<!--quoteo(post=1953603:date=Jul 25 2012, 06:43 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So basically the marine team can't bring up enough team play on a pub to defend a base where the sentries are only support but not area denial. But the aliens should bring up enough team play to get a base down that has so strong sentries, that they litterally deny a skulk from moving into parts of the map? Can't you see how this can be abused by using such strong sentries to a degree, that you make a skulk useless?
Plus, I only play pub-games and never had a marine team that was not able to follow the coms command to "use the pg" in order to counter an ongoing alien attack at an outpost. Allowing sentries to singlehandedly defend outposts simply increases the "manpower" of the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole reason why most maps have vents is so that marines can not simply lock down corridors. I.e even if a corridor is locked down by marines with sentries, there will always be plenty of other ways IN for aliens. This is not the case for marines, at all, which only furthers my belief that you are making a very alien-biased case against sentries here. When a corridor is blocked off for marines early on, there's only so many other routes they can take. Routes that will be constantly contested by skulks and other aliens. (Giving the marine team very limited space for expansion or god forbid alien RT harassment)
You make it seem as if a single sentry will shut skulks out of the game, when smart positioning and movement will easily allow skulks to 'surpass' small amounts of sentries. Not to mention that once leap comes in, it becomes even easier to get into the 'blind spots' that are almost ALWAYS present. And that's only talking skulks. A single 30 p.res lerk would suffice in breaking up a corridor with multiple sentries and no marines protecting them. Then when spikes, bilebomb, fades, onos, stomp and vortex come into play, any amount of sentries that aren't supported by marines are NOT going to be an issue WHATSOEVER.
As for rooms or base filled with sentries, at which point we are talking 50+ t.res invested on just sentry turrets alone. That would require a team effort yes. How exactly is that unacceptable? A single skulk should be able to deal with 50+ t.res worth of defenses? (Like is the case in this build really) Is that what you are implying? Gorges can effectively lock down areas for free, combined with a single whip (10 p.res for gorge + 10 t.res for a single whip) you can lock off SEVERAL marines, if not the entire team, from taking over an area early on. SURELY you can see the ridiculous double standard here?
It infuriates me to see so many faulty balance assumptions all piled up in one thread. And to realise that these are the kind of faulty perspectives that also seem to influence the UWE design decisions. Your beef is with sentry spam, yet instead of addressing ONLY sentry spam (which mind you UWE already did to an extend by allowing lerk gas to block them, giving bilebomb back to gorges, etc) you make these ridiculous assessments that only serve to completely nullify even the individual sentry turrets simply because YOU, a vocal minority on this forum, don't like having them in the game at all. This while at the same time, these avid sentry haters don't seem to mind a (at least what should be from their perspective) MUCH WORSE mechanic being in place for aliens and gorges.
I like securities suggestions except for the 360 angle part. The blindspots make for interesting choices and skill from the comm to work around the limitation, and skill on the part of aliens to exploit them.
But the concept of a tough, high accuracy, low damage sentry I like a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1953599:date=Jul 25 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...] a single skulk should be 'denied' of an area or corridor by a 10 - 15 t.res sentry unless he has leap (Or carapace and manages to sneak around it or whatever). Support from gorges, lerks, fades, onos or just larger numbers should be required to overcome some well placed sentries.[...]
[...]It's an important part of the RTS mechanics, and it's an important part of Marine gameplay in NS 1 just as well. Fighting off a few sentries isn't necessarily boring or annoying, it only becomes a painful chore if they are spammed.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1953592:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]Sentry spam is not a good thing, and turret farms were a common problem in NS1, though I only really encountered them when the Marines were turtling in their base for those last few minutes or on siege maps.
I feel like most of the complaints that turrets <i>were</i> too effective was that they couldn't run in to the marine base and simply chew on their armory or IPs, or take out a phase gate with no problems. A sentry is meant to fix these things, they're meant to be static defenses that can deny entire rooms from skulk rushes or harassment from skulks. They currently cannot do their job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a very marine-biased view of the whole mechanic. So if you need the whole alien team to get one entrenched marine base down. How are aliens supposed to win? Why shouldn't the marines just counter the massive alien attack? Maybe with their sentries the marines only need the half team to counter a full alien push. Resulting in the other half team attacking a hive. This is just very short sighted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking right? You do know that aliens win 3 out of every 4 games right now, and have for a few <b><i>YEARS</b></i> since NS2 has been in closed alpha/beta, right? Aliens have no problems breaking through a room guarded by sentries. LoS problems, Lerk gas, Fade vortex, Onos stomp, and a Gorge's bilebombs can easily, <u>easily</u> take down a room full of sentries undefended. The point of a sentry is to prevent harassment or a single alien from running into a room and chewing on the PG for a few minutes.
How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries should never be used as area denial. * A short deterrent to give the marines time to react before the phase gate is attacked, YES! * A buff for marines the defend an area, YES! But NEVER in anyway a static AI which shuts up an area for aliens. There is simply no way to make this not op, because you can slowly advance and secure everything with your sentries. This is totally not fun to fight against as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS? The turrets are not meant to be "no fun allowed" buildings, but they <i>are</i> meant to defend, and stop, skulk attacks and rushes. <b>Skulks</b> should not be able to take down a room with 5-6 turrets with no support from other life forms. This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it.
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->piratedave has analyzed it the right way. As long as they can be used as area denial, they will be used for that even if they have to be spammed. Just making them not placeable in the firecone of other sentries would really help this issue. Than we can start to slightly increase their hp to make them useful again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not 100% on this, but even 1 GL against 1 Whip you kill the Whip pretty easily - rate of fire is higher than the reflect rate. So a couple rines with GL spam is alot of grenades going thru, which is alot of dead whips, especially with the nutty range GL grenade damage has.
Increase hp/armor OR decrease cost to 10 resources. Remove robotics requirement (depending on skulk design). Limit 3 sentries per power node. Comm chairs increase limit to 8 for the power node that the comm chair is in.
