How about we just make sentries be dropped by marines?
Basically the a marine can buy a sentry at the armoury, which replaces his primary weapon. He can place the sentry anywhere and pack it back up, but if he dies the sentry self destructs. If you make it slightly more expensive than buying a shotgun it would become a genuine tactical decision to pick it over the shotgun (as you'll only have a pistol and knife to directly defend yourself now).
Of course if you were to do this you'd have to make the sentries a bit more powerful than they are now. However it gets around the 'waste team res on sentries, and not upgrades' problem and you've got a hard limit of sentries that can never go above the number of marines on the team.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
the fov is actualy 160 fyi. Turrets are worse and have no use now. unless you meant after your suggestion. they don't lock on or track anything correctly, they are pretty much only good when hidden extremely well, but even then gorge bile bomb is like extremely huge so they dont have to aim that, and therefore turrets are extremely unhideable vs gorges. Also, turrets are meant to be a tactical option, if you spend res on turrets, you don't spend res elsewhere. Atm is a well i cant buy anything else but arcs and turrets so i might aswell spend the res crap thing.
lower their DPS Increase tracking so they can track fast lerks keep their hp the same
Sentries alone will be easy pickings, but with players nearby they fulfill their role as support structures by applying a steady stream of low dps on a skulk/lerk.
this way they are less effective against onos about the same effectiveness against fades less effective against gorges much more effective against lerks a little bit more effective against leap skulks a little bit less effective against normal skulks
In a sense they become a counter to lerk and a deterrent for skulks.
I had a fade <i>trapped in our base</i> because I blasted him with a shotgun, blinking around like a crazed ape-fade because he couldn't leave; presumably because his health was too low.
Why? There were two turrets pointed at the door.
He eventually died.
Turrets are useless if you don't know how to use them or when to build them.
Particularly for defending against an Onos they're huge. You have 3 turrets. Do you break the turrets? Do you risk further injury and take the gate hoping to cut them off? Is there an observatory? Do you have <i>time</i> to break the turrets- even if it only takes 1 click? If there are three turrets and as many marines shooting at you, you might not.
I had a double post <i>trapped in our php</i> because I clicked post twice, blinking around like a crazed ape-post because I couldn't delete; presumably because his index finger was too spazzy.
Why? There were two posts pointed at the door.
He eventually cried.
Two posts are useless if you don't know how to post once or when to stop clicking.
Particularly for defending against a a Double Post they're huge. You have 2 posts. Do you delete a post? Do you risk further injury and make a complete fool? Is there a third post? Do you have <i>time</i> to be a clown- even if it only takes five minutes? If there are three posts and as many moderators leering at you, you might not.
I've always felt and said that the sentries need a COMPLETE overhaul... I can't believe the issues with how sentries work has not been spotted.
Not powerful enough = you require more = they have to be cheaper to be useful = spam = poor p2p gameplay
Too powerful = need to be more expensive = if you risk that many resources on 1 you have to buy many = a slower paced game that involves locking down rooms with 3/4 sentries = spam
Because every map is different, this scales really badly. It is basically impossible to find the mid way point between these two ends of the equation.
Quake 2 Weapons Factory did a great job on balancing this (it was a capture the flag game) which relied on several forms of AI defence. <b> 1. A grenade that when thrown, floated, and had a 100% hit rate. It weakened the opponent lightly, and could be destroyed in one shot. Players spawned with this.</b>
<b>2. A laser trip which pretty much insta killed an enemy. It basically acted as a wall to players if you couldn't jump/duck under it. But as you can spot it, it is not overpowered</b> <b> 3. A sentry gun, but there was only every 1 (max 2) on the map and this was used for guarding the flag room.
4. A proximity alarm that warned players if an enemy was near by.</b>
The big problem that marines have in this game is map control, which is why you need some sort of static defence. But I don't think sentry guns work in this respect, not in their current form, and I don't think they will ever be an answer.
There need to be solutions that delay aliens from destroying extractors, and hurt them in the process - but that give marines a chance to respond.
So instead of running in and munching an extractor in say, 30 seconds, they have to chomp on a floating grenade without being shot and reducing their health by say... 30% a shot, and then having to munch on a extractor and tackle a marine.
