There is a problem with fades. They are too volatile for casual pub play. They allow players to simply dominate low to mid skilled players. The problem is that fades brutally punish teams that didn't tech for it, or have the skill level to take them on. Other classes and content don't have this polarizing effect. At a high level competitive environment, sure, they are probably just fine. With a shotgun and upgraded armor, I look forward to take on fades and shoot them in the face. But I groan as I see my pub teammates melt around me. Marines side has to be on the ball with their tech and resources to prepare for fades. Alien sides simply has to wait long enough to get 50 res. Did the marines prepare? No, aliens win.
Im not sure what the solution is. Its a problem we'll continue to run into as we try to make a game that is fun/balanced for both competitive and casual play. There is a reason why there are mods just for competitive play in other games.
There is no problem and as such there is no solution. The Fade is the class with the highest skill cap, you can have walker Fades that die without getting a single kill or you can have pro-fades that might not die but still won't be able to turn around a game if the Kharaa team can't even hold an RT outside of the mainhive.
I think the only problem is that people don't bother to actually play the Fade to learn it's weaknesses and strong points. Being a good Fade goes a long way to actually killing good Fades.
Just a small hint: Don't try to fight the Fade on his terms, intercept him when he's fleeing from a fight to heal up, to fight on your terms. Also keep in mind that the goal is not necessarily to kill the Fade, scaring it off so it's forced to heal is usually enough for Marines to make up some ground, keep that up for a while and the Fade won't have any room to fall back to (defending the hive). At that point he either has to fight against all odds, to defend the hive, or he has to flee to save his 50 res investment at the cost of an hive.
But playing a Fade is the most rewarding feeling you can get in any MP FPS game out there, there is just nothing similar where player skill makes such a huge difference. Removing that would mean removing an integral part of what makes NS unique and i think we've already removed enough of that stuff for the sake of creating an "CoD NS"..
<!--quoteo(post=1971605:date=Sep 5 2012, 12:28 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Sep 5 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no problem and as such there is no solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure thing. I think for a lot of people it isn't a problem. But I predict this no-problem is going to be a problem as the stream of new players start coming in post launch making threads very similar to this one. I think we all should start collecting our notes on this subject, save it on a text file and get ready to copy paste it over and over again.
<!--quoteo(post=1971611:date=Sep 5 2012, 12:37 AM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Sep 5 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure thing. I think for a lot of people it isn't a problem. But I predict this no-problem is going to be a problem as the stream of new players start coming in post launch making threads very similar to this one. I think we all should start collecting our notes on this subject, save it on a text file and get ready to copy paste it over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've got my notes memorized.
<!--quoteo(post=1971611:date=Sep 5 2012, 05:37 AM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Sep 5 2012, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure thing. I think for a lot of people it isn't a problem. But I predict this no-problem is going to be a problem as the stream of new players start coming in post launch making threads very similar to this one. I think we all should start collecting our notes on this subject, save it on a text file and get ready to copy paste it over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that train already left the station when UWE decided to focus NS2 design on "competitive balance" and not on making the game natural to understand/master by just playing it. I'm well aware that especially the Fade had been one of the big reasons why many people never gave NS1 a real chance, because they considered the mod "unbalanced" after getting raped by players that perfected their Fade gameplay over years.
So at this point there are not many options left, one would be to lower to max skill ceiling of the fade and as such it's overall potential. Make it easier to use for new player but at the same time make them less volatile in the hands of experienced players. But doing that would mean killing off yet another unique NS trait..
The other option? Educate people about the Fade, how to play it, how to counter it, how to kill it. But that won't work trough tooltips inside the game. That's an task only the community can accomplish by being patient with new players and explaining to them what's going on.
Or it could end up as no problem at all, maybe gamers have changed and by now and will see a good Fade as something they want to be, instead of it being something they feel the need to complain about. But at this point in time it's basically impossible to predict imho.
<!--quoteo(post=1971631:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:10 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Sep 5 2012, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or it could end up as no problem at all, maybe gamers have changed and by now and will see a good Fade as something they want to be, instead of it being something they feel the need to complain about. But at this point in time it's basically impossible to predict imho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pfaaaaaaaahahahahahaha.
