fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1965502:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:35 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 21 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO the HUD stuff is relatively minor, if that was all that needed adjustment it would be pretty trivial, even if it required a "pro" mod to remove, as its not changing anything mechanics wise with the game. Its once you start to or need to change mechanics that it becomes an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. The problems start heaping up when they introduce "immersive" graphical elements that are supposed to be a major part of gameplay, however. The power down darkness is the most obvious example, but I think erupting cysts has far more serious implications -- it's basically an unavoidable flashbang that the alien commander can use whenever he pleases. If basic NS2 gameplay is balanced around the use of such abilities, removing them will necessitate changes to other parts of the game, and then those changes may require even further changes...
Having seen how the beta has progressed thus far, with regards to the number of presales versus actual server population, I can't help but conclude that there are a lot of people out there who love the concept of NS2, but don't find the gameplay entertaining enough to actually play the game. If UWE simply continue in their current path, without improving the basic gameplay implementation, there won't even be a competitive community to make a mod for. I'm sure they'll make a lot of money selling the game to people who think the concept sounds cool, but after the launch dust settles and the initial novelty wears off, the active server population will simply be too small to sustain a reasonably sized competitive community.
I hope I'm wrong, and that I'm just being overly pessimistic.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1965508:date=Aug 21 2012, 08:18 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 21 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having seen how the beta has progressed thus far, with regards to the number of presales versus actual server population, I can't help but conclude that there are a lot of people out there who love the concept of NS2, but don't find the gameplay entertaining enough to actually play the game. If UWE simply continue in their current path, without improving the basic gameplay implementation, there won't even be a competitive community to make a mod for. I'm sure they'll make a lot of money selling the game to people who think the concept sounds cool, but after the launch dust settles and the initial novelty wears off, the active server population will simply be too small to sustain a reasonably sized competitive community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd actually say performance issues are a much bigger reason people who preordered are still sitting out. I also suspect there are a fair amount of people who have software/hardware conflicts (e.g. crashes, black screens, graphical glitches, etc) who are mostly hoping that future patches will fix their issues. I'd suspect gameplay issues are not the main reason most people who preorded aren't playing NS2.
As for the competitive mod, I don't think it will be viable because there is actually little consensus between comp players what should be done. Sure, we can identify things we dislike about NS2, but when it comes to fixing those issues, I think it'll turn out just like Dragon/eh's experience with NS2b. The playerbase may become large enough at some point to be able to host small portions of the competitive community in promod situations, but I think that's about the most we can expect.
In defense to ns2b it was made to show how different the game would play out with few changes. Many of the bigger issues ( such as marine sprint and spawn times) were not touched at all.
In the end the players that decide to create a different version of ns2 will have to believe that they are making the right choice(of course with feedback) and run with it. It will have to be really good and advertised to have any chance of being played which is huge amount of effort. High risk high reward kinda thing.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1965498:date=Aug 21 2012, 02:19 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 21 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is more than just the HUD though. Think view-blurring, bobbing, red flashing, sound-muffling on low-health and assorted other crap (haven't played for quite a while, but I hear even more has been added in the mean time).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, those are indeed not removed using an cl_autohelp 0 kind of command. And there are a lot of those things in NS2 :/
<!--quoteo(post=1965616:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:08 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Aug 21 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In defense to ns2b it was made to show how different the game would play out with few changes. Many of the bigger issues ( such as marine sprint and spawn times) were not touched at all.
In the end the players that decide to create a different version of ns2 will have to believe that they are making the right choice(of course with feedback) and run with it. It will have to be really good and advertised to have any chance of being played which is huge amount of effort. High risk high reward kinda thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2b was definitely a successful adventure. It demonstrated quite a few mechanics, like abilities tied to 2nd hives again, which ultimately made it back into ns2. I think that it demonstrated that players can create something more balanced in a competitive setting than you see in the default mode. It also showed how hard it is to get everyone on board.
If Tweadle ends up doing something like this, it would be good to get a group of 20-30 people to playtest it a couple times each week. I'd be down.
<!--quoteo(post=1965520:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:08 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 21 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd actually say performance issues are a much bigger reason people who preordered are still sitting out. I also suspect there are a fair amount of people who have software/hardware conflicts (e.g. crashes, black screens, graphical glitches, etc) who are mostly hoping that future patches will fix their issues. I'd suspect gameplay issues are not the main reason most people who preorded aren't playing NS2.
As for the competitive mod, I don't think it will be viable because there is actually little consensus between comp players what should be done. Sure, we can identify things we dislike about NS2, but when it comes to fixing those issues, I think it'll turn out just like Dragon/eh's experience with NS2b. The playerbase may become large enough at some point to be able to host small portions of the competitive community in promod situations, but I think that's about the most we can expect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's hard to distinguish between those who are sitting out because of performance and those who are sitting out because of game direction, especially when considering the demographic we are looking at - competitive players. While performance is obviously high priority for almost everyone, my experience is that as you get closer to the upper echelons of competitive play, the concerns grow more for game direction. It's not that I disagree with you, just that I think it's evident that game-direction is playing a very big part in its own right and warrants addressing. You only have to look at how many competitive players from NS1 play today.
As for consensus, I feel like the general dialogue between the top NS2 clans has actually been remarkably unanimous. If there's one thing that can be taken from the failed NS2-Balance team, it was that a wide range of competitive players from lots of backgrounds actually agreed almost all of the broad strokes. The disagreements came in the detail for solution implementation rather than the assessments of problem areas. That is, at least, a start.
--
That said, we should begin with the low-hanging fruit; the hud spam, the low-health, blur, bob and general meaningless stuff. It would be interesting to see how much more pleasant playing the game would be just by removing the multitude of redundant afterthoughts.
Just so everyone knows, I'm no coder and nor do I have the time to lead such a project. I was initially inquiring to see if there were plans afoot just so that I could know whether to look forward to a better and less cluttered NS2 or not.
While I'm new to this conversation, I've taken the time to read through this thread and I'm quite happy to see that there is, at least, a great concern for the future of NS2, and the hope that its player base will grow.
But I'm a little concerned about the direction most of you are taking the discussion in regards to what changes need to be implemented for "proper" competitive play. Primarily the focus on removing what we've taken to calling "immersive" features like view-bob, darkness, and HUD issues. It hasn't be stated yet, but I really think you need to consider that focusing on these arguably minor features is a terribly inefficient way of finding a solution to the competitive vs public play option.
I honestly haven't kept up with this community since I left NS1 years ago, but I feel I can speak for many of us who remember the old Competitive community when I say that we were in much the same boat as you all appear to be now. That is, during the 1.04 days, when competitive play really began to take off, we were all keenly aware that there were many imbalanced game mechanics that significantly effected the competitive scene. But, as seems to be the case now, there was no real consensus regarding what changes would actually "fix" the game, without breaking something else.
As I recall, NS1 went through numerous iterations following 1.04, with the addition of entire new game modes, not to mention significant revisions to game mechanics, some of which were reverted later on. It is my opinion, and I can only speak for myself when I say this, that NS1 suffered more from this many changes than it did benefit.
What I have never seen stated, or even acknowledged is that the very concept of Natural Selection very different, if not unique among First Person Shooters. It is a game that takes two entirely different teams, each with entirely different game play themes and mechanics, and pits them against each other, not in a pure death match style of who can kill who faster, but in the context of a resource driven real time strategy game.
The issue of balancing two drastically different teams alone is a monster of a challenge. But again, this game is much more than a death match, and so every issue must be carefully considered outside the scope of a "who would win in a 1v1" argument.
The great appeal of NS1, and I certainly believe NS2, is that it has no real peers within the genre of First Person Shooters. Matches in Natural Selection should not, in my opinion, boil down to who has the better numbers, but rather who has the better strategy. I believe I can again speak for many of us veterans of the NS1 Competitive scene when I say that while the original game has its great many imbalances, half of the fun was in the ability to find unique and creative solutions to those problems.