This would really help the marine vs alien gameplay, and wouldn't offend it. Mines are just as bad, they shouldn't explode, there are too many explosions in this game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Particularly for defending against an Onos they're huge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Onos are laughable in their current state, I don't even see why you'd need sentries. Not to mention the sentries die in like 3 onos hits.
<!--quoteo(post=1954797:date=Jul 29 2012, 05:49 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jul 29 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this way they are less effective against onos about the same effectiveness against fades less effective against gorges much more effective against lerks a little bit more effective against leap skulks a little bit less effective against normal skulks
In a sense they become a counter to lerk and a deterrent for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The armor system in NS2 already makes sentries laughable to an Onos.
A sentry does about 125 DPS. A sentry does "light" damage. This means that every point of armor that a unit has, it's treated as 4 HP.
An Onos with no upgrades has 700 health, 600 armor. 600 x 4 = 2400 + 700 = 3100. An Onos has 3100 health to a sentry. At 125 DPS, it would take a sentry 24.8 seconds to kill an Onos with no upgrades. That is an insanely long time for an engagement, in ANY FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=1955016:date=Jul 30 2012, 03:31 AM:name=Dimeinurear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dimeinurear @ Jul 30 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The armor system in NS2 already makes sentries laughable to an Onos.
A sentry does about 125 DPS. A sentry does "light" damage. This means that every point of armor that a unit has, it's treated as 4 HP.
An Onos with no upgrades has 700 health, 600 armor. 600 x 4 = 2400 + 700 = 3100. An Onos has 3100 health to a sentry. At 125 DPS, it would take a sentry 24.8 seconds to kill an Onos with no upgrades. That is an insanely long time for an engagement, in ANY FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentry aren't supposed to be able to kill a onos, especially not a onos, it's the closest thing to a tank there is in NS2 currently. But sentries "increase" the damage output of marines while defending the bases.
<!--quoteo(post=1955019:date=Jul 30 2012, 05:45 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 30 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentry aren't supposed to be able to kill a onos, especially not a onos, it's the closest thing to a tank there is in NS2 currently. But sentries "increase" the damage output of marines while defending the bases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1, in NS1 onos even got a special resistance to sentry damage. Sentries are still to weak for the price they cost though.
Long-winded perspective post! <b>tl;dr: Turrets in NS1 had serious limitations, but were still powerful area-of-denial weapons allowing Marines to hold regions with minimal player presence. However, high costs made them not feasible on competitive play except in siege situations.</b>
This was the tradeoff in NS1:
Turrets were limited to being around the Turret Factory. This also meant that unless you placed 3 turrets to cover all sides of the TF a Skulk could get behind and take them out with minimal damage. A full TF + 3 turrets was 45 Res.
A skulk vs turret meant the Skulk Lost. The only force that could 1v1 a Turret was a Fade (getting low) and an Onos (or bilebomb Gorges from around corners). Gorge healing and team efforts could overpower the turrets (Umbra being especially helpful, as was the Onos taking 50% less damage from turrets already). The Onos dealing bonus damage to buildings means the TF went down in around 15 seconds while taking negligible damage.
In effect, you spent 45 res (very costly) to have a fairly powerful area-of-denial setup, shutting down lone Skulks, Gorges, and even Lerks. The main benefit over Mines was the amount of time to take it down and that it covered a range helping lock down hallways.
Since turrets and siege were tied to the TF, placing turrets at a siege location was common. It helped protect the setup and was a transitional investment while the TF upgraded. Since the TF was already there for siege, might as well utilize regular turrets too. They also would help add firepower when defending the siege location from the inevitable Alien assault.
Competitive Play saw Marines quickly responding to areas and using Mines to deny Skulks from taking down areas, ignoring turrets completely. 45 Res was an upgrade, and resources were tight to get Weapons Lv2 and Armor Lv1 up before Fades and Hive2 was dropped. Contrast to Mines which, due to Res-For-Kills, could pay for themselves on Skulks who didn't notice the mine and were much cheaper. You only needed 1-2 mines per res node to slow down the Skulks.
Pub play often saw them used in forward bases around PG setups, forcing assaults on them to take a sizeable effort from the Aliens including higher lifeforms instead of ninja assaults of Skulks. Or to lock down an important hallway. Also strongly used during sieges as mentioned previously.