Here's to that, mate. I don't believe it for a second, but it sure would be nice if I were wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1971547:date=Sep 4 2012, 11:56 PM:name=Sherwood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sherwood @ Sep 4 2012, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ahh yes the age old /thread typed out to look like the end of an html code since you say it then it must be so. The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My goodness you're deluded. How about you provide a video of a fade going 148-0 or whatever ridiculous kdr you came up with earlier before making such requests.
Great players will stomp bad players no matter what class they're playing with. I've seen high KDR lerks, skulks and fades (but never a god damned 148-0 fade you little troll you) and that doesn't make any of them OP.
Also, earlier in the thread you mentioned how a fade is 'invincible' because it can just retreat after taking two shotgun blasts, regen and come back just to repeat the process and that this process is somehow 'winning'. Retreating to heal takes a long time, even if there are crags. With cara it could take 30 seconds easily to blink back to the hive and wait for your health to come back. It takes only a few seconds for a fade to lose all that health to a couple well placed shotgun blasts. A fade out of action 90% of the time is not being an effective fade. This is what a good shotgunner can do.
The fact that you joined these forums just the other day really shows, I'm glad UWE doesn't just listen to every person making extreme claims on the forums.
<!--quoteo(post=1971016:date=Sep 4 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 4 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I usually see groups of 4+ marines with a few shotguns and upgrades handle a fade, maybe 2.
The only times that fades completely dominate is when the game is already lost, resource wise and upgrade wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then it heads to the argument that there must be no Power Node :) Isn't base rush at late game a game which aliens are already lost? You are even telling something unacceptable. Good fade player dominates the game even it's almost fair as 50:50, while Aliens can turn the 99% lost game on 180 degress at one shot. And then the argument will be spreaded to cyst: Do Aliens lose every structures' function by losing a single cyst near hive?
That means, there is no 'lost game' already in 8 minutes or some. Even 99% lost game like i said above can be turned into win by base rushing of skulk. But why for marines nothing?
Well that is wrong, and the Marines prooved it this night that a 99% lost game can be turned around by 2 simpel sneak phases and then holding the pressure, Skulkrush can be denied by 1 GL and boom.
Back to topic, all I see is K/D, K/D and K/D well if this game would be a FPS I would care about K/D but it isn't. How many times I got a freaking K/D but still lost the game? How many times a Fade went down on myshoutgun? How many time a Fade died on my mines because he took the same escaperoute all the time, how many times a Fade got trapped by me in his "save" escaperoute? Countless times!
Weeks over weeks it was normal that a Fade could get a high K/D and suddenly when the new players come it is a problem? The best counter to a Fade is to think a bit more than kill, kill, kill and killlll! Use some braincells and suddenly a Fade is just another Alien on the Field.
Much of what has been discussed has been about pub play. Despite the thread being full of WTF, I'll put up my 2 cents as a competitive player. Background: I often play comm on both sides and when not comming as aliens I like to go for the early fade. I'm somewhat good as a fade and do enjoy playing it. I think I have a fairly good grasp of the game. Here is a game from yesterday for reference on competitive alien play: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0l4cApA1ys" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0l4cApA1ys</a>
As balance currently stands, marines dominate early game. Rushed leap comes out at 4min, then possibly cele and cara at 6-8min mark. If aliens have been playing well and have managed to hold on to 2-3 rts), they can dream of the first fade at 10min. If they get that far without successful marine hive lockdowns, jetpack rushes, GLs and shottys, they have a fighting chance at finishing the game.
Usually aliens don't use lerks or onos much. Lerks start to die pretty easily once marines get upgrades, and lerking is pretty difficult. At least for me that is. Onos is underpowered and needs boost badly. Skilled fading is key for marine victory, although good gorging and solid skulking are of course needed.
Now, in competitive gaming the fade is the only thing (aside from lucky baserushes) that aliens can use to win. At that level the fade is not OP. Sure, would be nice to see more lerks and onos, but that is more an issue with them currently needing some boost than fades being super-OP. Fades are what the aliens use to win with. This needs to diversify, sure, but the game is pretty balanced at the moment.
