What exactly does the Lerk currently do?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">it seems like a pointless lifeform</div>I think the Lerk is currently a pretty useless lifeform. This is from the perspective of an avid alien commander, and someone whose third favourite alien is the Lerk.
So first up, lets look at its offensive capabilities, bite and spikes.
Lerk bite... what to say about lerk bite. Ok, I understand that the Lerk has certain tradeoffs, which in certain respects makes it better than other lifeforms, but lets be serious. I don't enjoy spending 30 res on a lifeform whose bite is weaker than a skulks. If it was only slightly worse, then maybe I would understand, but it is just terrible. The Lerk's bite really is the most pathetic offensive ability in the game. First of all, it forces a paper thin 30 res lifeform to get into close range combat with marines. Ok, it flies around, you can play quite evasively, you can make it hard to hit, so its not all that bad. Then you have to get in 4 or 5 bites just to kill a default light marine most of the time. Then the bite is slow as hell, meaning you actually have to do multiple runs at the marine, because if you stay in close and do two bites, you are dead against anyone half competent. Doing 4 or 5 runs at a marine, hoping that every run scores a hit, takes aaaages, and if the comm is dropping medpacks, well then you can just give up on that kill, because you will never exceed the healing.
Then there is spikes. Now I don't care how good you are, keeping your crosshair on a marine while flying as erratically as possible to avoid going down in 5 seconds is difficult. Factor in the fact that spikes have a bigger spread than the shotgun, and do 1/10th the damage, and you have an ability which is, for all intents and purposes, useless. It is so difficult to do reliable damage with this ability, and even if you do, you are still taking 3 to 4 times longer to kill a marine than a skulk does.
Then there are the "support" abilities, spores and umbra.
Now I'm divided on spores. On the one hand, in theory it seems like a good upgrade. The health loss is negligible really, I mean you can stand in this stuff for ages and pretty much be unaffected, smoking is probably more detrimental to your health. Obscuring marine vision, on the other hand, is very useful, and supports all the other lifeforms very well. On the other hand, as a commander, I always take this upgrade last (as do most other commanders I have noticed). In fact, if it wasn't for the promise of a third hive, and the second support ability, I wouldn't take spores at all.
Umbra is the saving grace of this class, in more ways than one. Firstly, it makes the Lerk very useful, in every aspect of combat. If Lerks have Umbra, you definitely want one at every major battle. Secondly, it actually makes the Lerk fun and rewarding. You hear the noise of bullets being stopped, and you see how much longer everything lives, and you feel like you really are helping your teammates. And its not like its a cushy safe job. Due to the range on Umbra, you actually need to be in the thick of the battle the entire time.
So my question is this: why is the Lerk so bad? Why is its bite and its spikes so feeble? Why are spores so lowly ranked among upgrades? Why must we wait till 3 hives, when the game is essentially already won, before the Lerk gets a proper support ability? And most importantly, what role is the Lerk meant to fulfil? Lets face it, a two hive lerk doesn't support worth a damn, and the lifeform is in a sorry state if its meant to be offensive.
Here are two rough suggestions to get things rolling:
1. Give default Lerk bite and spores. Make hit and run tactics highly beneficial for lerk. I'm talking something like 40 poison damage, straight to HP, over 4 seconds. Make Umbra the first upgrade for lerks at 2 hives, maybe tone it down a bit if its too strong, but honestly I don't think it will be. Make spikes the third hive upgrade, but make them far more accurate. Basically bring them to LMG level accuracy at moderate ranges, and give them a quick accuracy falloff after that.
2. Remove spikes or bite, spores as secondary. Umbra 2 hive, Primal Scream 3 hive.
If you think the Lerk is a killing machine, on the other hand, you are welcome to share your thoughts and strategies. I still enjoy playing Lerk, and would like to be better at it, I usually just think that I'm wasting my time and resources.
So first up, lets look at its offensive capabilities, bite and spikes.