Sentries will need a lot of work but I think the above may be a good start. I don't think sentries can be adequately balanced ever without some sort of cap like hydras. Remains to be seen whether or not whips would need a cap too, I'm pretty sure ARCs are good enough to counter any sort of whip spam strategy but I guess you'll just have to wait and see how the meta game plays out. I do think aliens have enough counters to them, there should be some sort of strategy other than mindless skulk/fade spam.
It would also help marines out a bit in the early game with the skulks zerging the infantry portals. Given that all the resource towers are built by cysts that means that the entire alien team is free to attack whatever they please whilst marines have to go out and manually build the towers which means they can't defend and/or have to choose between defending a resource tower or losing the game. A sentry or two in the base early on would help make up for the marines that are going out to build towers.
7 bites to destroy a sentry 2 onos hits to reduce a sentry from 100% to 5% (3 onos hits to destroy) 2 gorge bilebombs will destroy a sentry (1 to take it to 50% then another to finish it off)
sentries are buggy as all hell, you can actually go up to a sentry and if you are right up to it ... it often wont shoot you .... this is especially noticeable with the onos and the fade
I noticed sentries dont shoot clogs, they will shoot at aliens behind clogs though. I managed to destroy a sentry by building a hydra above it lol. I placed 10 sentries in a room with covering fire ... and i cleared them all out with a single onos. I also noticed that leap is extremely effective at getting past sentries.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're joking right? You do know that aliens win 3 out of every 4 games right now, and have for a few <b><i>YEARS</b></i> since NS2 has been in closed alpha/beta, right? Aliens have no problems breaking through a room guarded by sentries. LoS problems, Lerk gas, Fade vortex, Onos stomp, and a Gorge's bilebombs can easily, <u>easily</u> take down a room full of sentries undefended. The point of a sentry is to prevent harassment or a single alien from running into a room and chewing on the PG for a few minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That maybe the current state, but that will change.
Hive rooms shouldn't be able to be defend without the help of aliens. Same goes for the marines. Which have already better ways to defend their base, since they don't spawn as a instant kill. They have the phase gates which allow them to return within seconds to their base. And most importantly they have the beacon, which returns all living marines to the base within seconds and speeds up the spawn of the marines which are currently respawning. Aliens on the other hand, die a lot in cross fire and GLs when they spawn, they spawn even without upgrades and cant just pick up a weapon to be more useful. Hell you have even to be lucky to respawn in the hive which is under attack since it impossible to change between eggs and spawn often in a hive which is very important seconds away from the hive which is under attack. And you really want Sentrys that are able to defend the marine base alone? I just have to ask you in return, you're joking right?
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shoot the damn whip from the distance, or set it a flame than it won't be able to throw back the grenades. A gorge isn't able to heal against two marines. Clogs are also a joke if you are more than 1 marine so are hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS? The turrets are not meant to be "no fun allowed" buildings, but they <i>are</i> meant to defend, and stop, skulk attacks and rushes. <b>Skulks</b> should not be able to take down a room with 5-6 turrets with no support from other life forms. This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is NS2, not NS1! Things are supposed to change. If the hive is undefended this: "This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it." is possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> AFAIK he wasn't talking about nerfing them more, he was against to powerful buffs for them. That they shouldn't be made to powerful again.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Just did a 50 second test on the tracking of turrets, i tried it as a lerk first, then as a skulk, as they are most mobile. <a href="http://youtu.be/CHrzq2KJTT8" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/CHrzq2KJTT8</a> in the new build, which is 215. As you can see.. well.. they have an extremely large amount of trouble targetting anything doing strafeis. so essentialy, EXTREMELY USELESS, so hp, or tracking speed, pick and choose or take them out cos im not spending another 10 res on these useless sods again. You people who are saying turrets are good now, are extremely delusioned. My suggestions to stop turret spam or at least prevent its extreme effectiveness (which, aparently, is a problem)without ###### on the people who don't spam them.
15-20 res, make spamming turrets EXPENSIVE, not Stupidly pointless as it is now, at least 600-700 hp, maybe 200-300 armor minimum if you still want to reduce the hp/armor. It seriously only takes 7 bites from a skulk to kill one turret That's barely 3 seconds. Bring back structural energy, and make it so that turrets take energy to shoot, so they can shoot orever, but when they run out o energy, they will power down until they have like 30% of their max energy. which could bring in a use for power packs, faster energy regeneration. instead of 15 res or one building. which is nice, but seriously. Theres hundreds o more fun ways to fix this 'problem', same with hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shoot the damn whip from the distance, or set it a flame than it won't be able to throw back the grenades. A gorge isn't able to heal against two marines. Clogs are also a joke if you are more than 1 marine so are hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You must be joking, or simply not playing the same NS 2 as I am. Early game marines have NO, ZERO counters to a cogs + hydras + gorge + quick whip in a corridor. I've seen large groups of marine get blocked out of areas this way, it's ridiculous.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in the new build, which is 215.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great, so they admit sentries are utter crap and then just leave it broken and further nerf marines in other areas. I'm not a marine fanboy at all, but I can't help to get frustrated and disappointed every time I pick up marines for what generally always becomes a game of desperate struggling against this game's poor balance and design. Heck, playing aliens just feels cheesy at the moment.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole reason why most maps have vents is so that marines can not simply lock down corridors. I.e even if a corridor is locked down by marines with sentries, there will always be plenty of other ways IN for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wish this would be true. Sadly there are many rooms with less than 3 ways into them. This is map dependent but I think we both agree, that there should be at least 3 ways to get into every room on a map. More so if weldable doors are involved. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not the case for marines, at all, which only furthers my belief that you are making a very alien-biased case against sentries here. When a corridor is blocked off for marines early on, there's only so many other routes they can take. Routes that will be constantly contested by skulks and other aliens. (Giving the marine team very limited space for expansion or god forbid alien RT harassment)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is right and based on the asymmetric teams. Marines are supposed to shoot their ways up to the alien hives. Aliens (because of melee) are supposed to use sneakier tactics. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You make it seem as if a single sentry will shut skulks out of the game, when smart positioning and movement will easily allow skulks to 'surpass' small amounts of sentries. Not to mention that once leap comes in, it becomes even easier to get into the 'blind spots' that are almost ALWAYS present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only was it very simple to save an area with 2 or 3 sentries without a blind spot, they also were so strong that you needed more than one skulk live to discover the blind spot. If there was even one. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's only talking skulks. A single 30 p.res lerk would suffice in breaking up a corridor with multiple sentries and no marines protecting them. Then when spikes, bilebomb, fades, onos, stomp and vortex come into play, any amount of sentries that aren't supported by marines are NOT going to be an issue WHATSOEVER.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the problem. In all your skulk-examples you are talking of a skulk vs lone sentries. This is nearly never the case. (And when, not for long.) If the sentry health is increased to old levels, you can't get down any base as skulk. Because there will be a marine killing you even if you got a blind spot. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for rooms or base filled with sentries, at which point we are talking 50+ t.res invested on just sentry turrets alone. That would require a team effort yes. How exactly is that unacceptable? A single skulk should be able to deal with 50+ t.res worth of defenses? (Like is the case in this build really) Is that what you are implying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem (and this is where we differ) is that this play style should never be possible. If you got 5 sentries in a room and they are able to defend this room without marines, you have increased the "manpower" of the marine team. The marines that aren't needed anymore to defend this position can attack the aliens. The aliens have to react to this. They have to stop the marines or they will just roll over a hive. Right now the aliens can sacrifice one skulk to try to bring down an expansion while marines are pushing else where. But if this one skulk has no chance to get into this 50T-Res sentry-fort, the aliens have no chance to gain any ground. If they attack the fort with all players, the marines will defend there and also have the 5 sentries as support. This way even the whole alien team can't get into that base. I don't like the whole concept of sentries that can shut tight an area. It isn't needed and it isn't fun in my eyes. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges can effectively lock down areas for free, combined with a single whip (10 p.res for gorge + 10 t.res for a single whip) you can lock off SEVERAL marines, if not the entire team, from taking over an area early on. SURELY you can see the ridiculous double standard here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. The gorge needs to stick with its base in order to make it effective. This is one player that isn't on the battlefield else where. You are talking of AI defense dropped by the com. The gorge is totally different. You can even kill a gorge in it's hydra-fort as single marine. Sure, you will die by the hydras after that. But this are -10res for the gorge and nothing left for the marine. If there are 2 marines the other one can kill the hydras after the first killed the gorge and simply take over the room. This is really no comparison to room secured by sentry spam. <!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It infuriates me to see so many faulty balance assumptions all piled up in one thread. And to realise that these are the kind of faulty perspectives that also seem to influence the UWE design decisions. Your beef is with sentry spam, yet instead of addressing ONLY sentry spam (which mind you UWE already did to an extend by allowing lerk gas to block them, giving bilebomb back to gorges, etc) you make these ridiculous assessments that only serve to completely nullify even the individual sentry turrets simply because YOU, a vocal minority on this forum, don't like having them in the game at all. This while at the same time, these avid sentry haters don't seem to mind a (at least what should be from their perspective) MUCH WORSE mechanic being in place for aliens and gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, that you think I shouldn't voice my opinion. Or that I'm just trying to argue for the alien team. (I'm playing both teams equally.) If you can't agree with me about this, there is no problem. Bring up your arguments, I bring mine. Others have to decide what sounds logical. Don't think that I have more (or any) impact on the dev than you. It's all about logical arguments. So there is no need in pillorying me for voicing my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're joking right? You do know that aliens win 3 out of every 4 games right now, and have for a few <b><i>YEARS</b></i> since NS2 has been in closed alpha/beta, right? Aliens have no problems breaking through a room guarded by sentries. LoS problems, Lerk gas, Fade vortex, Onos stomp, and a Gorge's bilebombs can easily, <u>easily</u> take down a room full of sentries undefended. The point of a sentry is to prevent harassment or a single alien from running into a room and chewing on the PG for a few minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is right and I only argument against sentries, that are so powerful that they deny the aliens parts of the map completely. They should be only a deterrent from the phase gate. Long enough for the marines to react. <!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only are you forgetting that there are things like ARCs, but you also don't look at it as asymmetric as it is. The marines have the guns, they roll somewhere and kill things. Aliens best choice is to flank the enemy and play stealthy. Denying them rooms by powerful sentries will force them to use lesser routes in a map and therefor, in the worst case have to attack frontal. The marines have a much different play style. They don't flank an alien position, they roll over it. <!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. It is more fun to react to the attacks of the enemy team than to play against AI buildings. <!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. If you had read this thread and my posts, you would have known, that I'm for a slight hp buff. (Increasing it from 2 seconds for a skulk to bring it down, to 5 seconds.) The only thing I want to nerf was the possibility to use sentries for area denial. (idea: Not placeable in the fire cone of another sentry.) Because I think, they should be useful as buff for defending marines and as deterrent for aliens, to stop them attacking the pg before the marines can react.