The most OP weapon on the game? Early game LMG. Skilled marines go 10-0 and prevent 2nd hive -> no fades. Second? Must be early shotgun ;)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
If fades get made any worse, then just remove them.
So far last 2 builds with fades I am 1-15. Yes, You read that right. I have made 1 kill as a fade and died 15 times. Fades need to be way better!!!
Or maybe, people with different skill levels and abilities are better with certain weapons than with others...
Also the fade is obviously the first alien designed, the first alien created, and the one with the most love. The fade is a super class, but really requires skill to use. I can blink in and have 5 swipes at marines, miss every time, then die while blinking out. Guess what, I don't play as fade anymore. Maybe that skews the results, bad aliens don't use those lifeforms any more, whereas a bad marine is always a bad marine. I can go and play as a good gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=1971747:date=Sep 5 2012, 01:55 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 5 2012, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can blink in and have 5 swipes at marines, miss every time, then die while blinking out. Guess what, I don't play as fade anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offtopic: "5 swipes at marines" is something a pro fade might try on noobs. Might, and probably they would escape before attempting 4th swipe. Fade is fragile, but if you keep blinking in and out, you can usually stay alive... Also, fading is fun, so I'd urge you to try and practice it. You can start by practising by blinking in and out again without even trying to attack and then move your way up to attempting one swipe at marines... Once that goes reasonably well, you start worrying about killing something ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1971747:date=Sep 5 2012, 03:55 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 5 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If fades get made any worse, then just remove them.
So far last 2 builds with fades I am 1-15. Yes, You read that right. I have made 1 kill as a fade and died 15 times. Fades need to be way better!!!
Or maybe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but unfortunately it is because you are bad at playing it... so that means n..ew..bie..
Fade are weaker, but still the most powerful lifeform of NS series. So sorry, but it is way harder to die 15 times wih 1 kill than kill 15 and die once as fade. It is actually almost impossible. Not even comparable. Therefore your claim is not acceptable because problem is not a balance but you. Sorry again but that is fact.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
I know I am bad as a fade, I was worse as a fade in NS1, the NS2 fade is easier to use :)
My point was some people will just be great at fade and others, like me, will always be crap.
Because I am crap, I don't play fade, that is why people only notice Uber fades. I play a damn good Gorge, not bad alien comm, but Fading is not my thing.
As marines, there is nowhere to hide, you are just good or crap, but people never notice a crap fade, only the good ones, and they same the game is out of balance or the fade is OP, when it is just not the case.
My example was to demonstrate this fact. What can I say, I am a high speed bouncing shooter player, not a aim very carefully player, so all alien melee attacksgive me problem, fortunately, the Gorge is entirely non-melee :)
SintJoin Date: 2007-01-09Member: 59540Members, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2012
When you are playing as fade you aren't really supposed to die if you are not defending an area like hive or trying to finish the game. Fades blink in to swipe and blink out to regen. So keeping them off regening most of the time is the key. Fade KDR doesn't matter at all. If its high it usually means that marine team has lost early game, are doing lot of soloing or have given up.
I can't agree with fades being overpowered anymore, and this is coming from someone who greatly disliked them before the last patch. They're almost balanced right now, they just need a few more tweaks and perhaps not so easy for an alien commander to get early game They're not meant to be killed easily...you need to apply pressure and push them back.
The reason you see so many is simply because Lerks/Onos aren't very up to par and need to be rebalanced. Add to that the slightly boring gameplay of a Gorge.
Remember back in the good old days of NS when Blink was a teleport? Fun times! I have no idea who came up with the idea that fades should be soaring through the air like a lerk on ecstasy , but NS was never the same ever since.
Nostalgia aside, surely we can agree that the current Blink implementation is a bit weird, both thematically and gameplay wise? Having the Fade to keep momentum after a Blink allows it to keep full blink speed at all times never having to worry about energy. Isn't Blink thematically still a teleport? Should there really be momentum?
Even without the momentum, a Fade with adrenaline can still easily travel almost instantly to any point on the map. It can swoop into the Marine base, take out a marine and swoop out, with energy to spare, leaving the others in the dust . The counter to this, as people suggest, is having the Marines move in packs of at least 5 at all times and learn to aim.
