fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1964652:date=Aug 18 2012, 07:32 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964652"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I can tell, here are the two main arguments against the hive and CC indicators 1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed. 2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
Wow you guys really are convincing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great fake list. How about a list that's a little less obtuse?
1) It is incredibly distracting 2) It contributes to informational overload 3) It competes in player's minds with the actual main goal of NS2 -- listen to your commander, do what he says, not just run right at the primary objective of the game 4) It is ugly 5) It smacks of bad design (lets just throw this in there and "see what happens") 6) It doesn't appear to actually solve any problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1964704:date=Aug 18 2012, 04:50 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 18 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Same thing that happens any other time you would parasite something, it'd show up as a blip on your screen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, now lets cross reference that with this list, which seems fair and comprehensive.
<!--quoteo(post=1964665:date=Aug 18 2012, 02:23 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 18 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) It is incredibly distracting 2) It contributes to informational overload 3) It competes in player's minds with the actual main goal of NS2 -- listen to your commander, do what he says, not just run right at the primary objective of the game 4) It is ugly 5) It smacks of bad design (lets just throw this in there and "see what happens") 6) It doesn't appear to actually solve any problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Would also be true for parasited comm in NS1 2) same as above 3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions 4) its a placeholder 5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there" 6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1964706:date=Aug 18 2012, 10:59 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Would also be true for parasited comm in NS1 2) same as above 3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions 4) its a placeholder 5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there" 6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was put in there specifically to help new players. It was a bad choice, and a nonsensical approach to the problem newbies have of navigating the map. At least with parasite or hive sight there is some larger perspective, this is just singularly highlighting the most important objective on the map, and nothing else. In other words, its the worst of both worlds of what you mentioned. It gives no context, and puts all the wrong emphasis.
Hive sight and parasite worked well as systems, hence nobody complained when they were around, and everybody complained when they were removed. This is a senseless decision from all angles, it isn't helpful, and it isn't informative. It's fairly awful, and your attempts to justify it by comparing it to good things like hivesight and parasite are totally indicative of most of the problems NS2 has had overall thus far: lets change things that are working, in favor of things that are not. Lets bang our heads against a wall for many weeks trying to float a dud of an idea, until we realize we had taken something for granted.
<!--quoteo(post=1964715:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:07 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 18 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knowing where the CC/Hive is, is one of the least important things that you need to know throughout the game. (Unless if you're base rushing, but then at that point, all you need to do is follow the other skulks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1964706:date=Aug 18 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, now lets cross reference that with this list, which seems fair and comprehensive.
1) Would also be true for parasited comm in NS1 2) same as above 3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions 4) its a placeholder 5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there" 6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree. In NS1 you would parasite things that were important, knowledge that you needed to have. You needed to know when the marines had their RTs up, if they had a phase gate up somewhere, you'd need to know where the marines were, these were things that you needed to have on your screen.
No one ever needed to know where the hive or command center was, because that's not the point of the game, it's how you win it, but it's the LAST thing that you need to concern yourself with.
Knowing where the CC/Hive is, is one of the least important things that you need to know throughout the game. (Unless if you're base rushing, but then at that point, all you need to do is follow the other skulks)
All the points raised above ^ are potentially valid and I respect that, but please, restrict your complaints for the sake of consistency. Saying that its distracting or contributes to information overload isn't going to fly, simply because its not a consistent complaint.
In my opinion, potentially valid points are that it doesn't help new players, and that it represents pointless information. I say potentially valid, because neither of these points have been proven. They are merely opinions, ones which many of you think are valid because you know a lot about this game and about natural selection in general. However that is the problem.
You cannot assume that you know what is best for new players by the merit of your experience in natural selection. This is counter intuitive. The mere fact that you are so experienced in the game pretty much prevents you from knowing anything about what is best for new players. You have to accept that with more experience in NS, you lose the ability to place yourself in the shoes of a new player.
Here's the real reason why I think UWE should ignore the lot of you, and why I think they probably are. This being an open beta, the experience level of the average player is much much much higher than it would be in an open non beta environment. Now people who are good at things, especially games, have a tendency to be foursquare against any changes, and ESPECIALLY opposed to changes which make things arguably "easier" or "more intuitive". This is called elitism, and I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. Here's the problem I see; the hive/CC indicator is kind of ugly, its kind of weird, its use is a little bit questionable, but at the end of the day, it is a small 100x100 red block which is placed behind almost every conceivable game element. Some opposition would be fine, and completely understandable. However, opposition of <b>THIS </b>scale screams elitism.
Elitism kills the induction of new players into the game, and that's why, when dealing with topics regarding how best to help new players, its quite beneficial to completely ignore your hardcore fans.
The fact that you refer to it as elitism proves you miss the point entirely. The point is the wrong information is being given to newbies, not that information is being displayed for them period.
