<!--quoteo(post=1988728:date=Oct 9 2012, 10:21 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didnt avoid anything but ill spell it out for you. range - marine, cqb - skulk. if youre one of those sttupid skulks that are complaining that you should own both cqb and range fighting then im not even going to respond to that.
why do you keep insisting that skulk be the most powerful attacker the alien team has. like you quote above, focus would fix that but you shouldnt be depending on skulks late game to deal heavy damage to attackers. and youre basing all of this on your opinion that both teams should play EXACTLY the same, which they dont, wont and never will. why do skulks only have to hit 3 times to kill a player whereas most marine players have to waste a whole clip?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think rather than try to cast assertions on what type of player I am stick to the facts.
All focus will do is balance 1 level of scaling (marines base lifeform gets 3) to the 1 level of carapace...but again you seem to not realise but aliens dont spawn with their upgrades...these are supposed "strategic" decisions for the aliens.
Lerks, fade and onos are not meant to keep pace with W1-3 or A1-3, they are more comparable to JP's, Exo's, GL and flamers (even then marine weapons cost less and can be shared (with exception of JP's and exo)).
You claim to understand the difference between teh two but question > 1 clip v 3+ bites?....you understand that closing distances to be able to lay bites is why you need less right?
skulk early game-> lerk/fade midgame -> onos late game.
your whole point is incorrect as aliens dont stay one lifeform the entire game. "DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game."
i doubt you even understand your own sentence. as your whole argument is that alien players dont get stronger throughout the game. and if believe that then wow.
but thats what you dont get and im done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marine spawns at 10 min mark...straight off the bat has W3 A3. <-- VANILLA MARINE Skulk spawn at 10 min mark...has nothing (no carapce...certainly no focus which does not exist in NS2) <-- VANILLA SKULK
These are what are known as DEFAULT/BASE life forms, in so far as you get these for FREE when you spawn, not once you have evolved to a lerk...or gone and purchased an EXO. But the base lifeform that most people will spend a large amount of time playing (trying to take down the 1-3 exo's/fades/onos). Marines dont stay vanilla either (they get SG, JP's, EXO etc) that is why we talk base/default life forms.
Did you ever play NS1? Do you know that aliens actually scaled in NS1? Do you realise that I am not the only person who is calling for some scaling on aliens? You do realise that with some sort of scaling you could mitigate the early onos rush by making the onos very weak but scale massively. So it would actually allow for a lot more smoother balancing thrugh out the game.
I don't think that comparing a marine with 3-3 to a skulk without his upgrades is fair as the skulk upgrades are free and take almost no time afterall.
I think that skulk scaling with cara leap and celerity is OK. It would be nice if we could get a more combat oriented upgrade out of shade thus allowing for further scaling of the skulk. I think the community is right in that the best solution would be focus + some sort of skill based movement. Currently it feels pretty tough to fight a 3-3 marine as skulk.
It is also difficult to fight a skilled 0-0 marine as a vanilla skulk unless you get the jump on them. However, this is how it has always been and I think how it is supposed to be. This makes the balancing of skill based movement for skulk challenging.
I feel that part of the problem is that marines are often allowed to hold resource nodes too easily. Thus they are able to scale up to 3-3 very quickly, perhaps before there are a significant number of higher lifeforms on the field. I think that there is significant opportunity for skulks to sneak through vents or whatever and take out resource nodes and that in many cases these opportunities are not being taken advantage of. When I am playing I am sometimes frustrated by how much time I spend doing this as I feel (know) it is extremely important to a team victory yet its not the most fun job (nor is it a good use of your teams stronger skulks time, but weaker skulks don't do it).
<!--quoteo(post=1988757:date=Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine spawns at 10 min mark...straight off the bat has W3 A3. <-- VANILLA MARINE Skulk spawn at 10 min mark...has nothing (no carapce...certainly no focus which does not exist in NS2) <-- VANILLA SKULK<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're assuming that the alien player is not going to pick from free upgrades? At the 10 minute mark skulk should have access to 2 upgrades and leap. Why would you not factor this in? The game is designed so that the "vanilla" skulk at the 10 minute mark is slightly more powerful than at the start of the game. You shouldn't discredit free upgrades just because of a few key clicks.
You insist that he cannot include upgrades and then state -
<!--quoteo(post=1988757:date=Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you ever play NS1? Do you know that aliens actually scaled in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they scaled from their UPGRADES. So don't force him to ignore upgrades for his point and use them in yours.