Some people comment that <i>"The Fade is just a killing machine, it can't damage buildings, 80-2 stats doesn't matter"</i>. Sure, having loads of kills doesn't (necessarily) win you the game, but it sure makes the game boring for the other team. A single player shouldn't be able to make you feel completely helpless.
The other thing I hear is <i> "It isn't broken, it's just that a few people are really skilled with it"</i>. The later part I agree with. Some people are extremely good Fades, but couldn't that also be a consequence of the Fade being slightly OP for allowing that kind of dominant play? There's a reason they banned Meta Knight from competitive play SSBB, and it's not because people got too good with him.
As it stands today, the Fade is the be all end all of lifeforms for the aliens. There's barely any use for anything else. My suggestions on how to fix it is based around the idea that it should complement the other aliens abilities, not replace them. Pick one, any one!
1) Make the fade a true hit and run glass cannon. Reduce its health and/or armor. Keep its mobility and devastating killing capacity.
2) Make it not be a flying ecstasy lerk. Only blink in a straight line and no momentum. Blink is a teleport! It would still be able to travel across the map very fast and teleport in and out of marine base, just not with the same precision as today.
3) Reduce the effectiveness of Blink by having it cost more energy. As it is now, you don't even have to watch your energy meter.
Also, why was the Flamethrowers nerfed to oblivion? It was a nice gameplay mechanic of having it deny the aliens and their structures the use of abilities. If I could put a Fade on fire and make it harder for it to escape I'd be happier. But I'll save this for the appropriate thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1971770:date=Sep 5 2012, 04:28 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Sep 5 2012, 04:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know I am bad as a fade, I was worse as a fade in NS1, the NS2 fade is easier to use :)
My point was some people will just be great at fade and others, like me, will always be crap.
Because I am crap, I don't play fade, that is why people only notice Uber fades. I play a damn good Gorge, not bad alien comm, but Fading is not my thing.
As marines, there is nowhere to hide, you are just good or crap, but people never notice a crap fade, only the good ones, and they same the game is out of balance or the fade is OP, when it is just not the case.
My example was to demonstrate this fact. What can I say, I am a high speed bouncing shooter player, not a aim very carefully player, so all alien melee attacksgive me problem, fortunately, the Gorge is entirely non-melee :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your bad with fade, then you are terrible in general. Fade is the most EZ-mode I've ever played in an FPS.
I get average kills with marine or any other alien life form. With fade? Forget about it. I am getting the fabled 40-1 KD ratio the OP is talking about. Even when marines are turtled to one base with full upgrades, with a fade you can blink in take a few swipes at marines or structures and blink back out sometimes not even getting hit at all.
I haven't played this game for nearly a year (until today), and my only experience with fades is, that I got no clue how to kill them.
Once they decide to attack me, I am dead. With their damage output all it needs is around 2 hits for them to kill me. And unlike other classes, they got the best tool for getting up close within no time.
I'm not sure how much health they got, but without an exosuit I have yet to see a shade die in 12ish games. That doesn't seem right to me. Also they seem to be able to blink as much as they want? Why is there no cooldown on blink? The blink speed is so quick, that no one seems to be able to hit them while blinking anyway.
I don't want to call them overpowered yet, so I gotta ask. How do you actually kill them?
<!--quoteo(post=1972202:date=Sep 5 2012, 04:59 PM:name=abYsss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (abYsss @ Sep 5 2012, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once they decide to attack me, I am dead. With their damage output all it needs is around 2 hits for them to kill me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably because your Comm is too busy rushing exosuits instead of grabbing upgrades as it takes 4 swipes to kill an armor 3.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited September 2012
Actually no, if both shotgun marine and fade fire at the exact same time, point blank without moving, a fade should kill the marine first i believe. But this isnt a thread about 1 vs 1 so its really a moot point anyways..
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->The claim of course is no more solid than any other without numbers or specific notable events, but that's been theme here already so here's my feelings on it.