How about allowing nearby robotics factories to give the same bonus effect as nearby marines. That way you are not forced to build robotics nearby in order to build turrets, but it is advisable if you want to defend a key location and random placed turrets on the map are still possible. This won't fix the spam though, unless you start limiting the turrets themselves artificially by some means (#powernodes or #robotic factories or #techpoints).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem (and this is where we differ) is that this play style should never be possible. If you got 5 sentries in a room and they are able to defend this room without marines, you have increased the "manpower" of the marine team. The marines that aren't needed anymore to defend this position can attack the aliens. The aliens have to react to this. They have to stop the marines or they will just roll over a hive. Right now the aliens can sacrifice one skulk to try to bring down an expansion while marines are pushing else where. But if this one skulk has no chance to get into this 50T-Res sentry-fort, the aliens have no chance to gain any ground. If they attack the fort with all players, the marines will defend there and also have the 5 sentries as support. This way even the whole alien team can't get into that base. I don't like the whole concept of sentries that can shut tight an area. It isn't needed and it isn't fun in my eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly the fallacy of your argument. If marines invest 50 t.res in building a fortress out of a place, that's 50 t.res not invested elsewhere. That 50 t.res could have gone in marine offensive power, but it didn't. And while single skulks may be denied of the area, a small number of aliens (preferably existing of multiple lifeforms) will be more than enough to do the trick. Especially if no marines are present. A larger amount of turrets alone, even with the old sentry stats, NEVER could defend an area by itself without marines present. To claim this would be a gross misrepresentation of reality. (but such views do explain why sentries are utterly garbage today)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is right and based on the asymmetric teams. Marines are supposed to shoot their ways up to the alien hives. Aliens (because of melee) are supposed to use sneakier tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Once the second hive is up, which is usually before the 5 minute mark in any game any way, aliens can just as well confront marines head on. Heck even without the second hive I regularly see aliens just go head-on versus marines and still maintain a 'break-even' point. (1 kill for a death) This is a very favourable situation for aliens, since while they are applying this pressure on marine map control head-on, the alien commander is just quietly expanding without needing any players present.
Marines being able to hold territory with sentries to some extent is an important method to counterbalance the aliens being able to expand without needing any players present. I consider myself an experienced commander in this game, and the only time (not counting obviously stacked teams) I managed to effectively hold map control as marines in the mid-game stage was when I could pop down a few sentries so that my marines could stay grouped and focus their efforts elsewhere, allowing marine aggression. (Or that at the very least a single marine would suffice in holding areas with a sentry there too)
<!--quoteo(post=1953864:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:14 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 26 2012, 05:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is exactly the fallacy of your argument. If marines invest 50 t.res in building a fortress out of a place, that's 50 t.res not invested elsewhere. That 50 t.res could have gone in marine offensive power, but it didn't. And while single skulks may be denied of the area, a small number of aliens (preferably existing of multiple lifeforms) will be more than enough to do the trick. Especially if no marines are present. A larger amount of turrets alone, even with the old sentry stats, NEVER could defend an area by itself without marines present. To claim this would be a gross misrepresentation of reality. (but such views do explain why sentries are utterly garbage today)
This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Once the second hive is up, which is usually before the 5 minute mark in any game any way, aliens can just as well confront marines head on. Heck even without the second hive I regularly see aliens just go head-on versus marines and still maintain a 'break-even' point. (1 kill for a death) This is a very favourable situation for aliens, since while they are applying this pressure on marine map control head-on, the alien commander is just quietly expanding without needing any players present.
Marines being able to hold territory with sentries to some extent is an important method to counterbalance the aliens being able to expand without needing any players present. I consider myself an experienced commander in this game, and the only time (not counting obviously stacked teams) I managed to effectively hold map control as marines in the mid-game stage was when I could pop down a few sentries so that my marines could stay grouped and focus their efforts elsewhere, allowing marine aggression. (Or that at the very least a single marine would suffice in holding areas with a sentry there too)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Alien buildings need way to long to build on their own if you want to be able to compete with marines you need gorges to speed up building RTs and the hive. Since infestation sight has been removed completely it is also easy for marines to camp infested but not yet dropped RTs and wait for the drop and than kill the RT within a few seconds.
Also 5 sentries were able to defend a room against one or two medium skilled skulks and often injure high skilled skulks so much or force them to position them self so that they are easily be shot by marines that come by. In combination with mines a nearly perfect defense which needed a little maintenance (welding, replacing mines) was possible.
If aliens want to hold a position they need a gorge which has to stay at his defense line almost all the time and if more than one marine is attacking there he needs help of other aliens. Marines just shouldn't be able to defend positions with sentries alone. They get PG, JP which allows them to put pressure on because they can travel very fast from point to point if needed.
Apparantly turrets are fine as is according to UWE
if you want to hear then go to 1:27:30 --->>> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/325863743" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/325863743</a>
Yea, it's a problem that public commanders waste res on turrets early in the game forgo'ing upgrades, but players will learn and understand that is a pretty bold mistake fairly soon. And turrets being only a minor deterrent, or light defense structure is all they really should be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, it's a problem that public commanders waste res on turrets early in the game forgo'ing upgrades, but players will learn and understand that is a pretty bold mistake fairly soon. And turrets being only a minor deterrent, or light defense structure is all they really should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sad that this is the opinion of a playtester. Basically what you're saying is that sentry turrets shouldn't be a viable option early on in the game (I loled because they're so weak you'd think they would ONLY be viable early game to begin with), or at any stage really, unless the comm has res to waste. Hugely disappointed with this decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1953938:date=Jul 26 2012, 10:57 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 26 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem with them at all.
Yea, it's a problem that public commanders waste res on turrets early in the game forgo'ing upgrades, but players will learn and understand that is a pretty bold mistake fairly soon. And turrets being only a minor deterrent, or light defense structure is all they really should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it a mistake?
I actually look at it as a different tactic and possible a good one if you have a marine base that's located very near an alien spawn because we've all seen the damage a continous skulk rush can do.
It seems that everyone wants the game to play out the exact same way everytime (do this first, this next, etc), but I enjoy a different round each time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally, think that turrets should simply be put back to how they were - they weren't broken so why were they tampered with??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes please. Just keep them at 15 t.res. Aliens have plenty of ways to deal with sentries. And with medkits and nanos and other things on t.res, spamming sentries isn't going to be nearly as desirable as it was before.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited July 2012
here's my solution:
<!--quoteo(post=1954188:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:52 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jul 27 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that turrets should be very powerful(perhaps with low damage for 0.5-1 second as the turret winds up into full RPM, so that aliens dont instantly die, they get a warning to evade, so its not cheap.) -
however I would say that its a better idea to have them either overheat or run out of ammo (before automatically reloading without player intervention)
So after firing for a while there would be break while they either cool down, or reload their ammo - This would make the lerk spores very useful, as the turrets would waste ammo/heat shooting at nothing and then open up an oppurtunity for aliens to destroy them.