Major changes in NS2:
Area denial not only includes protecting the Res node. You also need to guard the Power Node. Many, many more options for shutting down turrets. Turret limited arcs is only a partial recreation of the TF blind spot. No longer requiring the TF removes the cap on # in an area without further investment. It took a lot of time to setup a TF firebase, and a sizeable initial res investment before any turrets could even be placed. No longer requiring TF for ARCs means less incentive to setup a stationary siege location and protect with turrets.
Yeah, that was NS1. But you have to consider that the maps are much smaller in NS2. 2 good placed sentry-bases can lock up most parts of a map. The smaller map also means, that marines can move much faster to an attacked base, making such area-denial-sentries in NS2 nearly unbreakable. Even if you got a blind spot, the marine will be there before you can do enough damage. The sentries may be weak right now. But the NS1 sentry-mechanic of area denial would not fit in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1955138:date=Jul 30 2012, 10:26 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 30 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, that was NS1. But you have to consider that the maps are much smaller in NS2. 2 good placed sentry-bases can lock up most parts of a map. The smaller map also means, that marines can move much faster to an attacked base, making such area-denial-sentries in NS2 nearly unbreakable. Even if you got a blind spot, the marine will be there before you can do enough damage. The sentries may be weak right now. But the NS1 sentry-mechanic of area denial would not fit in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, at least in current incarnation. Plus Marines can cover the distances faster with sprint for fast responses. We clearly can't clone the NS1 strength due to the changes in core mechanics in NS2. But I feel like increasing their cost could help. Making it a legitimate restriction in map movement but with a major cost and cap (perhaps limit # within radius like NS1 Alien OCs?) could help balance it.
I wonder if the smaller feel of the maps is here to stay. It does force more engagements, but I liked the strategic maneuvering in NS1 too. I had always assumed the early smaller maps were due to not having enough time to make expansive maps. Hm, but that's another topic altogether.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The small map size in NS2 is really just a temporary side effect of the performance issues. It makes little sense to create a full 32 player-size map, when the best servers can really only handle a playercount of roughly 16-18 players.
My guess is that would only buff the turrets in central bases. I strongly doubt spending the extra res for a 2nd forward Arms Lab buff on a few turrets would be worth it.
Still, would make turrets in the start extra potent.
1 Turret = 100% x 1 = 100% 2 Turrets = 60% x 2 = 120%
3 Turrets = 70% x 3 = 150%
4 Turrets = 30% x 4 = 120% 5 Turrets = 20% x 5 = 100% 6 Turrets = 15% x 6 = 90% 7 Turrets = 10% x 7 = 70% 8 Turrets.... ...
This System in each room. Most DMG with 3 Turrets,more Turrets,Less DMG... This prevent the Turret-spam...
(sry for My Bad englisch)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would be not intuitive, that you build more turrets and not every turrets does the same damage and that if you build more that 3 turrets it becomes even worse, you are losing damage.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
My idea, bring back a sort of energy system that defines how effective a structure is, turrets could have 100 energy, 1 energy = 1 round, but it requires a minimum of 50 energy to start spinning, this makes it so that turrets are both effective, but cannot stop major assaults (send in a few skulks or oni to soak up dems bullets) This gives a tactical approach to turret usage and attackage. How do yous thinks?
<!--quoteo(post=1955485:date=Jul 31 2012, 09:29 PM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jul 31 2012, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea, bring back a sort of energy system that defines how effective a structure is, turrets could have 100 energy, 1 energy = 1 round, but it requires a minimum of 50 energy to start spinning, this makes it so that turrets are both effective, but cannot stop major assaults (send in a few skulks or oni to soak up dems bullets) This gives a tactical approach to turret usage and attackage. How do yous thinks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1955218:date=Jul 31 2012, 03:11 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jul 31 2012, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->have you guys thought about turret buffs too?
e.g. placing an obs near the turrets makes them target quicker or further or placing an arms lab there makes them do more damage etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea for the tower defence mod someone should make.
excuse me guys, but may i ask something as to what gorges are supposed to be?
i believed that gorges were supposed to be supports, not a tanky cuddly alien. so when i heard that gorges could build hydras for free, i was happy
i wasn't so happy anymore when i was marine fighting the gorge, one whole clip, and if the gorge has hydras, clogs, CRAG and whip, 2 or 3 clips still might not kill the gorge, specially if the gorge then has other aliens nearby (gorge, skulks or whatever). then it doesn't seem like gorge becomes support anymore. it literally allows one gorge to block access to one area.. i don't see marines capable of doing that, with or without the 15 res turrets. GORGES AINT SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE in battle vs marine. they are fat and cuddly, so they should be able to somewhat escape, but not kill marine(s).