The fade feels either as a paragon of where skill as a class should be at in general or an example of a runaway class that needs to be reined into line with the rest of them. Perhaps both of those claims are even true and the game does need a competitive mod to divide pub and pro. Personally I'd prefer to just see the ceiling raised for the others, but right now the state of it in the game as a whole feels off for now to me. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1972284:date=Sep 5 2012, 06:54 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Sep 5 2012, 06:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually no, if both shotgun marine and fade fire at the exact same time, point blank without moving, a fade should kill the marine first i believe. But this isnt a thread about 1 vs 1 so its really a moot point anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I think the popular exaggeration inside this thread is that one fade can easily kill 5 marines wielding shotguns without breaking a sweat.
<!--quoteo(post=1972314:date=Sep 6 2012, 01:21 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Sep 6 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I think the popular exaggeration inside this thread is that one fade can easily kill 5 marines wielding shotguns without breaking a sweat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. The issue with fades is that they can blink as much as they want and pick out single marines out of large groups without the risk of dieing. There should be a cooldow, nothing more then a couple of seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1972529:date=Sep 5 2012, 11:04 PM:name=abYsss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (abYsss @ Sep 5 2012, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. The issue with fades is that they can blink as much as they want and pick out single marines out of large groups without the risk of dieing. There should be a cooldow, nothing more then a couple of seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is ALWAYS a risk of dying in combat. That statement is ignorant and incorrect.
<!--quoteo(post=1972542:date=Sep 6 2012, 06:39 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 6 2012, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is ALWAYS a risk of dying in combat. That statement is ignorant and incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I admit I haven't played many games yet, but I have yet to see a Fade die against anything but an exosuit, so excuse my exaggeration.
2 Point blank shotguns was also false. I have done that many of times without the fade getting killed (while it was also being shot at by rifles).
So my question still stands, how to effectively kill a fade/kill a fade at all? It seems to be solely depended on whether the Fade player messes up or not.
Comments
<u><i><b>SHOTGUNS</b></i></u>.
There is a problem with fades. They are too volatile for casual pub play. They allow players to simply dominate low to mid skilled players.
The problem is that fades brutally punish teams that didn't tech for it, or have the skill level to take them on. Other classes and content don't have this polarizing effect. At a high level competitive environment, sure, they are probably just fine. With a shotgun and upgraded armor, I look forward to take on fades and shoot them in the face. But I groan as I see my pub teammates melt around me.
Marines side has to be on the ball with their tech and resources to prepare for fades. Alien sides simply has to wait long enough to get 50 res. Did the marines prepare? No, aliens win.
Im not sure what the solution is. Its a problem we'll continue to run into as we try to make a game that is fun/balanced for both competitive and casual play. There is a reason why there are mods just for competitive play in other games.
The Fade is the class with the highest skill cap, you can have walker Fades that die without getting a single kill or you can have pro-fades that might not die but still won't be able to turn around a game if the Kharaa team can't even hold an RT outside of the mainhive.
I think the only problem is that people don't bother to actually play the Fade to learn it's weaknesses and strong points. Being a good Fade goes a long way to actually killing good Fades.
Just a small hint: Don't try to fight the Fade on his terms, intercept him when he's fleeing from a fight to heal up, to fight on your terms. Also keep in mind that the goal is not necessarily to kill the Fade, scaring it off so it's forced to heal is usually enough for Marines to make up some ground, keep that up for a while and the Fade won't have any room to fall back to (defending the hive). At that point he either has to fight against all odds, to defend the hive, or he has to flee to save his 50 res investment at the cost of an hive.
But playing a Fade is the most rewarding feeling you can get in any MP FPS game out there, there is just nothing similar where player skill makes such a huge difference. Removing that would mean removing an integral part of what makes NS unique and i think we've already removed enough of that stuff for the sake of creating an "CoD NS"..
Sure thing. I think for a lot of people it isn't a problem. But I predict this no-problem is going to be a problem as the stream of new players start coming in post launch making threads very similar to this one. I think we all should start collecting our notes on this subject, save it on a text file and get ready to copy paste it over and over again.
I've got my notes memorized.
I think that train already left the station when UWE decided to focus NS2 design on "competitive balance" and not on making the game natural to understand/master by just playing it.
I'm well aware that especially the Fade had been one of the big reasons why many people never gave NS1 a real chance, because they considered the mod "unbalanced" after getting raped by players that perfected their Fade gameplay over years.