You'd have a little red light on the turrets that starts to flash as the heat/ammo is about to stop the turret from firing - then a solid red light as turret is out of order. Then an orange light that starts to flash as the turret gets close to firing again - and a green light once its back online.
Aliens would spore the turrets up, wait for the red light, go in and do as much damage as possible, and then escape again as they start to come back online.
This would make the turrets useful and awesome, but not overpowered, and would add to the teamplay for the alien team. WIN! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
^THIS The current turret state was to stop turret spam Result: discourages use, reduces tactics, makes it so that they are useless, even in marine presence, which is when they are meant to be more useful, (THEY DO MORE DAMAGE BUT THEY WONT EVEN TARGET, = DO NO DAMAGE, = USELESS, SIMPLE MATH PEOPLE.)
maybe RoF increases over time, so it fire 2 bullet at start and and with 600 Bullets/Minute so aliens have to sneak around but cannot jump and run in front of it without getting hurt.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I've never liked the argument that sentries shouldn't be able to defend bases alone, since what is the point of a static defense structure if it can't actually defend anything? Most RTSs solve this issue by making static defenses effective alone, but with a clear counter (or counters).
Also, the sentries entire design is well suited for static defense (i.e. it requires resources, can only be built in limited locations, and is stationary) and poorly suited for supporting marines (i.e. the battle lines in NS2 fluctuate too much for a stationary structure). IMO, sentries need to be either 1. Removed 2. Made into a properly functioning static defense with specific counters (bilebomb, stomp, vortex would all work imo) 3. Swapped with the ARC so that the anti-player weapon is a movable structure that can support moving marine and the anti-structure weapon is a stationary structure that attacks other stationary structures.
Comments
Plus, I only play pub-games and never had a marine team that was not able to follow the coms command to "use the pg" in order to counter an ongoing alien attack at an outpost. Allowing sentries to singlehandedly defend outposts simply increases the "manpower" of the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole reason why most maps have vents is so that marines can not simply lock down corridors. I.e even if a corridor is locked down by marines with sentries, there will always be plenty of other ways IN for aliens. This is not the case for marines, at all, which only furthers my belief that you are making a very alien-biased case against sentries here. When a corridor is blocked off for marines early on, there's only so many other routes they can take. Routes that will be constantly contested by skulks and other aliens. (Giving the marine team very limited space for expansion or god forbid alien RT harassment)
You make it seem as if a single sentry will shut skulks out of the game, when smart positioning and movement will easily allow skulks to 'surpass' small amounts of sentries. Not to mention that once leap comes in, it becomes even easier to get into the 'blind spots' that are almost ALWAYS present. And that's only talking skulks. A single 30 p.res lerk would suffice in breaking up a corridor with multiple sentries and no marines protecting them. Then when spikes, bilebomb, fades, onos, stomp and vortex come into play, any amount of sentries that aren't supported by marines are NOT going to be an issue WHATSOEVER.
As for rooms or base filled with sentries, at which point we are talking 50+ t.res invested on just sentry turrets alone. That would require a team effort yes. How exactly is that unacceptable? A single skulk should be able to deal with 50+ t.res worth of defenses? (Like is the case in this build really) Is that what you are implying? Gorges can effectively lock down areas for free, combined with a single whip (10 p.res for gorge + 10 t.res for a single whip) you can lock off SEVERAL marines, if not the entire team, from taking over an area early on. SURELY you can see the ridiculous double standard here?
It infuriates me to see so many faulty balance assumptions all piled up in one thread. And to realise that these are the kind of faulty perspectives that also seem to influence the UWE design decisions. Your beef is with sentry spam, yet instead of addressing ONLY sentry spam (which mind you UWE already did to an extend by allowing lerk gas to block them, giving bilebomb back to gorges, etc) you make these ridiculous assessments that only serve to completely nullify even the individual sentry turrets simply because YOU, a vocal minority on this forum, don't like having them in the game at all. This while at the same time, these avid sentry haters don't seem to mind a (at least what should be from their perspective) MUCH WORSE mechanic being in place for aliens and gorges.
But the concept of a tough, high accuracy, low damage sentry I like a lot.
[...]It's an important part of the RTS mechanics, and it's an important part of Marine gameplay in NS 1 just as well. Fighting off a few sentries isn't necessarily boring or annoying, it only becomes a painful chore if they are spammed.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1953592:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]Sentry spam is not a good thing, and turret farms were a common problem in NS1, though I only really encountered them when the Marines were turtling in their base for those last few minutes or on siege maps.
I feel like most of the complaints that turrets <i>were</i> too effective was that they couldn't run in to the marine base and simply chew on their armory or IPs, or take out a phase gate with no problems. A sentry is meant to fix these things, they're meant to be static defenses that can deny entire rooms from skulk rushes or harassment from skulks. They currently cannot do their job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^Kudos to these posts!
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"How are aliens supposed to win?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking right? You do know that aliens win 3 out of every 4 games right now, and have for a few <b><i>YEARS</b></i> since NS2 has been in closed alpha/beta, right? Aliens have no problems breaking through a room guarded by sentries. LoS problems, Lerk gas, Fade vortex, Onos stomp, and a Gorge's bilebombs can easily, <u>easily</u> take down a room full of sentries undefended. The point of a sentry is to prevent harassment or a single alien from running into a room and chewing on the PG for a few minutes.
How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries should never be used as area denial.
* A short deterrent to give the marines time to react before the phase gate is attacked, YES!
* A buff for marines the defend an area, YES!
