IMO marine weapons/armour upgrades should be removed rather than mirrored on the alien side. They don't add anything to the game or make it more interesting or rewarding. They just make marines get more powerful outright as the game goes on. They already get more powerful by unlocking new tech, why do they need a damage and armour buff as well? It would be better to just rebalance the damage levels so that the upgrades aren't needed (e.g. fades never 2 swipe kill etc) and then keep things consistent throughout a match.
UWE stated a goal of not making skulks obsolete but armour 3 pretty much does that on it's own without even taking into account all the other upgrades.
IMO if you decide that combat is fair and balanced at 3 bites, then that should be maintained throughout the game. These upgrades just make the game less intuitive because at different points it takes less/more hits to kill. I know they are trying to make it more transparent with different weapon sounds etc. but I don't think these upgrades add anything to the game that makes it worth the effort. They just cause frustration when your com didn't get a specific upgrade and now you are getting destroyed. It makes the game less about skill and more about what upgrades you have at specific times in the match.
<!--quoteo(post=1987173:date=Oct 5 2012, 03:33 AM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Oct 5 2012, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And by this I mean, aliens don't have any way to scale like marines.
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are right! The exact same thing i was thinking yesterday, marines get so much power over time, but aliens do not scale so much as marines. I hope they will change that, i have the feeling they nerf aliens more and more every patch.
maybe make marines spend 2 res per upgrade tree at the arms lab? so 4 res gets you level 3 Armour and Level 3 Weapons if they are researched by the comm. This gives another reason to double build arms labs apart form the sake of dual research.
These upgrades are what makes 1 com chair viable for marines, but 1 hive not viable for aliens.
You need at least level 2 weapons to counter cara however. This is the gamble aliens take not going crag hive first. If the marine comm rushes weapon upgrades, and they can aim, you will get mowed down.
I think marines need more of a personal res sink later in the game. With weapon reuse going on, and MACs negating welders until Exos.. marines typically save up and save up for a dual, then it's death march to hive
<!--quoteo(post=1987358:date=Oct 5 2012, 07:12 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 5 2012, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines with phase tech and faster spawn rates have a much easier time holding on to map control than aliens do. This occurs both in competitive games as well as in public ones. It doesn't help that at times you can have the entire alien team spawn on one hive while a single marine is wrecking havoc at the site of another hive. If you have a somewhat competent marine team playing at you, it's impossible as aliens to stop the constant attempts at 'ninjaing' upgrade chambers and harvesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well thats your opinion. but the fact that you cant hive move anymore isnt a "balance" issue. its a design issue and the feature was there in ns1. but bringing up the fact that ns1 had a feature that actually worked and was balanced brings up ill feelings.
This is especially apparent on maps like docking, which they've made even more marine friendly by providing 'backdoor' corridors.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This statement just proves how ignorant you are of the design of this game. Saying skulks don't need to scale because they are only there for the 'early game' isn't much different from saying that LMGs shouldn't scale to the lategame, since marines can just start using EXOs, shotguns, GLs and flamethrowers later on. What's further disturbing is that you are writing this in a way that only fuels my suspicion that you are the kind of person that can't be reasoned with anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this just shows how oblivious you are. just blindly throwing out "facts". and no lmgs shouldnt dominate late game, if they did then why are there shotguns, flamethrowers, gls? and scale means that skulks shouldnt be able to dominate late game when marines have heavy weapons out, the exact same way that lmgs dont dominate against fades and onos (unless its a coordinated attack, same as skulks). please, by all means say this is wrong. please respond by saying that yes lmgs SHOULD dominate late game play. please tell us all how skulks should by all means be used over higher lifeforms. please respond by saying that skulks should be able to beat fully upgraded, jp/exos. PLEASE say that skulks should be able to hold back a team of exo/jp marines coming for the hive. i wanna know if this is what you believe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks ARE supposed to be used the entire game, make no mistake about that. This a simple fact, as you will never have a team entirely consisting of higher lifeforms, and upon death you will be stuck playing a skulk for sometimes a significant period of time, in any stage of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> USED? YES
But are they supposed to be able to keep marines from winning without fade/gorge/onos/lerk? can marines win a game with 1 cc/lmg against multi hive onos/fade players? even skulks with leap and upgrades can defeat a team without jetpacks/exo. you disagree? please say you disagree! please respond by saying that skulks with leap and better upgrades cant beat a marine team on one CC.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(To claim that this isn't the case if you simply didn't die or were a better player would at the very least imply your opponents are bad, since even a good player will die at one point or another if he isn't facing complete tools) The second and third hive abilities given to the skulk aren't particularly helpful, since they are not accessible if your team is stuck or falls back to 1 hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> never claimed that was the case. ive been saying as ive always been saying, skulks in mid/late game shouldnt be your teams heavy hitters. and to complain otherwise is the players error.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(unlike marine A and W upgrades which are available on just 1 TP and allow the LMG to scale and remain highly competitive, also making the marine team as a whole much more resilient to setbacks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "highly" competitive is WAY overblowing it. marines sitting on 1 com chair will not win a majority of those games. ever play a game where no one goes com the first few minutes (sometimes even seconds). what happens in those games? the marines usually will lose that round thats what.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also making the marine team as a whole much more resilient to setbacks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> marines have so many holes in defense its sad. the glaring one is attacking power nodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's ridiculous that you automatically interpret a DPS boost as an offensive boost to the gorge. DPS boosts can't be useful on the defense, what now? Even if you boosted his DPS, you wouldn't see people use gorges offensively since he's too fragile of a unit for that. But right now the gorge is PISS POOR, even on defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats your opinion, not backed up by anything at all. gorge spit doesnt need a boost. why exactly would a gorge need stronger spit for. you said it yourself, here ill quote it for you "you wouldn't see people use gorges offensively since he's too fragile of a unit for that".