So at this point there are not many options left, one would be to lower to max skill ceiling of the fade and as such it's overall potential. Make it easier to use for new player but at the same time make them less volatile in the hands of experienced players. But doing that would mean killing off yet another unique NS trait..
The other option? Educate people about the Fade, how to play it, how to counter it, how to kill it. But that won't work trough tooltips inside the game. That's an task only the community can accomplish by being patient with new players and explaining to them what's going on.
Or it could end up as no problem at all, maybe gamers have changed and by now and will see a good Fade as something they want to be, instead of it being something they feel the need to complain about. But at this point in time it's basically impossible to predict imho.
Pfaaaaaaaahahahahahaha.
Here's to that, mate. I don't believe it for a second, but it sure would be nice if I were wrong.
The facts are plain to see even in an anecdotal story, people have posted the simple facts of fades abilities, we have confirmed results of there abilities by you and others in this thread.
No one including you seems to argue any of those points which are the facts. You simply argue that my personal side of the argument is flawed because I don't have a spreadsheet on here showing the sharp decline in skill needed to play a fade vs other class's of the game. Nor a complete listing of each fade and his max kill/min death ratios to show you incontrovertible evidence. But pretty much all of us in this thread who see the issue have also experienced the issue both on the side of the aliens and against the aliens.
When I am on the alien team and there is one of these fades in the game its boring. Every kill is taken I don't get any, the team as a whole just shifts into attacking buildings because there are no marines to fight.
honestly A game should never reach the point where the fun that should be there is missing simply because one of its class's is unbalanced.
I am going to bed, I am sure the fade masters will all hop on agree with each other and say they solved it nothing is wrong with fades they will say and force the thread to close. lol let them, I would love to see them justify it without resorting to the standard trolling or saying the server was full of noobs.
Let's have them provide a video of there 130-5 jetpack shotgun run like GORGEous who has literally been trolling the entire thread. I would love to see a video bud I want to see the entire thing of you going 130-5.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My goodness you're deluded. How about you provide a video of a fade going 148-0 or whatever ridiculous kdr you came up with earlier before making such requests.
Great players will stomp bad players no matter what class they're playing with. I've seen high KDR lerks, skulks and fades (but never a god damned 148-0 fade you little troll you) and that doesn't make any of them OP.
Also, earlier in the thread you mentioned how a fade is 'invincible' because it can just retreat after taking two shotgun blasts, regen and come back just to repeat the process and that this process is somehow 'winning'. Retreating to heal takes a long time, even if there are crags. With cara it could take 30 seconds easily to blink back to the hive and wait for your health to come back. It takes only a few seconds for a fade to lose all that health to a couple well placed shotgun blasts. A fade out of action 90% of the time is not being an effective fade. This is what a good shotgunner can do.
The fact that you joined these forums just the other day really shows, I'm glad UWE doesn't just listen to every person making extreme claims on the forums.
The only times that fades completely dominate is when the game is already lost, resource wise and upgrade wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then it heads to the argument that there must be no Power Node :) Isn't base rush at late game a game which aliens are already lost? You are even telling something unacceptable. Good fade player dominates the game even it's almost fair as 50:50, while Aliens can turn the 99% lost game on 180 degress at one shot. And then the argument will be spreaded to cyst: Do Aliens lose every structures' function by losing a single cyst near hive?
That means, there is no 'lost game' already in 8 minutes or some. Even 99% lost game like i said above can be turned into win by base rushing of skulk. But why for marines nothing?
Back to topic, all I see is K/D, K/D and K/D well if this game would be a FPS I would care about K/D but it isn't. How many times I got a freaking K/D but still lost the game?
How many times a Fade went down on myshoutgun? How many time a Fade died on my mines because he took the same escaperoute all the time, how many times a Fade got trapped by me in his "save" escaperoute?
Countless times!
Weeks over weeks it was normal that a Fade could get a high K/D and suddenly when the new players come it is a problem? The best counter to a Fade is to think a bit more than kill, kill, kill and killlll! Use some braincells and suddenly a Fade is just another Alien on the Field.
