<!--quoteo(post=1955561:date=Aug 1 2012, 08:34 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 1 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't clogs mess up necro's point though? How are marines supposed to rush past the hydras and kill the gorge when they're blocked by a clog wall?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe sentries should have a lot more health than right now, maybe half an extractor for example, but have them disable after 3 bites or so? This way they still are gimp without support, it also encourages welders even further.
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1955562:date=Aug 1 2012, 03:38 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 1 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most clog-walls I have seen, are falling completely to the ground, when one clog is killed, so you can jump above them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, you never met a good gorge! If the marine is shooting the clog from too far, the gorge will be able to make another one instantly, if he comes closer to shoot it and to jump over the hydras will kill him. 1 skulk and 1 gorge are impossible to take down with 3 marines and a LMGs...
When the gorge is at breakpoint and nearly can't hold it anymore the marine<u>S</u> usually don't have ammo left or some support arrive to help the gorge. A good gorge with a microphone and a good teammate are EXTREMELY powerful!
<u>Necro you seems to forget that because you never play as a gorge...</u>
<u>ON TOPIC:</u>
I think most people agree that sentries are completely useless right now... A single lerk WITHOUT spikes can take down a square of turrets by itself very quickly.
This change needed to be tested imo, it worked to make spamming useless, but it made turrets useless either. And having a such important element in the marine's gameplay removed from a strategy is not a good idea.
Get back to the old values because it is not the solution. A lot of builds ago, the turrets had about 250 bullets and needed to be refilled by the commander. The problem is: the skulks can die 30 times before the turret is empty... I think an option "like" this one (it failed, but in the same idea) can be the solution.
Hey guys, my 1st post here, i'm sure there's a reason i don't know about, but why not make turrets 'enterable' via an infantry purchased 'security tablet'. Only 1 allowed per game(unless upgraded) and can cycle through all turrets(or maybe just the one under reticule) and while player is in control, turret gets slight damage buff or an extra type of underslung weapon or something.
Yes, like you use the tablet and it switches to 1st person view from turret and you could cycle through them much like security cameras in other singleplayer games. Would add a whole new set of balancing options without making all turrets OP or UP.
Hm, intriguing, but I doubt most players will take the time to sit cycling between turrets hoping to catch a target to shoot. And if they're in the same room as the turret, they should be shooting the Aliens.
A Commander buff might make a little more sense since it's their job to maintain and watch over the structures, but not on where you control the turret from 1st person.
<!--quoteo(post=1956147:date=Aug 2 2012, 05:33 PM:name=Rizzmond)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rizzmond @ Aug 2 2012, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe sentries should have a lot more health than right now, maybe half an extractor for example, but have them disable after 3 bites or so? This way they still are gimp without support, it also encourages welders even further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an interesting idea.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=1955490:date=Aug 1 2012, 03:14 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 1 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So have turrets expend regenerating ammo/energy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At a slow rate So there would be some sort of strategy for continuously charging about at them and dodging them, get them under 50, and they wont shoot the gorge when he comes in to bile. This makes turrets only good 'for a while', as static defenses should be good when they are under use, but can't be used forever and ever. i imagine they would eventually get a bit useless after a big assault, but still weaken the first blow. give time for marines to organise and defend, but wont be able to stop attacks altogether Unless of course you spammed them to a point where aliens might have to just give up attacking and wave their flag 'o surrender, bearing the white skulk.
Why not leave them as they are (with a slight hp buff), but allow the commander to upgrade different types of sentries out of the normal ones. I.E. flamethrower sentries, grenade sentries, rail gun sentries?
the solution could be variety instead of changing numbers
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1956369:date=Aug 3 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Aug 3 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not leave them as they are (with a slight hp buff), but allow the commander to upgrade different types of sentries out of the normal ones. I.E. flamethrower sentries, grenade sentries, rail gun sentries?
the solution could be variety instead of changing numbers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really want to upgrade a glass turret and give it power but no health? For me its a waste of money... Furthermore, this idea can't make it, simply because this needs to be fixed BEFORE 1.0 and making such a complex idea takes to much time and they don't have it! Maybe in future it can possible but this idea it not the solution to fix the "glass turret" issue...
