I honestly think changes aren't needed until performance is further optimized to a steady 60+ FPS. My biggest pet peeve vs fades is if my framerate suddenly hitches. Otherwise, I'd normally blame it on my inability to aim, dodge, or stick with teammates. If any balancing is needed, I'd perhaps decrease the rate at which adrenaline regenerates energy during combat, while leaving the regen rate out-of-combat intact. It's been known that adrenaline is ridiculous for tapping blink indefinitely and making marines waste ammo before attacking. For many builds, it's been advantageous for highly mobile aliens to exploit marines' performance issues (framerate I mean). Once we can achieve a higher, steady FPS, I think aliens will die more often to hitscan weapons. I feel like I've repeated this before. D:
One thing I've always wanted someone to do just for kicks is make a video between a marine and a fade, 2 rines vs 1 fade, 2v2, etc. Have them between strictly competitive players, and then a separate instance between casual players of varying skill.
No but serioulsy.... Fade is very balanced right now. They're not too easy to kill or too difficult to kill either. They are glass cannons. Get a group of 3 marines. 2 shotguns, a flamethrower and a pack of mines on the entrances/exits and you have yourself one dead fade. Nobody ever gets flamethrower or the right number of flamethrowers. Nobody knows how to work together.
Speaking now about fades in the competitive scene, they are a class with a high skill ceiling so naturally there are fades that can be extremely deadly. Even these said fades can be severely crippled with a flamethrower and a couple shotguns and optional jetpacks.
As for people who complain that the fade is too weak. I agree to some extent but not entirely. Fades shouldn't be engaging marine deathballs without support from at least another fade and a lerk and gorge. Fades are missing focus/sniping ability. Either one would be nice at this point versus level three armor and weapons or exos. Level three armor + weapons + jetpack + shotgun against a fade is terrifying.... for the fade. BUT by the time marines have weapons and armor 3, fades usually have to rely on teamwork just like any other alien class.
Moral of the story? Fades are pretty damn near balanced to perfection. Only very slightly OP. If you're dying to fades often then: Your a noob. or Your commander is a noob. or Your team is noob. or Your team has already been losing the game for awhile. or The fade is pro.
If you're a fade and dying often then: You are a noob. or Your team is noob. or Your Khammander is noob. or The marine is pro.
How to solve the noobness: Marines: Aim Better - predict fade movements whenever possible and don't panic or spray Stick Together with Fellow Marines - cycle yourself if you've been hit, so your teammate takes the next hit. Encourage the Commander to get necessary weapons and upgrades - weapons 1 first, then armor 1 Make Sure Your Team of Marines has the Correct Assortment of Weaponry - welders, 2-3 shotguns, 1-2 flamethrowers, 1-2 lmgs, mine packs. Coordinate Movements: When facing a fade, or any alien, it is often a good idea to spread out and stick to the walls. This prevents friendly-fire. While friendly fire doesn't do damage to allies, it does take away from the amount of damage that you could be doing to the aliens and reduces line of sight and reaction time. Teamwork - TEAMWORK, TEEEAMMMMWOOORRRKKK Cover the entrances, the exits, ask for scans and nano shields and cover your teammates. A single marine can rarely do anything truly significant. Think of yourself as a single component of a super organism (the team)
Fades: You Are Glass - Fades should swipe once or twice at most and blink/shadowstep out. Don't risk losng 50 res. Choose Upgrades Wisely - against regen and adren work wonders for fade. Cara is good too but regen allows you to return to the fight much quicker. Movement - Fades have shadowstep, blink and double jump and jumping into the air with shadowstep works almost like blink. USE ALL OF THESE MEANS OF MOVEMENT IN AND OUT OF COMBAT. Force Reloads - The best thing you can do before engaging a marine or marine deathball is to blink around and make passes without actually attacking. Count the bullets, listen for the reload and then swoop in for a swipe or two. Often with a well timed and properly executed reload-timing-attack, you can kill the marine without having to blink out. Late Game Fades Need Love - They need vortex, they need umbra, they need skulks and gorges and onos and poison bite and spikes and spores. Remember it takes 5 swipes to kill a standard marine with armor 3.