Granted, I do not think any of us should over look the challenges we face in attempting to form a serious competitive community for this game. And I agree with the sentiment that Natural Selection offers an incredibly exciting and engaging competitive atmosphere. But I don't think we should get caught up, as we did with NS1, with the nit-picky details of the games' mechanics, least this version of Natural Selection should follow its predecessor.
Do not ask, "Are things broken?" Instead ask, "What would make this better?"
Can we do without the immersive details? Sure, but that is a slippery slope, and I would caution against that line of thought, and simply say that, with the game in the state it is presently, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it."
If you want to make a list of the features, or mechanics you feel would make Competitive Play <i>better</i>, I think that would be a productive discussion. But do not simply talk about "what needs to be removed." Instead talk about the game itself, and how we can take those things we love about its theme, mechanics, and atmosphere, and appropriately represent them in a competitive setting.
Im trying to think of mechanics changed post 1.0 that were changed back in NS1, and honestly cant think of any atm... To say that NS1 suffered from the continued improvement doesnt make much sense to me however, as pretty much every version improved and refined upon the previous ones. NS1 also had alot of the basics implemented in 1.0 that were beneficial for competitive play, which evolved into what you saw in 2.0 and 3.0... NS2 doesnt currently have that base to work off of, and I think thats why a lot competitive players from NS1 are waiting to see what happens.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1965647:date=Aug 21 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 21 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hard to distinguish between those who are sitting out because of performance and those who are sitting out because of game direction, especially when considering the demographic we are looking at - competitive players. While performance is obviously high priority for almost everyone, my experience is that as you get closer to the upper echelons of competitive play, the concerns grow more for game direction. It's not that I disagree with you, just that I think it's evident that game-direction is playing a very big part in its own right and warrants addressing. You only have to look at how many competitive players from NS1 play today.
As for consensus, I feel like the general dialogue between the top NS2 clans has actually been remarkably unanimous. If there's one thing that can be taken from the failed NS2-Balance team, it was that a wide range of competitive players from lots of backgrounds actually agreed almost all of the broad strokes. The disagreements came in the detail for solution implementation rather than the assessments of problem areas. That is, at least, a start.
--
That said, we should begin with the low-hanging fruit; the hud spam, the low-health, blur, bob and general meaningless stuff. It would be interesting to see how much more pleasant playing the game would be just by removing the multitude of redundant afterthoughts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If we're just talking about competitive NS1 players, then many are probably keeping out because of game direction (likely because its gone too far from NS1). However, I think the majority of the eventual NS2 competitive community will be players that weren't competitive NS1 players (a combination of pub NS1 players, comp players from other games, and just pub NS2 players). For them, I think most are sitting out because of performance issues.
Also, the agreement on problem/non-agreement on solution is always the issue with these types of mods. At the end of the day, what usually happens is that the main mod dev just makes a decision, it makes some of the people happy and others unhappy, who become disillusioned and leave/stop playing the mod (see NS2b during gathers). The only way I've seen these types of promods become successful is that the normal game playerbase is so large, that you can get enough people who agree with the changes.
I dont totally agree with that, every NS2 team I have talked with has shown some uncertainty with where the game is going, and if it will be a decent competitive game. I do think that making a 'promod' has its difficulties, but also has potential. NS2b only really ran into issues with a couple of the changes, the biggest one being a non-issue as it was more of a wip mechanic (fade blink). Honestly the reason NS2b stopped being played was the fact that I stopped updating it, and the hassle of having to download and install the mod, or any updates. I still have people ask about it from time to time. Plus explaining how to install and the changes made can be tedious.
I have ideas for what I would make NS2b should I make it again, which I intended to make a decision on once 217 is released.
Dunno about pre 1.04 but everything onward was to improving the game overall, probably one of the reasons why chaos soup called NS2 is so frustration to follow :/
<!--quoteo(post=1966453:date=Aug 24 2012, 02:25 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 24 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im trying to think of mechanics changed post 1.0 that were changed back in NS1, and honestly cant think of any atm... To say that NS1 suffered from the continued improvement doesnt make much sense to me however, as pretty much every version improved and refined upon the previous ones. NS1 also had alot of the basics implemented in 1.0 that were beneficial for competitive play, which evolved into what you saw in 2.0 and 3.0... NS2 doesnt currently have that base to work off of, and I think thats why a lot competitive players from NS1 are waiting to see what happens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is well taken, and the truth of the matter is that I stopped playing NS1 a few months after it entered the 2.0 phase. However, I think my point has some merit simply in that NS1 went through three major iterations from 1.0 to 3.0, and saw the addition of not only new game modes, but also various tweaks to game mechanics. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has information regarding the changes implemented from one version to the next for NS1, but just one change that I know was fairly significant to me was the Lerk bite change from 1.04 to 2.0, which I believe was reverted near 3.0. In this case, the Lerk bite was removed from the game all together, and then re-implemented later on. This alone was one of the many changes that from 1.04 to 2.0 that caused a stir in the community, and while it may be difficult to remember the specifics, realize that this is likely do more to time than anything else, as it has been nearly a decade since those early days.
My point was not to simply draw a straight line from the NS1 community to the one that exists today, and as I said, I'm very new to this discussion. But it was always my impression that over tweaking a game can take it to bad places. NS1 had a very exciting and popular competitive community despite the numerous "unbalanced" issues in its early days.
To your point though, that there are basic features missing from NS2 that were present in the first game which benefited the competitive community. I believe this is exactly the issue that should be being discussed, rather than an emphasis on mechanics that need tweaking or what "immersive" features can or cannot contribute to competitive play.
If we want to talk about the major differences between public play and competitive play with a game like Natural Selection, we should begin by focusing on the essence of Natural Selections gameplay as it is, and then work our we up from there. I'm not suggesting we try and reinvent the game, rather I'm suggesting that we should be able to agree on <i>what</i> the game is, precisely before we start talking about what changes, if any, are necessary for a proper competitive environment.
Most of this has been done before with little success, the game will be the way it is now or very close on release. The point here is general mechanics like the base movement is not where it needs to be for a competitive game, let alone abilities and upgrades.
Okay, well thats a perfectly valid thing to talk about. But now I'm a bit curious. When you say base movement is not where it needs to be for a competitive game, what do you mean?
<!--quoteo(post=1966456:date=Aug 24 2012, 07:31 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 24 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only way I've seen these types of promods become successful is that the normal game playerbase is so large, that you can get enough people who agree with the changes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The l4d competitive community pretty much only played a modified version of the game because vanilla was too easy, but it never changed any of the mechanics. It only reduced weapon/item spawns and increased tank and witch spawns to make the game more consistent. I agree with you that any mod that changes the mechanics by a large amount will probably only have a small following and it isolates the public players even more from the competitive. IMO UWE is either going to make a good game or they aren't and it'll be mostly a waste of time to try and fix it if it turns out badly. Many of the problems come from the engine itself and things like the core movement mechanics. You'd be just as well making a new version of ns on source or some other engine.
Removing all the visual bull###### just seems like it should be a graphic/config option to me, it's hardly a mod and I think most competitive players would welcome that as the default settings.
<!--quoteo(post=1966456:date=Aug 24 2012, 06:31 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 24 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we're just talking about competitive NS1 players, then many are probably keeping out because of game direction (likely because its gone too far from NS1). However, I think the majority of the eventual NS2 competitive community will be players that weren't competitive NS1 players (a combination of pub NS1 players, comp players from other games, and just pub NS2 players). For them, I think most are sitting out because of performance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you reason this out in any way?
Basically what I see is people taking guesses on the potential playerbase, but nothing sticks out as anything better than a very hazy guess. Do we have any actual indication on how many people are simply disagreeing with the game design and how many are waiting for the better performance?