If wall-walking is significantly improved (hopefully next patch?) and aliens are able to secure a second hive by the 10 minute mark - a skulk should scale *at least a little bit* against a vanilla marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1988781:date=Oct 9 2012, 10:35 AM:name=tk-421)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tk-421 @ Oct 9 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're assuming that the alien player is not going to pick from free upgrades? At the 10 minute mark skulk should have access to 2 upgrades and leap. Why would you not factor this in? The game is designed so that the "vanilla" skulk at the 10 minute mark is slightly more powerful than at the start of the game. You shouldn't discredit free upgrades just because of a few key clicks.
You insist that he cannot include upgrades and then state -<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> During a base push, there is often no time for a skulk to grab upgrades like cara or celerity. Meanwhile, marines spawn with all their upgrades built in; they don't have to go through a menu and take a few seconds to gain a3/w3. If skulks could choose their upgrades while dead, and spawn with them, it would be more equitable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, they scaled from their UPGRADES. So don't force him to ignore upgrades for his point and use them in yours.
If wall-walking is significantly improved (hopefully next patch?) and aliens are able to secure a second hive by the 10 minute mark - a skulk should scale *at least a little bit* against a vanilla marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They also had hidden, passive scaling with hive count. It increased the effectiveness of their armor.
<!--quoteo(post=1988792:date=Oct 9 2012, 07:01 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 9 2012, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->During a base push, there is often no time for a skulk to grab upgrades like cara or celerity. Meanwhile, marines spawn with all their upgrades built in; they don't have to go through a menu and take a few seconds to gain a3/w3. If skulks could choose their upgrades while dead, and spawn with them, it would be more equitable.
They also had hidden, passive scaling with hive count. It increased the effectiveness of their armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both good points sir. I wasn't taking into account either of those.
<!--quoteo(post=1988738:date=Oct 9 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 9 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapons and armor 3 is a non ideal situation. Its the kind of situation you shouldn't find yourself in, not without substantial ability to fight back. Its like complaining that one hive aliens can't fend off a train of exos walking into their hive. Its a none ideal situation, you aren't meant to be able to fight back. You are being punished for mistakes made earlier in the round.
Unfortunately, with the current resource system, and the current cost of upgrades, level 3 weapons and armor is more the norm than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and this is where we should be starting off with. maybe they should look at removing sprint? adding back in range spores? aliens need a boost early midgame, and the lerk is supposed to fill that in UNTIL fades come into play but they dont and its the big glaring flaw imo. ive been saying it since they made the change and ill keep saying it. lerks need range spores to harass marines, weaken marines for skulks, and keep commanders on their toes so that marine teams arent just sitting on res and upgrading for pushes. range spores keep lerks relevant the entire game sans exo pushes (and by then hopefully you have umbra to continue to be a factor).
<!--quoteo(post=1988792:date=Oct 9 2012, 04:01 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 9 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They also had hidden, passive scaling with hive count. It increased the effectiveness of their armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only at hive 3 I believe, saw someone mention that here in the forums recently
I dunno how much contribution has been added to this thread so far but I disagree. A very good alien, fade, can be a deadly threat to marines. Even a single fade can change the whole outcome of a game, 6v6 or 12v12 it doesn't matter.
Having played a few rounds of competitive lately, I've noticed that the aliens lose 95% of the time in equally skilled teams in 221 <b>unless</b> they do the 2-hive tres onos. It's the only viable strategy (aside from baserush, which isn't rewarding either).
I'm sure the upcoming cups/tournaments will show pretty clearly that aliens are at a big disadvantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1988795:date=Oct 9 2012, 11:09 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and this is where we should be starting off with. maybe they should look at removing sprint? adding back in range spores? aliens need a boost early midgame, and the lerk is supposed to fill that in UNTIL fades come into play but they dont and its the big glaring flaw imo. ive been saying it since they made the change and ill keep saying it. lerks need range spores to harass marines, weaken marines for skulks, and keep commanders on their toes so that marine teams arent just sitting on res and upgrading for pushes. range spores keep lerks relevant the entire game sans exo pushes (and by then hopefully you have umbra to continue to be a factor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Orrr perhaps a spike attack that is worth a damn? A poison spike. That stacks with the poison bite.
Based on build 221: For its current effectiveness, I'd price the lerk at 25 res, so maybe it costs just a bit extra. It seems to be usable in a support role and even though it doesn't give that high a K/D ratio, it makes the skulks' work easier by lowering the number of bites needed. I do not think lerks are all that necessary right now, but then again, the fade has been nerfed into oblivion and not everyone can get the 7 minute onos from the khammander, so lerks seem to be the next best thing... Sure, it is not that much better than upgraded skulks, but it seems to have its uses.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1989094:date=Oct 10 2012, 04:50 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Oct 10 2012, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having played a few rounds of competitive lately, I've noticed that the aliens lose 95% of the time in equally skilled teams in 221 <b>unless</b> they do the 2-hive tres onos. It's the only viable strategy (aside from baserush, which isn't rewarding either).