Lerk bite... what to say about lerk bite. Ok, I understand that the Lerk has certain tradeoffs, which in certain respects makes it better than other lifeforms, but lets be serious. I don't enjoy spending 30 res on a lifeform whose bite is weaker than a skulks. If it was only slightly worse, then maybe I would understand, but it is just terrible. The Lerk's bite really is the most pathetic offensive ability in the game. First of all, it forces a paper thin 30 res lifeform to get into close range combat with marines. Ok, it flies around, you can play quite evasively, you can make it hard to hit, so its not all that bad. Then you have to get in 4 or 5 bites just to kill a default light marine most of the time. Then the bite is slow as hell, meaning you actually have to do multiple runs at the marine, because if you stay in close and do two bites, you are dead against anyone half competent. Doing 4 or 5 runs at a marine, hoping that every run scores a hit, takes aaaages, and if the comm is dropping medpacks, well then you can just give up on that kill, because you will never exceed the healing.
Then there is spikes. Now I don't care how good you are, keeping your crosshair on a marine while flying as erratically as possible to avoid going down in 5 seconds is difficult. Factor in the fact that spikes have a bigger spread than the shotgun, and do 1/10th the damage, and you have an ability which is, for all intents and purposes, useless. It is so difficult to do reliable damage with this ability, and even if you do, you are still taking 3 to 4 times longer to kill a marine than a skulk does.
Then there are the "support" abilities, spores and umbra.
Now I'm divided on spores. On the one hand, in theory it seems like a good upgrade. The health loss is negligible really, I mean you can stand in this stuff for ages and pretty much be unaffected, smoking is probably more detrimental to your health. Obscuring marine vision, on the other hand, is very useful, and supports all the other lifeforms very well. On the other hand, as a commander, I always take this upgrade last (as do most other commanders I have noticed). In fact, if it wasn't for the promise of a third hive, and the second support ability, I wouldn't take spores at all.
Umbra is the saving grace of this class, in more ways than one. Firstly, it makes the Lerk very useful, in every aspect of combat. If Lerks have Umbra, you definitely want one at every major battle. Secondly, it actually makes the Lerk fun and rewarding. You hear the noise of bullets being stopped, and you see how much longer everything lives, and you feel like you really are helping your teammates. And its not like its a cushy safe job. Due to the range on Umbra, you actually need to be in the thick of the battle the entire time.
So my question is this: why is the Lerk so bad? Why is its bite and its spikes so feeble? Why are spores so lowly ranked among upgrades? Why must we wait till 3 hives, when the game is essentially already won, before the Lerk gets a proper support ability? And most importantly, what role is the Lerk meant to fulfil? Lets face it, a two hive lerk doesn't support worth a damn, and the lifeform is in a sorry state if its meant to be offensive.
Here are two rough suggestions to get things rolling:
1. Give default Lerk bite and spores. Make hit and run tactics highly beneficial for lerk. I'm talking something like 40 poison damage, straight to HP, over 4 seconds. Make Umbra the first upgrade for lerks at 2 hives, maybe tone it down a bit if its too strong, but honestly I don't think it will be. Make spikes the third hive upgrade, but make them far more accurate. Basically bring them to LMG level accuracy at moderate ranges, and give them a quick accuracy falloff after that.
2. Remove spikes or bite, spores as secondary. Umbra 2 hive, Primal Scream 3 hive.
If you think the Lerk is a killing machine, on the other hand, you are welcome to share your thoughts and strategies. I still enjoy playing Lerk, and would like to be better at it, I usually just think that I'm wasting my time and resources.
Comments
The 216 Lerk was highly effective: I could bite, then blaze a trail of spores that would finish off a marine. Now I can't take on a single light marine with either bite or spikes. I actually found 216 spikes effective against structures (more so than a bite) so the Lerk became a good anti-extractor unit, but now it seems to take as long to spike an extractor as it does to bite it. So no point there.
I would say the fix is to increase either the accuracy or damage of spikes (or both) and go back to spikes as the upgrade, with spores as default. Unfortunately that would take us back to the hey days of Lerks criss-crossing a base and not getting killed, but right now almost no one goes Lerk because they're so poor offensively.
Makes way more sense.
Right now its not as much fun for me, because it just don't fits my personal playstyle. If i want to get in close combat, i'll always prefer skulk and fade.