I just think sentrys are a bad idea, I understand it is late in the game but marine defence options need to change. They just can't be balanced as we have seen over 214 builds now.
Imo, from 'ranged' sentry, to 'passive, aggressive' or 'lethal obstacle' to hinder alien movement and promote player v player gameplay.
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
<!--quoteo(post=1952497:date=Jul 19 2012, 12:56 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 19 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a difficult problem. Too cheap = spammable again. Too strong = can defend a base alone.
I like how they're relatively easy to destroy now, it reduces the player vs AI part of the game, it's a Player vs Player game after all. If they're too weak for the costs, bring it down to 7~8, but not too low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about having thema s they are now or slightly buffed and then have a hp/shield boost research which would make them more viable late game.
A hard cap (3 maybe) sounds like the solution, they can still be useful to cover a specific location (a phase gate, or the base) but you can't win by turtling and cover the whole map with them.
Hard cap taboo has already been breached with hydras, so not much prevent us to apply it to turrets.
Personally I think sentries should be able to hold a base against one MAYBE two skulks but should be useless against anything more than that. They should be used to prevent one guy from sneaking behind the entire enemy force and taking out a base all by himself without any teamwork. I also think there should be a cap to how much the commander can place down.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Yuuki, increasing the cost is much better than a hard cap anything. hard caps reduce strategy and usability. hard cap IS a taboo in strategy games, that's why i oppose free hydras till the death knells. theres a very good reason it is, it just basicly means 'build till limit, then forget till need' I'd rather make something more expensive to use and lose. than set a hard cap. i you want to spam the heck out of turrets, it needs to be expensive to do. especialy since its so easy to destroy turrets even without their low hp.
in the video Totalbiscuit put out on the commander the developer who was with him said they wanted the sentries to be fragile they are more of a distraction to buy the commander time to call all the marines back to the base to help if its under attack but the price now mind i havent played ns1 or 2 but the price seems good only 10 for a distraction eh i think its fine
I think sentry guns should be left alone so both Marines and Aliens can be different or else Marines will do the same thing, just block an area like the clog/hydras. I would like to see different strategies on both sides.
Anyways, someone suggested bringing back the turret factory to power the sentry guns. You're spending res for not only Sentry guns but also the Turret Factory, so it's quite expensive. Then buff the Sentry gun.
<!--quoteo(post=1957493:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:07 AM:name=CobraCommander)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CobraCommander @ Aug 5 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think sentry guns should be left alone so both Marines and Aliens can be different or else Marines will do the same thing, just block an area like the clog/hydras. I would like to see different strategies on both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with with this comparison is that it takes an extremely skewed amount of effort to break through a clog/hydra fortification from 1 gorge. Compare 1 gorge to 1 sentry. They both cost the same res, but it's extremely clear which defense is more effective.
A below average gorge and a whip can stop one good non-upgraded marine. 2 sentries cannot stop a good non-upgraded skulk. Same amount of resources on defense [20], same amount on offense [0]. The difference being, marines can't break through alone, aliens can break through alone.
Some people may argue that the example is too symmetric, and they'd be right. But whips and sentries are symmetric [static defenses, cost 10 res, meant for area denial from one, maybe 2, non-upgraded basic enemy players]. If you're going to add two buildings on both sides that do the same thing [melee/ranged difference non-withstanding], why not make them as effective as each other for what they're supposed to do?
Some might argue the example is too different, after all, the aliens have a gorge. And again, you'd be right. But take out one of the sentries. Add a marine. Assume the skulk is a good one, and the marine is below average [like the gorge]. The skulk will win maybe 80% of the time. Again, very similar, but the aliens have a clear advantage. Admittedly, it cost less human resources, but that's just further proof of how bad the sentries suck because THEY ACTUALLY DO BETTER THIS WAY! Difference being, marine [which could be a vital part of the offense you need] is uselessly standing around guarding a point aliens may or may not attack. The gorge can leave and do something productive, let the hydras and whip take care of it.