But NEVER in anyway a static AI which shuts up an area for aliens. There is simply no way to make this not op, because you can slowly advance and secure everything with your sentries. This is totally not fun to fight against as aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS? The turrets are not meant to be "no fun allowed" buildings, but they <i>are</i> meant to defend, and stop, skulk attacks and rushes. <b>Skulks</b> should not be able to take down a room with 5-6 turrets with no support from other life forms. This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it.
<!--quoteo(post=1953598:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 25 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->piratedave has analyzed it the right way. As long as they can be used as area denial, they will be used for that even if they have to be spammed.
Just making them not placeable in the firecone of other sentries would really help this issue. Than we can start to slightly increase their hp to make them useful again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.
I'm not 100% on this, but even 1 GL against 1 Whip you kill the Whip pretty easily - rate of fire is higher than the reflect rate. So a couple rines with GL spam is alot of grenades going thru, which is alot of dead whips, especially with the nutty range GL grenade damage has.
Remove robotics requirement (depending on skulk design).
Limit 3 sentries per power node.
Comm chairs increase limit to 8 for the power node that the comm chair is in.
Sentries will need a lot of work but I think the above may be a good start. I don't think sentries can be adequately balanced ever without some sort of cap like hydras. Remains to be seen whether or not whips would need a cap too, I'm pretty sure ARCs are good enough to counter any sort of whip spam strategy but I guess you'll just have to wait and see how the meta game plays out. I do think aliens have enough counters to them, there should be some sort of strategy other than mindless skulk/fade spam.
It would also help marines out a bit in the early game with the skulks zerging the infantry portals. Given that all the resource towers are built by cysts that means that the entire alien team is free to attack whatever they please whilst marines have to go out and manually build the towers which means they can't defend and/or have to choose between defending a resource tower or losing the game. A sentry or two in the base early on would help make up for the marines that are going out to build towers.
7 bites to destroy a sentry
2 onos hits to reduce a sentry from 100% to 5% (3 onos hits to destroy)
2 gorge bilebombs will destroy a sentry (1 to take it to 50% then another to finish it off)
sentries are buggy as all hell, you can actually go up to a sentry and if you are right up to it ... it often wont shoot you .... this is especially noticeable with the onos and the fade
I noticed sentries dont shoot clogs, they will shoot at aliens behind clogs though. I managed to destroy a sentry by building a hydra above it lol.
I placed 10 sentries in a room with covering fire ... and i cleared them all out with a single onos.
I also noticed that leap is extremely effective at getting past sentries.
That maybe the current state, but that will change.
Hive rooms shouldn't be able to be defend without the help of aliens. Same goes for the marines. Which have already better ways to defend their base, since they don't spawn as a instant kill. They have the phase gates which allow them to return within seconds to their base. And most importantly they have the beacon, which returns all living marines to the base within seconds and speeds up the spawn of the marines which are currently respawning.
Aliens on the other hand, die a lot in cross fire and GLs when they spawn, they spawn even without upgrades and cant just pick up a weapon to be more useful. Hell you have even to be lucky to respawn in the hive which is under attack since it impossible to change between eggs and spawn often in a hive which is very important seconds away from the hive which is under attack.
And you really want Sentrys that are able to defend the marine base alone? I just have to ask you in return, you're joking right?
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shoot the damn whip from the distance, or set it a flame than it won't be able to throw back the grenades. A gorge isn't able to heal against two marines. Clogs are also a joke if you are more than 1 marine so are hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS? The turrets are not meant to be "no fun allowed" buildings, but they <i>are</i> meant to defend, and stop, skulk attacks and rushes. <b>Skulks</b> should not be able to take down a room with 5-6 turrets with no support from other life forms. This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is NS2, not NS1! Things are supposed to change. If the hive is undefended this: "This would be like a single marine with no JP, backup, just a rifle, going into the newly built Alien hive and destroying it." is possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 25 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK he wasn't talking about nerfing them more, he was against to powerful buffs for them. That they shouldn't be made to powerful again.
<a href="http://youtu.be/CHrzq2KJTT8" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/CHrzq2KJTT8</a>
in the new build, which is 215.
As you can see.. well.. they have an extremely large amount of trouble targetting anything doing strafeis. so essentialy, EXTREMELY USELESS, so hp, or tracking speed, pick and choose or take them out cos im not spending another 10 res on these useless sods again.
You people who are saying turrets are good now, are extremely delusioned.
My suggestions to stop turret spam or at least prevent its extreme effectiveness (which, aparently, is a problem)without ###### on the people who don't spam them.
15-20 res, make spamming turrets EXPENSIVE, not Stupidly pointless as it is now,
at least 600-700 hp, maybe 200-300 armor minimum if you still want to reduce the hp/armor. It seriously only takes 7 bites from a skulk to kill one turret That's barely 3 seconds.
Bring back structural energy, and make it so that turrets take energy to shoot, so they can shoot orever, but when they run out o energy, they will power down until they have like 30% of their max energy. which could bring in a use for power packs, faster energy regeneration. instead of 15 res or one building. which is nice, but seriously.
Theres hundreds o more fun ways to fix this 'problem', same with hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in the new build, which is 215.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great, so they admit sentries are utter crap and then just leave it broken and further nerf marines in other areas. I'm not a marine fanboy at all, but I can't help to get frustrated and disappointed every time I pick up marines for what generally always becomes a game of desperate struggling against this game's poor balance and design. Heck, playing aliens just feels cheesy at the moment.
