled player might have done without said upgrade. Basically it allows newer players to tank more and get away with it without a cost to the enemy really (you can kill a lerk before it even touches you, then it's feinted self flies away to heal, no damage incurred to you.) just like redemption from ns1 but without the frustrating downsides of being teleported somewhere / not giving a choice.
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy. So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet. Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well technically elmo is right :p. Its really a cheat death, not a feign death and as you've kinda pointed out serves more as a tanking function than a confusing function (it doesn't confuse as much as it might frustrate and annoy experienced players). The position of corpses don't exactly tell you alot either.
As for how fun it is from the alien pov, it probably is for a while. Cheating death, becoming invulnerable when you know you should have died, and getting the chance to set up a free bite is always going to light up fun receptors. Its definitely not the same kind of fun as outsmarting marines straight up as you do with silence, and as someone has pointed out is extremely effective and griefy against new players in particular. I think feign death plays like and is more akin to the crag tree than the shade tree, and any kills i get as a result of feign death are going to feel hella cheap.
Anyway, a hall mark of ns is the idea that a good sg marine can take on multiple skulks. Feign death has alot of balance implications here and the way its implemented currently basically negates weapon upgrades. In that regard i don't think its healthy for the game. The ability to track feigned skulks on minimap or hear them also seems like the result of a first pass implementation than any kind of real feature, but i'm just presuming.
The purpose of feign death should be to make a marine wonder whether an alien is really dead, or just playing at dead. Right now, there is no 'confusion'. Its "oh, i need run away far enough and shoot him again".
<b>Rough suggestion: </b> Make feign death actually feign death without any of the invisible, invincible walking nonsense which is problematic with blink/leap. Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill. The corpse does not disappear, becomes immune to damage for a very very short while, and comes back to life on the alien players next input. The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage. Dead should be dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1951369:date=Jul 13 2012, 01:16 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 13 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Rough suggestion: </b> Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't like that approach. Player would start to question everything. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> An ability needs to be reliable for the player using it or it will not get picked up and see even less use.
<!--quoteo(post=1951375:date=Jul 14 2012, 05:08 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jul 14 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't like that approach. Player would start to question everything.
An ability needs to be reliable for the player using it or it will not get picked up and see even less use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True! I figured that would be the point though for it to fit in as a shade 'confusing' ability.
I guess i meant that gl's and sg's could still kill feigning skulks outright, but rifles and such would result in the ability activating. In that way there is reliability. And yea, random chance to activate would probably be too problematic.
As somebody mentioned fade, I played fade last night with feign death. I am a terrible, terrible, terrible fade. I basically never played fade until this patch because, frankly, I suck at it. I managed to live about 10 minutes as fade, and get a number of kills (but not too many considered I was alive for so long), but I died about 5 or so times, and was saved by feign death. It certainly makes higher life forms more forgiving, as you have a chance of not losing your 50+ res, but it wasn't *that* great from a combat perspective. If it was 1 on 1, and I died right next to a marine, and I know he was one hit from dying, I might consider using feign death to go for him, but in a busy fight, etc, it's not going to work. It's better to run and try and escape, especially as a higher life form (I did the same as an onos <_< Lucky I managed to escape with him though). As a fade, I died to a shot gun from quite a distance away, probably only a few pellets hit me. It doesn't take much to kill somebody right after they feign death. As a ###### player, the forgiving aspect is really nice, as it's much less stressful or worrisome to take a large Pres investment.
The thing I'd worry about is allowing the very good fades/etc to keep their lifeform much longer (allowing them to stockpile Pres to rebuy it right away if they do die) making it more difficult to remove the higher lifeforms from play by killing them when the player doesn't have the Pres to re-evolve right away. The other issue is although 99% of the time an alien will retreat, they can return to combat much, much faster than if they died, especially if the fight is near a hive/crag/gorge. Together this means, especially for better players, higher level alien lifeforms that evolve feint death can probably have even more uptime, with higher Pres (similar to marines recycling dropped weapons I suppose) and a death taking them out of combat for much less time (needing to respawn, re-evolve etc)
I found it to be most overpowered on the fade if you also have regen, because you can blink away after dying and heal up many times before you ever die (if you even die). I must have been saved half a dozen times one game by that, nearly unkillable. Except one time they got lucky and shotgunned the air I was occupying before I could blink away.