so what exactly does upping spit damage accomplish. whats so game breaking about the current gorge spit dmg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To not acknowledge this would only show that you probably never play the gorge in the first place. I guess you didn't get the memo that the gorge is supposedly a combat engineer class in NS2, but it goes without saying that currently he is NEITHER combat NOR engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> there's just nothing to say to that, its like a black hole of fail.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was surpsised that I only picked up your raging marine bias at this point, but I'm glad I did in the end anyway. 'Just like marines do'. Because marines can't come back from losing a second chair? What now? Marines are WAY WAY WAY more resilient to setbacks like this, for aliens a second hive loss is almost always a GG. (Certainly if jetpacks are in play) For marines, even with a second CC loss it is still very manageable to get back in the game. (Thanks to W and A 3, ARCs, GLs, Shotguns and Flamethrowers all being available at 1 CC)
You're either blind or wilfully ignorant if you are going to claim marines do not have a huge tech advantage over aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what raging marine bias. if anything i think marine still needs changes, just not the crippling "balance" changes some of you think they need. i want exos to be moved to 3 ccs along with 2 cc for arcs (more than that i dont even LIKE exos, i never play exo i never research exo and if i had my way id remove it from the game). heavy armor provided the armor boost without game breaking power that the exo provides. when one exo can solo an onos theres something wrong. yelling out opinions as loud as you can doesnt make your opinion correct. if i have any bias its that i play more commander/alien. there is no "huge tech advantage" , just bad players complaining about bad rambo tactics, as always.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What now? Marines are WAY WAY WAY more resilient to setbacks like this, for aliens a second hive loss is almost always a GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ignorant indeed. you cant have it both ways. losing hive 2 isnt always good game, no matter how much you would wish this were so. youre prolly one of those players that yells at the com all game and then f4s when the hive goes down instead of defending it because you were too busy eating a power node with no res tower on it somewhere else.
Simply put aliens were nerfed since the beginning because performance didnt allow marines to track and shoot well enough. Skulks are larger, slower, and less dangerous (No Focus) than in NS1 and in my opinion worse to play. It can safely be assumed most marines can aim with ease now.
When it comes to aliens as a whole i would like to see the alien comm be able to research Tier 1 abilities (Leap, Bile Bomb, Blink, Stomp, and Spores) with one upgrade purchased for more res and research slower or just make it a bi-product of a mature hive (making hives more expensive).
aliens were always about out manoeuvring marines, but because they have been OP for so long ppl are frozen in the old habit of fighting marines head on, so they want the skulk to be an equal match against everything. Skulks, at any stages of the game are meant to be at a disadvantage vs marines because they are the best at manoeuvring around the map and they have the ability to hit marines everytime they leave something exposed, either an undefended rt, tech point or main base. being a good skulk isnt only about winning engagement vs marines, its also about keeping the marines on their toes to the point where they can never really make a big move as a group by hitting the right place at the right time as often as possible
<!--quoteo(post=1987503:date=Oct 5 2012, 10:07 AM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Oct 5 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens were always about out manoeuvring marines, but because they have been OP for so long ppl are frozen in the old habit of fighting marines head on, so they want the skulk to be an equal match against everything. Skulks, at any stages of the game are meant to be at a disadvantage vs marines because they are the best at manoeuvring around the map and they have the ability to hit marines everytime they leave something exposed, either an undefended rt, tech point or main base. being a good skulk isnt only about winning engagement vs marines, its also about keeping the marines on their toes to the point where they can never really make a big move as a group by hitting the right place at the right time as often as possible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that there is more to being a good skulk than just winning head to head engagements, but it becomes frustrating when it feels like marines move faster and better than you do as a skulk, even with the ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
IMO the reason marines feel more powerful than marines is due to the reduced movement capabilities of the aliens. The skulk in particular feels very sluggish, or maybe i was able to negate its speed with wall jump a bit, but it still feels slow.
And the new fade blink just doesnt do what blink is supposed to do (move the fade quickly), even with shadowstep
Venem he obviously doesn't want skulks to be able to fully contend with exos/jp (even though they can be quite effective at killing exos) he wants skulk upgrades to feel like they scale more like the marine upgrades do. Right now the skill ceiling is higher for marines because of the hitscan weapons. It doesn't feel like quite an even match, especially at only one hive. He wants something to even that one hive gap.
Aliens actually have many more holes in their defenses than marines do. Marines have to be oblivious to let a power node get sniped whereas upgrade structures get sniped or even killed as collateral damage every single game. You dont see arms labs dying all the time do you? And even if an arms lab goes down its back up in seconds without having to reresearch upgrades. Wheres the balance there buddy?