Well, I count myself among the group of Competitive NS1 players, and I can tell you quite confidently that the competitive community was widely split on the direction of the game changes between 1.04 and 2.0, and many players left because of those changes. I was ultimately one of those who left, though much later than others.
That said, I absolutely love the direction NS2 has taken, and I think its a vast improvement to the original so far. I think what many may be over looking is that, while NS2 has its own issues, it seems to me that the developers were keenly aware of the limitations of the original game and they have done a fantastic job of eliminating the many difficult to overcome "issues" with NS1's mechanics.
The Half-Life engine, whatever it was called, had many built in features that were extremely difficult to program out simply because NS1 was a mod, rather than its own game. There were maps dedicated to teaching players to Bunny hop, Jet packs and Lerk flight speeds were, for a long time, completely uncapped, not to mention tedious to learn properly. Before they changed Lerk flight to smooth it out in 2.0, there were only 3 people in the community who actually played the Lerk with any great effect due to this great difficulty. But even that change created new problems and exploits that allowed players to yo-yo yp and down vertically at tremendous speeds making them nigh impossible to hit.
I'm a bit out of touch with this community for the moment, so I'm not quite sure how many of you remember or played NS1, but its mechanics went threw multiple changes that players either overlooked, because they didn't effect the part of the game they enjoyed, absolutely loved, because it benefitted the way they liked to play, or absolutely hated, because it removed or altered something they already loved.
How many players are still around from NS1, let alone how many competitive players are still around? I couldn't really say. I certainly don't recognize many names in the short time I've been back. But I think its fair to say that there are many people who fell in love with Natural Selection who are still waiting in the wings to see how things turn out. And I think I can say that because, though people left the game for many reasons over the years, one thing we all agreed on at the time, was that Natural Selection was an absolutely fantastic game.
And, regardless of how many of the "old guard" are still around, or even waiting in the wings, I certainly think this game is on the right track to becoming exceedingly popular.
There may be some debate over the things we feel are being done wrong, but I would like to think we can all agree that the game has done a great many things right. I suppose the devils in the details, but overall, I love the new Natural Selection, and I think many of the old Natural Selection players would agree.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
I have to chime in here in defence of the spark engine. NS1 pushed the limits of the goldsrc engine, and NS2 is pushing the limits of the spark engine. I am workingon a V2 of my proving Grounds mod in which I have removed everything not related to fps combat, tech points, resource nodes, all alien and marine structures, pre-cached effects, I've removed all the slowdowns, from carapace, jumping, backwards movement and everything. The end result? The engine runs like silk, no hitching, and it is fast, I have bunnyhopping and it is amazing. It feels like playing UT, well witht he fades double jump it does anyway.
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!
<!--quoteo(post=1966581:date=Aug 25 2012, 05:40 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Aug 25 2012, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to chime in here in defence of the spark engine. NS1 pushed the limits of the goldsrc engine, and NS2 is pushing the limits of the spark engine. I am workingon a V2 of my proving Grounds mod in which I have removed everything not related to fps combat, tech points, resource nodes, all alien and marine structures, pre-cached effects, I've removed all the slowdowns, from carapace, jumping, backwards movement and everything. The end result? The engine runs like silk, no hitching, and it is fast, I have bunnyhopping and it is amazing. It feels like playing UT, well witht he fades double jump it does anyway.
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mod looks cool, cant say anything about smoothness though and jumping zick zak with marine is not bunnyhopping.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1966551:date=Aug 24 2012, 05:56 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 24 2012, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you reason this out in any way?
Basically what I see is people taking guesses on the potential playerbase, but nothing sticks out as anything better than a very hazy guess. Do we have any actual indication on how many people are simply disagreeing with the game design and how many are waiting for the better performance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its all just speculation at this point, but I don't think its too off since a) NS2 requires obscene hardware specs to get decent performance and b) presuming NS2 is successful (e.g. >1000 concurrent players), then it'll bring in many more competitive players than will likely come over from NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1966581:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:40 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Aug 25 2012, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to chime in here in defence of the spark engine. NS1 pushed the limits of the goldsrc engine, and NS2 is pushing the limits of the spark engine. I am workingon a V2 of my proving Grounds mod in which I have removed everything not related to fps combat, tech points, resource nodes, all alien and marine structures, pre-cached effects, I've removed all the slowdowns, from carapace, jumping, backwards movement and everything. The end result? The engine runs like silk, no hitching, and it is fast, I have bunnyhopping and it is amazing. It feels like playing UT, well witht he fades double jump it does anyway.
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, Spark does best at doing nothing at all? Not exactly the hallmark of an engine, I'm sure you will agree. NS1 was pretty darn heavy on systems, mainly due to it pushing HL1, a game 4 years dated and with an already slightly older lighting-system when it was released, to levels of polish not yet seen in HL1-modding, and of course also pulling off new things that HL1 wasn't at all designed for. Spark on the other hand is (supposedly) built from the ground up with NS2 in mind, so surely one should expect it to be able to cope without issue.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966559:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its a vast improvement to the original so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The solid parts of NS2 gameplay have been directly copied from NS. The problematic parts of NS2 gameplay, however, are the "improvements" like the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1966559:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Half-Life engine, whatever it was called, had many built in features that were extremely difficult to program out simply because NS1 was a mod, rather than its own game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some would argue that the limitations of the goldsrc engine helped make NS a great game. Spark, regardless of its benefits, is currently vastly inferior in terms of playability.
<!--quoteo(post=1966559:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many players are still around from NS1, let alone how many competitive players are still around? I couldn't really say. I certainly don't recognize many names in the short time I've been back. But I think its fair to say that there are many people who fell in love with Natural Selection who are still waiting in the wings to see how things turn out. And I think I can say that because, though people left the game for many reasons over the years, one thing we all agreed on at the time, was that Natural Selection was an absolutely fantastic game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I played NS for roughly 8 years at the highest level. Throughout those years I got to know a lot of people, both by playing with them and against them. Many of them bought NS2 instantly when it was available for pre-order, because they were really excited for a sequel. Not a single one of them still plays NS2, because they find it unplayable compared to the original.
Fanatic, I appreciate your opinion, and I gather that you are as much a fan of this game as I am. But when you point to things like the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation as being problems, I'm not really sure what you mean?
The game play is certainly different with respect to NS1, but I would greatly appreciate it if someone could spell out for me how these things limit competitive play.
As well, the limitations of the goldsource engine may very well have benefited NS1 by forcing the developers to work within a given context. But with the exception of perhaps the infestation, the problematic mechancis you refered to were not excluded from NS1 due to engine limitations.
As for players, I too know a number of players from my competitive days in NS1 who bought NS2 out of a desire to see a sequal to a much loved game, but do not actively play it at present. But our talk about bugs, mechanics problems, and engine inadequacies seems to me to be a bit premature as the game has not yet gone gold itself.
It has already been stated that the development team has a habit of pushing engines to their limits, but I do not think it fair of us to begin doubting their capabilities in terms of implementing their vision of the game before the game is even ready for release.
Many forget, that the first 4 months after Natural Selection was released, it was a horrible, laggy, glitchy monster that no one could play well because some bug ground performance to halt and shot everyones' pings through the roof.
I think the discussion about <i>how</i> we can implement a competitive structure to the game can be a productive one, but I caution strongly against a line of thinking that begins with "This is broken and needs to be fixed." Instead, we should try to keep the mindset of game as our focus and work on constructing an agreed upon structure for competitive play, rather than fixate on what we individually feel are mechanics problems.
The danger of proceeding down this path is simply that different individuals feel differently about different aspects of the game. Using myself as an example, several people have pointed to movement as being a problem, but I myself do not understand what they mean as I have encountered no gamebreaking movement problems while playing the game, so I do not see an issue here at all.