I'm sure the upcoming cups/tournaments will show pretty clearly that aliens are at a big disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's been like this ever since they nerfed the Fade in b219(?), although fades are only part of the problem. We're not even talking about even teams anymore -- teams who previously only rarely won rounds against us (arc), have recently become almost impossible to beat as aliens, as they've figured out how to exploit certain mechanics. Unfortunately, the problem hasn't been apparent from tournament results because of other problems with gameplay. If one looks at the results from the BBC, for example, one might even think balance is biased in favor of the aliens.
What those results don't tell you, however, is that almost all the alien rounds were won either by early game baserushes or 7:30 Onos. The upcoming Guru tournament is going to be a sad affair, for both players and spectators, unless there are some big surprise changes to balance in b222.
The problem is that certain fundamental gameplay mechanics are broken. Properly fixing this requires that the developers understand what the issues are and why they're happening. This is not something they will get from staring at statistics from public games.
Having watched the live Q&A yesterday, it is clear that UWE don't understand what the problem is. When I hear things like Flayra saying they're tweaking turrets to provide a counter to baserushes, it really saddens me, because it's completely missing the point.
Now, UWE know a hell of a lot more about designing games than me, and they're are smart guys, so obviously the problem isn't that they lack the capacity to understand. The problem is rather that they don't have experience with gameplay in competitive matches, and the way competitive min/maxing of gameplay mechanics work in practice.
To any devs reading this post: I'd be happy to talk to you about what the problems are and why they're happening. Send me a PM.
<!--quoteo(post=1989160:date=Oct 10 2012, 09:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 10 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To any devs reading this post: I'd be happy to talk to you about what the problems are and why they're happening. Send me a PM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really should send them an Email instead because I am afraid that they don't read forum posts thoroughly. In almost every casted match from BBC you can see the current problems with the alien gameplay but UWE is still not able to see those issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1989167:date=Oct 10 2012, 03:33 AM:name=Eißfeldt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eißfeldt @ Oct 10 2012, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You really should send them an Email instead because I am afraid that they don't read forum posts thoroughly. In almost every casted match from BBC you can see the current problems with the alien gameplay but UWE is still not able to see those issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think sending a e-mail is not enough, it would be best if they could take some time and speak directly with some of the players. Many of these broken core mechanics were spotted months ago and the game has being build around them, this is causing many issues we are seeing today. A 1 hour friendly chat with few selected players from the community would go a long way.
But if they are willing to reach out with e-mails or Pm's it would also be great.
<!--quoteo(post=1989232:date=Oct 10 2012, 02:41 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Oct 10 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A focus group with the competitive players is a great idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know this has been suggested to the devs more than once and ignored?
I really dont get why you wouldent want to take advantage of this as a developer. Especially when you try to make an e-sport.
In my opinion, the focus on "competitive play" is becoming a massive hindrance to the success of this game. The more time you spend trying to make the game attractive to high skill players, the more you are inclined to introduce mechanics which appeal specifically to them. The more you do this, the less average skill mechanics you introduce. The fewer mechanics which appeal to the vast majority of players, the less appealing your game is, and the less balanced it is in most situations.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1989239:date=Oct 10 2012, 02:54 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion, the focus on "competitive play" is becoming a massive hindrance to the success of this game. The more time you spend trying to make the game attractive to high skill players, the more you are inclined to introduce mechanics which appeal specifically to them. The more you do this, the less average skill mechanics you introduce. The fewer mechanics which appeal to the vast majority of players, the less appealing your game is, and the less balanced it is in most situations.
Forget about competitive play, focus on play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you give an example of an existing mechanic in NS2 that is attractive to high skill players but not to average skill players?
<!--quoteo(post=1989239:date=Oct 10 2012, 04:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion, the focus on "competitive play" is becoming a massive hindrance to the success of this game. The more time you spend trying to make the game attractive to high skill players, the more you are inclined to introduce mechanics which appeal specifically to them. The more you do this, the less average skill mechanics you introduce. The fewer mechanics which appeal to the vast majority of players, the less appealing your game is, and the less balanced it is in most situations.
Forget about competitive play, focus on play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much what the trend has been. When was the last time you saw a change geared for "competitive players"? You really should play the game and read more of the changes..
The point of a focus group with competitive players is to learn from the players who play the game the most, who study it, and play strategically.
Sometimes I get the impression UW thinks the competitive players are playing an entirely different game. Example, they said drifter rushing is not a problem because it doesn't happen much. Fact is the competitive players often discover tactics like drifter rush, and these then filter down into average skilled matches. Two games I played that same day in pub servers both had alien commanders using drifters to mess up marine movement. Not in a skilled way, but in a being teleported and pushed about by dodgy coding sort of a way.