I don't know if an observatory and scans can see aliens cloaked by feint, but it probably should. At least them the marines would have some recourse against this.
I don't think it's overpowered on the skulk, because if you stick around to keep fighting then you'll be at such low health that you are likely to die without getting an additional kill anyway.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Misternubs: the fade is neither entirely invisible nor invincible ever, anymore. He takes full damage in blink, and is very visible with a cloud, silhouette, and sound. So I suppose any op incident with the fade could be adjusted with energy pools having to refill from empty after coming to life again. This would ensure a highly visible short travelling shadow step of a highly weak fade.
What I don't get is: this is better than redemption imo.. but still somewhat similar, I would assume you would approve of the design? (small adjustments like above can make or break an idea though, I understand )
Two things about redemption that I think made it more balanced.
First is that I think it only had a 30% chance of working under some health threshold so even as onos you kind of had mini heart attacks if you were depending on it to get out of the fight. If you got owned hard really fast, redemption just wouldn't kick in in time.
Second, and probably more important is that redemption took you all the way back to the hive. In NS1 this meant that you were out of the fight for maybe up to a minute. So even though you were "saved," the marines could continue to push.
Because of the changes in NS2, namely map size and the way health regen works, even redemption might be overpowered in NS2.
Before we try to figure out how to change Feign Death, let's ask the obvious question: What was it added to the game to accomplish?
Personally I think it's just annoying, and I pose the question because I can't see any reasonable answer; but we might as well hear the logic behind it first.
<!--quoteo(post=1951644:date=Jul 15 2012, 08:57 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 15 2012, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What was it added to the game to accomplish?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Steady on there, that's some dangerous line of thinking in these parts!
While feign death can be really annoying currently, it might be able to remain with some changes. Currently it makes pressuring hives very difficult, as any alien that runs near the hive and dies will feign and regen while doing so, making it really difficult to 'kill them' again. Also there is the fact that you appear the instant you can move again, which allows you to just leap away/right back at a marine to finish them off or get away alot.
I think if it was changed so that you do not regen HP while feigning, and appear maybe .1 seconds before you can move again it might work a little better.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<strike>I agree and will make some suggestions based on such.</strike> Reported as a bug for ya. For those wondering as to why , that'd be a good question for QnA when hugh is back and ready!
<!--quoteo(post=1951369:date=Jul 13 2012, 08:16 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 13 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Rough suggestion: </b> Make feign death actually feign death without any of the invisible, invincible walking nonsense which is problematic with blink/leap. Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill. The corpse does not disappear, becomes immune to damage for a very very short while, and comes back to life on the alien players next input. The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage. Dead should be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. It would make it much better. Minus the "not on fatal damage", because this is already countered by the fact, that the feinting alien can be killed while feinting. So a simple to implement change for the devs would be:<ul><li>Stop the feinting alien from moving. Instead put it at the place where the corpse lies.</li><li>Disable clipping for this player while feinting, but add clipping (for damage) to the corpse. (When the corpse receives damage, it is transfered to the player.)</li><li>The player gets invulnerability only for 1 second after feint kicks in. (So he doesn't dies on the stray bullets that follow every time.)</li><li>Corpses should generally lay down for longer.</li><li>Fix bug: "shows up on minimap"</li></ul> Pros:<ul><li>A marine has to be able to counter this upgrade. (=Shooting the corpse should kill the feinting alien.)</li><li>The alien should decide when it comes back to life. (Allowing for a tactical approach.)</li><li>This way it is not a live-saver anymore, but a tactical tool, that can work, but don't has to.</li></ul> Cons:<ul><li>May be difficult to implement if corpses are only client-side.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1951905:date=Jul 16 2012, 12:31 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 16 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like this idea. It would make it much better. Minus the "not on fatal damage", because this is already countered by the fact, that the feinting alien can be killed while feinting. So a simple to implement change for the devs would be:<ul><li>Stop the feinting alien from moving. Instead put it at the place where the corpse lies.