Right now its not as much fun for me, because it just don't fits my personal playstyle. If i want to get in close combat, i'll always prefer skulk and fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would also be cool, being able to shoot spore clouds instead of a trail. That combined with a slight buff to spikes...possibly op, dunno.
Spores are extremely useful. Not only does the gas deal damage, but it also disorient the marines. In NS1 the spores only dealt damage and created almost no disorientation at all and yet it was extremely useful to the alien team for defense and offense. In NS2 the fact that spores aren't completely transparent anylonger makes it much more useful when creating openings to attack. I don't really understand why the spore upgrade is ignored. Spores help ALOT if you want to attack somewhere and break marine defense, I would say in many cases it is almost impossible to do without spores if you only have lower life forms. At the same time marines can barely attack a location filled with spores (not nearly as easy atleast) without the help of arcs and/or exos. Combine this with the extreme mobility of the lerk and you get a very annoying lifeform that makes the marine team having a hard time doing anything.
Spores are extremely useful. Not only does the gas deal damage, but it also disorient the marines. In NS1 the spores only dealt damage and created almost no disorientation at all and yet it was extremely useful to the alien team for defense and offense. In NS2 the fact that spores aren't completely transparent anylonger makes it much more useful when creating openings to attack. I don't really understand why the spore upgrade is ignored. Spores help ALOT if you want to attack somewhere and break marine defense, I would say in many cases it is almost impossible to do without spores if you only have lower life forms. At the same time marines can barely attack a location filled with spores (not nearly as easy atleast) without the help of arcs and/or exos. Combine this with the extreme mobility of the lerk and you get a very annoying lifeform that makes the marine team having a hard time doing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has less to do with spores being "bad", and more to do with the upgrades it is competing with. Leap is always first, so that one is basically mandatory. Bile Bomb is a very powerful weapon, and even if there isn't an immediate use for it, you want it to be up whenever a gorge gets the opportunity. If not Bile Bomb, then Blink is going to be vital in order to get the Fades into a good position to take back map control. All of these abilities are so central to the functioning of their respective life forms, that they really are very high priority.
Spores? Not so much. Is it a good ability? Sure. Is it central to the functioning of the Lerk? Not really. I've never been in a situation as commander where I've thought to myself "###### We need spores NOW!". Umbra would make me think that.
I'd say either keep them as they are right now, but slightly more accurate or make them more long ranged, decrease its firing ratio and very accurate.
The problem is you don't have the luxery of flying around a marine hoping some spikes will hit, overally its more rewarding to swoop in melee range, bite, perform evasive maneuvers repeat. Medium range is where marines are the strongest, so unless you surprise them you shouldn't stay there too long.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fanatic+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fanatic)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4.5 The alternative "easy way out" solution
1. Keep the current weapon configuration.
2. Remove the flap energy cost or significantly decrease flap and spike energy costs.
3. Drastically increase bite rate of fire, remove damage over time and drastically increase bite energy cost.
4. Increase spore damage and radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to wholeheartedly disagree. At the range you need to be at in order to deal noteworthy damage with spikes, you would be better off using bite. Spikes may be the safer option (I personally don't think it is), but even if it is, you are essentially performing the role of a slow skulk that never dies, at the cost of 30 res.
Out of interest, how many spike hits does it take to kill a level 0 marine? I tried to test it, but the spawn marine marines have incredibly high armour for some reason.
-First being a bridge between fade times for your teamates.
-Second being the ability to still harass entire batches of marines, while still staying relatively evasive, before they get their prototype tech.
As someone mentioned the damage might be negligible to one marine, but several in an area it starts to become noticeable, especially to a bogged down armory or resource expenditure through health packs. Obscuring vision is an underrated bonus to spores.
Early lerk teams with spikes can be very devastating yet believe spores should be the bread and butter of the lerk.
I also have similar concerns about the Lerk, nothing really feels that effective.