I wish this would be true. Sadly there are many rooms with less than 3 ways into them. This is map dependent but I think we both agree, that there should be at least 3 ways to get into every room on a map. More so if weldable doors are involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not the case for marines, at all, which only furthers my belief that you are making a very alien-biased case against sentries here. When a corridor is blocked off for marines early on, there's only so many other routes they can take. Routes that will be constantly contested by skulks and other aliens. (Giving the marine team very limited space for expansion or god forbid alien RT harassment)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is right and based on the asymmetric teams. Marines are supposed to shoot their ways up to the alien hives. Aliens (because of melee) are supposed to use sneakier tactics.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You make it seem as if a single sentry will shut skulks out of the game, when smart positioning and movement will easily allow skulks to 'surpass' small amounts of sentries. Not to mention that once leap comes in, it becomes even easier to get into the 'blind spots' that are almost ALWAYS present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only was it very simple to save an area with 2 or 3 sentries without a blind spot, they also were so strong that you needed more than one skulk live to discover the blind spot. If there was even one.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's only talking skulks. A single 30 p.res lerk would suffice in breaking up a corridor with multiple sentries and no marines protecting them. Then when spikes, bilebomb, fades, onos, stomp and vortex come into play, any amount of sentries that aren't supported by marines are NOT going to be an issue WHATSOEVER.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the problem. In all your skulk-examples you are talking of a skulk vs lone sentries. This is nearly never the case. (And when, not for long.) If the sentry health is increased to old levels, you can't get down any base as skulk. Because there will be a marine killing you even if you got a blind spot.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for rooms or base filled with sentries, at which point we are talking 50+ t.res invested on just sentry turrets alone. That would require a team effort yes. How exactly is that unacceptable? A single skulk should be able to deal with 50+ t.res worth of defenses? (Like is the case in this build really) Is that what you are implying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem (and this is where we differ) is that this play style should never be possible. If you got 5 sentries in a room and they are able to defend this room without marines, you have increased the "manpower" of the marine team. The marines that aren't needed anymore to defend this position can attack the aliens. The aliens have to react to this. They have to stop the marines or they will just roll over a hive. Right now the aliens can sacrifice one skulk to try to bring down an expansion while marines are pushing else where. But if this one skulk has no chance to get into this 50T-Res sentry-fort, the aliens have no chance to gain any ground. If they attack the fort with all players, the marines will defend there and also have the 5 sentries as support. This way even the whole alien team can't get into that base. I don't like the whole concept of sentries that can shut tight an area. It isn't needed and it isn't fun in my eyes.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorges can effectively lock down areas for free, combined with a single whip (10 p.res for gorge + 10 t.res for a single whip) you can lock off SEVERAL marines, if not the entire team, from taking over an area early on. SURELY you can see the ridiculous double standard here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. The gorge needs to stick with its base in order to make it effective. This is one player that isn't on the battlefield else where. You are talking of AI defense dropped by the com. The gorge is totally different. You can even kill a gorge in it's hydra-fort as single marine. Sure, you will die by the hydras after that. But this are -10res for the gorge and nothing left for the marine. If there are 2 marines the other one can kill the hydras after the first killed the gorge and simply take over the room. This is really no comparison to room secured by sentry spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1953629:date=Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 25 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It infuriates me to see so many faulty balance assumptions all piled up in one thread. And to realise that these are the kind of faulty perspectives that also seem to influence the UWE design decisions. Your beef is with sentry spam, yet instead of addressing ONLY sentry spam (which mind you UWE already did to an extend by allowing lerk gas to block them, giving bilebomb back to gorges, etc) you make these ridiculous assessments that only serve to completely nullify even the individual sentry turrets simply because YOU, a vocal minority on this forum, don't like having them in the game at all. This while at the same time, these avid sentry haters don't seem to mind a (at least what should be from their perspective) MUCH WORSE mechanic being in place for aliens and gorges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, that you think I shouldn't voice my opinion. Or that I'm just trying to argue for the alien team. (I'm playing both teams equally.)
If you can't agree with me about this, there is no problem. Bring up your arguments, I bring mine. Others have to decide what sounds logical. Don't think that I have more (or any) impact on the dev than you. It's all about logical arguments. So there is no need in pillorying me for voicing my opinion.
This is right and I only argument against sentries, that are so powerful that they deny the aliens parts of the map completely. They should be only a deterrent from the phase gate. Long enough for the marines to react.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many marines does it take to push into the alien hive? A lot. <b>A LOT</b> because of the way clogs work, they're resistant to explosive damage, and with a single whip, GLs are useless. With a gorge healing the clogs and hydras, a few rifles can't do a thing, so sieges are necessary, which is a MASSIVE investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only are you forgetting that there are things like ARCs, but you also don't look at it as asymmetric as it is. The marines have the guns, they roll somewhere and kill things. Aliens best choice is to flank the enemy and play stealthy. Denying them rooms by powerful sentries will force them to use lesser routes in a map and therefor, in the worst case have to attack frontal. The marines have a much different play style. They don't flank an alien position, they roll over it.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries have always worked that way, but because they needed a turret factory (power node) to function, it was easy to focus it down and make all the turrets useless. You think it's fun as a person on the Marine team to constantly have a presence defending a locked-down command node against SKULKS?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. It is more fun to react to the attacks of the enemy team than to play against AI buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1953763:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 26 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i>Are you seriously suggesting that we further nerf sentry guns right now?</b></i> They take <i><u>seven</i></u> bites from a single Skulk to take down. That's not even enough time for a Marine to react and kill said skulk, forget about it if there's two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. If you had read this thread and my posts, you would have known, that I'm for a slight hp buff. (Increasing it from 2 seconds for a skulk to bring it down, to 5 seconds.) The only thing I want to nerf was the possibility to use sentries for area denial. (idea: Not placeable in the fire cone of another sentry.) Because I think, they should be useful as buff for defending marines and as deterrent for aliens, to stop them attacking the pg before the marines can react.
This is exactly the fallacy of your argument. If marines invest 50 t.res in building a fortress out of a place, that's 50 t.res not invested elsewhere. That 50 t.res could have gone in marine offensive power, but it didn't. And while single skulks may be denied of the area, a small number of aliens (preferably existing of multiple lifeforms) will be more than enough to do the trick. Especially if no marines are present. A larger amount of turrets alone, even with the old sentry stats, NEVER could defend an area by itself without marines present. To claim this would be a gross misrepresentation of reality. (but such views do explain why sentries are utterly garbage today)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is right and based on the asymmetric teams. Marines are supposed to shoot their ways up to the alien hives. Aliens (because of melee) are supposed to use sneakier tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Once the second hive is up, which is usually before the 5 minute mark in any game any way, aliens can just as well confront marines head on. Heck even without the second hive I regularly see aliens just go head-on versus marines and still maintain a 'break-even' point. (1 kill for a death) This is a very favourable situation for aliens, since while they are applying this pressure on marine map control head-on, the alien commander is just quietly expanding without needing any players present.