</li><li>Disable clipping for this player while feinting, but add clipping (for damage) to the corpse. (When the corpse receives damage, it is transfered to the player.)</li><li>The player gets invulnerability only for 1 second after feint kicks in. (So he doesn't dies on the stray bullets that follow every time.)</li><li>Corpses should generally lay down for longer.</li><li>Fix bug: "shows up on minimap"</li></ul> Pros:<ul><li>A marine has to be able to counter this upgrade. (=Shooting the corpse should kill the feinting alien.)</li><li>The alien should decide when it comes back to life. (Allowing for a tactical approach.)</li><li>This way it is not a live-saver anymore, but a tactical tool, that can work, but don't has to.</li></ul> Cons:<ul><li>May be difficult to implement if corpses are only client-side.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1951905:date=Jul 16 2012, 02:31 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 16 2012, 02:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a simple to implement change for the devs would be:<ul><li>Stop the feinting alien from moving. Instead put it at the place where the corpse lies.</li><li>Disable clipping for this player while feinting, but add clipping (for damage) to the corpse. (When the corpse receives damage, it is transfered to the player.)</li><li>The player gets invulnerability only for 1 second after feint kicks in. (So he doesn't dies on the stray bullets that follow every time.)</li><li>Corpses should generally lay down for longer.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
During earlier development of Feign, the alien became immobilized when low on health, and was not protected from damage when feigning death.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.
I'm guessing the main purposes of Feign Death would be to: 1. <strike>Nullify</strike> Reduce marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat. 2. Prevent marines from killing aliens (especially Skulks) too quickly with focused fire. Feign Death facilitates Alien teamwork, as teammates of the "downed" alien can distract marines to save them, and vice versa. ("Was that alien dead? I better keep my eyes on it. ... Oh no! More aliens coming in.")
<!--quoteo(post=1951917:date=Jul 16 2012, 09:49 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 16 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm guessing the main purposes of Feign Death would be to: 1. Nullify marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat. 2. Prevent marines from killing (especially advanced) aliens too quickly with focused fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both of which have pretty big implications. Ranged advantage nullified. focused fire. You might even call it an upgrade that purposefully nullifies teamwork, positioning and tactics. This is why i still have a problem with feint death.
And then there is the whole 'premise' that aliens should have overwhelming advantage in melee etc. -_-
If the upgrade is going to stay, I think just a very short invulnerability time on death should fix the overshooting problem that happens with lag and the problem/s you noted.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->During earlier development of Feign, the alien became immobilized when low on health, and was not protected from damage when feigning death.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a nice description of how a problematic idea is fixed by adding weird mechanics, resulting in an inelegant solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1951917:date=Jul 16 2012, 01:49 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jul 16 2012, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->During earlier development of Feign, the alien became immobilized when low on health, and was not protected from damage when feigning death.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.
I'm guessing the main purposes of Feign Death would be to: 1. Nullify marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat. 2. Prevent marines from killing (especially advanced) aliens too quickly with focused fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thx for the heads-up twiliteblue, but this doesn't explain why the ability to move while feinting was added. As I wrote a 1 second (or maybe even 2 seconds) invul is enough top counter that problem.
Why should the alien be able to move? Why can't the alien decide when to come back to life?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
There are quite a lot of fun to be had for both the developers and players, when testing new ideas. Aren't constructive discussions like these fun? :)
IMO feign could be improved by tweaking the invulnerability time and the cloaking time, and perhaps allowing alien to end the Feign effects early by moving.
<!--quoteo(post=1952013:date=Jul 16 2012, 02:27 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jul 16 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire concept of a Marine losing his hard earned kill is frustrating. I don't like this ability at all, even if it isn't that OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. Its hard enough to kill an alien without this.