Spores? Not so much. Is it a good ability? Sure. Is it central to the functioning of the Lerk? Not really. I've never been in a situation as commander where I've thought to myself "###### We need spores NOW!". Umbra would make me think that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree on bilebomb coming before spore just for the simple reason that it is an offensive ability to a very slow lifeform (yes it can be used against marines early but then I would much rather spore them), sure you can sacrifice a few gorges to try break a marine defense but in most cases the marines are reacting fast and just stops you, and suddenly you've lost tons of p.res and also t.res and the time to get out an ability that didn't do much in the beginning, but if it succeeds it was probably well worth it (very risky though). In my opinion bile bombs are much better later in the game when you have more beefy lifeforms to help you. Spores vs Blink would depend on game situation and also map. If you have a great start then fades are probably the best choice (many will afford it and the spent t.res and time will be well worth it). If the marines got a great start then you need to start breaking defenses and make good use of your lower life forms and then you'll probably rather have spores. You just have to adapt to the situation.
Not sure about "central to the functioning". If the point of the lerks in your team are to try to be flying skulks then no. If you want them to be a support life form (which they should be in my opinion because they're very good at it) then yes.
That increased risk/reward would add a lot of depth to the Lerk class and open up tons of new spike-based playstyles.
I think a more accurate spike, and maybe lower the research cost on lerk spores would be a good change.
If there was points for assists, you would probably see lerks higher up the scoreboard and it would be clearer the impact they can have.
The lerks strength is mobility, it can cross the map faster than anything besides a phasegate, it can annoy to no end, spores can be deadly if used with skulks + Fades, and spikes can be deadly chasing running marines.
The lerk isnt meant to charge in, its meant to harass, bide its time, and strike. It also is a first responder to that single marine axeing your RT.
Ive seen good lerks have more kills than skulks and or Fades.
If there was points for assists, you would probably see lerks higher up the scoreboard and it would be clearer the impact they can have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skulk does the job you describe here better, and costs 30 res less. As for the Lerk's contribution not really being observable, that is some of the problem I guess. I mean, when I get 8 or 10 kills in the first 5 minutes of a game as skulk, only to go Lerk and have made like 3 more by the 15 minute mark, it can get pretty annoying. However, I can easily identify when I'm making a contribution, and I always advocate contributions other that just straight KPD, but I have to ask myself the question, if the Lerk isn't there to get kills, what is he there to do?
Like I said, if the Lerk is meant to be a support character, it is doing a piss poor job of that. If directly dealing damage to marines is your idea of"support", then a skulk with leap does a much better, much cheaper job.
The lerks strength is mobility, it can cross the map faster than anything besides a phasegate, it can annoy to no end, spores can be deadly if used with skulks + Fades, and spikes can be deadly chasing running marines.
The lerk isnt meant to charge in, its meant to harass, bide its time, and strike. It also is a first responder to that single marine axeing your RT.
Ive seen good lerks have more kills than skulks and or Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with increasing gas damage/bite, it is fine as is...but it needs to be a default ability or spike has to be brought up to par. Spikes are trash in their current form. Ok maybe not trash, but inferior to gas as a first ability and doesn't give lerk a support class feel. Gas must be the first ability you get, otherwise lerk feels like a crappier skulk..and not the support it's supposed to be.
Also, yeah, I'd like to see lerks get more credit for what they do. Add in an form of assist to the score to see how much you're contributing.
I would love it if you could shoot spores, like umbra. That would make it a long ranged support class, then bite could be removed. Or make umbra like spores and remove spikes and then he would be an aerial melee oriented class.
Either way, lerks in this build are a fun aspect of the game, nothing that will make or break a team at the moment. But something needs to be done, spores needs to be brought back to base lerking.
I can do that with ranged spores. Hell, I did exactly that in NS1 with ranged spores.
And I seriously doubt the latter. You'll die instantly against a dual exosuit trying to use trail spores.
Since spores was pushed to two hives it should have become ranged, not doing so leaves lerks a joke class.
Lerk Bite does DOT and Heals the lerk over time
This would make the lerk have far more staying power and would bolster his Harrass role
Granted, I'm not sure how effective a return to spores being the default ability would be. The energy cost for spores now seems to be balanced around having adrenaline, making adrenaline a requirement before even considering the use of spores. Did I mention that balancing spores around having adrenaline was a bad move?