To your last point Fanatic, while you may be right that many of the old NS players do not enjoy the new game in its current form, I have trouble believing that without hearing it from them. I started playing Natural Selection when it first came out, and I'm playing this one now. So far, I think this game is fantastic, and while I recognize that it has its rough spots, I very clearly remember the rough spots in Natural Selection. I did not begrudge the first game for its limitations, and I do not see the point in begrudging its successor a few rough spots either, especially as it has not left beta.
Whether or not you enjoy the game I cannot say, but the arguement that no one from the old commpetitive scene likes the game is invalid. I like the game, and I like the direction its taking.
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But with the exception of perhaps the infestation, the problematic mechancis you refered to were not excluded from NS1 due to engine limitations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why did they build Spark anyway. They clearly stated there were things they wanted to do that couldn't be done with Source (which for the sake of argument we assume to be superior than Gldsource in this regard).
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many forget, that the first 4 months after Natural Selection was released, it was a horrible, laggy, glitchy monster that no one could play well because some bug ground performance to halt and shot everyones' pings through the roof.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 was also a free mod, pushing an already dated engine to its limits. NS2 is a (pricey) pay-to-play, built from the ground up, that has been in beta approaching 2 years now. I don't see how anyone could make the comparison, and I'll tell you paying costumers will not accept it.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But when you point to things like the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation as being problems, I'm not really sure what you mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
I'll give you one example, the rest you'll just have to figure out on your own. Forum search is your friend.
Adding an alien commander necessitated a change in the alien economy. Whereas the aliens in NS had a single type of resources distributed evenly between each player, the aliens in NS2 have two types of resources; one used by the commander (tRes) and one used by the field players (pRes).
While there are some differences, some of which are problematic in their own rights, the alien lifeforms were more or less copied over from NS. These lifeforms were designed and balanced around the concept of the communal res pool in NS, however. This creates significant problems when they are introduced into a completely different economy.
The result of this is most easily shown through a comparison of 6v6 strategies.
The most common NS alien strategy: - One player saves for the hive. - One player saves for upgrade chambers. - One player builds a res tower and then saves for more res towers. - One player builds a res tower and then saves for a Fade. - One player saves for a Fade. - One player saves for a Lerk.
The most common NS2 alien strategy: - One player goes comm (saves his pRes for fade). - One player goes gorge (saves his remaining pRes for fade) and is bored out of his mind because he only has two gameplay tasks: (1) stare at buildings while pressing mouse1 or (2) stare at players while pressing mouse1. - Four players save for Fade.
A number of problems should be obvious from that comparison, but the most obvious and pressing concern, is the so called "lifeform explosion"; the appearance of multiple very powerful lifeforms at the same time, in this case fades. The fade is incredibly powerful in capable hands. In NS, this wasn't a problem, because you would typically only have one or two fades on the field at any one time. Compare that with NS2, where you can have anything between three to six fades on the field at the same time.
In earlier versions of the beta, when the Lerk was still powerful, you would see a different version of this where all six players on the team would go lerk and rush the marine command station, which was an almost automatic win for the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As well, the limitations of the goldsource engine may very well have benefited NS1 by forcing the developers to work within a given context. But with the exception of perhaps the infestation, the problematic mechancis you refered to were not excluded from NS1 due to engine limitations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said they did. The examples of problems in NS2 and the argument that the limitations potentially benefitted NS, had no correlation at all in my post, so what is this even in reply to?
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But our talk about bugs, mechanics problems, and engine inadequacies seems to me to be a bit premature as the game has not yet gone gold itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Our" talk? As far as I can tell, you haven't even tried playing NS2 in a competitive format, and your only function in this thread is to say "Hey guys I think this game is the bestest and I don't understand any of the stuff you're all talking about but let me try to convince you how good it is by telling you how much I love it" repeatedly.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966666:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:22 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 25 2012, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just out of interest, what prevents the 'shotgun explosion' from happening these days?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing, other than the relatively cheap research cost for the marine commander. This also creates problems, but I don't think they affect gameplay as negatively as the lifeform explosion.
<!--quoteo(post=1966660:date=Aug 25 2012, 09:36 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 25 2012, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then why did they build Spark anyway. They clearly stated there were things they wanted to do that couldn't be done with Source (which for the sake of argument we assume to be superior than Gldsource in this regard).
NS1 was also a free mod, pushing an already dated engine to its limits. NS2 is a (pricey) pay-to-play, built from the ground up, that has been in beta approaching 2 years now. I don't see how anyone could make the comparison, and I'll tell you paying costumers will not accept it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I stated earlier that there were a number of built in limitations to the goldsource engine that I feel the developers have resolved by building thier own engine instead of modding a preexisting one.
As to your other point, I wasnt the first one to make the comparison, so who are you disagreeing with? As well, I accept it, and a vocal minority is not representative of the quiet majority.
Your opinion is not without merit, but I'm trying to refocus this conversation along what I believe might be more productive lines. This is a discussion about Competitive vs Public play. Until fanatics most recent post, I have not actually seen anything that specifically attempts to address limitations in a purely competitive scene.
My original post was in response to what I felt was a general leaning of those in this discussion to focus on "immersive" features rather than things which actually limit Competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1966663:date=Aug 25 2012, 10:10 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
I'll give you one example, the rest you'll just have to figure out on your own. Forum search is your friend.
Adding an alien commander necessitated a change in the alien economy. Whereas the aliens in NS had a single type of resources distributed evenly between each player, the aliens in NS2 have two types of resources; one used by the commander (tRes) and one used by the field players (pRes).
While there are some differences, some of which are problematic in their own rights, the alien lifeforms were more or less copied over from NS. These lifeforms were designed and balanced around the concept of the communal res pool in NS, however. This creates significant problems when they are introduced into a completely different economy.
The result of this is most easily shown through a comparison of 6v6 strategies.
The most common NS alien strategy: - One player saves for the hive. - One player saves for upgrade chambers. - One player builds a res tower and then saves for more res towers. - One player builds a res tower and then saves for a Fade. - One player saves for a Fade. - One player saves for a Lerk.
The most common NS2 alien strategy: - One player goes comm (saves his pRes for fade). - One player goes gorge (saves his remaining pRes for fade) and is bored out of his mind because he only has two gameplay tasks: (1) stare at buildings while pressing mouse1 or (2) stare at players while pressing mouse1. - Four players save for Fade.
A number of problems should be obvious from that comparison, but the most obvious and pressing concern, is the so called "lifeform explosion"; the appearance of multiple very powerful lifeforms at the same time, in this case fades. The fade is incredibly powerful in capable hands. In NS, this wasn't a problem, because you would typically only have one or two fades on the field at any one time. Compare that with NS2, where you can have anything between three to six fades on the field at the same time.
In earlier versions of the beta, when the Lerk was still powerful, you would see a different version of this where all six players on the team would go lerk and rush the marine command station, which was an almost automatic win for the aliens.
I never said they did. The examples of problems in NS2 and the argument that the limitations potentially benefitted NS, had no correlation at all in my post, so what is this even in reply to?
"Our" talk? As far as I can tell, you haven't even tried playing NS2 in a competitive format, and your only function in this thread is to say "Hey guys I think this game is the bestest and I don't understand any of the stuff you're all talking about but let me try to convince you how good it is by telling you how much I love it" repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate that you are obviously passionate about your opinion, but I would also greatly appreicate it if you tried not to treat me as an enemy. By questioning your statement, I'm not attacking you. I'm genuinely interested in helping improve both this game, and the quality of this discussion but I find myself at a disadvantage as I lack information.
My point is that you are drawing a direct comparison to NS and its gameplay rather than discussing how the current format of the game can be better in terms of a competitive format. You're quite right in that an explosion of fades in a match is quite debilitating. And your assessment of 2.0-3.0 alien strategy is also quite accurate. What you may not remember is that prior to 2.0, alien and marine strategy was much more diverse and often result in very clever strategies.