Gorges actually could use a defense boost, but not in the form of a more damaging spit. They need a shotgun spit like the bullsquids from black mesa or the acid spitter ant lions from episode 2. This type of spit would be much easier to use and make marines think twice about getting too close to a gorge. It would also stop the ridiculous attempts at sniping with spit. It would of course need to have a longer cooldown between shots and would need to cost more energy to use. It also wouldn't do too much extra damage if all of the spit projectiles connected, it just needs to be easier to land hits with. The current spit is extremely difficult to use for I think an artificial reason.
One exo actually cant solo an onos, even at armor three they go down in 6 hits., at armor 1, 4 hits. I do agree with you however on tying more tech to 2 CCs, though tying arcs to 2 CCs wouldnt do squat. GLs, phase gates and A3/W3 need to be tied to 2 CCs and dual minigun exos need to be tied to 3 CCs.
Losing hive 2 is gg 95% of the time for aliens, whereas losing CC 2 for the marines is almost never gg right away. Thats because they can use almost everything with only 1 CC. You kinda contradicted yourself here a little bit buddy, what with what you said about marines needing to rely as much on their second CC as aliens do on their second hive and all.
<!--quoteo(post=1987503:date=Oct 5 2012, 01:07 PM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Oct 5 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens were always about out manoeuvring marines, but because they have been OP for so long ppl are frozen in the old habit of fighting marines head on, so they want the skulk to be an equal match against everything. Skulks, at any stages of the game are meant to be at a disadvantage vs marines because they are the best at manoeuvring around the map and they have the ability to hit marines everytime they leave something exposed, either an undefended rt, tech point or main base. being a good skulk isnt only about winning engagement vs marines, its also about keeping the marines on their toes to the point where they can never really make a big move as a group by hitting the right place at the right time as often as possible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One skulk is supposed to be able to beat one marine the majority of the time, as long as the skulk isnt running in a straight line. Since NS1 the aliens have always been kindof the lone wolves and the marines the team players.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
A lot of this is completely backwards, it is not endgame where aliens suffer (unless they are being dominated tech wise). The problem is early game where due to the impact of skill, marines completely dominate skulks. This leads to games where even if aliens are winning, it feels like losing, then once 2nd hive and onos/lifeforms are up aliens can finish the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1987752:date=Oct 6 2012, 04:54 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Oct 6 2012, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of this is completely backwards, it is not endgame where aliens suffer (unless they are being dominated tech wise). The problem is early game where due to the impact of skill, marines completely dominate skulks. This leads to games where even if aliens are winning, it feels like losing, then once 2nd hive and onos/lifeforms are up aliens can finish the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, a lot of games that aliens win you feel you are losing (or barely breaking even) at up to the 10 min mark.
Venem...you spawn a vanilla skulk (ie right out of egg) and compare him to a vanilla marine (right off IP)..compare these at these points; 1 - 10 second into game 3-4 min into game 5-10 min into game 10+min into game.
Now over this time the so called "vanilla" marine gets stronger...the skulk does not. I dont care how a skulk competes against an exo...just how it competes against a normal so called "vanilla" marine. Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing? Marines get 3 attack and 3 defence upgrades (they also get JP's and exo's )...aliens get nothing, heck even exo's get more armour.
Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker...this is why everyone moans about "Skulk rushing"or"fast first hive" etc...the longer the game goes the greater the disparity between the starting lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1987400:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:40 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Oct 5 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably been said already in a thread full of so many words but can't emphasize this enough
Because there is no skill-based movement system for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->^ This.
Enough with the bitegorge. Give us our skulks back!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1987173:date=Oct 4 2012, 06:33 PM:name=FrontlinerDelta)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrontlinerDelta @ Oct 4 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And by this I mean, aliens don't have any way to scale like marines.
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you raged at me earlier this night. You just got outplayed.. it was 1v1. I had a rifle. Your movement is really poor. Even with the nerfed movement on skulks atm, yours is really lacking in comparison to those I could name from competitive teams.
Calling BS on me and then rage quiting the server is not the solution. You just need to improve your movement and usage of terrain. Right now I wager that skulk movement has a low skill ceiling and even the best are limited, but you were nowhere near difficult to track.
<!--quoteo(post=1987786:date=Oct 6 2012, 11:44 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Oct 6 2012, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you raged at me earlier this night. You just got outplayed.. it was 1v1. I had a rifle. Your movement is really poor. Even with the nerfed movement on skulks atm, yours is really lacking in comparison to those I could name from competitive teams.
Calling BS on me and then rage quiting the server is not the solution. You just need to improve your movement and usage of terrain. Right now I wager that skulk movement has a low skill ceiling and even the best are limited, but you were nowhere near difficult to track.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1987792:date=Oct 6 2012, 02:59 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 6 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was very relevant to the thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because the dude is raging about a frag. I was there. There's no point in this thread.
At least I play the builds and try to be up to date on information before making dumb comments like, "221 Onos is okay guys" like you.
<!--quoteo(post=1987793:date=Oct 6 2012, 12:02 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Oct 6 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, because the dude is raging about a frag. I was there. There's no point in this thread.
At least I play the builds and try to be up to date on information before making dumb comments like, "221 Onos is okay guys" like you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people worth convincing don't listen to ad hominem bro. Try arguing the point rather than the person making it.
I've seen a lot of good input in this thread and most people seem to have identified the same problem, which of course is alien scaling. So I guess I'll throw in my opinions regarding it.