Humans suffer a severe lack of defenses against an enemy against whom their only advantage is range. Which can be rapidly closed. Humans seemed to be built to be an offensive race, but aliens are better at offense and defense. Definitely built defensively, but better at both.
Edit: Keep in mind, this is all derived from my personal experience and witnessing it happen over and over in games. No numbers beside res cost.
You say it yourself. It is not symmetric. The marines are way better in rolling over the aliens, while the aliens are better in defending. There are so many other points that backup this asymmetry. Like ARCs... like the slow expansion rate the aliens have... the range vs. melee... etc.
Overall you can't compare the defense buildings of the two teams. They fit completely different roles, like the teams do. We had sentries that were capable of area denial and it was not fun for the aliens. A good marine com could lock down part after part of the map. (Because marines are better in attacking.) Some marine coms spamed sentries everywhere, so you could only move through one single passage and this was were all the marines was shooting at you. Aliens needed luck to get down a locked down base. The sentries had so much health, that you couldn't kill one without a marine coming through the phase gate and stop you. Skulks got literally useless in end game, when the marine com spamed sentries.
Believe it or not, marine sentries that are capable of area denial are not a good idea. They may have to less health right now. There are other ways to make them assist-tools, that are not capable of area denial, but not a waste of res. But you can read all the ideas in this thread.
I disagree about not comparing defensive structures, or at least, marines not having them. Territorial control is one of my biggest gripes in NS2 for marines. It is like playing on a tamagotchi but with extractors.
They start to get annoying because they constantly need attention.
The issue is that sentries are based on a ranged attack, which is fine if you have perhaps 1 or 2 that basically just act like concrete walls (i.e. aliens movie) ... but they are the only option except for mines.
What needs to happen is mines need to become the new electrify, so they can be attached to buildings and aliens have to bit them off with risk to themselves. Or at least, there need to be options for the marines that do not involve range based attacks so that the aliens can pass through defended areas or at least fight other marines in them without 5 sentries firing at them.
Whips are a good example of this sort of thinking, as you can still fight player to player as long as you keep outside their range.
Marines just need a couple or three defensive options that scale well, and sentries just do not do this currently.
Sentries just don't work because they are ranged based, and mines get spammed and both just take away from the player v player gameplay.
-Sentries are back to their old levels -Commander can only have 5 sentries on the map at any one time. If a sentry gets destroyed there is a 2 minute cooldown before building another one -They take forever to build and are expensive
Once the aliens take out the sentry nest, they have free reign over the base for a good 6 or 7 minutes
Actually, come to think of it, that sounds like a terrible idea
<!--quoteo(post=1958572:date=Aug 7 2012, 07:23 AM:name=plausiblesarge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (plausiblesarge @ Aug 7 2012, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, come to think of it, that sounds like a terrible idea<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My 2 cents. Buff turrets but hard cap numbers (2 per com chair)to avoid spamming and make them require generators placed nearby to be powered, and reduce the Hp of generators to make them the weak point.
You cant deny a lot of the style of marines vs aliens is taken from the Aliens movies, - and the turrets are an Iconic part of that (as is welding doors but thats another thread).
Whilst PvT is boring, at this stage the marines <i>have zero viable defensive utilities</i>, mines are single use, expensive and often fail to kill even a skulk, and recall calls everyone back, when often you want to keep a squad on the attack.
Gorges can area deny early/mid game with ease, <u>marines need the same abilty or they will be forced into hyper agressive rush play which is no fun for anyone.</u>
<!--quoteo(post=1958916:date=Aug 8 2012, 05:40 AM:name=Vaelkyri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vaelkyri @ Aug 8 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->recall calls everyone back, when often you want to keep a squad on the attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't it used to be that if you held E during the beacon, you'd stay where you were? If it's not still like that, it should be.