so, instead of comparing between aliens and marines, please just stay on topic: the turret, What needs to be fixed, how or even why.
the summary of SOME of the resolution from previous posts shows that this can be done by either:
1. increase the effectiveness of the turrets, either by health, aiming, damage, range, firing arc, or any combination in between, TRes cost stays high. Maybe limit the number per area, with optional variables of power nodes (+2 maybe), CC (+3 maybe) or extra Factories (+3 max maybe), if too effective. note that, even lerks with spikes, is capable of killing sentries easily well outside sentry range, even if in range, sentries are too weak.
2. decrease the cost of the turrets, either in build time or resources.
3. an upgradeable function of turrets, meaning a cheaper initial build of turrets, where the global turret upgrades are done from factory (health, damage, firing arc, speed, tracking, etc).
4. get an improved backup for the turret as in cheaper or more effective mines, or nearby marines/obs/factory/MACs increasing some effectiveness.
5. optional fix of allowing the turret to actually damage alien buildings that is in range (like how some posts claim that clog and hydra isn't attacked by turrets, yet the hydra can hurt the turrets, not sure about whips).
EDIT: 6. Energy values as variables for turrets
7. the counterpart hydra being nerfed in some way
please do not start comparing about tech lost from alien buildings vs marine buildings, there's a diff thread for that one!
As we can see, there are a number of possible ways to do this, and there's even more not yet written
A single marine can kill a healing gorge with one LMG clip. Sure he dies because of the hydras after that. But the gorge lost 10pres, the marine 0.
The only problem right now is, that most marines are afraid to sacrifice themselves in order to hunt the gorge down. Instead they are standing around a corner and shooting the hydras, which are healed by the gorge (and I have seen this going on for >10minutes). If the people can't think one step ahead and see how to break a gorge base, they deserve to lose. I laugh every time I see 3 marines getting owned by a single gorge, because they don't realize that they just need to push. Don't shoot the hydras. Shoot the gorge. It's dead simple. 2 marines can kill him in 3 seconds. No matter of hydras or not. One marine will survive and can THAN kill the hydras from a save position.
Also there is no need to argue with symmetry. The marines don't need an ability for area denial just because the aliens have some. It's the asymmetry of the game. Thats why marines have more ways to break through areas than aliens have.
<!--quoteo(post=1955529:date=Aug 1 2012, 05:17 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 1 2012, 05:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A single marine can kill a healing gorge with one LMG clip. Sure he dies because of the hydras after that. But the gorge lost 10pres, the marine 0.
The only problem right now is, that most marines are afraid to sacrifice themselves in order to hunt the gorge down. Instead they are standing around a corner and shooting the hydras, which are healed by the gorge (and I have seen this going on for >10minutes). If the people can't think one step ahead and see how to break a gorge base, they deserve to lose. I laugh every time I see 3 marines getting owned by a single gorge, because they don't realize that they just need to push. Don't shoot the hydras. Shoot the gorge. It's dead simple. 2 marines can kill him in 3 seconds. No matter of hydras or not. One marine will survive and can THAN kill the hydras from a save position.
Also there is no need to argue with symmetry. The marines don't need an ability for area denial just because the aliens have some. It's the asymmetry of the game. Thats why marines have more ways to break through areas than aliens have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Basically the a marine can buy a sentry at the armoury, which replaces his primary weapon. He can place the sentry anywhere and pack it back up, but if he dies the sentry self destructs. If you make it slightly more expensive than buying a shotgun it would become a genuine tactical decision to pick it over the shotgun (as you'll only have a pistol and knife to directly defend yourself now).
Of course if you were to do this you'd have to make the sentries a bit more powerful than they are now. However it gets around the 'waste team res on sentries, and not upgrades' problem and you've got a hard limit of sentries that can never go above the number of marines on the team.
keep 180° fov but if locked on to a target can turn a full 360° (upgrade maybe?)
increase it's engagement range by 5-10%
turrets are better and have a use now
Turrets are worse and have no use now. unless you meant after your suggestion.
they don't lock on or track anything correctly, they are pretty much only good when hidden extremely well, but even then gorge bile bomb is like extremely huge so they dont have to aim that, and therefore turrets are extremely unhideable vs gorges.