First of all, we can agree that a skulk vs marine engagement is an asymetrical one, and a skulk charging at a marine from 50 meters down a hallway should absolutely lose that battle. The skulk's advantage comes from maneuverability and stealth. Maneuverability is okay, with the speed advantage, and mainly wall/ceiling walking and ability to easily traverse vents, and wall-jumping is silly at best. There is virtually no stealth aspect however. At least when I play as a skulk, the footsteps are loud, and obvious, and maybe it's just me but the skulk footstep sounds seem to be seriously glitched right now, and often sound like a marine tapdancing (marine footstep sounds in very rapid succession). The skulk walking sound needs to be very discreet, and only noticed by marines who are listening closely for it. Hmm...the NS1 sound comes to mind. Lastly, this may be too drastic but I feel like camoflauge or a weaker form of it should somehow be an inherent skulk ability (such as partial invis when holding shift). <hr />
Next is the upgrades. Fanatic made some good points in his "think tank" thread about this issue. I agree that upgrades lose their meaning if they all come with a drawback. Where is the drawback to marines having 1/1 upgrades, or 3/3? They don't shoot or move slower, they are simply upgrades with no tradeoff, and there is no reason the aliens should make a functional tradeoff for their "upgrades."
I think that the three most intuitive categories for alien upgrades would be Defense/Attack/Movement. However, with Veils and such it's actually Defense/Stealth/Movement. I guess you can say that the different lifeforms offer damage upgrades, and that is true (more or less), but that is also the reason that skulks become obsolete in the late game. Nobody is saying that skulks should still be equally matched to fully upgraded marines, but the current skulks stand zero chance of accomplishing anything in combat by that time.
The problem is, there are multiple upgrades for each hive type, and you can't have all of them be equally viable all the time. You have your carapaces, or upgrades that are always viable, and you have your feign deaths, which (and I don't think feign death itself is good) is a more specialized upgrade that allows you to use a different playstyle or accomplish different goals. Also, it's interesting to point out that in NS1, it was pertinent to the marines to know if the aliens upgraded Sensory first, because focus was dangerous, especially in the early game. Currently in NS2, i doesn't seem to matter and it has little effect on marine strategy or wariness.
My suggestion, since there is no Offensive type Hive, is to have the third upgrade for each hive type be related to attacks.
Crag Hive: Add a life steal on hit upgrade. Pretty self-explanatory
Shade Hive: Bring back Focus. Also, feign death kinda sucks, bring back redemption as well. Have it take you to the nearest Shade or Hive.
Shift Hive: If it's too much to have a simple attack speed increase, make it increased attack speed for a very short duration after a successful attack. Just enough to maintain the increased attack speed if you are hitting consecutively. My first thought was to make this only work on marine structures. That would make it one of those specialized ugrades.
Other options for upgrades could involve something that affects each lifeform differently based on how they play or what their abilities are..
<hr />
My final point is terrain advantage. This is something that has been pointed out earlier in this thread by Mr. Greedy. There is no risk for marines entering parts of the map covered with infestation. It should be there to heavily discourage ramboing marines, and require teamwork and a more organized push to retake infested areas.
There should be a significant change of ambiance in infested areas. Footstep sounds should be even more masked for aliens since it is their own turf, while marine footstep sounds should be amplified with a mucky, sticky boots sound. The ambient sounds of humming lights and generators should be replaced by more organic sounds that one might imagine the infestation would make. Also I agree that there should be a greenish mist over all of the infestation, not to severely hamper visibility. Mostly just for the effect, but it may also provide some cover for skulks/gorges/lerks as mentioned. I don't think there should be any effect on movement speed on infestation. That might be a little much. Possibly as an upgrade, but only a very slight decrease for marines.
<hr />
Other thoughts:
- When/if web is introduced, I think it would make an interesting Lerk ability. Lerks need some combat support abilities, because that's what the Lerk is. It needs abilities that either buff allies around it or hamper marines making them easy targets. A web used the way spores is currently used would be interesting.
- Vortex is weird. I don't think I've ever seen it used, but based on the description it seems like a weird, out of place umbra clone. Fades need something that makes more sense for Fades.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1987305:date=Oct 5 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 5 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge spit's lagginess and invisibility to the gorge himself makes it all pointless to try and frag with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorge spit > ALL.
<!--quoteo(post=1987752:date=Oct 6 2012, 06:54 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Oct 6 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This leads to games where even if aliens are winning, it feels like losing, then once 2nd hive and onos/lifeforms are up aliens can finish the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I totally agree. I joined a game a while ago where as aliens we lost our second hive and the marines were clearly dominating in frags. Our com kept convincing people not to quit and we managed to drop a second and then third hive and eventually go on to win the game. But at the end of the match I couldn't help but feel like I would have rather been playing marines. I'd just spent the majority of the last 20 minutes dying over and over just to do little bits of damage here and there and even though we won the game, it was just so boring and unrewarding. It's no fun to die often even if you do win the game.
As for stealth, dont make me laugh. All stealth will do (if youre lucky enough to succeed, a difficult task with ns2's huge models and tiny, bright rooms) you will still only get 1 or 2 bites in and the fight will still come down to being largely decided by a jump spamming cluster######.
<!--quoteo(post=1987794:date=Oct 6 2012, 06:15 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 6 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The people worth convincing don't listen to ad hominem bro. Try arguing the point rather than the person making it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The funny part about people saying things like this is that you always know which of the two categories theyre going to put themselves in.