As balance currently stands, marines dominate early game. Rushed leap comes out at 4min, then possibly cele and cara at 6-8min mark. If aliens have been playing well and have managed to hold on to 2-3 rts), they can dream of the first fade at 10min. If they get that far without successful marine hive lockdowns, jetpack rushes, GLs and shottys, they have a fighting chance at finishing the game.
Usually aliens don't use lerks or onos much. Lerks start to die pretty easily once marines get upgrades, and lerking is pretty difficult. At least for me that is. Onos is underpowered and needs boost badly. Skilled fading is key for marine victory, although good gorging and solid skulking are of course needed.
Now, in competitive gaming the fade is the only thing (aside from lucky baserushes) that aliens can use to win. At that level the fade is not OP. Sure, would be nice to see more lerks and onos, but that is more an issue with them currently needing some boost than fades being super-OP. Fades are what the aliens use to win with. This needs to diversify, sure, but the game is pretty balanced at the moment.
The most OP weapon on the game? Early game LMG. Skilled marines go 10-0 and prevent 2nd hive -> no fades. Second? Must be early shotgun ;)
So far last 2 builds with fades I am 1-15. Yes, You read that right. I have made 1 kill as a fade and died 15 times. Fades need to be way better!!!
Or maybe, people with different skill levels and abilities are better with certain weapons than with others...
Also the fade is obviously the first alien designed, the first alien created, and the one with the most love. The fade is a super class, but really requires skill to use. I can blink in and have 5 swipes at marines, miss every time, then die while blinking out. Guess what, I don't play as fade anymore. Maybe that skews the results, bad aliens don't use those lifeforms any more, whereas a bad marine is always a bad marine. I can go and play as a good gorge.
Offtopic: "5 swipes at marines" is something a pro fade might try on noobs. Might, and probably they would escape before attempting 4th swipe. Fade is fragile, but if you keep blinking in and out, you can usually stay alive... Also, fading is fun, so I'd urge you to try and practice it. You can start by practising by blinking in and out again without even trying to attack and then move your way up to attempting one swipe at marines... Once that goes reasonably well, you start worrying about killing something ;)
So far last 2 builds with fades I am 1-15. Yes, You read that right. I have made 1 kill as a fade and died 15 times. Fades need to be way better!!!
Or maybe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but unfortunately it is because you are bad at playing it... so that means n..ew..bie..
Fade are weaker, but still the most powerful lifeform of NS series. So sorry, but it is way harder to die 15 times wih 1 kill than kill 15 and die once as fade. It is actually almost impossible. Not even comparable. Therefore your claim is not acceptable because problem is not a balance but you. Sorry again but that is fact.
My point was some people will just be great at fade and others, like me, will always be crap.
Because I am crap, I don't play fade, that is why people only notice Uber fades. I play a damn good Gorge, not bad alien comm, but Fading is not my thing.
As marines, there is nowhere to hide, you are just good or crap, but people never notice a crap fade, only the good ones, and they same the game is out of balance or the fade is OP, when it is just not the case.
My example was to demonstrate this fact. What can I say, I am a high speed bouncing shooter player, not a aim very carefully player, so all alien melee attacksgive me problem, fortunately, the Gorge is entirely non-melee :)
The reason you see so many is simply because Lerks/Onos aren't very up to par and need to be rebalanced. Add to that the slightly boring gameplay of a Gorge.
Nostalgia aside, surely we can agree that the current Blink implementation is a bit weird, both thematically and gameplay wise? Having the Fade to keep momentum after a Blink allows it to keep full blink speed at all times never having to worry about energy. Isn't Blink thematically still a teleport? Should there really be momentum?
Even without the momentum, a Fade with adrenaline can still easily travel almost instantly to any point on the map. It can swoop into the Marine base, take out a marine and swoop out, with energy to spare, leaving the others in the dust . The counter to this, as people suggest, is having the Marines move in packs of at least 5 at all times and learn to aim.
Some people comment that <i>"The Fade is just a killing machine, it can't damage buildings, 80-2 stats doesn't matter"</i>. Sure, having loads of kills doesn't (necessarily) win you the game, but it sure makes the game boring for the other team. A single player shouldn't be able to make you feel completely helpless.