NOW stop whining about fades need conserved momentum taken away. or how they need to have less hp or how they have auto-aim (they don't have auto aim) or how they <b>[insert terrible idea]</b>
Oh, and for the record Sherwood, the only issue with Fades atm that I've seen is how they can attack super fast with enzyme (maybe base speed nerf is needed) and the fact that they only cost 30Tres to replace :|
Fade from a combat point of view is fine. As a marine just accept you shouldn't be fighting solo once fades are out (or even earlier tbh) and cover each other properly. A small squad of 2 or 3 marines with a shotgun or two, a few upgrades and an on-the-ball commander can quite happily cope with fades blinking on them as they will have to run away almost instantly (20 lmg bullets plus at least one shotgun HIT = a scared low hp fade).
Similarly a single marine wanting to 1v1 a fade will either need very good shotgun accuracy (2 out of 2, or 3 out of 3 if you aren't lucky), or a commander on the ball with nano and health packs. As it should be.
The problem with fades at the moment is not their ability to fight in combat but the way they appear in pub games. One minute there are no fades, so you and your 1+1 upgrades are dancing along happily. Next minute there are 4 and suddenly the entire marine team is in disarray. Once this happens it is seriously difficult to claw it back if the fades are good, simply because they all hit at once. This is imo a fault with the way the pres system works. There is no direct benefit from being effective early game, and no serious detrimental effect for just afking at hive for 5 minutes. There should be more incentive to be active early on. Maybe just something as simple as halving the pres tick and giving 0.1 pres for each 'score' point you get - but I'm sure this has been raised 9001 times before.
After some testing I found that the terrible hitreg is to blame. Theoreically, you can kill fades with 1 rifle mag and 3 Shotgun shots (LV0) or 2 with a higher lv. That doesn't work out in game.
@Ohnojojo My only argument would be that your idea of combat against Fades are fairly late-game tech or consists of holding rather than actually being able to move out. As of right now Fade swarms can be pushed out mid-game with Blink and completely force a Marine team back. Most of my complaints might be coming from the 20-24 player servers where aliens can have 6 Fades and still have backup lifeforms, though; forgot most of the balancing is around 14-16 players and doesn't scale in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1972564:date=Sep 6 2012, 05:23 AM:name=Ohnojojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ohnojojo @ Sep 6 2012, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
No but serioulsy.... Fade is very balanced right now. They're not too easy to kill or too difficult to kill either. They are glass cannons. Get a group of 3 marines. 2 shotguns, a flamethrower and a pack of mines on the entrances/exits and you have yourself one dead fade. Nobody ever gets flamethrower or the right number of flamethrowers. Nobody knows how to work together.
Speaking now about fades in the competitive scene, they are a class with a high skill ceiling so naturally there are fades that can be extremely deadly. Even these said fades can be severely crippled with a flamethrower and a couple shotguns and optional jetpacks.
As for people who complain that the fade is too weak. I agree to some extent but not entirely. Fades shouldn't be engaging marine deathballs without support from at least another fade and a lerk and gorge. Fades are missing focus/sniping ability. Either one would be nice at this point versus level three armor and weapons or exos. Level three armor + weapons + jetpack + shotgun against a fade is terrifying.... for the fade. BUT by the time marines have weapons and armor 3, fades usually have to rely on teamwork just like any other alien class.
Moral of the story? Fades are pretty damn near balanced to perfection. Only very slightly OP. If you're dying to fades often then: Your a noob. or Your commander is a noob. or Your team is noob. or Your team has already been losing the game for awhile. or The fade is pro.
If you're a fade and dying often then: You are a noob. or Your team is noob. or Your Khammander is noob. or The marine is pro.