<!--quoteo(post=1989246:date=Oct 10 2012, 03:15 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Oct 10 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you give an example of an existing mechanic in NS2 that is attractive to high skill players but not to average skill players?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos. 5 Exos walking from marine spawn to enemy alien hive, in a competitive game, is GG. Marines are just suicidal because they don't want to play anymore. Do the same in a pub game, and it is essentially unstoppable. You want to rally 5 other players who you don't know and have limited communication with, and organise them so they can get around the heavy train without colliding head on with it, all the while timing this perfectly so as to hit the marine base at a point when they cannot turn around, and they cannot do enough damage by going forward? Never going to happen.
Fades. So you're telling me that my team can be single handedly saved by one player who I give a quick rushed fade to, or my team can be doomed to failure because the person that got the fade died instantly? Great.
Jetpacks. So absolutely no structures can take this jetpacker down in an insured length of time, meaning that I either leap and knock him out of the air, or he fires off 2 grenade volleys and levels everything if important in the room? Great.
The alien team itself. They rely almost entirely on using their speed as a means to avoid the enemy and attack undefended locations. That's fine, NS1 was the same. However, the speed advantage aliens have over marines has been cut in half, meaning the the gap between evasion and annihilation is tiny. Its essentially the flick of a switch, which is why there was the marine alien balance discrepancy between pub and competitive play in the past. Pub players weren't precise enough to out maneuver marines, therefore they lost. Competitive players could do it consistently and reliably, therefore marines lost almost all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1989160:date=Oct 10 2012, 03:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 10 2012, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been like this ever since they nerfed the Fade in b219(?), although fades are only part of the problem. We're not even talking about even teams anymore -- teams who previously only rarely won rounds against us (arc), have recently become almost impossible to beat as aliens, as they've figured out how to exploit certain mechanics. Unfortunately, the problem hasn't been apparent from tournament results because of other problems with gameplay. If one looks at the results from the BBC, for example, one might even think balance is biased in favor of the aliens.
What those results don't tell you, however, is that almost all the alien rounds were won either by early game baserushes or 7:30 Onos. The upcoming Guru tournament is going to be a sad affair, for both players and spectators, unless there are some big surprise changes to balance in b222.
The problem is that certain fundamental gameplay mechanics are broken. Properly fixing this requires that the developers understand what the issues are and why they're happening. This is not something they will get from staring at statistics from public games.
Having watched the live Q&A yesterday, it is clear that UWE don't understand what the problem is. When I hear things like Flayra saying they're tweaking turrets to provide a counter to baserushes, it really saddens me, because it's completely missing the point.
Now, UWE know a hell of a lot more about designing games than me, and they're are smart guys, so obviously the problem isn't that they lack the capacity to understand. The problem is rather that they don't have experience with gameplay in competitive matches, and the way competitive min/maxing of gameplay mechanics work in practice.
To any devs reading this post: I'd be happy to talk to you about what the problems are and why they're happening. Send me a PM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly right. Some teams tried to make a rule for the guru tournament that you could only drop a tres onos with 3 hives or buy your own with pres. Unfortunately it was not agreed to.
Maybe people that don't understand or own the game will enjoy all the onos play, but in reality they will be cookie cutter crap games.
<!--quoteo(post=1989268:date=Oct 10 2012, 05:11 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 10 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are any of those things more attractive to high level players?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because their balance mechanisms only function correctly in high level games.