<!--quoteo(post=1987925:date=Oct 6 2012, 08:55 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Oct 6 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The funny part about people saying things like this is that you always know which of the two categories theyre going to put themselves in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a playtester or a dev, so I'm not worth convincing.
I wish the forum mods could/would ban people from specific threads that they decide to hijack with petty and irrelevant arguments. This one is already circling the drain at this point though. Thanks guys.
<!--quoteo(post=1987527:date=Oct 5 2012, 10:51 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 5 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->upgrade structures get sniped or even killed as collateral damage every single game. You dont see arms labs dying all the time do you? And even if an arms lab goes down its back up in seconds without having to reresearch upgrades. Wheres the balance there buddy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something that needs to be addressed as well. At the very least, if carapace is researched, and the shell is destroyed, then upon rebuilding the shell, carapace should be available as a free/instant upgrade. Having to invest 30+ res surrounding your upgrades with whips, or resorting to cheesy tactics like burying them under clogs shouldn't be necessary.
I would also like to see hive rooms redesigned with some nice corners or nooks to hide upgrades in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is something that needs to be addressed as well. At the very least, if carapace is researched, and the shell is destroyed, then upon rebuilding the shell, carapace should be available as a free/instant upgrade. Having to invest 30+ res surrounding your upgrades with whips, or resorting to cheesy tactics like burying them under clogs shouldn't be necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so true
And yea, maps don't have nearly enough hiding spots for upgrade chambers. Not to mention having to hide them, having to put whips around them or having to clog them up is a pretty lame band-aid for the problem.
Oh man mojo I love your ideas for infestation... I hope those effects go in, particularly the mist.
But the 'turf' advantages/disadvantages you mention are also worthy of note. This game needs to be based around something, why not territory? Home turf advantages. Another (rather artificial I admit) idea I had come up with before to break stalemates (but also in affect could cure this entire debate about unequal scaling) is to scale damage numbers and health with the amount of territory owned.
Aliens are trying to infest wherever they happen to be and marines are trying to cure that infestation. We all know this. So it would make sense that marines grow stronger with weapon/armor upgrades and aliens grow stronger with how well they've infested the map they're currently on. Say for each MATURE(!!) harvester the aliens own they get a buff the equivalent of maybe 1/3 of an armor and weapons buff that the marines would get (9 mature harvesters = A3/W3 for the aliens).
This puts a bigger emphasis on resource towers for even the newest players AND solves the issue of no scaling for the aliens. This would maybe even give aliens a build order besides the fast second hive that seems pretty necessary this patch. Upgrade tower + 3/4 harvesters actually viable over fast leap? That would be nice.
The danger with territory advantages is that you make attacking even more difficult than it already is (since you're charging right into where your enemies <i>spawn</i>, so no travel distance for them...), so it causes more stalemates and overly cautious, slow play.
I would have to disagree. Yeah I get what you mean and what people are saying but scaling with new hives shouldnt be added at all. It works fine with upgrade system now but I think their should be an option to choose what upgrades befor you spawn and/or to be able to choose you life form.
Comments
UWE stated a goal of not making skulks obsolete but armour 3 pretty much does that on it's own without even taking into account all the other upgrades.
IMO if you decide that combat is fair and balanced at 3 bites, then that should be maintained throughout the game. These upgrades just make the game less intuitive because at different points it takes less/more hits to kill. I know they are trying to make it more transparent with different weapon sounds etc. but I don't think these upgrades add anything to the game that makes it worth the effort. They just cause frustration when your com didn't get a specific upgrade and now you are getting destroyed. It makes the game less about skill and more about what upgrades you have at specific times in the match.
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right!
The exact same thing i was thinking yesterday, marines get so much power over time, but aliens do not scale so much as marines.
I hope they will change that, i have the feeling they nerf aliens more and more every patch.
These upgrades are what makes 1 com chair viable for marines, but 1 hive not viable for aliens.
You need at least level 2 weapons to counter cara however. This is the gamble aliens take not going crag hive first. If the marine comm rushes weapon upgrades, and they can aim, you will get mowed down.
I think marines need more of a personal res sink later in the game. With weapon reuse going on, and MACs negating welders until Exos.. marines typically save up and save up for a dual, then it's death march to hive
well thats your opinion. but the fact that you cant hive move anymore isnt a "balance" issue. its a design issue and the feature was there in ns1. but bringing up the fact that ns1 had a feature that actually worked and was balanced brings up ill feelings.