How to solve the noobness: Marines: Aim Better - predict fade movements whenever possible and don't panic or spray Stick Together with Fellow Marines - cycle yourself if you've been hit, so your teammate takes the next hit. Encourage the Commander to get necessary weapons and upgrades - weapons 1 first, then armor 1 Make Sure Your Team of Marines has the Correct Assortment of Weaponry - welders, 2-3 shotguns, 1-2 flamethrowers, 1-2 lmgs, mine packs. Coordinate Movements: When facing a fade, or any alien, it is often a good idea to spread out and stick to the walls. This prevents friendly-fire. While friendly fire doesn't do damage to allies, it does take away from the amount of damage that you could be doing to the aliens and reduces line of sight and reaction time. Teamwork - TEAMWORK, TEEEAMMMMWOOORRRKKK Cover the entrances, the exits, ask for scans and nano shields and cover your teammates. A single marine can rarely do anything truly significant. Think of yourself as a single component of a super organism (the team)
Fades: You Are Glass - Fades should swipe once or twice at most and blink/shadowstep out. Don't risk losng 50 res. Choose Upgrades Wisely - against regen and adren work wonders for fade. Cara is good too but regen allows you to return to the fight much quicker. Movement - Fades have shadowstep, blink and double jump and jumping into the air with shadowstep works almost like blink. USE ALL OF THESE MEANS OF MOVEMENT IN AND OUT OF COMBAT. Force Reloads - The best thing you can do before engaging a marine or marine deathball is to blink around and make passes without actually attacking. Count the bullets, listen for the reload and then swoop in for a swipe or two. Often with a well timed and properly executed reload-timing-attack, you can kill the marine without having to blink out. Late Game Fades Need Love - They need vortex, they need umbra, they need skulks and gorges and onos and poison bite and spikes and spores. Remember it takes 5 swipes to kill a standard marine with armor 3.
NOW stop whining about fades need conserved momentum taken away. or how they need to have less hp or how they have auto-aim (they don't have auto aim) or how they <b>[insert terrible idea]</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1972998:date=Sep 6 2012, 03:04 PM:name=pvthoch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pvthoch @ Sep 6 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just add killstreaks and <b>weapon attachments</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They have; they removed the nade launcher from the rifle recently. So your jokes kind-of suffer when the developers had taken ideas like that :L
I just came out of a game where I dumped three entire canisters of the Flamethrower into a Fade, rarely missing, and not only did he survive, but he had enough energy to Blink over to me, murder my face off, and then Blink out again. This while using Blink all throughout our fight (I was using a JP, hence the long survival time).
<!--quoteo(post=1973023:date=Sep 6 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 6 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just came out of a game where I dumped three entire canisters of the Flamethrower into a Fade, rarely missing, and not only did he survive, but he had enough energy to Blink over to me, murder my face off, and then Blink out again. This while using Blink all throughout our fight (I was using a JP, hence the long survival time).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So?
All I'm getting from this is that you tried to solo a fade with a flamethrower, then got surprised when it didn't work. We don't tolerate skulks complaining about how they can't 1v1 Exosuits, why should I have to act surprised for this?
<!--quoteo(post=1973023:date=Sep 6 2012, 03:23 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Sep 6 2012, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just came out of a game where I dumped three entire canisters of the Flamethrower into a Fade, rarely missing, and not only did he survive, but he had enough energy to Blink over to me, murder my face off, and then Blink out again. This while using Blink all throughout our fight (I was using a JP, hence the long survival time).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The flamethrower isn't a 1vs1 weapon; you can hardly kill skulks with it. It's meant to take on groups of things and harm them slowly (which kind of voids itself out when aliens heal over it.)