All this said, I think the class I've seen feint death used on most is the gorge as they jump to their cover - which feels very natural. I've seen skulks, onos and fades using it too, but never to the same success.
<!--quoteo(post=1952286:date=Jul 18 2012, 03:36 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 18 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed. Its hard enough to kill an alien without this.
All this said, I think the class I've seen feint death used on most is the gorge as they jump to their cover - which feels very natural. I've seen skulks, onos and fades using it too, but never to the same success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This blows my mind... A fade (especially with regen) can spam click shift and, if they have it, hold down blink - regen starts ticking while still feigned and then you are flying out of the room at 200 miles per hour. A gorge is by far the easiest thing to kill feigned as their escape is relatively slow and clumsy.
I really like the idea of lowering the invis time to counter the regen ticking - but then again, I like the idea of removing the upgrade completely =p
Healing while Feinted is definitely a problem, trying to kill something hanging out by a hive or crag with regen+Feint going is pretty impossible. Easy fix though, make it so you cannot regenerate from any source while Feinted and probably a few second afterwards.
Comments
I think Feint is overall a pretty crappy ability. It's extremely non-newb friendly (to the point where it's mostly effective when you're playing against inexperienced people - the most fun I had with it was 10 minutes after 213, when people thought their score was bugged), and becomes near useless when playing against decent players. It's supposed to be a "surprise" mechanic, but the first time a skulk feints the entire marine team knows and prepares for it for the rest of the game since it's a static upgrade.
I think if UWE wants this ability to remain in the game, it should really be changed to be a commander given ability or some such. Make it a bit more powerful, but more importantly - make it more <i>rare</i>. Every alien feigning every time they die just makes it second nature for marines, but one alien doing it every couple of minutes means it could effectively safe an onos' life or something.
That said I don't really see why aliens need this at all. 3 of their 5 lifeforms all have insane escape mechanisms. Why do they need even more help in escaping?
The thing is, if the "escape when dead but not really" game is not interesting, always won or lost by the lifeforms, then basic redemption is probably a better solution.
Its not a "new free lifeform" its the same lifeform but with very very low HP. They are useless in combat, and higher lifeforms generally retreat to get healed - taking a lot of time and something that a more skilled player might have done without said upgrade. Basically it allows newer players to tank more and get away with it without a cost to the enemy really (you can kill a lerk before it even touches you, then it's feinted self flies away to heal, no damage incurred to you.) just like redemption from ns1 but without the frustrating downsides of being teleported somewhere / not giving a choice.
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy.
So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet.
Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy.
So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet.
Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course its fun as hell, its almost impossible to lose as long as everyone on your team has their monitors turned on.
A Fade can retreat, heal and be back in 20-30 seconds on nearly any map. You can't just be "weary of corpse" as the invisible+invincible alien can make it a good 10 feet away from the body before becoming alive. If you're in a hallway you can be sure that skulk is now at your feet spamming bite or the fade is long gone around the corner to let regen tick twice and come back to finish you off.
Anyway I'm going to stop ranting on this and if it somehow stays in its currently ridiculous form then I'll just have to play alien as much as possible =p
It supports the purpose of the structure, too: To confuse the enemy.
So just stay alert and weary of corpses - its a game changer thats for sure - but i have a feeling that the only reason it might be annoying is because you just aren't used to it yet.
Have you tried from the alien's POV yet? Its fun as hell...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well technically elmo is right :p. Its really a cheat death, not a feign death and as you've kinda pointed out serves more as a tanking function than a confusing function (it doesn't confuse as much as it might frustrate and annoy experienced players). The position of corpses don't exactly tell you alot either.
As for how fun it is from the alien pov, it probably is for a while. Cheating death, becoming invulnerable when you know you should have died, and getting the chance to set up a free bite is always going to light up fun receptors. Its definitely not the same kind of fun as outsmarting marines straight up as you do with silence, and as someone has pointed out is extremely effective and griefy against new players in particular. I think feign death plays like and is more akin to the crag tree than the shade tree, and any kills i get as a result of feign death are going to feel hella cheap.