This is especially apparent on maps like docking, which they've made even more marine friendly by providing 'backdoor' corridors.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This statement just proves how ignorant you are of the design of this game. Saying skulks don't need to scale because they are only there for the 'early game' isn't much different from saying that LMGs shouldn't scale to the lategame, since marines can just start using EXOs, shotguns, GLs and flamethrowers later on. What's further disturbing is that you are writing this in a way that only fuels my suspicion that you are the kind of person that can't be reasoned with anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this just shows how oblivious you are. just blindly throwing out "facts". and no lmgs shouldnt dominate late game, if they did then why are there shotguns, flamethrowers, gls? and scale means that skulks shouldnt be able to dominate late game when marines have heavy weapons out, the exact same way that lmgs dont dominate against fades and onos (unless its a coordinated attack, same as skulks). please, by all means say this is wrong. please respond by saying that yes lmgs SHOULD dominate late game play. please tell us all how skulks should by all means be used over higher lifeforms. please respond by saying that skulks should be able to beat fully upgraded, jp/exos. PLEASE say that skulks should be able to hold back a team of exo/jp marines coming for the hive. i wanna know if this is what you believe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks ARE supposed to be used the entire game, make no mistake about that. This a simple fact, as you will never have a team entirely consisting of higher lifeforms, and upon death you will be stuck playing a skulk for sometimes a significant period of time, in any stage of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
USED? YES
But are they supposed to be able to keep marines from winning without fade/gorge/onos/lerk? can marines win a game with 1 cc/lmg against multi hive onos/fade players? even skulks with leap and upgrades can defeat a team without jetpacks/exo. you disagree? please say you disagree! please respond by saying that skulks with leap and better upgrades cant beat a marine team on one CC.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(To claim that this isn't the case if you simply didn't die or were a better player would at the very least imply your opponents are bad, since even a good player will die at one point or another if he isn't facing complete tools) The second and third hive abilities given to the skulk aren't particularly helpful, since they are not accessible if your team is stuck or falls back to 1 hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
never claimed that was the case. ive been saying as ive always been saying, skulks in mid/late game shouldnt be your teams heavy hitters. and to complain otherwise is the players error.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(unlike marine A and W upgrades which are available on just 1 TP and allow the LMG to scale and remain highly competitive, also making the marine team as a whole much more resilient to setbacks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"highly" competitive is WAY overblowing it. marines sitting on 1 com chair will not win a majority of those games. ever play a game where no one goes com the first few minutes (sometimes even seconds). what happens in those games? the marines usually will lose that round thats what.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also making the marine team as a whole much more resilient to setbacks)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines have so many holes in defense its sad. the glaring one is attacking power nodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's ridiculous that you automatically interpret a DPS boost as an offensive boost to the gorge. DPS boosts can't be useful on the defense, what now? Even if you boosted his DPS, you wouldn't see people use gorges offensively since he's too fragile of a unit for that. But right now the gorge is PISS POOR, even on defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats your opinion, not backed up by anything at all. gorge spit doesnt need a boost. why exactly would a gorge need stronger spit for. you said it yourself, here ill quote it for you "you wouldn't see people use gorges offensively since he's too fragile of a unit for that".
so what exactly does upping spit damage accomplish. whats so game breaking about the current gorge spit dmg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To not acknowledge this would only show that you probably never play the gorge in the first place. I guess you didn't get the memo that the gorge is supposedly a combat engineer class in NS2, but it goes without saying that currently he is NEITHER combat NOR engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's just nothing to say to that, its like a black hole of fail.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was surpsised that I only picked up your raging marine bias at this point, but I'm glad I did in the end anyway. 'Just like marines do'. Because marines can't come back from losing a second chair? What now? Marines are WAY WAY WAY more resilient to setbacks like this, for aliens a second hive loss is almost always a GG. (Certainly if jetpacks are in play) For marines, even with a second CC loss it is still very manageable to get back in the game. (Thanks to W and A 3, ARCs, GLs, Shotguns and Flamethrowers all being available at 1 CC)
You're either blind or wilfully ignorant if you are going to claim marines do not have a huge tech advantage over aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what raging marine bias. if anything i think marine still needs changes, just not the crippling "balance" changes some of you think they need. i want exos to be moved to 3 ccs along with 2 cc for arcs (more than that i dont even LIKE exos, i never play exo i never research exo and if i had my way id remove it from the game). heavy armor provided the armor boost without game breaking power that the exo provides. when one exo can solo an onos theres something wrong. yelling out opinions as loud as you can doesnt make your opinion correct. if i have any bias its that i play more commander/alien. there is no "huge tech advantage" , just bad players complaining about bad rambo tactics, as always.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What now? Marines are WAY WAY WAY more resilient to setbacks like this, for aliens a second hive loss is almost always a GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ignorant indeed. you cant have it both ways. losing hive 2 isnt always good game, no matter how much you would wish this were so. youre prolly one of those players that yells at the com all game and then f4s when the hive goes down instead of defending it because you were too busy eating a power node with no res tower on it somewhere else.
Leap is terrible now
web
focus
acid rocket
adrenaline is terrible
devour
xenocide is worthless
babblers
Healing spray is nerfed
When it comes to aliens as a whole i would like to see the alien comm be able to research Tier 1 abilities (Leap, Bile Bomb, Blink, Stomp, and Spores) with one upgrade purchased for more res and research slower or just make it a bi-product of a mature hive (making hives more expensive).
I agree that there is more to being a good skulk than just winning head to head engagements, but it becomes frustrating when it feels like marines move faster and better than you do as a skulk, even with the ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
IMO the reason marines feel more powerful than marines is due to the reduced movement capabilities of the aliens. The skulk in particular feels very sluggish, or maybe i was able to negate its speed with wall jump a bit, but it still feels slow.
And the new fade blink just doesnt do what blink is supposed to do (move the fade quickly), even with shadowstep
Aliens actually have many more holes in their defenses than marines do. Marines have to be oblivious to let a power node get sniped whereas upgrade structures get sniped or even killed as collateral damage every single game. You dont see arms labs dying all the time do you? And even if an arms lab goes down its back up in seconds without having to reresearch upgrades. Wheres the balance there buddy?