<!--quoteo(post=1973026:date=Sep 6 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Banzai¥)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Banzai¥ @ Sep 6 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower isn't a 1vs1 weapon; you can hardly kill skulks with it. It's meant to take on groups of things and harm them slowly (which kind of voids itself out when aliens heal over it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was focusing more on the Blinking part. Even with the Flamethrower, Fades may as well have infinite energy with Adren. Which means that they may as well have infinite health, because you can't pin them down. Sentries don't bother them and they can Blink right over mines. They can also Blink through the air to fly and take down JPers. (Okay, the infinite health part is a bit of an exaggeration, but it's ridiculously hard to kill a Fade that doesn't screw up SEVERELY. Like 'getting itself stuck in front of seven Marines' severely.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1972782:date=Sep 6 2012, 07:34 AM:name=Tiomat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tiomat @ Sep 6 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1972782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is imo a fault with the way the pres system works. There is no direct benefit from being effective early game, and no serious detrimental effect for just afking at hive for 5 minutes. There should be more incentive to be active early on. Maybe just something as simple as halving the pres tick and giving 0.1 pres for each 'score' point you get - but I'm sure this has been raised 9001 times before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> YES! aha! Someone who sees the real issue at hand, imo. (the only thing i'd change with the fade itself, like i said, is the speed of swiping slightly but thats just to encourage roles)
The answer to the problem you mention above is simply lowering the starting pres. 20 starting pres is almost halfway to a fade. If the starting pres is lowered then "Mass lifeforms" are a much larger risk to save up for because you leave your team vulnerable for longer without those intermediate lifeforms to assist in the early game (hello, lerk and gorge) where every lifeform's contribution helps.
But that's not going to change until a) number of aliens in a spawn queue scale with playercount b) hydras are not dependent on pres (it doesnt have to be "free")
<!--quoteo(post=1973047:date=Sep 6 2012, 03:47 PM:name=pvthoch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pvthoch @ Sep 6 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just put a limit on max number of fades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ruined by the fact that the game doesn't scale properly to player-sizes as it is. (Plus I'd rather take Ironhorses idea over capping something.)
The entire problem with NS2 is that it's balance is based around ressource costs for a big part. This actually holds the game back massively for general enjoyment. It would be far better if you would tech something as the commander and it was permanently available for the team, but with limited supply. So you can only have 1-2 Exos/Onos based on how many people you have. Unlimited Shotgun&AR/Skulk&Gorge Players. Limited Grenade/Lerks and Flamethrower/Fades players.
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.
<!--quoteo(post=1973101:date=Sep 6 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Xaragoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xaragoth @ Sep 6 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire problem with NS2 is that it's balance is based around ressource costs for a big part. This actually holds the game back massively for general enjoyment. It would be far better if you would tech something as the commander and it was permanently available for the team, but with limited supply. So you can only have 1-2 Exos/Onos based on how many people you have. Unlimited Shotgun&AR/Skulk&Gorge Players. Limited Grenade/Lerks and Flamethrower/Fades players.
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be kind of hard to balance things like Onos and Grenade Launchers without resources restricting their use, I imagine...
I mean, you could just impose caps on them, but then people may not even be able to get the weapon they want because they're all taken- which is something you seem to be against (Not being able to use what you want)
a 50 resource lifeform that can die in 3-4 shells from a shotgun that costs 20res.
Fade swipes take 2-4 swipes to kill a marine (3 for armor level 1) that means if you have armor level 1 up, you can land about 2 shells on a fade before it kills you Taking away roughly half to 2/3rds of their entire life bar. So if you have two Or even three marines with shotguns in a group, You could easily kill a fade if you have good aim.
Personally I feel fades need either invincibility during blink but are easily visible, or Invisibility during blink while taking full damage
<!--quoteo(post=1973101:date=Sep 6 2012, 06:12 PM:name=Xaragoth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xaragoth @ Sep 6 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1973101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The entire problem with NS2 is that it's balance is based around ressource costs for a big part. This actually holds the game back massively for general enjoyment. It would be far better if you would tech something as the commander and it was permanently available for the team, but with limited supply. So you can only have 1-2 Exos/Onos based on how many people you have. Unlimited Shotgun&AR/Skulk&Gorge Players. Limited Grenade/Lerks and Flamethrower/Fades players.
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does this help the situation at all? Let's say you're a newer player and you want to play a fade. Oh wait, you're limited to 2 fades per team and the team wants the experienced players to fade so they can win. Congratulations on never playing fade because you're newer or less skilled than others. The pres system exist in order to allow players the freedom to play what they want.