<!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos. 5 Exos walking from marine spawn to enemy alien hive, in a competitive game, is GG. Marines are just suicidal because they don't want to play anymore. Do the same in a pub game, and it is essentially unstoppable. You want to rally 5 other players who you don't know and have limited communication with, and organise them so they can get around the heavy train without colliding head on with it, all the while timing this perfectly so as to hit the marine base at a point when they cannot turn around, and they cannot do enough damage by going forward? Never going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current exos suits are not made with competitive play in mind. I really don't like how they play out in gameplay point of view. I think they have negative impact on both competitive and public play. For competitive exos are near impossible to kill because of their damage output when they are positioned correctly. They are basically mobile turrets that can stand in a corner and defend a location forever. The biggest counter to them are gorges because they blind them which allows skulks to take them down. But you only get a chance to do that when they are attacking. I guess the current onos can also stand up to them but aliens usually have less res to use than marines during a game. I also agree that its very bad on the public side because the skill required to use these suites is close to zero. This means that games usually end right away on public when they appear. It's always dangerous to mix such a powerful ability/equipment with ease of use. iThe biggest positive they get is the cool factor, but that does not help with gameplay. <!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades. So you're telling me that my team can be single handedly saved by one player who I give a quick rushed fade to, or my team can be doomed to failure because the person that got the fade died instantly? Great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get the logic behind this one or how it connects to competitive play. <!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks. So absolutely no structures can take this jetpacker down in an insured length of time, meaning that I either leap and knock him out of the air, or he fires off 2 grenade volleys and levels everything if important in the room? Great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think most competitive players agree that jetpacks are to cheap (10 pres). The problem isn't that its hard to take them down the first time, the problem is that they can constantly re-buy them. <!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien team itself. They rely almost entirely on using their speed as a means to avoid the enemy and attack undefended locations. That's fine, NS1 was the same. However, the speed advantage aliens have over marines has been cut in half, meaning the the gap between evasion and annihilation is tiny. Its essentially the flick of a switch, which is why there was the marine alien balance discrepancy between pub and competitive play in the past. Pub players weren't precise enough to out maneuver marines, therefore they lost. Competitive players could do it consistently and reliably, therefore marines lost almost all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The big problem with limiting alien maneuverability is it gives little freedom to the player to get better. This allows skulks to reach their full potential individually pretty quick which allows them to dominate marines that don't have their aim up yet. However when players get their up to 80%+ accuracy the skulks effectiveness goes down very quickly and you really don't have any ways to deal with that marine. When hitreg/performance get better and players get more chance to play their full potential their aim will be much better than today. If aliens don't have any way to improve their ability to close the distance they will simply be doomed from the start.
I'm pretty sure though that most competitive players would like to see some improvements made on movement for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1989271:date=Oct 10 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because their balance mechanisms only function correctly in high level games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is why the main focus should be on making solid mechanics that work before even thinking of balance. I feel like there is way to much focus on balance in discussions today. If the mechanics of the game would try to keep the skill ceiling close to equal for both teams then there would be less issue with balance changes made. This is very hard to do however and it requires a lot of feedback from both new players and veterans. In the end its the game mechanics that keep players interested. Most of the issues that I see on the forums today have little to do with balance and have more to do how the fundamentals of the game work. It simply makes it very hard to please both communities.
There are lots of competitve players that have tried or would give good feedback regarding balance and gameplay mechanics. While things have not always gone smoothly between UWE and some of those players, that really is not a good reason to completely ignore that kind of feedback. In the end its not really their fault, more these forums.. most feedback on these forums gets lost in a sea of terrible posts and trolls, completely negating all the hard work some players put into it. Thats why trying to filter it through here will never work well. That coupled with immature and completely irresponsible players who are supposed to be the go-to players for feedback makes two methods of feedback completely worthless.
Why dont we simple try the idea with the 'focus group' again? I am not sure if Charlie is reachable via Email but maybe someone can create clarification about that. I would suggest to write a serious letter composed by experienced players (fanatic, gorgeous, rantalogy, locklear etc. , maybe even the team captain from every clan). It is important that we make clear that the whole competetive community stands behind this idea so we could digitally 'sign' it by the clans/teams and players. Maybe someone can ask few of those experienced players to assemble in voice chat and begin the work. I think it is worth a try.
Its not nearly that simple. Getting players together to bounce ideas or suggestions is one thing, but getting a group of players that can look at things in a more general sense, and come up with good ideas yet still be willing to compromise with others and get people to agree on it... is much harder. Its more that you need certain kinds of people than clan leaders.
Comments
why do you keep insisting that skulk be the most powerful attacker the alien team has. like you quote above, focus would fix that but you shouldnt be depending on skulks late game to deal heavy damage to attackers. and youre basing all of this on your opinion that both teams should play EXACTLY the same, which they dont, wont and never will. why do skulks only have to hit 3 times to kill a player whereas most marine players have to waste a whole clip?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think rather than try to cast assertions on what type of player I am stick to the facts.
All focus will do is balance 1 level of scaling (marines base lifeform gets 3) to the 1 level of carapace...but again you seem to not realise but aliens dont spawn with their upgrades...these are supposed "strategic" decisions for the aliens.
Lerks, fade and onos are not meant to keep pace with W1-3 or A1-3, they are more comparable to JP's, Exo's, GL and flamers (even then marine weapons cost less and can be shared (with exception of JP's and exo)).
You claim to understand the difference between teh two but question > 1 clip v 3+ bites?....you understand that closing distances to be able to lay bites is why you need less right?
<!--quoteo(post=1988728:date=Oct 9 2012, 10:21 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 9 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->howso?
skulk early game-> lerk/fade midgame -> onos late game.
your whole point is incorrect as aliens dont stay one lifeform the entire game.