Also, turrets are meant to be a tactical option, if you spend res on turrets, you don't spend res elsewhere.
Atm is a well i cant buy anything else but arcs and turrets so i might aswell spend the res crap thing.
lower their DPS
Increase tracking so they can track fast lerks
keep their hp the same
Sentries alone will be easy pickings, but with players nearby they fulfill their role as support structures by applying a steady stream of low dps on a skulk/lerk.
this way they are less effective against onos
about the same effectiveness against fades
less effective against gorges
much more effective against lerks
a little bit more effective against leap skulks
a little bit less effective against normal skulks
In a sense they become a counter to lerk and a deterrent for skulks.
Why? There were two turrets pointed at the door.
He eventually died.
Turrets are useless if you don't know how to use them or when to build them.
Particularly for defending against an Onos they're huge. You have 3 turrets. Do you break the turrets? Do you risk further injury and take the gate hoping to cut them off? Is there an observatory? Do you have <i>time</i> to break the turrets- even if it only takes 1 click? If there are three turrets and as many marines shooting at you, you might not.
Why? There were two posts pointed at the door.
He eventually cried.
Two posts are useless if you don't know how to post once or when to stop clicking.
Particularly for defending against a a Double Post they're huge. You have 2 posts. Do you delete a post? Do you risk further injury and make a complete fool? Is there a third post? Do you have <i>time</i> to be a clown- even if it only takes five minutes? If there are three posts and as many moderators leering at you, you might not.
Not powerful enough = you require more = they have to be cheaper to be useful = spam = poor p2p gameplay
Too powerful = need to be more expensive = if you risk that many resources on 1 you have to buy many = a slower paced game that involves locking down rooms with 3/4 sentries = spam
Because every map is different, this scales really badly. It is basically impossible to find the mid way point between these two ends of the equation.
Quake 2 Weapons Factory did a great job on balancing this (it was a capture the flag game) which relied on several forms of AI defence.
<b>
1. A grenade that when thrown, floated, and had a 100% hit rate. It weakened the opponent lightly, and could be destroyed in one shot. Players spawned with this.</b>
<b>2. A laser trip which pretty much insta killed an enemy. It basically acted as a wall to players if you couldn't jump/duck under it. But as you can spot it, it is not overpowered</b>
<b>
3. A sentry gun, but there was only every 1 (max 2) on the map and this was used for guarding the flag room.
4. A proximity alarm that warned players if an enemy was near by.</b>
The big problem that marines have in this game is map control, which is why you need some sort of static defence. But I don't think sentry guns work in this respect, not in their current form, and I don't think they will ever be an answer.
There need to be solutions that delay aliens from destroying extractors, and hurt them in the process - but that give marines a chance to respond.
So instead of running in and munching an extractor in say, 30 seconds, they have to chomp on a floating grenade without being shot and reducing their health by say... 30% a shot, and then having to munch on a extractor and tackle a marine.
This would really help the marine vs alien gameplay, and wouldn't offend it. Mines are just as bad, they shouldn't explode, there are too many explosions in this game.
Onos are laughable in their current state, I don't even see why you'd need sentries. Not to mention the sentries die in like 3 onos hits.
about the same effectiveness against fades
less effective against gorges
much more effective against lerks
a little bit more effective against leap skulks
a little bit less effective against normal skulks
In a sense they become a counter to lerk and a deterrent for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The armor system in NS2 already makes sentries laughable to an Onos.
A sentry does about 125 DPS. A sentry does "light" damage. This means that every point of armor that a unit has, it's treated as 4 HP.
An Onos with no upgrades has 700 health, 600 armor. 600 x 4 = 2400 + 700 = 3100. An Onos has 3100 health to a sentry. At 125 DPS, it would take a sentry 24.8 seconds to kill an Onos with no upgrades. That is an insanely long time for an engagement, in ANY FPS.
A sentry does about 125 DPS. A sentry does "light" damage. This means that every point of armor that a unit has, it's treated as 4 HP.
An Onos with no upgrades has 700 health, 600 armor. 600 x 4 = 2400 + 700 = 3100. An Onos has 3100 health to a sentry. At 125 DPS, it would take a sentry 24.8 seconds to kill an Onos with no upgrades. That is an insanely long time for an engagement, in ANY FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentry aren't supposed to be able to kill a onos, especially not a onos, it's the closest thing to a tank there is in NS2 currently. But sentries "increase" the damage output of marines while defending the bases.