There is no god! <a href="http://www.ebay.com/itm/My-Little-Pony-Special-Foil-Rainbow-Dash-Card-F37-from-Comic-Con-/221119148940?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337bba738c" target="_blank">http://www.ebay.com/itm/My-Little-Pony-Spe...=item337bba738c</a>
Is kinda a bit difficult to understand what people exactly want, Cause I keep browsing through threads and servers, where most of the biased goes towards the losing team.
One of the servers i came cross had some regular ish players that did fairly good with Fades, but still they had Marine players with Gold Aim, where having lots of health was almost the only way to survive, and Fades didn't do well at the end. One Factor I find with the fade is that players freak out with one fade around, many marines just shot randomly and like clustergroup or corner themselves cause the teleport...
Does that means telepot is bad and needs to be removed? Hell no! That skill of the fade makes it unique and is not something you can just shot until it dies, plan accordly and with support is much better.
We have to relinquish traditional ideas of what is overpowered or not. In TF2, for example, every class needs to be balanced against eachother because they are all equally available. In NS2, the different cost of lifeforms throws that out of the window.
While I think that there are some serious problems that need to be addressed for the fade, I think the tech explosions are the greater (and wider) issue here. If we want fades (and indeed, any other research) to be powerful, then we shouldn't really let 5 come out at once with such paltry drawbacks.
Consider NS1, where getting a fast fade meant assigning more players to builder-class roles and where fade explosions were patently all-in risky strategies which sacrificed vast amounts of early game control and resource flow. On the marine side, tech explosions could only occur if they were actively anticipated, saved for, and then organised through the commander - always at the expense of weapons/tech/field-support in the mean time.
Comments
One thing I've always wanted someone to do just for kicks is make a video between a marine and a fade, 2 rines vs 1 fade, 2v2, etc. Have them between strictly competitive players, and then a separate instance between casual players of varying skill.
No but serioulsy.... Fade is very balanced right now.
They're not too easy to kill or too difficult to kill either.
They are glass cannons. Get a group of 3 marines.
2 shotguns, a flamethrower and a pack of mines on the entrances/exits and you have yourself one dead fade.
Nobody ever gets flamethrower or the right number of flamethrowers.
Nobody knows how to work together.
Speaking now about fades in the competitive scene, they are a class with a high skill ceiling so naturally there are fades that can be extremely deadly. Even these said fades can be severely crippled with a flamethrower and a couple shotguns and optional jetpacks.
As for people who complain that the fade is too weak.
I agree to some extent but not entirely.
Fades shouldn't be engaging marine deathballs without support from at least another fade and a lerk and gorge.
Fades are missing focus/sniping ability. Either one would be nice at this point versus level three armor and weapons or exos. Level three armor + weapons + jetpack + shotgun against a fade is terrifying.... for the fade.
BUT by the time marines have weapons and armor 3, fades usually have to rely on teamwork just like any other alien class.
Moral of the story?
Fades are pretty damn near balanced to perfection.
Only very slightly OP.
If you're dying to fades often then:
Your a noob.
or
Your commander is a noob.
or
Your team is noob.
or
Your team has already been losing the game for awhile.
or
The fade is pro.
If you're a fade and dying often then:
You are a noob.
or
Your team is noob.
or
Your Khammander is noob.
or
The marine is pro.
How to solve the noobness:
Marines:
Aim Better - predict fade movements whenever possible and don't panic or spray
Stick Together with Fellow Marines - cycle yourself if you've been hit, so your teammate takes the next hit.
Encourage the Commander to get necessary weapons and upgrades - weapons 1 first, then armor 1
Make Sure Your Team of Marines has the Correct Assortment of Weaponry - welders, 2-3 shotguns, 1-2 flamethrowers, 1-2 lmgs, mine packs.
Coordinate Movements: When facing a fade, or any alien, it is often a good idea to spread out and stick to the walls. This prevents friendly-fire. While friendly fire doesn't do damage to allies, it does take away from the amount of damage that you could be doing to the aliens and reduces line of sight and reaction time.