They should just take the sentries out of the game completely. The weak, dumb, slow, expensive and nerfed to tears sentries serve no other purpose than to cost much and be laugable weak. It's almost insulting to those poor marines. More and more they're steering to a watered down NS2 game.
Comments
Shot clogs, make an opening and hop through.
Haha, you never met a good gorge! If the marine is shooting the clog from too far, the gorge will be able to make another one instantly, if he comes closer to shoot it and to jump over the hydras will kill him. 1 skulk and 1 gorge are impossible to take down with 3 marines and a LMGs...
When the gorge is at breakpoint and nearly can't hold it anymore the marine<u>S</u> usually don't have ammo left or some support arrive to help the gorge. A good gorge with a microphone and a good teammate are EXTREMELY powerful!
<u>Necro you seems to forget that because you never play as a gorge...</u>
<u>ON TOPIC:</u>
I think most people agree that sentries are completely useless right now... A single lerk WITHOUT spikes can take down a square of turrets by itself very quickly.
This change needed to be tested imo, it worked to make spamming useless, but it made turrets useless either. And having a such important element in the marine's gameplay removed from a strategy is not a good idea.
Get back to the old values because it is not the solution. A lot of builds ago, the turrets had about 250 bullets and needed to be refilled by the commander. The problem is: the skulks can die 30 times before the turret is empty... I think an option "like" this one (it failed, but in the same idea) can be the solution.
Only 1 allowed per game(unless upgraded) and can cycle through all turrets(or maybe just the one under reticule) and while player is in control, turret gets slight damage buff or an extra type of underslung weapon or something.
Would add a whole new set of balancing options without making all turrets OP or UP.
A Commander buff might make a little more sense since it's their job to maintain and watch over the structures, but not on where you control the turret from 1st person.
This is an interesting idea.
At a slow rate
So there would be some sort of strategy for continuously charging about at them and dodging them, get them under 50, and they wont shoot the gorge when he comes in to bile.
This makes turrets only good 'for a while', as static defenses should be good when they are under use, but can't be used forever and ever. i imagine they would eventually get a bit useless after a big assault, but still weaken the first blow. give time for marines to organise and defend, but wont be able to stop attacks altogether
Unless of course you spammed them to a point where aliens might have to just give up attacking and wave their flag 'o surrender, bearing the white skulk.
the solution could be variety instead of changing numbers
the solution could be variety instead of changing numbers<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really want to upgrade a glass turret and give it power but no health? For me its a waste of money... Furthermore, this idea can't make it, simply because this needs to be fixed BEFORE 1.0 and making such a complex idea takes to much time and they don't have it! Maybe in future it can possible but this idea it not the solution to fix the "glass turret" issue...
Imo, from 'ranged' sentry, to 'passive, aggressive' or 'lethal obstacle' to hinder alien movement and promote player v player gameplay.
Electrify in NS1 is a good example of this.
however, as spade said, it would be better to have it considered only after the current said turret is somewhat balanced.
EDIT:
another quick idea,
what about increased turret accuracy if they're in the room with OBS?
I like how they're relatively easy to destroy now, it reduces the player vs AI part of the game, it's a Player vs Player game after all. If they're too weak for the costs, bring it down to 7~8, but not too low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about having thema s they are now or slightly buffed and then have a hp/shield boost research which would make them more viable late game.
Hard cap taboo has already been breached with hydras, so not much prevent us to apply it to turrets.
I also think whips should operate this way btw
I'd rather make something more expensive to use and lose. than set a hard cap. i you want to spam the heck out of turrets, it needs to be expensive to do. especialy since its so easy to destroy turrets even without their low hp.
Anyways, someone suggested bringing back the turret factory to power the sentry guns. You're spending res for not only Sentry guns but also the Turret Factory, so it's quite expensive. Then buff the Sentry gun.