Gorges actually could use a defense boost, but not in the form of a more damaging spit. They need a shotgun spit like the bullsquids from black mesa or the acid spitter ant lions from episode 2. This type of spit would be much easier to use and make marines think twice about getting too close to a gorge. It would also stop the ridiculous attempts at sniping with spit. It would of course need to have a longer cooldown between shots and would need to cost more energy to use. It also wouldn't do too much extra damage if all of the spit projectiles connected, it just needs to be easier to land hits with. The current spit is extremely difficult to use for I think an artificial reason.
One exo actually cant solo an onos, even at armor three they go down in 6 hits., at armor 1, 4 hits. I do agree with you however on tying more tech to 2 CCs, though tying arcs to 2 CCs wouldnt do squat. GLs, phase gates and A3/W3 need to be tied to 2 CCs and dual minigun exos need to be tied to 3 CCs.
Losing hive 2 is gg 95% of the time for aliens, whereas losing CC 2 for the marines is almost never gg right away. Thats because they can use almost everything with only 1 CC. You kinda contradicted yourself here a little bit buddy, what with what you said about marines needing to rely as much on their second CC as aliens do on their second hive and all.
One skulk is supposed to be able to beat one marine the majority of the time, as long as the skulk isnt running in a straight line. Since NS1 the aliens have always been kindof the lone wolves and the marines the team players.
Skulks def need something in the end game, poor ######s just die from GL's.
I think skulks should be made smaller and see how that goes for now. NS1 size.
Yes, a lot of games that aliens win you feel you are losing (or barely breaking even) at up to the 10 min mark.
Venem...you spawn a vanilla skulk (ie right out of egg) and compare him to a vanilla marine (right off IP)..compare these at these points;
1 - 10 second into game
3-4 min into game
5-10 min into game
10+min into game.
Now over this time the so called "vanilla" marine gets stronger...the skulk does not.
I dont care how a skulk competes against an exo...just how it competes against a normal so called "vanilla" marine.
Either a marine should take 5 bites from teh start or he should take 3...why make him get harder to kill yet the aliens get no similar buffing?
Marines get 3 attack and 3 defence upgrades (they also get JP's and exo's )...aliens get nothing, heck even exo's get more armour.
Aliens need to be able to scale...you cant have one side just keep getting weaker...this is why everyone moans about "Skulk rushing"or"fast first hive" etc...the longer the game goes the greater the disparity between the starting lifeforms.
Because there is no skill-based movement system for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->^ This.
Enough with the bitegorge. Give us our skulks back!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A free marine (ie just spawned) is much more dangerous and deadly than the skulk. Just as a player it feels like skulks become useless while a marine never is.
I mean what is the point of carapace if one shotgun blast insta-kills anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you raged at me earlier this night. You just got outplayed.. it was 1v1. I had a rifle. Your movement is really poor. Even with the nerfed movement on skulks atm, yours is really lacking in comparison to those I could name from competitive teams.
Calling BS on me and then rage quiting the server is not the solution. You just need to improve your movement and usage of terrain. Right now I wager that skulk movement has a low skill ceiling and even the best are limited, but you were nowhere near difficult to track.
Calling BS on me and then rage quiting the server is not the solution. You just need to improve your movement and usage of terrain. Right now I wager that skulk movement has a low skill ceiling and even the best are limited, but you were nowhere near difficult to track.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was very relevant to the thread.
Yeah, because the dude is raging about a frag. I was there. There's no point in this thread.
At least I play the builds and try to be up to date on information before making dumb comments like, "221 Onos is okay guys" like you.
At least I play the builds and try to be up to date on information before making dumb comments like, "221 Onos is okay guys" like you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The people worth convincing don't listen to ad hominem bro. Try arguing the point rather than the person making it.
First of all, we can agree that a skulk vs marine engagement is an asymetrical one, and a skulk charging at a marine from 50 meters down a hallway should absolutely lose that battle. The skulk's advantage comes from maneuverability and stealth. Maneuverability is okay, with the speed advantage, and mainly wall/ceiling walking and ability to easily traverse vents, and wall-jumping is silly at best. There is virtually no stealth aspect however. At least when I play as a skulk, the footsteps are loud, and obvious, and maybe it's just me but the skulk footstep sounds seem to be seriously glitched right now, and often sound like a marine tapdancing (marine footstep sounds in very rapid succession). The skulk walking sound needs to be very discreet, and only noticed by marines who are listening closely for it. Hmm...the NS1 sound comes to mind. Lastly, this may be too drastic but I feel like camoflauge or a weaker form of it should somehow be an inherent skulk ability (such as partial invis when holding shift).
<hr />
Next is the upgrades. Fanatic made some good points in his "think tank" thread about this issue. I agree that upgrades lose their meaning if they all come with a drawback. Where is the drawback to marines having 1/1 upgrades, or 3/3? They don't shoot or move slower, they are simply upgrades with no tradeoff, and there is no reason the aliens should make a functional tradeoff for their "upgrades."