Teamwork - TEAMWORK, TEEEAMMMMWOOORRRKKK Cover the entrances, the exits, ask for scans and nano shields and cover your teammates. A single marine can rarely do anything truly significant. Think of yourself as a single component of a super organism (the team)
Fades:
You Are Glass - Fades should swipe once or twice at most and blink/shadowstep out. Don't risk losng 50 res.
Choose Upgrades Wisely - against regen and adren work wonders for fade. Cara is good too but regen allows you to return to the fight much quicker.
Movement - Fades have shadowstep, blink and double jump and jumping into the air with shadowstep works almost like blink. USE ALL OF THESE MEANS OF MOVEMENT IN AND OUT OF COMBAT.
Force Reloads - The best thing you can do before engaging a marine or marine deathball is to blink around and make passes without actually attacking. Count the bullets, listen for the reload and then swoop in for a swipe or two. Often with a well timed and properly executed reload-timing-attack, you can kill the marine without having to blink out.
Late Game Fades Need Love - They need vortex, they need umbra, they need skulks and gorges and onos and poison bite and spikes and spores. Remember it takes 5 swipes to kill a standard marine with armor 3.
NOW stop whining about fades need conserved momentum taken away.
or how they need to have less hp
or how they have auto-aim (they don't have auto aim)
or how they <b>[insert terrible idea]</b>
Make is so Adren only kicks in 1 second after you have stopped using energy, so attacking/blinking/shadowstepping will disable the adrenalin bonus.
This would work the same for gorges, they will run out of energy but when they stop to recharge it will be alot quicker.
It happened.. :s
Oh, and for the record Sherwood, the only issue with Fades atm that I've seen is how they can attack super fast with enzyme (maybe base speed nerf is needed) and the fact that they only cost 30Tres to replace :|
Similarly a single marine wanting to 1v1 a fade will either need very good shotgun accuracy (2 out of 2, or 3 out of 3 if you aren't lucky), or a commander on the ball with nano and health packs. As it should be.
The problem with fades at the moment is not their ability to fight in combat but the way they appear in pub games. One minute there are no fades, so you and your 1+1 upgrades are dancing along happily. Next minute there are 4 and suddenly the entire marine team is in disarray. Once this happens it is seriously difficult to claw it back if the fades are good, simply because they all hit at once. This is imo a fault with the way the pres system works. There is no direct benefit from being effective early game, and no serious detrimental effect for just afking at hive for 5 minutes. There should be more incentive to be active early on. Maybe just something as simple as halving the pres tick and giving 0.1 pres for each 'score' point you get - but I'm sure this has been raised 9001 times before.
After some testing I found that the terrible hitreg is to blame. Theoreically, you can kill fades with 1 rifle mag and 3 Shotgun shots (LV0) or 2 with a higher lv. That doesn't work out in game.
a piggy looking thing pushing back a big @@ robot = op
aliens morphing to fade = op
marines playing at 30-20 fps = fades op
aliens = op
marines pugs = aliens op
game on beta no good commanders = aliens op
a piggy looking thing pushing back a big @@ robot = op
aliens morphing to fade = op
marines playing at 30-20 fps = fades op
aliens = op
marines pugs = aliens op
game on beta no good commanders = aliens op<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post is OP
My only argument would be that your idea of combat against Fades are fairly late-game tech or consists of holding rather than actually being able to move out. As of right now Fade swarms can be pushed out mid-game with Blink and completely force a Marine team back.
Most of my complaints might be coming from the 20-24 player servers where aliens can have 6 Fades and still have backup lifeforms, though; forgot most of the balancing is around 14-16 players and doesn't scale in any way.
No but serioulsy.... Fade is very balanced right now.
They're not too easy to kill or too difficult to kill either.
They are glass cannons. Get a group of 3 marines.
2 shotguns, a flamethrower and a pack of mines on the entrances/exits and you have yourself one dead fade.
Nobody ever gets flamethrower or the right number of flamethrowers.
Nobody knows how to work together.