"DEFAULT lifeforms AS THEY INITIALLY SPAWN changes through the course of a game."
i doubt you even understand your own sentence. as your whole argument is that alien players dont get stronger throughout the game. and if believe that then wow.
but thats what you dont get and im done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine spawns at 10 min mark...straight off the bat has W3 A3. <-- VANILLA MARINE
Skulk spawn at 10 min mark...has nothing (no carapce...certainly no focus which does not exist in NS2) <-- VANILLA SKULK
These are what are known as DEFAULT/BASE life forms, in so far as you get these for FREE when you spawn, not once you have evolved to a lerk...or gone and purchased an EXO.
But the base lifeform that most people will spend a large amount of time playing (trying to take down the 1-3 exo's/fades/onos).
Marines dont stay vanilla either (they get SG, JP's, EXO etc) that is why we talk base/default life forms.
Did you ever play NS1? Do you know that aliens actually scaled in NS1?
Do you realise that I am not the only person who is calling for some scaling on aliens?
You do realise that with some sort of scaling you could mitigate the early onos rush by making the onos very weak but scale massively.
So it would actually allow for a lot more smoother balancing thrugh out the game.
I think that skulk scaling with cara leap and celerity is OK. It would be nice if we could get a more combat oriented upgrade out of shade thus allowing for further scaling of the skulk. I think the community is right in that the best solution would be focus + some sort of skill based movement. Currently it feels pretty tough to fight a 3-3 marine as skulk.
It is also difficult to fight a skilled 0-0 marine as a vanilla skulk unless you get the jump on them. However, this is how it has always been and I think how it is supposed to be. This makes the balancing of skill based movement for skulk challenging.
I feel that part of the problem is that marines are often allowed to hold resource nodes too easily. Thus they are able to scale up to 3-3 very quickly, perhaps before there are a significant number of higher lifeforms on the field. I think that there is significant opportunity for skulks to sneak through vents or whatever and take out resource nodes and that in many cases these opportunities are not being taken advantage of. When I am playing I am sometimes frustrated by how much time I spend doing this as I feel (know) it is extremely important to a team victory yet its not the most fun job (nor is it a good use of your teams stronger skulks time, but weaker skulks don't do it).
Skulk spawn at 10 min mark...has nothing (no carapce...certainly no focus which does not exist in NS2) <-- VANILLA SKULK<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're assuming that the alien player is not going to pick from free upgrades? At the 10 minute mark skulk should have access to 2 upgrades and leap. Why would you not factor this in? The game is designed so that the "vanilla" skulk at the 10 minute mark is slightly more powerful than at the start of the game. You shouldn't discredit free upgrades just because of a few key clicks.
You insist that he cannot include upgrades and then state -
<!--quoteo(post=1988757:date=Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Oct 9 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1988757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you ever play NS1? Do you know that aliens actually scaled in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they scaled from their UPGRADES. So don't force him to ignore upgrades for his point and use them in yours.
If wall-walking is significantly improved (hopefully next patch?) and aliens are able to secure a second hive by the 10 minute mark - a skulk should scale *at least a little bit* against a vanilla marine.
You insist that he cannot include upgrades and then state -<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
During a base push, there is often no time for a skulk to grab upgrades like cara or celerity. Meanwhile, marines spawn with all their upgrades built in; they don't have to go through a menu and take a few seconds to gain a3/w3. If skulks could choose their upgrades while dead, and spawn with them, it would be more equitable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, they scaled from their UPGRADES. So don't force him to ignore upgrades for his point and use them in yours.
If wall-walking is significantly improved (hopefully next patch?) and aliens are able to secure a second hive by the 10 minute mark - a skulk should scale *at least a little bit* against a vanilla marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They also had hidden, passive scaling with hive count. It increased the effectiveness of their armor.
They also had hidden, passive scaling with hive count. It increased the effectiveness of their armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both good points sir. I wasn't taking into account either of those.
Unfortunately, with the current resource system, and the current cost of upgrades, level 3 weapons and armor is more the norm than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and this is where we should be starting off with. maybe they should look at removing sprint? adding back in range spores? aliens need a boost early midgame, and the lerk is supposed to fill that in UNTIL fades come into play but they dont and its the big glaring flaw imo. ive been saying it since they made the change and ill keep saying it. lerks need range spores to harass marines, weaken marines for skulks, and keep commanders on their toes so that marine teams arent just sitting on res and upgrading for pushes. range spores keep lerks relevant the entire game sans exo pushes (and by then hopefully you have umbra to continue to be a factor).
Only at hive 3 I believe, saw someone mention that here in the forums recently
I'm sure the upcoming cups/tournaments will show pretty clearly that aliens are at a big disadvantage.
Orrr perhaps a spike attack that is worth a damn? A poison spike. That stacks with the poison bite.