+1, in NS1 onos even got a special resistance to sentry damage. Sentries are still to weak for the price they cost though.
<b>tl;dr: Turrets in NS1 had serious limitations, but were still powerful area-of-denial weapons allowing Marines to hold regions with minimal player presence. However, high costs made them not feasible on competitive play except in siege situations.</b>
This was the tradeoff in NS1:
Turrets were limited to being around the Turret Factory. This also meant that unless you placed 3 turrets to cover all sides of the TF a Skulk could get behind and take them out with minimal damage. A full TF + 3 turrets was 45 Res.
A skulk vs turret meant the Skulk Lost. The only force that could 1v1 a Turret was a Fade (getting low) and an Onos (or bilebomb Gorges from around corners). Gorge healing and team efforts could overpower the turrets (Umbra being especially helpful, as was the Onos taking 50% less damage from turrets already). The Onos dealing bonus damage to buildings means the TF went down in around 15 seconds while taking negligible damage.
In effect, you spent 45 res (very costly) to have a fairly powerful area-of-denial setup, shutting down lone Skulks, Gorges, and even Lerks. The main benefit over Mines was the amount of time to take it down and that it covered a range helping lock down hallways.
Since turrets and siege were tied to the TF, placing turrets at a siege location was common. It helped protect the setup and was a transitional investment while the TF upgraded. Since the TF was already there for siege, might as well utilize regular turrets too. They also would help add firepower when defending the siege location from the inevitable Alien assault.
Competitive Play saw Marines quickly responding to areas and using Mines to deny Skulks from taking down areas, ignoring turrets completely. 45 Res was an upgrade, and resources were tight to get Weapons Lv2 and Armor Lv1 up before Fades and Hive2 was dropped. Contrast to Mines which, due to Res-For-Kills, could pay for themselves on Skulks who didn't notice the mine and were much cheaper. You only needed 1-2 mines per res node to slow down the Skulks.
Pub play often saw them used in forward bases around PG setups, forcing assaults on them to take a sizeable effort from the Aliens including higher lifeforms instead of ninja assaults of Skulks. Or to lock down an important hallway. Also strongly used during sieges as mentioned previously.
Major changes in NS2:
Area denial not only includes protecting the Res node. You also need to guard the Power Node.
Many, many more options for shutting down turrets.
Turret limited arcs is only a partial recreation of the TF blind spot.
No longer requiring the TF removes the cap on # in an area without further investment. It took a lot of time to setup a TF firebase, and a sizeable initial res investment before any turrets could even be placed.
No longer requiring TF for ARCs means less incentive to setup a stationary siege location and protect with turrets.
Right, at least in current incarnation. Plus Marines can cover the distances faster with sprint for fast responses. We clearly can't clone the NS1 strength due to the changes in core mechanics in NS2. But I feel like increasing their cost could help. Making it a legitimate restriction in map movement but with a major cost and cap (perhaps limit # within radius like NS1 Alien OCs?) could help balance it.
I wonder if the smaller feel of the maps is here to stay. It does force more engagements, but I liked the strategic maneuvering in NS1 too. I had always assumed the early smaller maps were due to not having enough time to make expansive maps. Hm, but that's another topic altogether.
e.g. placing an obs near the turrets makes them target quicker or further
or placing an arms lab there makes them do more damage etc
Still, would make turrets in the start extra potent.
1 Turret = 100% x 1 = 100%
2 Turrets = 60% x 2 = 120%
3 Turrets = 70% x 3 = 150%
4 Turrets = 30% x 4 = 120%
5 Turrets = 20% x 5 = 100%
6 Turrets = 15% x 6 = 90%
7 Turrets = 10% x 7 = 70%
8 Turrets....
...
This System in each room.
Most DMG with 3 Turrets,more Turrets,Less DMG...
This prevent the Turret-spam...
(sry for My Bad englisch)
1 Turret = 100% x 1 = 100%
2 Turrets = 60% x 2 = 120%
3 Turrets = 70% x 3 = 150%
4 Turrets = 30% x 4 = 120%
5 Turrets = 20% x 5 = 100%
6 Turrets = 15% x 6 = 90%
7 Turrets = 10% x 7 = 70%
8 Turrets....
...