The problem with with this comparison is that it takes an extremely skewed amount of effort to break through a clog/hydra fortification from 1 gorge. Compare 1 gorge to 1 sentry. They both cost the same res, but it's extremely clear which defense is more effective.
Some people may argue that the example is too symmetric, and they'd be right. But whips and sentries are symmetric [static defenses, cost 10 res, meant for area denial from one, maybe 2, non-upgraded basic enemy players]. If you're going to add two buildings on both sides that do the same thing [melee/ranged difference non-withstanding], why not make them as effective as each other for what they're supposed to do?
Some might argue the example is too different, after all, the aliens have a gorge. And again, you'd be right. But take out one of the sentries. Add a marine. Assume the skulk is a good one, and the marine is below average [like the gorge]. The skulk will win maybe 80% of the time. Again, very similar, but the aliens have a clear advantage. Admittedly, it cost less human resources, but that's just further proof of how bad the sentries suck because THEY ACTUALLY DO BETTER THIS WAY! Difference being, marine [which could be a vital part of the offense you need] is uselessly standing around guarding a point aliens may or may not attack. The gorge can leave and do something productive, let the hydras and whip take care of it.
Humans suffer a severe lack of defenses against an enemy against whom their only advantage is range. Which can be rapidly closed. Humans seemed to be built to be an offensive race, but aliens are better at offense and defense. Definitely built defensively, but better at both.
Edit: Keep in mind, this is all derived from my personal experience and witnessing it happen over and over in games. No numbers beside res cost.
Overall you can't compare the defense buildings of the two teams. They fit completely different roles, like the teams do. We had sentries that were capable of area denial and it was not fun for the aliens. A good marine com could lock down part after part of the map. (Because marines are better in attacking.) Some marine coms spamed sentries everywhere, so you could only move through one single passage and this was were all the marines was shooting at you. Aliens needed luck to get down a locked down base. The sentries had so much health, that you couldn't kill one without a marine coming through the phase gate and stop you. Skulks got literally useless in end game, when the marine com spamed sentries.
Believe it or not, marine sentries that are capable of area denial are not a good idea. They may have to less health right now. There are other ways to make them assist-tools, that are not capable of area denial, but not a waste of res. But you can read all the ideas in this thread.
They start to get annoying because they constantly need attention.
The issue is that sentries are based on a ranged attack, which is fine if you have perhaps 1 or 2 that basically just act like concrete walls (i.e. aliens movie) ... but they are the only option except for mines.
What needs to happen is mines need to become the new electrify, so they can be attached to buildings and aliens have to bit them off with risk to themselves. Or at least, there need to be options for the marines that do not involve range based attacks so that the aliens can pass through defended areas or at least fight other marines in them without 5 sentries firing at them.
Whips are a good example of this sort of thinking, as you can still fight player to player as long as you keep outside their range.
Marines just need a couple or three defensive options that scale well, and sentries just do not do this currently.
Sentries just don't work because they are ranged based, and mines get spammed and both just take away from the player v player gameplay.
-Commander can only have 5 sentries on the map at any one time. If a sentry gets destroyed there is a 2 minute cooldown before building another one
-They take forever to build and are expensive
Once the aliens take out the sentry nest, they have free reign over the base for a good 6 or 7 minutes
Actually, come to think of it, that sounds like a terrible idea
QFT
You cant deny a lot of the style of marines vs aliens is taken from the Aliens movies, - and the turrets are an Iconic part of that (as is welding doors but thats another thread).
Whilst PvT is boring, at this stage the marines <i>have zero viable defensive utilities</i>, mines are single use, expensive and often fail to kill even a skulk, and recall calls everyone back, when often you want to keep a squad on the attack.
Gorges can area deny early/mid game with ease, <u>marines need the same abilty or they will be forced into hyper agressive rush play which is no fun for anyone.</u>
Didn't it used to be that if you held E during the beacon, you'd stay where you were? If it's not still like that, it should be.
More and more they're steering to a watered down NS2 game.
It's nearing boredom.