I'm sure the upcoming cups/tournaments will show pretty clearly that aliens are at a big disadvantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's been like this ever since they nerfed the Fade in b219(?), although fades are only part of the problem. We're not even talking about even teams anymore -- teams who previously only rarely won rounds against us (arc), have recently become almost impossible to beat as aliens, as they've figured out how to exploit certain mechanics. Unfortunately, the problem hasn't been apparent from tournament results because of other problems with gameplay. If one looks at the results from the BBC, for example, one might even think balance is biased in favor of the aliens.
What those results don't tell you, however, is that almost all the alien rounds were won either by early game baserushes or 7:30 Onos. The upcoming Guru tournament is going to be a sad affair, for both players and spectators, unless there are some big surprise changes to balance in b222.
The problem is that certain fundamental gameplay mechanics are broken. Properly fixing this requires that the developers understand what the issues are and why they're happening. This is not something they will get from staring at statistics from public games.
Having watched the live Q&A yesterday, it is clear that UWE don't understand what the problem is. When I hear things like Flayra saying they're tweaking turrets to provide a counter to baserushes, it really saddens me, because it's completely missing the point.
Now, UWE know a hell of a lot more about designing games than me, and they're are smart guys, so obviously the problem isn't that they lack the capacity to understand. The problem is rather that they don't have experience with gameplay in competitive matches, and the way competitive min/maxing of gameplay mechanics work in practice.
To any devs reading this post: I'd be happy to talk to you about what the problems are and why they're happening. Send me a PM.
You really should send them an Email instead because I am afraid that they don't read forum posts thoroughly. In almost every casted match from BBC you can see the current problems with the alien gameplay but UWE is still not able to see those issues.
I think sending a e-mail is not enough, it would be best if they could take some time and speak directly with some of the players. Many of these broken core mechanics were spotted months ago and the game has being build around them, this is causing many issues we are seeing today. A 1 hour friendly chat with few selected players from the community would go a long way.
But if they are willing to reach out with e-mails or Pm's it would also be great.
As far as I know this has been suggested to the devs more than once and ignored?
I really dont get why you wouldent want to take advantage of this as a developer. Especially when you try to make an e-sport.
Forget about competitive play, focus on play.
Forget about competitive play, focus on play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you give an example of an existing mechanic in NS2 that is attractive to high skill players but not to average skill players?
Forget about competitive play, focus on play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much what the trend has been. When was the last time you saw a change geared for "competitive players"? You really should play the game and read more of the changes..
Sometimes I get the impression UW thinks the competitive players are playing an entirely different game. Example, they said drifter rushing is not a problem because it doesn't happen much. Fact is the competitive players often discover tactics like drifter rush, and these then filter down into average skilled matches. Two games I played that same day in pub servers both had alien commanders using drifters to mess up marine movement. Not in a skilled way, but in a being teleported and pushed about by dodgy coding sort of a way.
Exos.
5 Exos walking from marine spawn to enemy alien hive, in a competitive game, is GG. Marines are just suicidal because they don't want to play anymore.
Do the same in a pub game, and it is essentially unstoppable. You want to rally 5 other players who you don't know and have limited communication with, and organise them so they can get around the heavy train without colliding head on with it, all the while timing this perfectly so as to hit the marine base at a point when they cannot turn around, and they cannot do enough damage by going forward? Never going to happen.
Fades.
So you're telling me that my team can be single handedly saved by one player who I give a quick rushed fade to, or my team can be doomed to failure because the person that got the fade died instantly? Great.
Jetpacks.
So absolutely no structures can take this jetpacker down in an insured length of time, meaning that I either leap and knock him out of the air, or he fires off 2 grenade volleys and levels everything if important in the room? Great.
The alien team itself.
They rely almost entirely on using their speed as a means to avoid the enemy and attack undefended locations. That's fine, NS1 was the same. However, the speed advantage aliens have over marines has been cut in half, meaning the the gap between evasion and annihilation is tiny. Its essentially the flick of a switch, which is why there was the marine alien balance discrepancy between pub and competitive play in the past. Pub players weren't precise enough to out maneuver marines, therefore they lost. Competitive players could do it consistently and reliably, therefore marines lost almost all the time.
What those results don't tell you, however, is that almost all the alien rounds were won either by early game baserushes or 7:30 Onos. The upcoming Guru tournament is going to be a sad affair, for both players and spectators, unless there are some big surprise changes to balance in b222.
The problem is that certain fundamental gameplay mechanics are broken. Properly fixing this requires that the developers understand what the issues are and why they're happening. This is not something they will get from staring at statistics from public games.