This System in each room.
Most DMG with 3 Turrets,more Turrets,Less DMG...
This prevent the Turret-spam...
(sry for My Bad englisch)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would be not intuitive, that you build more turrets and not every turrets does the same damage and that if you build more that 3 turrets it becomes even worse, you are losing damage.
This gives a tactical approach to turret usage and attackage. How do yous thinks?
This gives a tactical approach to turret usage and attackage. How do yous thinks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So have turrets expend regenerating ammo/energy?
e.g. placing an obs near the turrets makes them target quicker or further
or placing an arms lab there makes them do more damage etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea for the tower defence mod someone should make.
but may i ask something as to what gorges are supposed to be?
i believed that gorges were supposed to be supports, not a tanky cuddly alien.
so when i heard that gorges could build hydras for free, i was happy
i wasn't so happy anymore when i was marine fighting the gorge, one whole clip, and if the gorge has hydras, clogs, CRAG and whip, 2 or 3 clips still might not kill the gorge, specially if the gorge then has other aliens nearby (gorge, skulks or whatever). then it doesn't seem like gorge becomes support anymore. it literally allows one gorge to block access to one area.. i don't see marines capable of doing that, with or without the 15 res turrets.
GORGES AINT SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE in battle vs marine. they are fat and cuddly, so they should be able to somewhat escape, but not kill marine(s).
so, instead of comparing between aliens and marines, please just stay on topic: the turret, What needs to be fixed, how or even why.
the summary of SOME of the resolution from previous posts shows that this can be done by either:
1. increase the effectiveness of the turrets, either by health, aiming, damage, range, firing arc, or any combination in between, TRes cost stays high. Maybe limit the number per area, with optional variables of power nodes (+2 maybe), CC (+3 maybe) or extra Factories (+3 max maybe), if too effective. note that, even lerks with spikes, is capable of killing sentries easily well outside sentry range, even if in range, sentries are too weak.
2. decrease the cost of the turrets, either in build time or resources.
3. an upgradeable function of turrets, meaning a cheaper initial build of turrets, where the global turret upgrades are done from factory (health, damage, firing arc, speed, tracking, etc).
4. get an improved backup for the turret as in cheaper or more effective mines, or nearby marines/obs/factory/MACs increasing some effectiveness.
5. optional fix of allowing the turret to actually damage alien buildings that is in range (like how some posts claim that clog and hydra isn't attacked by turrets, yet the hydra can hurt the turrets, not sure about whips).
EDIT:
6. Energy values as variables for turrets
7. the counterpart hydra being nerfed in some way
please do not start comparing about tech lost from alien buildings vs marine buildings, there's a diff thread for that one!
As we can see, there are a number of possible ways to do this, and there's even more not yet written
The only problem right now is, that most marines are afraid to sacrifice themselves in order to hunt the gorge down. Instead they are standing around a corner and shooting the hydras, which are healed by the gorge (and I have seen this going on for >10minutes). If the people can't think one step ahead and see how to break a gorge base, they deserve to lose. I laugh every time I see 3 marines getting owned by a single gorge, because they don't realize that they just need to push. Don't shoot the hydras. Shoot the gorge. It's dead simple. 2 marines can kill him in 3 seconds. No matter of hydras or not. One marine will survive and can THAN kill the hydras from a save position.
Also there is no need to argue with symmetry. The marines don't need an ability for area denial just because the aliens have some. It's the asymmetry of the game. Thats why marines have more ways to break through areas than aliens have.
The only problem right now is, that most marines are afraid to sacrifice themselves in order to hunt the gorge down. Instead they are standing around a corner and shooting the hydras, which are healed by the gorge (and I have seen this going on for >10minutes). If the people can't think one step ahead and see how to break a gorge base, they deserve to lose. I laugh every time I see 3 marines getting owned by a single gorge, because they don't realize that they just need to push. Don't shoot the hydras. Shoot the gorge. It's dead simple. 2 marines can kill him in 3 seconds. No matter of hydras or not. One marine will survive and can THAN kill the hydras from a save position.
Also there is no need to argue with symmetry. The marines don't need an ability for area denial just because the aliens have some. It's the asymmetry of the game. Thats why marines have more ways to break through areas than aliens have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with Necro in this.