Speaking now about fades in the competitive scene, they are a class with a high skill ceiling so naturally there are fades that can be extremely deadly. Even these said fades can be severely crippled with a flamethrower and a couple shotguns and optional jetpacks.
As for people who complain that the fade is too weak.
I agree to some extent but not entirely.
Fades shouldn't be engaging marine deathballs without support from at least another fade and a lerk and gorge.
Fades are missing focus/sniping ability. Either one would be nice at this point versus level three armor and weapons or exos. Level three armor + weapons + jetpack + shotgun against a fade is terrifying.... for the fade.
BUT by the time marines have weapons and armor 3, fades usually have to rely on teamwork just like any other alien class.
Moral of the story?
Fades are pretty damn near balanced to perfection.
Only very slightly OP.
If you're dying to fades often then:
Your a noob.
or
Your commander is a noob.
or
Your team is noob.
or
Your team has already been losing the game for awhile.
or
The fade is pro.
If you're a fade and dying often then:
You are a noob.
or
Your team is noob.
or
Your Khammander is noob.
or
The marine is pro.
How to solve the noobness:
Marines:
Aim Better - predict fade movements whenever possible and don't panic or spray
Stick Together with Fellow Marines - cycle yourself if you've been hit, so your teammate takes the next hit.
Encourage the Commander to get necessary weapons and upgrades - weapons 1 first, then armor 1
Make Sure Your Team of Marines has the Correct Assortment of Weaponry - welders, 2-3 shotguns, 1-2 flamethrowers, 1-2 lmgs, mine packs.
Coordinate Movements: When facing a fade, or any alien, it is often a good idea to spread out and stick to the walls. This prevents friendly-fire. While friendly fire doesn't do damage to allies, it does take away from the amount of damage that you could be doing to the aliens and reduces line of sight and reaction time.
Teamwork - TEAMWORK, TEEEAMMMMWOOORRRKKK Cover the entrances, the exits, ask for scans and nano shields and cover your teammates. A single marine can rarely do anything truly significant. Think of yourself as a single component of a super organism (the team)
Fades:
You Are Glass - Fades should swipe once or twice at most and blink/shadowstep out. Don't risk losng 50 res.
Choose Upgrades Wisely - against regen and adren work wonders for fade. Cara is good too but regen allows you to return to the fight much quicker.
Movement - Fades have shadowstep, blink and double jump and jumping into the air with shadowstep works almost like blink. USE ALL OF THESE MEANS OF MOVEMENT IN AND OUT OF COMBAT.
Force Reloads - The best thing you can do before engaging a marine or marine deathball is to blink around and make passes without actually attacking. Count the bullets, listen for the reload and then swoop in for a swipe or two. Often with a well timed and properly executed reload-timing-attack, you can kill the marine without having to blink out.
Late Game Fades Need Love - They need vortex, they need umbra, they need skulks and gorges and onos and poison bite and spikes and spores. Remember it takes 5 swipes to kill a standard marine with armor 3.
NOW stop whining about fades need conserved momentum taken away.
or how they need to have less hp
or how they have auto-aim (they don't have auto aim)
or how they <b>[insert terrible idea]</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 on every word.
They have; they removed the nade launcher from the rifle recently. So your jokes kind-of suffer when the developers had taken ideas like that :L
So?
All I'm getting from this is that you tried to solo a fade with a flamethrower, then got surprised when it didn't work. We don't tolerate skulks complaining about how they can't 1v1 Exosuits, why should I have to act surprised for this?
The flamethrower isn't a 1vs1 weapon; you can hardly kill skulks with it. It's meant to take on groups of things and harm them slowly (which kind of voids itself out when aliens heal over it.)
I was focusing more on the Blinking part. Even with the Flamethrower, Fades may as well have infinite energy with Adren. Which means that they may as well have infinite health, because you can't pin them down. Sentries don't bother them and they can Blink right over mines. They can also Blink through the air to fly and take down JPers. (Okay, the infinite health part is a bit of an exaggeration, but it's ridiculously hard to kill a Fade that doesn't screw up SEVERELY. Like 'getting itself stuck in front of seven Marines' severely.