But that is perhaps another discussion. In your comparison, you're refering to a fundamental change in the structure of the alien team leading to a more simplified play style in Competitive matches. I would agree that this is problematic in that it leads to less interesting game play, but from the sound of it, the problem is really that the Fade lifeform is so powerful that the explosion of them always overwhelms the marine team.
If this is the case, then the most efficient, and truth be told simplest, solution is to reexamine the Fade, rather than rework the entire Alien game play format.
Edit: Also, just to be clear, when you say that the lifeforms present in NS2 were more balanced around the NS1 economy, I think it only fair to point out that it is not so much the lifeforms, but their abilities that have been balanced. Over the years of NS1's development, various abilities were added, removed, and swapped between lifeforms in an attempt to balance them. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the lifeforms, but balance between them and their cost has always been about their various abilities. There was a time when gorges could spawn skulks, and fades had bile bomb, as only two examples of what I mean.
In your previous post, you refered to problematic features of NS such as the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation. You then responded to a seperate statement I made by suggesting that the goldsrc engine limitations arguably made NS1 a better game, and claimed that the Spark engine is inferior to the goldsource engine. Perhaps I was unclear when I responded to you, but my statement drawing a connection between both of these responses was an attempt to say that while you may be right, the changes you find problematic in NS2 were not left out of NS1 becuase the engine could not handle them.
Several people have refered to NS1's various iterations from 1.0 to 3.0 as progressive and continuous improvements from one version to the next. My point was that NS2 can be viewed as NS1 4.0 in many respects. You yourself said that many features were "copied" from the first game, so I believe this line of thought has merit you can appreicate. What I think many of us fail to remember, is that every time Natural Selection has gone through significant changes to its gameplay, there has always been a vocal part of the community that disagrees with those changes.
I was simply pointing out that had the developers continued using the Goldsource engine for Natural Selection, there is no reason they could not have implemented the current Alien Team format found in NS2.
As to your final point, I don't not understand why you draw such a hostile line in the sand for this dicsussion, other than perhaps you feel very strongly about your position and wish to defend it. I can appreicate that. But instead of insulting me, I would rather you educate me.
You're right, I have participated in no Competitive matches in NS2. But that does not exclude me from the conversation, and if you try not to presume that I am attacking you, and I assure you I am not, I think you may find my position to have some merit and value for this conversation.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1966673:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to your final point, I don't not understand why you draw such a hostile line in the sand for this dicsussion, other than perhaps you feel very strongly about your position and wish to defend it. I can appreicate that. But instead of insulting me, I would rather you educate me.
You're right, I have participated in no Competitive matches in NS2. But that does not exclude me from the conversation, and if you try not to presume that I am attacking you, and I assure you I am not, I think you may find my position to have some merit and value for this conversation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I apologize if I seem harsh, but I feel it is a necessary evil. My hostility is not directed to your person, but rather the type of poster you represent. You would be mistaken to think you are the first person wishing to in some way "helping improve both this game, and the quality of this discussion" by introducing purely tabula rasa opinion. On the contrary, it happens with alarming frequency on these forums and it is usually waste of time for all parties concerned.
Rather than ask us to educate you, you should get your own experience, by playing the game and discussing with your teammates, and then post your opinions based on that experience. Until you do that, your posts have little value and replying to them is not worth the time it takes.
The following is a good example of why:
<!--quoteo(post=1966673:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this is the case, then the most efficient, and truth be told simplest, solution is to reexamine the Fade, rather than rework the entire Alien game play format.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I could write a lengthy reply explaining that this has been suggested before, that UWE's initial fade concept was along those lines, and why it simply doesn't work because of the implications it has on other central parts of gameplay, but it would be a waste of time: Instead of moving the discussion forward, it moves the discussion backwards, to topics that have already been discussed and concluded.
Comments
Yeah. The problems start heaping up when they introduce "immersive" graphical elements that are supposed to be a major part of gameplay, however. The power down darkness is the most obvious example, but I think erupting cysts has far more serious implications -- it's basically an unavoidable flashbang that the alien commander can use whenever he pleases. If basic NS2 gameplay is balanced around the use of such abilities, removing them will necessitate changes to other parts of the game, and then those changes may require even further changes...
Having seen how the beta has progressed thus far, with regards to the number of presales versus actual server population, I can't help but conclude that there are a lot of people out there who love the concept of NS2, but don't find the gameplay entertaining enough to actually play the game. If UWE simply continue in their current path, without improving the basic gameplay implementation, there won't even be a competitive community to make a mod for. I'm sure they'll make a lot of money selling the game to people who think the concept sounds cool, but after the launch dust settles and the initial novelty wears off, the active server population will simply be too small to sustain a reasonably sized competitive community.
I hope I'm wrong, and that I'm just being overly pessimistic.
I'd actually say performance issues are a much bigger reason people who preordered are still sitting out. I also suspect there are a fair amount of people who have software/hardware conflicts (e.g. crashes, black screens, graphical glitches, etc) who are mostly hoping that future patches will fix their issues. I'd suspect gameplay issues are not the main reason most people who preorded aren't playing NS2.
As for the competitive mod, I don't think it will be viable because there is actually little consensus between comp players what should be done. Sure, we can identify things we dislike about NS2, but when it comes to fixing those issues, I think it'll turn out just like Dragon/eh's experience with NS2b. The playerbase may become large enough at some point to be able to host small portions of the competitive community in promod situations, but I think that's about the most we can expect.
In the end the players that decide to create a different version of ns2 will have to believe that they are making the right choice(of course with feedback) and run with it. It will have to be really good and advertised to have any chance of being played which is huge amount of effort. High risk high reward kinda thing.
True, those are indeed not removed using an cl_autohelp 0 kind of command. And there are a lot of those things in NS2 :/
In the end the players that decide to create a different version of ns2 will have to believe that they are making the right choice(of course with feedback) and run with it. It will have to be really good and advertised to have any chance of being played which is huge amount of effort. High risk high reward kinda thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2b was definitely a successful adventure. It demonstrated quite a few mechanics, like abilities tied to 2nd hives again, which ultimately made it back into ns2. I think that it demonstrated that players can create something more balanced in a competitive setting than you see in the default mode. It also showed how hard it is to get everyone on board.
If Tweadle ends up doing something like this, it would be good to get a group of 20-30 people to playtest it a couple times each week. I'd be down.
As for the competitive mod, I don't think it will be viable because there is actually little consensus between comp players what should be done. Sure, we can identify things we dislike about NS2, but when it comes to fixing those issues, I think it'll turn out just like Dragon/eh's experience with NS2b. The playerbase may become large enough at some point to be able to host small portions of the competitive community in promod situations, but I think that's about the most we can expect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to distinguish between those who are sitting out because of performance and those who are sitting out because of game direction, especially when considering the demographic we are looking at - competitive players. While performance is obviously high priority for almost everyone, my experience is that as you get closer to the upper echelons of competitive play, the concerns grow more for game direction. It's not that I disagree with you, just that I think it's evident that game-direction is playing a very big part in its own right and warrants addressing. You only have to look at how many competitive players from NS1 play today.
As for consensus, I feel like the general dialogue between the top NS2 clans has actually been remarkably unanimous. If there's one thing that can be taken from the failed NS2-Balance team, it was that a wide range of competitive players from lots of backgrounds actually agreed almost all of the broad strokes. The disagreements came in the detail for solution implementation rather than the assessments of problem areas. That is, at least, a start.
--
That said, we should begin with the low-hanging fruit; the hud spam, the low-health, blur, bob and general meaningless stuff. It would be interesting to see how much more pleasant playing the game would be just by removing the multitude of redundant afterthoughts.
But I'm a little concerned about the direction most of you are taking the discussion in regards to what changes need to be implemented for "proper" competitive play. Primarily the focus on removing what we've taken to calling "immersive" features like view-bob, darkness, and HUD issues. It hasn't be stated yet, but I really think you need to consider that focusing on these arguably minor features is a terribly inefficient way of finding a solution to the competitive vs public play option.