<!--quoteo(post=1964719:date=Aug 18 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Aug 18 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that you refer to it as elitism proves you miss the point entirely. The point is the wrong information is being given to newbies, not that information is being displayed for them period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am perfectly willing to accept that you believe that is true.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1964716:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the points raised above ^ are potentially valid and I respect that, but please, restrict your complaints for the sake of consistency. Saying that its distracting or contributes to information overload isn't going to fly, simply because its not a consistent complaint.
In my opinion, potentially valid points are that it doesn't help new players, and that it represents pointless information. I say potentially valid, because neither of these points have been proven. They are merely opinions, ones which many of you think are valid because you know a lot about this game and about natural selection in general. However that is the problem.
You cannot assume that you know what is best for new players by the merit of your experience in natural selection. This is counter intuitive. The mere fact that you are so experienced in the game pretty much prevents you from knowing anything about what is best for new players. You have to accept that with more experience in NS, you lose the ability to place yourself in the shoes of a new player.
Here's the real reason why I think UWE should ignore the lot of you, and why I think they probably are. This being an open beta, the experience level of the average player is much much much higher than it would be in an open non beta environment. Now people who are good at things, especially games, have a tendency to be foursquare against any changes, and ESPECIALLY opposed to changes which make things arguably "easier" or "more intuitive". This is called elitism, and I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. Here's the problem I see; the hive/CC indicator is kind of ugly, its kind of weird, its use is a little bit questionable, but at the end of the day, it is a small 100x100 red block which is placed behind almost every conceivable game element. Some opposition would be fine, and completely understandable. However, opposition of <b>THIS </b>scale screams elitism.
Elitism kills the induction of new players into the game, and that's why, when dealing with topics regarding how best to help new players, its quite beneficial to completely ignore your hardcore fans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elitism =/= calling a bad idea a bad idea. This is where I get off the debate.
If RTs and power nodes glowed instead of hives and CCs I would be totally fine with it. It would still be ugly and stuff but whatever, I don't care. My issue is entirely that new players are being taught the wrong thing when one of the most prominent things that is lit up is the area they are most likey to be brutally killed at. Like I said earlier, it's like if Battlefield 3 put the objective markers on the uncapturable enemy spawns instead of on the control points.
On another note entirely. Just watched NS2HD's Diary #4, and I have to say I enjoyed him talking to the programmer. I would love it if during Q&A videos or future videos to contain other programmers talking to Charlie, Brian and whoever else about NS2 and what they think about LUA and the game in general and how its done.
<!--quoteo(post=1964727:date=Aug 18 2012, 07:12 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 18 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If RTs and power nodes glowed instead of hives and CCs I would be totally fine with it. It would still be ugly and stuff but whatever, I don't care. My issue is entirely that new players are being taught the wrong thing when one of the most prominent things that is lit up is the area they are most likey to be brutally killed at. Like I said earlier, it's like if Battlefield 3 put the objective markers on the uncapturable enemy spawns instead of on the control points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like if Battlefield 3 put big large unique icons over the enemy spawn. Oh wait... they do.
Large and unique icons over enemy spawn and no icons on the control points, yes. If they did that, new players would stream towards enemy spawns and avoid the capture points.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Tech and res locations should appear as a text waypoint when you enter a room, giving them the needed information and helping them better navigate each new room until they want to turn it off.
<!--quoteo(post=1964750:date=Aug 18 2012, 09:09 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 18 2012, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Large and unique icons over enemy spawn and no icons on the control points, yes. If they did that, new players would stream towards enemy spawns and avoid the capture points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1964778:date=Aug 18 2012, 04:27 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is that what you would do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I were playing NS2 for the first time and using UI cues to learn the game because nobody was in-game telling me what to do? Yeah, probably.
<!--quoteo(post=1964785:date=Aug 18 2012, 11:42 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TychoCelchuuu @ Aug 18 2012, 11:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I were playing NS2 for the first time and using UI cues to learn the game because nobody was in-game telling me what to do? Yeah, probably.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would spend between 10 and 20 minutes running to the red thing on your UI, dying over and over again?
<!--quoteo(post=1964792:date=Aug 18 2012, 05:00 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 18 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You would spend between 10 and 20 minutes running to the red thing on your UI, dying over and over again?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if I'd spend 20 minutes doing it, but yes, new players die over and over again in games so I would probably assume I just hadn't figured out how to fight aliens or marines yet. Which, frankly, would be partially correct, because no matter <i>what</i> a new player does in NS2, they're going to die over and over again, unless they're fighting other new players.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120235&st=0&p=1964788&#entry1964788" target="_blank">Kouji has seen it happen himself, in fact</a>.