Marines being able to hold territory with sentries to some extent is an important method to counterbalance the aliens being able to expand without needing any players present. I consider myself an experienced commander in this game, and the only time (not counting obviously stacked teams) I managed to effectively hold map control as marines in the mid-game stage was when I could pop down a few sentries so that my marines could stay grouped and focus their efforts elsewhere, allowing marine aggression. (Or that at the very least a single marine would suffice in holding areas with a sentry there too)
This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Once the second hive is up, which is usually before the 5 minute mark in any game any way, aliens can just as well confront marines head on. Heck even without the second hive I regularly see aliens just go head-on versus marines and still maintain a 'break-even' point. (1 kill for a death) This is a very favourable situation for aliens, since while they are applying this pressure on marine map control head-on, the alien commander is just quietly expanding without needing any players present.
Marines being able to hold territory with sentries to some extent is an important method to counterbalance the aliens being able to expand without needing any players present. I consider myself an experienced commander in this game, and the only time (not counting obviously stacked teams) I managed to effectively hold map control as marines in the mid-game stage was when I could pop down a few sentries so that my marines could stay grouped and focus their efforts elsewhere, allowing marine aggression. (Or that at the very least a single marine would suffice in holding areas with a sentry there too)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all dandy in theory but practice would indicate that this is not the case in NS 2 today. Alien buildings need way to long to build on their own if you want to be able to compete with marines you need gorges to speed up building RTs and the hive. Since infestation sight has been removed completely it is also easy for marines to camp infested but not yet dropped RTs and wait for the drop and than kill the RT within a few seconds.
Also 5 sentries were able to defend a room against one or two medium skilled skulks and often injure high skilled skulks so much or force them to position them self so that they are easily be shot by marines that come by. In combination with mines a nearly perfect defense which needed a little maintenance (welding, replacing mines) was possible.
If aliens want to hold a position they need a gorge which has to stay at his defense line almost all the time and if more than one marine is attacking there he needs help of other aliens. Marines just shouldn't be able to defend positions with sentries alone. They get PG, JP which allows them to put pressure on because they can travel very fast from point to point if needed.
Apparantly turrets are fine as is according to UWE
if you want to hear then go to 1:27:30 --->>> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/325863743" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/325863743</a>
its a shame :(
Yea, it's a problem that public commanders waste res on turrets early in the game forgo'ing upgrades, but players will learn and understand that is a pretty bold mistake fairly soon. And turrets being only a minor deterrent, or light defense structure is all they really should be.
Sad that this is the opinion of a playtester. Basically what you're saying is that sentry turrets shouldn't be a viable option early on in the game (I loled because they're so weak you'd think they would ONLY be viable early game to begin with), or at any stage really, unless the comm has res to waste. Hugely disappointed with this decision.
I personally, think that turrets should simply be put back to how they were - they weren't broken so why were they tampered with??
Yea, it's a problem that public commanders waste res on turrets early in the game forgo'ing upgrades, but players will learn and understand that is a pretty bold mistake fairly soon. And turrets being only a minor deterrent, or light defense structure is all they really should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it a mistake?
I actually look at it as a different tactic and possible a good one if you have a marine base that's located very near an alien spawn because we've all seen the damage a continous skulk rush can do.
It seems that everyone wants the game to play out the exact same way everytime (do this first, this next, etc), but I enjoy a different round each time.
Yes please. Just keep them at 15 t.res. Aliens have plenty of ways to deal with sentries. And with medkits and nanos and other things on t.res, spamming sentries isn't going to be nearly as desirable as it was before.
What should be the ideal amount, five games out of ten, 100% ?
<!--quoteo(post=1954188:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:52 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jul 27 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954188"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that turrets should be very powerful(perhaps with low damage for 0.5-1 second as the turret winds up into full RPM, so that aliens dont instantly die, they get a warning to evade, so its not cheap.) -
however I would say that its a better idea to have them either overheat or run out of ammo (before automatically reloading without player intervention)
So after firing for a while there would be break while they either cool down, or reload their ammo - This would make the lerk spores very useful, as the turrets would waste ammo/heat shooting at nothing and then open up an oppurtunity for aliens to destroy them.
You'd have a little red light on the turrets that starts to flash as the heat/ammo is about to stop the turret from firing - then a solid red light as turret is out of order. Then an orange light that starts to flash as the turret gets close to firing again - and a green light once its back online.
Aliens would spore the turrets up, wait for the red light, go in and do as much damage as possible, and then escape again as they start to come back online.
This would make the turrets useful and awesome, but not overpowered, and would add to the teamplay for the alien team.
WIN! :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current turret state was to stop turret spam
Result: discourages use, reduces tactics, makes it so that they are useless, even in marine presence, which is when they are meant to be more useful, (THEY DO MORE DAMAGE BUT THEY WONT EVEN TARGET, = DO NO DAMAGE, = USELESS, SIMPLE MATH PEOPLE.)
Also, the sentries entire design is well suited for static defense (i.e. it requires resources, can only be built in limited locations, and is stationary) and poorly suited for supporting marines (i.e. the battle lines in NS2 fluctuate too much for a stationary structure). IMO, sentries need to be either
1. Removed
2. Made into a properly functioning static defense with specific counters (bilebomb, stomp, vortex would all work imo)
3. Swapped with the ARC so that the anti-player weapon is a movable structure that can support moving marine and the anti-structure weapon is a stationary structure that attacks other stationary structures.