I honestly haven't kept up with this community since I left NS1 years ago, but I feel I can speak for many of us who remember the old Competitive community when I say that we were in much the same boat as you all appear to be now. That is, during the 1.04 days, when competitive play really began to take off, we were all keenly aware that there were many imbalanced game mechanics that significantly effected the competitive scene. But, as seems to be the case now, there was no real consensus regarding what changes would actually "fix" the game, without breaking something else.
As I recall, NS1 went through numerous iterations following 1.04, with the addition of entire new game modes, not to mention significant revisions to game mechanics, some of which were reverted later on. It is my opinion, and I can only speak for myself when I say this, that NS1 suffered more from this many changes than it did benefit.
What I have never seen stated, or even acknowledged is that the very concept of Natural Selection very different, if not unique among First Person Shooters. It is a game that takes two entirely different teams, each with entirely different game play themes and mechanics, and pits them against each other, not in a pure death match style of who can kill who faster, but in the context of a resource driven real time strategy game.
The issue of balancing two drastically different teams alone is a monster of a challenge. But again, this game is much more than a death match, and so every issue must be carefully considered outside the scope of a "who would win in a 1v1" argument.
The great appeal of NS1, and I certainly believe NS2, is that it has no real peers within the genre of First Person Shooters. Matches in Natural Selection should not, in my opinion, boil down to who has the better numbers, but rather who has the better strategy. I believe I can again speak for many of us veterans of the NS1 Competitive scene when I say that while the original game has its great many imbalances, half of the fun was in the ability to find unique and creative solutions to those problems.
Granted, I do not think any of us should over look the challenges we face in attempting to form a serious competitive community for this game. And I agree with the sentiment that Natural Selection offers an incredibly exciting and engaging competitive atmosphere. But I don't think we should get caught up, as we did with NS1, with the nit-picky details of the games' mechanics, least this version of Natural Selection should follow its predecessor.
Do not ask, "Are things broken?" Instead ask, "What would make this better?"
Can we do without the immersive details? Sure, but that is a slippery slope, and I would caution against that line of thought, and simply say that, with the game in the state it is presently, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it."
If you want to make a list of the features, or mechanics you feel would make Competitive Play <i>better</i>, I think that would be a productive discussion. But do not simply talk about "what needs to be removed." Instead talk about the game itself, and how we can take those things we love about its theme, mechanics, and atmosphere, and appropriately represent them in a competitive setting.
As for consensus, I feel like the general dialogue between the top NS2 clans has actually been remarkably unanimous. If there's one thing that can be taken from the failed NS2-Balance team, it was that a wide range of competitive players from lots of backgrounds actually agreed almost all of the broad strokes. The disagreements came in the detail for solution implementation rather than the assessments of problem areas. That is, at least, a start.
--
That said, we should begin with the low-hanging fruit; the hud spam, the low-health, blur, bob and general meaningless stuff. It would be interesting to see how much more pleasant playing the game would be just by removing the multitude of redundant afterthoughts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we're just talking about competitive NS1 players, then many are probably keeping out because of game direction (likely because its gone too far from NS1). However, I think the majority of the eventual NS2 competitive community will be players that weren't competitive NS1 players (a combination of pub NS1 players, comp players from other games, and just pub NS2 players). For them, I think most are sitting out because of performance issues.
Also, the agreement on problem/non-agreement on solution is always the issue with these types of mods. At the end of the day, what usually happens is that the main mod dev just makes a decision, it makes some of the people happy and others unhappy, who become disillusioned and leave/stop playing the mod (see NS2b during gathers). The only way I've seen these types of promods become successful is that the normal game playerbase is so large, that you can get enough people who agree with the changes.
I have ideas for what I would make NS2b should I make it again, which I intended to make a decision on once 217 is released.
Your point is well taken, and the truth of the matter is that I stopped playing NS1 a few months after it entered the 2.0 phase. However, I think my point has some merit simply in that NS1 went through three major iterations from 1.0 to 3.0, and saw the addition of not only new game modes, but also various tweaks to game mechanics. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has information regarding the changes implemented from one version to the next for NS1, but just one change that I know was fairly significant to me was the Lerk bite change from 1.04 to 2.0, which I believe was reverted near 3.0. In this case, the Lerk bite was removed from the game all together, and then re-implemented later on. This alone was one of the many changes that from 1.04 to 2.0 that caused a stir in the community, and while it may be difficult to remember the specifics, realize that this is likely do more to time than anything else, as it has been nearly a decade since those early days.
My point was not to simply draw a straight line from the NS1 community to the one that exists today, and as I said, I'm very new to this discussion. But it was always my impression that over tweaking a game can take it to bad places. NS1 had a very exciting and popular competitive community despite the numerous "unbalanced" issues in its early days.
To your point though, that there are basic features missing from NS2 that were present in the first game which benefited the competitive community. I believe this is exactly the issue that should be being discussed, rather than an emphasis on mechanics that need tweaking or what "immersive" features can or cannot contribute to competitive play.
If we want to talk about the major differences between public play and competitive play with a game like Natural Selection, we should begin by focusing on the essence of Natural Selections gameplay as it is, and then work our we up from there. I'm not suggesting we try and reinvent the game, rather I'm suggesting that we should be able to agree on <i>what</i> the game is, precisely before we start talking about what changes, if any, are necessary for a proper competitive environment.
The l4d competitive community pretty much only played a modified version of the game because vanilla was too easy, but it never changed any of the mechanics. It only reduced weapon/item spawns and increased tank and witch spawns to make the game more consistent. I agree with you that any mod that changes the mechanics by a large amount will probably only have a small following and it isolates the public players even more from the competitive. IMO UWE is either going to make a good game or they aren't and it'll be mostly a waste of time to try and fix it if it turns out badly. Many of the problems come from the engine itself and things like the core movement mechanics. You'd be just as well making a new version of ns on source or some other engine.
Removing all the visual bull###### just seems like it should be a graphic/config option to me, it's hardly a mod and I think most competitive players would welcome that as the default settings.
Can you reason this out in any way?
Basically what I see is people taking guesses on the potential playerbase, but nothing sticks out as anything better than a very hazy guess. Do we have any actual indication on how many people are simply disagreeing with the game design and how many are waiting for the better performance?
That said, I absolutely love the direction NS2 has taken, and I think its a vast improvement to the original so far. I think what many may be over looking is that, while NS2 has its own issues, it seems to me that the developers were keenly aware of the limitations of the original game and they have done a fantastic job of eliminating the many difficult to overcome "issues" with NS1's mechanics.
The Half-Life engine, whatever it was called, had many built in features that were extremely difficult to program out simply because NS1 was a mod, rather than its own game. There were maps dedicated to teaching players to Bunny hop, Jet packs and Lerk flight speeds were, for a long time, completely uncapped, not to mention tedious to learn properly. Before they changed Lerk flight to smooth it out in 2.0, there were only 3 people in the community who actually played the Lerk with any great effect due to this great difficulty. But even that change created new problems and exploits that allowed players to yo-yo yp and down vertically at tremendous speeds making them nigh impossible to hit.
I'm a bit out of touch with this community for the moment, so I'm not quite sure how many of you remember or played NS1, but its mechanics went threw multiple changes that players either overlooked, because they didn't effect the part of the game they enjoyed, absolutely loved, because it benefitted the way they liked to play, or absolutely hated, because it removed or altered something they already loved.
How many players are still around from NS1, let alone how many competitive players are still around? I couldn't really say. I certainly don't recognize many names in the short time I've been back. But I think its fair to say that there are many people who fell in love with Natural Selection who are still waiting in the wings to see how things turn out. And I think I can say that because, though people left the game for many reasons over the years, one thing we all agreed on at the time, was that Natural Selection was an absolutely fantastic game.