Ye, I've seen newbies who were so inspired by the shining red icon in the distance that their aspirations lead them to rally together and become a cohesive fighting force the likes of which have never been seen.
See, its pretty easy to say that something happened.
<!--quoteo(post=1964812:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:18 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Aug 19 2012, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps some of you should actually watch how new players play. It really is an eye opener.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They all manage to fill the map with sentry turrets without any tooltip telling them to do so?
<!--quoteo(post=1964829:date=Aug 18 2012, 08:46 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 18 2012, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They all manage to fill the map with sentry turrets without any tooltip telling them to do so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lololol
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1964829:date=Aug 19 2012, 12:46 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 19 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They all manage to fill the map with sentry turrets without any tooltip telling them to do so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I blame the awesome <b>Aliens</b> turret scene. But yeah, its amazing how these turret farms sprout up out of nowhere :P
<!--quoteo(post=1964829:date=Aug 19 2012, 02:46 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Aug 19 2012, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They all manage to fill the map with sentry turrets without any tooltip telling them to do so?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentry spam is a legitimate starting point for developing a strategy. Most of us here went through that phase many years ago. We know it's a bad choice generally, but that doesn't mean it's bad in a noob vs. noob game. It works very well there and wins them the game quite a lot. Things that don't work so well for the noobs are the power node mechanic, and the alien upgrade system, because unlike the robotics which is right there in the marine commander's main menu the alien upgrades are a bit less obviously placed. Methodically working players will eventually find them by clicking everything and reading the tool-tips patiently (not a good choice while commanding a pub game though) and by reading through the key bindings menu.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1965014:date=Aug 19 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 19 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie phoned Hugh and told him he had to eat it to destroy the evidence.
True story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It happened. Although it might bind Hugh up for a week..
Comments
1) Players are not stupid and do not need to be blatantly shown their locations. Due to their inherent level of intelligence, they will be able to use the minimap and see for themselves from that perspective, and therefore it is not needed.
2) Players are morons and will continuously run to their deaths as they try and obtain the flashy red shiny indicator on their screen, as a moth to the flame.
Wow you guys really are convincing!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great fake list. How about a list that's a little less obtuse?
1) It is incredibly distracting
2) It contributes to informational overload
3) It competes in player's minds with the actual main goal of NS2 -- listen to your commander, do what he says, not just run right at the primary objective of the game
4) It is ugly
5) It smacks of bad design (lets just throw this in there and "see what happens")
6) It doesn't appear to actually solve any problems.
Ok, now lets cross reference that with this list, which seems fair and comprehensive.
<!--quoteo(post=1964665:date=Aug 18 2012, 02:23 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 18 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) It is incredibly distracting
2) It contributes to informational overload
3) It competes in player's minds with the actual main goal of NS2 -- listen to your commander, do what he says, not just run right at the primary objective of the game
4) It is ugly
5) It smacks of bad design (lets just throw this in there and "see what happens")
6) It doesn't appear to actually solve any problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Would also be true for parasited comm in NS1
2) same as above
3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions
4) its a placeholder
5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there"
6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.
2) same as above
3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions
4) its a placeholder
5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there"
6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was put in there specifically to help new players. It was a bad choice, and a nonsensical approach to the problem newbies have of navigating the map. At least with parasite or hive sight there is some larger perspective, this is just singularly highlighting the most important objective on the map, and nothing else. In other words, its the worst of both worlds of what you mentioned. It gives no context, and puts all the wrong emphasis.
Hive sight and parasite worked well as systems, hence nobody complained when they were around, and everybody complained when they were removed. This is a senseless decision from all angles, it isn't helpful, and it isn't informative. It's fairly awful, and your attempts to justify it by comparing it to good things like hivesight and parasite are totally indicative of most of the problems NS2 has had overall thus far: lets change things that are working, in favor of things that are not. Lets bang our heads against a wall for many weeks trying to float a dud of an idea, until we realize we had taken something for granted.
<!--quoteo(post=1964715:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:07 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 18 2012, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knowing where the CC/Hive is, is one of the least important things that you need to know throughout the game. (Unless if you're base rushing, but then at that point, all you need to do is follow the other skulks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 skynik, you said it better than I
1) Would also be true for parasited comm in NS1
2) same as above
3) this goes back to assuming that players are idiots and can't make their own informed decisions
4) its a placeholder
5) every design choice starts with just "throwing it in there"
6) a good designer sees the problems that others do not
Nobody ever complained about parasited buildings in NS1, and from what I can tell, everyone is pretty bummed that hivesight isn't in the current build. I'm trying to resolve the discrepancies here but I'm having a hard time doing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree. In NS1 you would parasite things that were important, knowledge that you needed to have. You needed to know when the marines had their RTs up, if they had a phase gate up somewhere, you'd need to know where the marines were, these were things that you needed to have on your screen.