At least an Onos can be hunted down.
YES!
aha!
Someone who sees the real issue at hand, imo. (the only thing i'd change with the fade itself, like i said, is the speed of swiping slightly but thats just to encourage roles)
The answer to the problem you mention above is simply lowering the starting pres. 20 starting pres is almost halfway to a fade.
If the starting pres is lowered then "Mass lifeforms" are a much larger risk to save up for because you leave your team vulnerable for longer without those intermediate lifeforms to assist in the early game (hello, lerk and gorge) where every lifeform's contribution helps.
But that's not going to change until a) number of aliens in a spawn queue scale with playercount b) hydras are not dependent on pres (it doesnt have to be "free")
Ruined by the fact that the game doesn't scale properly to player-sizes as it is.
(Plus I'd rather take Ironhorses idea over capping something.)
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be kind of hard to balance things like Onos and Grenade Launchers without resources restricting their use, I imagine...
I mean, you could just impose caps on them, but then people may not even be able to get the weapon they want because they're all taken- which is something you seem to be against (Not being able to use what you want)
a 50 resource lifeform that can die in 3-4 shells from a shotgun that costs 20res.
Fade swipes take 2-4 swipes to kill a marine (3 for armor level 1) that means if you have armor level 1 up, you can land about 2 shells on a fade before it kills you Taking away roughly half to 2/3rds of their entire life bar. So if you have two Or even three marines with shotguns in a group, You could easily kill a fade if you have good aim.
Personally I feel fades need either invincibility during blink but are easily visible, or Invisibility during blink while taking full damage
Getting rid of ressources for players and re-balancing around this would actually be a very good thing. Right now, you are ###### if a Fade kills you in 3-4 hits and you are out of ressources to buy another shotgun. It's unlikely you will get yours back at all. Not to mention a lot of people prefer specific weapons and it's just awful to be locked to a weapon you always try to avoid having in any game you play.
As for the commander mode, it would be more focused on building defensive/supportive structures than it is now. As a replacement for dropping weapons. It would probably help the Marines a lot if the commander could lock-down specific locations (limited around the area of each power-node and deactivated without power) and the Aliens could clearly profit from some kind of trap-system (like giant man-eating wall-tentacles).
Overall I wish we weren't this close to a release and UWE would take time to consider these options. Because right now I can't see NS2 being enjoyable outside of pro-games. It just lacks that "Jump in and play away" that is so important these days. It's enjoyable the first 30 hours or so, but after that it gets really annoying when you always have the same little issues that annoy the ###### out of you. And it's ALWAYS the small ones that make or break it. Because you will encounter them more often than the big bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does this help the situation at all? Let's say you're a newer player and you want to play a fade. Oh wait, you're limited to 2 fades per team and the team wants the experienced players to fade so they can win. Congratulations on never playing fade because you're newer or less skilled than others. The pres system exist in order to allow players the freedom to play what they want.
There is no god!
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One of the servers i came cross had some regular ish players that did fairly good with Fades, but still they had Marine players with Gold Aim, where having lots of health was almost the only way to survive, and Fades didn't do well at the end. One Factor I find with the fade is that players freak out with one fade around, many marines just shot randomly and like clustergroup or corner themselves cause the teleport...
Does that means telepot is bad and needs to be removed? Hell no! That skill of the fade makes it unique and is not something you can just shot until it dies, plan accordly and with support is much better.
fades are too weak imho
While I think that there are some serious problems that need to be addressed for the fade, I think the tech explosions are the greater (and wider) issue here. If we want fades (and indeed, any other research) to be powerful, then we shouldn't really let 5 come out at once with such paltry drawbacks.
Consider NS1, where getting a fast fade meant assigning more players to builder-class roles and where fade explosions were patently all-in risky strategies which sacrificed vast amounts of early game control and resource flow. On the marine side, tech explosions could only occur if they were actively anticipated, saved for, and then organised through the commander - always at the expense of weapons/tech/field-support in the mean time.