And, regardless of how many of the "old guard" are still around, or even waiting in the wings, I certainly think this game is on the right track to becoming exceedingly popular.
There may be some debate over the things we feel are being done wrong, but I would like to think we can all agree that the game has done a great many things right. I suppose the devils in the details, but overall, I love the new Natural Selection, and I think many of the old Natural Selection players would agree.
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mod looks cool, cant say anything about smoothness though and jumping zick zak with marine is not bunnyhopping.
Basically what I see is people taking guesses on the potential playerbase, but nothing sticks out as anything better than a very hazy guess. Do we have any actual indication on how many people are simply disagreeing with the game design and how many are waiting for the better performance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its all just speculation at this point, but I don't think its too off since a) NS2 requires obscene hardware specs to get decent performance and b) presuming NS2 is successful (e.g. >1000 concurrent players), then it'll bring in many more competitive players than will likely come over from NS1.
I have hacked NS2 to pieces, but the underlying engine is a beauty. When I get v2 back into a playable state, I will release it and encourage you to give it a go. It is changed from default ns2 drastically, but it shows you how well the engine runs, and the kind of movement mechanics you can expect.
In fact, v1.7 which is already released has all the slowdowns on movement removed, and includes bunnyhopping, but the enitites loaded still cause a slowdown.
I have a suggestion for a pro-mod. Remove all slow-downs on movement. That 1 change alone, and a little bit of tweaking makes the pro-mod you want, well and removing all the on screen information!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, Spark does best at doing nothing at all? Not exactly the hallmark of an engine, I'm sure you will agree. NS1 was pretty darn heavy on systems, mainly due to it pushing HL1, a game 4 years dated and with an already slightly older lighting-system when it was released, to levels of polish not yet seen in HL1-modding, and of course also pulling off new things that HL1 wasn't at all designed for. Spark on the other hand is (supposedly) built from the ground up with NS2 in mind, so surely one should expect it to be able to cope without issue.
The solid parts of NS2 gameplay have been directly copied from NS. The problematic parts of NS2 gameplay, however, are the "improvements" like the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1966559:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Half-Life engine, whatever it was called, had many built in features that were extremely difficult to program out simply because NS1 was a mod, rather than its own game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some would argue that the limitations of the goldsrc engine helped make NS a great game. Spark, regardless of its benefits, is currently vastly inferior in terms of playability.
<!--quoteo(post=1966559:date=Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many players are still around from NS1, let alone how many competitive players are still around? I couldn't really say. I certainly don't recognize many names in the short time I've been back. But I think its fair to say that there are many people who fell in love with Natural Selection who are still waiting in the wings to see how things turn out. And I think I can say that because, though people left the game for many reasons over the years, one thing we all agreed on at the time, was that Natural Selection was an absolutely fantastic game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played NS for roughly 8 years at the highest level. Throughout those years I got to know a lot of people, both by playing with them and against them. Many of them bought NS2 instantly when it was available for pre-order, because they were really excited for a sequel. Not a single one of them still plays NS2, because they find it unplayable compared to the original.
The game play is certainly different with respect to NS1, but I would greatly appreciate it if someone could spell out for me how these things limit competitive play.
As well, the limitations of the goldsource engine may very well have benefited NS1 by forcing the developers to work within a given context. But with the exception of perhaps the infestation, the problematic mechancis you refered to were not excluded from NS1 due to engine limitations.
As for players, I too know a number of players from my competitive days in NS1 who bought NS2 out of a desire to see a sequal to a much loved game, but do not actively play it at present. But our talk about bugs, mechanics problems, and engine inadequacies seems to me to be a bit premature as the game has not yet gone gold itself.
It has already been stated that the development team has a habit of pushing engines to their limits, but I do not think it fair of us to begin doubting their capabilities in terms of implementing their vision of the game before the game is even ready for release.
Many forget, that the first 4 months after Natural Selection was released, it was a horrible, laggy, glitchy monster that no one could play well because some bug ground performance to halt and shot everyones' pings through the roof.
I think the discussion about <i>how</i> we can implement a competitive structure to the game can be a productive one, but I caution strongly against a line of thinking that begins with "This is broken and needs to be fixed." Instead, we should try to keep the mindset of game as our focus and work on constructing an agreed upon structure for competitive play, rather than fixate on what we individually feel are mechanics problems.
The danger of proceeding down this path is simply that different individuals feel differently about different aspects of the game. Using myself as an example, several people have pointed to movement as being a problem, but I myself do not understand what they mean as I have encountered no gamebreaking movement problems while playing the game, so I do not see an issue here at all.
To your last point Fanatic, while you may be right that many of the old NS players do not enjoy the new game in its current form, I have trouble believing that without hearing it from them. I started playing Natural Selection when it first came out, and I'm playing this one now. So far, I think this game is fantastic, and while I recognize that it has its rough spots, I very clearly remember the rough spots in Natural Selection. I did not begrudge the first game for its limitations, and I do not see the point in begrudging its successor a few rough spots either, especially as it has not left beta.
Whether or not you enjoy the game I cannot say, but the arguement that no one from the old commpetitive scene likes the game is invalid. I like the game, and I like the direction its taking.
Then why did they build Spark anyway. They clearly stated there were things they wanted to do that couldn't be done with Source (which for the sake of argument we assume to be superior than Gldsource in this regard).
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many forget, that the first 4 months after Natural Selection was released, it was a horrible, laggy, glitchy monster that no one could play well because some bug ground performance to halt and shot everyones' pings through the roof.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 was also a free mod, pushing an already dated engine to its limits. NS2 is a (pricey) pay-to-play, built from the ground up, that has been in beta approaching 2 years now. I don't see how anyone could make the comparison, and I'll tell you paying costumers will not accept it.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
I'll give you one example, the rest you'll just have to figure out on your own. Forum search is your friend.
Adding an alien commander necessitated a change in the alien economy. Whereas the aliens in NS had a single type of resources distributed evenly between each player, the aliens in NS2 have two types of resources; one used by the commander (tRes) and one used by the field players (pRes).
While there are some differences, some of which are problematic in their own rights, the alien lifeforms were more or less copied over from NS. These lifeforms were designed and balanced around the concept of the communal res pool in NS, however. This creates significant problems when they are introduced into a completely different economy.
The result of this is most easily shown through a comparison of 6v6 strategies.
The most common NS alien strategy:
- One player saves for the hive.
- One player saves for upgrade chambers.
- One player builds a res tower and then saves for more res towers.
- One player builds a res tower and then saves for a Fade.
- One player saves for a Fade.
- One player saves for a Lerk.
The most common NS2 alien strategy:
- One player goes comm (saves his pRes for fade).
- One player goes gorge (saves his remaining pRes for fade) and is bored out of his mind because he only has two gameplay tasks: (1) stare at buildings while pressing mouse1 or (2) stare at players while pressing mouse1.
- Four players save for Fade.
A number of problems should be obvious from that comparison, but the most obvious and pressing concern, is the so called "lifeform explosion"; the appearance of multiple very powerful lifeforms at the same time, in this case fades. The fade is incredibly powerful in capable hands. In NS, this wasn't a problem, because you would typically only have one or two fades on the field at any one time. Compare that with NS2, where you can have anything between three to six fades on the field at the same time.
In earlier versions of the beta, when the Lerk was still powerful, you would see a different version of this where all six players on the team would go lerk and rush the marine command station, which was an almost automatic win for the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As well, the limitations of the goldsource engine may very well have benefited NS1 by forcing the developers to work within a given context. But with the exception of perhaps the infestation, the problematic mechancis you refered to were not excluded from NS1 due to engine limitations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said they did. The examples of problems in NS2 and the argument that the limitations potentially benefitted NS, had no correlation at all in my post, so what is this even in reply to?