No one ever needed to know where the hive or command center was, because that's not the point of the game, it's how you win it, but it's the LAST thing that you need to concern yourself with.
Knowing where the CC/Hive is, is one of the least important things that you need to know throughout the game. (Unless if you're base rushing, but then at that point, all you need to do is follow the other skulks)
In my opinion, potentially valid points are that it doesn't help new players, and that it represents pointless information. I say potentially valid, because neither of these points have been proven. They are merely opinions, ones which many of you think are valid because you know a lot about this game and about natural selection in general. However that is the problem.
You cannot assume that you know what is best for new players by the merit of your experience in natural selection. This is counter intuitive. The mere fact that you are so experienced in the game pretty much prevents you from knowing anything about what is best for new players. You have to accept that with more experience in NS, you lose the ability to place yourself in the shoes of a new player.
Here's the real reason why I think UWE should ignore the lot of you, and why I think they probably are. This being an open beta, the experience level of the average player is much much much higher than it would be in an open non beta environment. Now people who are good at things, especially games, have a tendency to be foursquare against any changes, and ESPECIALLY opposed to changes which make things arguably "easier" or "more intuitive". This is called elitism, and I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. Here's the problem I see; the hive/CC indicator is kind of ugly, its kind of weird, its use is a little bit questionable, but at the end of the day, it is a small 100x100 red block which is placed behind almost every conceivable game element. Some opposition would be fine, and completely understandable. However, opposition of <b>THIS </b>scale screams elitism.
Elitism kills the induction of new players into the game, and that's why, when dealing with topics regarding how best to help new players, its quite beneficial to completely ignore your hardcore fans.
I am perfectly willing to accept that you believe that is true.
In my opinion, potentially valid points are that it doesn't help new players, and that it represents pointless information. I say potentially valid, because neither of these points have been proven. They are merely opinions, ones which many of you think are valid because you know a lot about this game and about natural selection in general. However that is the problem.
You cannot assume that you know what is best for new players by the merit of your experience in natural selection. This is counter intuitive. The mere fact that you are so experienced in the game pretty much prevents you from knowing anything about what is best for new players. You have to accept that with more experience in NS, you lose the ability to place yourself in the shoes of a new player.
Here's the real reason why I think UWE should ignore the lot of you, and why I think they probably are. This being an open beta, the experience level of the average player is much much much higher than it would be in an open non beta environment. Now people who are good at things, especially games, have a tendency to be foursquare against any changes, and ESPECIALLY opposed to changes which make things arguably "easier" or "more intuitive". This is called elitism, and I'm sure many of you are familiar with it. Here's the problem I see; the hive/CC indicator is kind of ugly, its kind of weird, its use is a little bit questionable, but at the end of the day, it is a small 100x100 red block which is placed behind almost every conceivable game element. Some opposition would be fine, and completely understandable. However, opposition of <b>THIS </b>scale screams elitism.
Elitism kills the induction of new players into the game, and that's why, when dealing with topics regarding how best to help new players, its quite beneficial to completely ignore your hardcore fans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elitism =/= calling a bad idea a bad idea. This is where I get off the debate.
I think it would be fascinating.
Its like if Battlefield 3 put big large unique icons over the enemy spawn. Oh wait... they do.
Is that what you would do?
If I were playing NS2 for the first time and using UI cues to learn the game because nobody was in-game telling me what to do? Yeah, probably.
You would spend between 10 and 20 minutes running to the red thing on your UI, dying over and over again?
I'm not sure if I'd spend 20 minutes doing it, but yes, new players die over and over again in games so I would probably assume I just hadn't figured out how to fight aliens or marines yet. Which, frankly, would be partially correct, because no matter <i>what</i> a new player does in NS2, they're going to die over and over again, unless they're fighting other new players.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120235&st=0&p=1964788&#entry1964788" target="_blank">Kouji has seen it happen himself, in fact</a>.
See, its pretty easy to say that something happened.
They all manage to fill the map with sentry turrets without any tooltip telling them to do so?
lololol
I blame the awesome <b>Aliens</b> turret scene. But yeah, its amazing how these turret farms sprout up out of nowhere :P
Sentry spam is a legitimate starting point for developing a strategy. Most of us here went through that phase many years ago. We know it's a bad choice generally, but that doesn't mean it's bad in a noob vs. noob game. It works very well there and wins them the game quite a lot. Things that don't work so well for the noobs are the power node mechanic, and the alien upgrade system, because unlike the robotics which is right there in the marine commander's main menu the alien upgrades are a bit less obviously placed. Methodically working players will eventually find them by clicking everything and reading the tool-tips patiently (not a good choice while commanding a pub game though) and by reading through the key bindings menu.
True story.
True story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It happened. Although it might bind Hugh up for a week..