The other thing I hear is <i> "It isn't broken, it's just that a few people are really skilled with it"</i>. The later part I agree with. Some people are extremely good Fades, but couldn't that also be a consequence of the Fade being slightly OP for allowing that kind of dominant play? There's a reason they banned Meta Knight from competitive play SSBB, and it's not because people got too good with him.
As it stands today, the Fade is the be all end all of lifeforms for the aliens. There's barely any use for anything else. My suggestions on how to fix it is based around the idea that it should complement the other aliens abilities, not replace them. Pick one, any one!
1) Make the fade a true hit and run glass cannon. Reduce its health and/or armor. Keep its mobility and devastating killing capacity.
2) Make it not be a flying ecstasy lerk. Only blink in a straight line and no momentum. Blink is a teleport! It would still be able to travel across the map very fast and teleport in and out of marine base, just not with the same precision as today.
3) Reduce the effectiveness of Blink by having it cost more energy. As it is now, you don't even have to watch your energy meter.
Also, why was the Flamethrowers nerfed to oblivion? It was a nice gameplay mechanic of having it deny the aliens and their structures the use of abilities. If I could put a Fade on fire and make it harder for it to escape I'd be happier. But I'll save this for the appropriate thread.
My point was some people will just be great at fade and others, like me, will always be crap.
Because I am crap, I don't play fade, that is why people only notice Uber fades. I play a damn good Gorge, not bad alien comm, but Fading is not my thing.
As marines, there is nowhere to hide, you are just good or crap, but people never notice a crap fade, only the good ones, and they same the game is out of balance or the fade is OP, when it is just not the case.
My example was to demonstrate this fact. What can I say, I am a high speed bouncing shooter player, not a aim very carefully player, so all alien melee attacksgive me problem, fortunately, the Gorge is entirely non-melee :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your bad with fade, then you are terrible in general. Fade is the most EZ-mode I've ever played in an FPS.
I get average kills with marine or any other alien life form. With fade? Forget about it. I am getting the fabled 40-1 KD ratio the OP is talking about. Even when marines are turtled to one base with full upgrades, with a fade you can blink in take a few swipes at marines or structures and blink back out sometimes not even getting hit at all.
Once they decide to attack me, I am dead. With their damage output all it needs is around 2 hits for them to kill me. And unlike other classes, they got the best tool for getting up close within no time.
I'm not sure how much health they got, but without an exosuit I have yet to see a shade die in 12ish games. That doesn't seem right to me.
Also they seem to be able to blink as much as they want? Why is there no cooldown on blink?
The blink speed is so quick, that no one seems to be able to hit them while blinking anyway.
I don't want to call them overpowered yet, so I gotta ask. How do you actually kill them?
That's probably because your Comm is too busy rushing exosuits instead of grabbing upgrades as it takes 4 swipes to kill an armor 3.
What kind of salad is that in the background?
Yes, about as long as it takes to fire a shotgun twice. Which is enough to incapacitate a fade.
But this isnt a thread about 1 vs 1 so its really a moot point anyways..
The fade feels either as a paragon of where skill as a class should be at in general or an example of a runaway class that needs to be reined into line with the rest of them. Perhaps both of those claims are even true and the game does need a competitive mod to divide pub and pro. Personally I'd prefer to just see the ceiling raised for the others, but right now the state of it in the game as a whole feels off for now to me.
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But this isnt a thread about 1 vs 1 so its really a moot point anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I think the popular exaggeration inside this thread is that one fade can easily kill 5 marines wielding shotguns without breaking a sweat.
No.
The issue with fades is that they can blink as much as they want and pick out single marines out of large groups without the risk of dieing.
There should be a cooldow, nothing more then a couple of seconds.
The issue with fades is that they can blink as much as they want and pick out single marines out of large groups without the risk of dieing.
There should be a cooldow, nothing more then a couple of seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is ALWAYS a risk of dying in combat. That statement is ignorant and incorrect.
I admit I haven't played many games yet, but I have yet to see a Fade die against anything but an exosuit, so excuse my exaggeration.
2 Point blank shotguns was also false. I have done that many of times without the fade getting killed (while it was also being shot at by rifles).
So my question still stands, how to effectively kill a fade/kill a fade at all?
It seems to be solely depended on whether the Fade player messes up or not.