<!--quoteo(post=1966654:date=Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But our talk about bugs, mechanics problems, and engine inadequacies seems to me to be a bit premature as the game has not yet gone gold itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Our" talk? As far as I can tell, you haven't even tried playing NS2 in a competitive format, and your only function in this thread is to say "Hey guys I think this game is the bestest and I don't understand any of the stuff you're all talking about but let me try to convince you how good it is by telling you how much I love it" repeatedly.
Nothing, other than the relatively cheap research cost for the marine commander. This also creates problems, but I don't think they affect gameplay as negatively as the lifeform explosion.
NS1 was also a free mod, pushing an already dated engine to its limits. NS2 is a (pricey) pay-to-play, built from the ground up, that has been in beta approaching 2 years now. I don't see how anyone could make the comparison, and I'll tell you paying costumers will not accept it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I stated earlier that there were a number of built in limitations to the goldsource engine that I feel the developers have resolved by building thier own engine instead of modding a preexisting one.
As to your other point, I wasnt the first one to make the comparison, so who are you disagreeing with? As well, I accept it, and a vocal minority is not representative of the quiet majority.
Your opinion is not without merit, but I'm trying to refocus this conversation along what I believe might be more productive lines. This is a discussion about Competitive vs Public play. Until fanatics most recent post, I have not actually seen anything that specifically attempts to address limitations in a purely competitive scene.
My original post was in response to what I felt was a general leaning of those in this discussion to focus on "immersive" features rather than things which actually limit Competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1966663:date=Aug 25 2012, 10:10 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 25 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
I'll give you one example, the rest you'll just have to figure out on your own. Forum search is your friend.
Adding an alien commander necessitated a change in the alien economy. Whereas the aliens in NS had a single type of resources distributed evenly between each player, the aliens in NS2 have two types of resources; one used by the commander (tRes) and one used by the field players (pRes).
While there are some differences, some of which are problematic in their own rights, the alien lifeforms were more or less copied over from NS. These lifeforms were designed and balanced around the concept of the communal res pool in NS, however. This creates significant problems when they are introduced into a completely different economy.
The result of this is most easily shown through a comparison of 6v6 strategies.
The most common NS alien strategy:
- One player saves for the hive.
- One player saves for upgrade chambers.
- One player builds a res tower and then saves for more res towers.
- One player builds a res tower and then saves for a Fade.
- One player saves for a Fade.
- One player saves for a Lerk.
The most common NS2 alien strategy:
- One player goes comm (saves his pRes for fade).
- One player goes gorge (saves his remaining pRes for fade) and is bored out of his mind because he only has two gameplay tasks: (1) stare at buildings while pressing mouse1 or (2) stare at players while pressing mouse1.
- Four players save for Fade.
A number of problems should be obvious from that comparison, but the most obvious and pressing concern, is the so called "lifeform explosion"; the appearance of multiple very powerful lifeforms at the same time, in this case fades. The fade is incredibly powerful in capable hands. In NS, this wasn't a problem, because you would typically only have one or two fades on the field at any one time. Compare that with NS2, where you can have anything between three to six fades on the field at the same time.
In earlier versions of the beta, when the Lerk was still powerful, you would see a different version of this where all six players on the team would go lerk and rush the marine command station, which was an almost automatic win for the aliens.
I never said they did. The examples of problems in NS2 and the argument that the limitations potentially benefitted NS, had no correlation at all in my post, so what is this even in reply to?
"Our" talk? As far as I can tell, you haven't even tried playing NS2 in a competitive format, and your only function in this thread is to say "Hey guys I think this game is the bestest and I don't understand any of the stuff you're all talking about but let me try to convince you how good it is by telling you how much I love it" repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate that you are obviously passionate about your opinion, but I would also greatly appreicate it if you tried not to treat me as an enemy. By questioning your statement, I'm not attacking you. I'm genuinely interested in helping improve both this game, and the quality of this discussion but I find myself at a disadvantage as I lack information.
My point is that you are drawing a direct comparison to NS and its gameplay rather than discussing how the current format of the game can be better in terms of a competitive format. You're quite right in that an explosion of fades in a match is quite debilitating. And your assessment of 2.0-3.0 alien strategy is also quite accurate. What you may not remember is that prior to 2.0, alien and marine strategy was much more diverse and often result in very clever strategies.
But that is perhaps another discussion. In your comparison, you're refering to a fundamental change in the structure of the alien team leading to a more simplified play style in Competitive matches. I would agree that this is problematic in that it leads to less interesting game play, but from the sound of it, the problem is really that the Fade lifeform is so powerful that the explosion of them always overwhelms the marine team.
If this is the case, then the most efficient, and truth be told simplest, solution is to reexamine the Fade, rather than rework the entire Alien game play format.
Edit: Also, just to be clear, when you say that the lifeforms present in NS2 were more balanced around the NS1 economy, I think it only fair to point out that it is not so much the lifeforms, but their abilities that have been balanced. Over the years of NS1's development, various abilities were added, removed, and swapped between lifeforms in an attempt to balance them. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the lifeforms, but balance between them and their cost has always been about their various abilities. There was a time when gorges could spawn skulks, and fades had bile bomb, as only two examples of what I mean.
In your previous post, you refered to problematic features of NS such as the alien commander, alien movement, power nodes and infestation. You then responded to a seperate statement I made by suggesting that the goldsrc engine limitations arguably made NS1 a better game, and claimed that the Spark engine is inferior to the goldsource engine. Perhaps I was unclear when I responded to you, but my statement drawing a connection between both of these responses was an attempt to say that while you may be right, the changes you find problematic in NS2 were not left out of NS1 becuase the engine could not handle them.
Several people have refered to NS1's various iterations from 1.0 to 3.0 as progressive and continuous improvements from one version to the next. My point was that NS2 can be viewed as NS1 4.0 in many respects. You yourself said that many features were "copied" from the first game, so I believe this line of thought has merit you can appreicate. What I think many of us fail to remember, is that every time Natural Selection has gone through significant changes to its gameplay, there has always been a vocal part of the community that disagrees with those changes.
I was simply pointing out that had the developers continued using the Goldsource engine for Natural Selection, there is no reason they could not have implemented the current Alien Team format found in NS2.
As to your final point, I don't not understand why you draw such a hostile line in the sand for this dicsussion, other than perhaps you feel very strongly about your position and wish to defend it. I can appreicate that. But instead of insulting me, I would rather you educate me.
You're right, I have participated in no Competitive matches in NS2. But that does not exclude me from the conversation, and if you try not to presume that I am attacking you, and I assure you I am not, I think you may find my position to have some merit and value for this conversation.
You're right, I have participated in no Competitive matches in NS2. But that does not exclude me from the conversation, and if you try not to presume that I am attacking you, and I assure you I am not, I think you may find my position to have some merit and value for this conversation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologize if I seem harsh, but I feel it is a necessary evil. My hostility is not directed to your person, but rather the type of poster you represent. You would be mistaken to think you are the first person wishing to in some way "helping improve both this game, and the quality of this discussion" by introducing purely tabula rasa opinion. On the contrary, it happens with alarming frequency on these forums and it is usually waste of time for all parties concerned.
Rather than ask us to educate you, you should get your own experience, by playing the game and discussing with your teammates, and then post your opinions based on that experience. Until you do that, your posts have little value and replying to them is not worth the time it takes.
The following is a good example of why:
<!--quoteo(post=1966673:date=Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Aug 25 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this is the case, then the most efficient, and truth be told simplest, solution is to reexamine the Fade, rather than rework the entire Alien game play format.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could write a lengthy reply explaining that this has been suggested before, that UWE's initial fade concept was along those lines, and why it simply doesn't work because of the implications it has on other central parts of gameplay, but it would be a waste of time: Instead of moving the discussion forward, it moves the discussion backwards, to topics that have already been discussed and concluded.