Anyway, a hall mark of ns is the idea that a good sg marine can take on multiple skulks. Feign death has alot of balance implications here and the way its implemented currently basically negates weapon upgrades. In that regard i don't think its healthy for the game. The ability to track feigned skulks on minimap or hear them also seems like the result of a first pass implementation than any kind of real feature, but i'm just presuming.
The purpose of feign death should be to make a marine wonder whether an alien is really dead, or just playing at dead. Right now, there is no 'confusion'. Its "oh, i need run away far enough and shoot him again".
<b>Rough suggestion: </b>
Make feign death actually feign death without any of the invisible, invincible walking nonsense which is problematic with blink/leap. Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill. The corpse does not disappear, becomes immune to damage for a very very short while, and comes back to life on the alien players next input. The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage. Dead should be dead.
Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't like that approach. Player would start to question everything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An ability needs to be reliable for the player using it or it will not get picked up and see even less use.
An ability needs to be reliable for the player using it or it will not get picked up and see even less use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True! I figured that would be the point though for it to fit in as a shade 'confusing' ability.
I guess i meant that gl's and sg's could still kill feigning skulks outright, but rifles and such would result in the ability activating. In that way there is reliability. And yea, random chance to activate would probably be too problematic.
The thing I'd worry about is allowing the very good fades/etc to keep their lifeform much longer (allowing them to stockpile Pres to rebuy it right away if they do die) making it more difficult to remove the higher lifeforms from play by killing them when the player doesn't have the Pres to re-evolve right away. The other issue is although 99% of the time an alien will retreat, they can return to combat much, much faster than if they died, especially if the fight is near a hive/crag/gorge. Together this means, especially for better players, higher level alien lifeforms that evolve feint death can probably have even more uptime, with higher Pres (similar to marines recycling dropped weapons I suppose) and a death taking them out of combat for much less time (needing to respawn, re-evolve etc)
I must have been saved half a dozen times one game by that, nearly unkillable. Except one time they got lucky and shotgunned the air I was occupying before I could blink away.
I don't know if an observatory and scans can see aliens cloaked by feint, but it probably should. At least them the marines would have some recourse against this.
I don't think it's overpowered on the skulk, because if you stick around to keep fighting then you'll be at such low health that you are likely to die without getting an additional kill anyway.
So I suppose any op incident with the fade could be adjusted with energy pools having to refill from empty after coming to life again. This would ensure a highly visible short travelling shadow step of a highly weak fade.
What I don't get is: this is better than redemption imo.. but still somewhat similar, I would assume you would approve of the design? (small adjustments like above can make or break an idea though, I understand )
First is that I think it only had a 30% chance of working under some health threshold so even as onos you kind of had mini heart attacks if you were depending on it to get out of the fight. If you got owned hard really fast, redemption just wouldn't kick in in time.
Second, and probably more important is that redemption took you all the way back to the hive. In NS1 this meant that you were out of the fight for maybe up to a minute. So even though you were "saved," the marines could continue to push.
Because of the changes in NS2, namely map size and the way health regen works, even redemption might be overpowered in NS2.
Personally I think it's just annoying, and I pose the question because I can't see any reasonable answer; but we might as well hear the logic behind it first.
Steady on there, that's some dangerous line of thinking in these parts!
I think if it was changed so that you do not regen HP while feigning, and appear maybe .1 seconds before you can move again it might work a little better.
For those wondering as to why , that'd be a good question for QnA when hugh is back and ready!