Having watched the live Q&A yesterday, it is clear that UWE don't understand what the problem is. When I hear things like Flayra saying they're tweaking turrets to provide a counter to baserushes, it really saddens me, because it's completely missing the point.
Now, UWE know a hell of a lot more about designing games than me, and they're are smart guys, so obviously the problem isn't that they lack the capacity to understand. The problem is rather that they don't have experience with gameplay in competitive matches, and the way competitive min/maxing of gameplay mechanics work in practice.
To any devs reading this post: I'd be happy to talk to you about what the problems are and why they're happening. Send me a PM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly right. Some teams tried to make a rule for the guru tournament that you could only drop a tres onos with 3 hives or buy your own with pres. Unfortunately it was not agreed to.
Maybe people that don't understand or own the game will enjoy all the onos play, but in reality they will be cookie cutter crap games.
Because their balance mechanisms only function correctly in high level games.
5 Exos walking from marine spawn to enemy alien hive, in a competitive game, is GG. Marines are just suicidal because they don't want to play anymore.
Do the same in a pub game, and it is essentially unstoppable. You want to rally 5 other players who you don't know and have limited communication with, and organise them so they can get around the heavy train without colliding head on with it, all the while timing this perfectly so as to hit the marine base at a point when they cannot turn around, and they cannot do enough damage by going forward? Never going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current exos suits are not made with competitive play in mind. I really don't like how they play out in gameplay point of view. I think they have negative impact on both competitive and public play. For competitive exos are near impossible to kill because of their damage output when they are positioned correctly. They are basically mobile turrets that can stand in a corner and defend a location forever. The biggest counter to them are gorges because they blind them which allows skulks to take them down. But you only get a chance to do that when they are attacking. I guess the current onos can also stand up to them but aliens usually have less res to use than marines during a game. I also agree that its very bad on the public side because the skill required to use these suites is close to zero. This means that games usually end right away on public when they appear. It's always dangerous to mix such a powerful ability/equipment with ease of use.
iThe biggest positive they get is the cool factor, but that does not help with gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades.
So you're telling me that my team can be single handedly saved by one player who I give a quick rushed fade to, or my team can be doomed to failure because the person that got the fade died instantly? Great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't get the logic behind this one or how it connects to competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpacks.
So absolutely no structures can take this jetpacker down in an insured length of time, meaning that I either leap and knock him out of the air, or he fires off 2 grenade volleys and levels everything if important in the room? Great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most competitive players agree that jetpacks are to cheap (10 pres). The problem isn't that its hard to take them down the first time, the problem is that they can constantly re-buy them.
<!--quoteo(post=1989267:date=Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien team itself.
They rely almost entirely on using their speed as a means to avoid the enemy and attack undefended locations. That's fine, NS1 was the same. However, the speed advantage aliens have over marines has been cut in half, meaning the the gap between evasion and annihilation is tiny. Its essentially the flick of a switch, which is why there was the marine alien balance discrepancy between pub and competitive play in the past. Pub players weren't precise enough to out maneuver marines, therefore they lost. Competitive players could do it consistently and reliably, therefore marines lost almost all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The big problem with limiting alien maneuverability is it gives little freedom to the player to get better. This allows skulks to reach their full potential individually pretty quick which allows them to dominate marines that don't have their aim up yet. However when players get their up to 80%+ accuracy the skulks effectiveness goes down very quickly and you really don't have any ways to deal with that marine. When hitreg/performance get better and players get more chance to play their full potential their aim will be much better than today. If aliens don't have any way to improve their ability to close the distance they will simply be doomed from the start.
I'm pretty sure though that most competitive players would like to see some improvements made on movement for both teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1989271:date=Oct 10 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 10 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because their balance mechanisms only function correctly in high level games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why the main focus should be on making solid mechanics that work before even thinking of balance. I feel like there is way to much focus on balance in discussions today. If the mechanics of the game would try to keep the skill ceiling close to equal for both teams then there would be less issue with balance changes made. This is very hard to do however and it requires a lot of feedback from both new players and veterans. In the end its the game mechanics that keep players interested.
Most of the issues that I see on the forums today have little to do with balance and have more to do how the fundamentals of the game work. It simply makes it very hard to please both communities.
Really really annoying.
they are too quick. if you won't slow them down then a pg should cost at least 2x or 3x what it costs now.
And aliens should choose where to spawn and choose the upgrades while spawning
I would suggest to write a serious letter composed by experienced players (fanatic, gorgeous, rantalogy, locklear etc. , maybe even the team captain from every clan). It is important that we make clear that the whole competetive community stands behind this idea so we could digitally 'sign' it by the clans/teams and players. Maybe someone can ask few of those experienced players to assemble in voice chat and begin the work. I think it is worth a try.