I think that the three most intuitive categories for alien upgrades would be Defense/Attack/Movement. However, with Veils and such it's actually Defense/Stealth/Movement. I guess you can say that the different lifeforms offer damage upgrades, and that is true (more or less), but that is also the reason that skulks become obsolete in the late game. Nobody is saying that skulks should still be equally matched to fully upgraded marines, but the current skulks stand zero chance of accomplishing anything in combat by that time.
The problem is, there are multiple upgrades for each hive type, and you can't have all of them be equally viable all the time. You have your carapaces, or upgrades that are always viable, and you have your feign deaths, which (and I don't think feign death itself is good) is a more specialized upgrade that allows you to use a different playstyle or accomplish different goals. Also, it's interesting to point out that in NS1, it was pertinent to the marines to know if the aliens upgraded Sensory first, because focus was dangerous, especially in the early game. Currently in NS2, i doesn't seem to matter and it has little effect on marine strategy or wariness.
My suggestion, since there is no Offensive type Hive, is to have the third upgrade for each hive type be related to attacks.
Crag Hive: Add a life steal on hit upgrade. Pretty self-explanatory
Shade Hive: Bring back Focus. Also, feign death kinda sucks, bring back redemption as well. Have it take you to the nearest Shade or Hive.
Shift Hive: If it's too much to have a simple attack speed increase, make it increased attack speed for a very short duration after a successful attack. Just enough to maintain the increased attack speed if you are hitting consecutively. My first thought was to make this only work on marine structures. That would make it one of those specialized ugrades.
Other options for upgrades could involve something that affects each lifeform differently based on how they play or what their abilities are..
<hr />
My final point is terrain advantage. This is something that has been pointed out earlier in this thread by Mr. Greedy. There is no risk for marines entering parts of the map covered with infestation. It should be there to heavily discourage ramboing marines, and require teamwork and a more organized push to retake infested areas.
There should be a significant change of ambiance in infested areas. Footstep sounds should be even more masked for aliens since it is their own turf, while marine footstep sounds should be amplified with a mucky, sticky boots sound. The ambient sounds of humming lights and generators should be replaced by more organic sounds that one might imagine the infestation would make. Also I agree that there should be a greenish mist over all of the infestation, not to severely hamper visibility. Mostly just for the effect, but it may also provide some cover for skulks/gorges/lerks as mentioned. I don't think there should be any effect on movement speed on infestation. That might be a little much. Possibly as an upgrade, but only a very slight decrease for marines.
<hr />
Other thoughts:
- When/if web is introduced, I think it would make an interesting Lerk ability. Lerks need some combat support abilities, because that's what the Lerk is. It needs abilities that either buff allies around it or hamper marines making them easy targets. A web used the way spores is currently used would be interesting.
- Vortex is weird. I don't think I've ever seen it used, but based on the description it seems like a weird, out of place umbra clone. Fades need something that makes more sense for Fades.
Gorge spit > ALL.
Yeah, I totally agree. I joined a game a while ago where as aliens we lost our second hive and the marines were clearly dominating in frags. Our com kept convincing people not to quit and we managed to drop a second and then third hive and eventually go on to win the game. But at the end of the match I couldn't help but feel like I would have rather been playing marines. I'd just spent the majority of the last 20 minutes dying over and over just to do little bits of damage here and there and even though we won the game, it was just so boring and unrewarding. It's no fun to die often even if you do win the game.
As for stealth, dont make me laugh. All stealth will do (if youre lucky enough to succeed, a difficult task with ns2's huge models and tiny, bright rooms) you will still only get 1 or 2 bites in and the fight will still come down to being largely decided by a jump spamming cluster######.
<!--quoteo(post=1987794:date=Oct 6 2012, 06:15 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 6 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The people worth convincing don't listen to ad hominem bro. Try arguing the point rather than the person making it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The funny part about people saying things like this is that you always know which of the two categories theyre going to put themselves in.
I'm not a playtester or a dev, so I'm not worth convincing.
This is something that needs to be addressed as well. At the very least, if carapace is researched, and the shell is destroyed, then upon rebuilding the shell, carapace should be available as a free/instant upgrade. Having to invest 30+ res surrounding your upgrades with whips, or resorting to cheesy tactics like burying them under clogs shouldn't be necessary.
I would also like to see hive rooms redesigned with some nice corners or nooks to hide upgrades in.
This is so true
And yea, maps don't have nearly enough hiding spots for upgrade chambers. Not to mention having to hide them, having to put whips around them or having to clog them up is a pretty lame band-aid for the problem.
But the 'turf' advantages/disadvantages you mention are also worthy of note. This game needs to be based around something, why not territory? Home turf advantages. Another (rather artificial I admit) idea I had come up with before to break stalemates (but also in affect could cure this entire debate about unequal scaling) is to scale damage numbers and health with the amount of territory owned.
Aliens are trying to infest wherever they happen to be and marines are trying to cure that infestation. We all know this. So it would make sense that marines grow stronger with weapon/armor upgrades and aliens grow stronger with how well they've infested the map they're currently on. Say for each MATURE(!!) harvester the aliens own they get a buff the equivalent of maybe 1/3 of an armor and weapons buff that the marines would get (9 mature harvesters = A3/W3 for the aliens).
This puts a bigger emphasis on resource towers for even the newest players AND solves the issue of no scaling for the aliens. This would maybe even give aliens a build order besides the fast second hive that seems pretty necessary this patch. Upgrade tower + 3/4 harvesters actually viable over fast leap? That would be nice.