Make feign death actually feign death without any of the invisible, invincible walking nonsense which is problematic with blink/leap. Have the marine receive fake +points when the ability activates and replicate all other feedback that indicates a normal kill. The corpse does not disappear, becomes immune to damage for a very very short while, and comes back to life on the alien players next input. The catch would be that it activates (maybe even randomly although this is problematic) on low health but not on fatal damage. Dead should be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. It would make it much better. Minus the "not on fatal damage", because this is already countered by the fact, that the feinting alien can be killed while feinting. So a simple to implement change for the devs would be:<ul><li>Stop the feinting alien from moving. Instead put it at the place where the corpse lies.</li><li>Disable clipping for this player while feinting, but add clipping (for damage) to the corpse. (When the corpse receives damage, it is transfered to the player.)</li><li>The player gets invulnerability only for 1 second after feint kicks in. (So he doesn't dies on the stray bullets that follow every time.)</li><li>Corpses should generally lay down for longer.</li><li>Fix bug: "shows up on minimap"</li></ul>
Pros:<ul><li>A marine has to be able to counter this upgrade. (=Shooting the corpse should kill the feinting alien.)</li><li>The alien should decide when it comes back to life. (Allowing for a tactical approach.)</li><li>This way it is not a live-saver anymore, but a tactical tool, that can work, but don't has to.</li></ul>
Cons:<ul><li>May be difficult to implement if corpses are only client-side.</li></ul>
Pros:<ul><li>A marine has to be able to counter this upgrade. (=Shooting the corpse should kill the feinting alien.)</li><li>The alien should decide when it comes back to life. (Allowing for a tactical approach.)</li><li>This way it is not a live-saver anymore, but a tactical tool, that can work, but don't has to.</li></ul>
Cons:<ul><li>May be difficult to implement if corpses are only client-side.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you took it out of my head! +1
During earlier development of Feign, the alien became immobilized when low on health, and was not protected from damage when feigning death.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.
I'm guessing the main purposes of Feign Death would be to:
1. <strike>Nullify</strike> Reduce marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat.
2. Prevent marines from killing aliens (especially Skulks) too quickly with focused fire. Feign Death facilitates Alien teamwork, as teammates of the "downed" alien can distract marines to save them, and vice versa. ("Was that alien dead? I better keep my eyes on it. ... Oh no! More aliens coming in.")
1. Nullify marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat.
2. Prevent marines from killing (especially advanced) aliens too quickly with focused fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of which have pretty big implications. Ranged advantage nullified. focused fire. You might even call it an upgrade that purposefully nullifies teamwork, positioning and tactics. This is why i still have a problem with feint death.
And then there is the whole 'premise' that aliens should have overwhelming advantage in melee etc. -_-
If the upgrade is going to stay, I think just a very short invulnerability time on death should fix the overshooting problem that happens with lag and the problem/s you noted.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a nice description of how a problematic idea is fixed by adding weird mechanics, resulting in an inelegant solution.
However, it was found to be an almost completely ineffective upgrade, since Marines will continue to shoot the "corpse" for up to a second after the death animation due to latency and player reaction time.
Consequently, a damage invulnerability period was added, and aliens were allowed to move (at a very speed) when feigning death.
I'm guessing the main purposes of Feign Death would be to:
1. Nullify marines' ranged advantage in team fights. "Downed" aliens are given a second life to fight for a bit longer, or retreat.
2. Prevent marines from killing (especially advanced) aliens too quickly with focused fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thx for the heads-up twiliteblue, but this doesn't explain why the ability to move while feinting was added. As I wrote a 1 second (or maybe even 2 seconds) invul is enough top counter that problem.
Why should the alien be able to move?
Why can't the alien decide when to come back to life?
IMO feign could be improved by tweaking the invulnerability time and the cloaking time, and perhaps allowing alien to end the Feign effects early by moving.
Indeed. Its hard enough to kill an alien without this.
All this said, I think the class I've seen feint death used on most is the gorge as they jump to their cover - which feels very natural. I've seen skulks, onos and fades using it too, but never to the same success.
All this said, I think the class I've seen feint death used on most is the gorge as they jump to their cover - which feels very natural. I've seen skulks, onos and fades using it too, but never to the same success.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This blows my mind... A fade (especially with regen) can spam click shift and, if they have it, hold down blink - regen starts ticking while still feigned and then you are flying out of the room at 200 miles per hour. A gorge is by far the easiest thing to kill feigned as their escape is relatively slow and clumsy.
I really like the idea of lowering the invis time to counter the regen ticking - but then again, I like the idea of removing the upgrade completely =p