<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I need to work on my ability to engage with my fellow creature in a constructive, polite manner.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
So...still 2 problems I am aware of that haven't been fixed in this patch, and a map change to fix a ugly railing.
Problem 1 Aliens can build unfinished, partially built marine power nodes to 100%. (Double Checked, and it's FIXED. They didn't post it in the changelog)
Problem 2 There is a certain map that has a double stacked RT on it, allowing double the res on 1 point if 2 rt's are dropped.
Map issue: On the map cave/cavern, on ore extraction Tech Point, there is a stair way up to the tech point and the railing to the left of that could be shaved down and square.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed z-fighting on posters and other props.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is still z-fighting in the hallway between Onos Bar and Locker Rooms on Docking.
everyone is complaining about the weakness of the aliens ... of course its easier to play as marine ... every shooter is played like in the marine perspective ... alien is from scratch harder, cause they need to get into melee range and now the marines also have the possibility to evade bites and slashes ... god damn ... this must be hard ... maybe everyone should invest more time in learning the alienplay, than in whining in the forums ...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I also noticed that rebuilding dead power nodes without the welder is just as fast as if you actually had a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's right, but i guess it's a bug ... sometimes, or maybe everytime the destroyed powernode just gets replaced with an unbuild one, so it is just building a new powernode
also there are 2 powernodes stacked in south tunnels and maybe there are still 2 resnodes stacked in logistics both on ns2_tram
I'm a casual gamer who played the mess out of NS1. I payed you $35 for NS2. Out of the 44 hours I've logged in NS2, I've played Aliens for probably 43 of them. 220 pissed me off, but it wound up making me a much better skulk. 221 needed some tweaking on skulks; I was easily getting a 4:1 win ratio (positive personal K:D ratio even against inv. and xckd -- or whatever that clan is). I had no sense of self-preservation as a larger lifeform, so much of my time was spent as a skulk. As of 223, killing noob 'rines is downright difficult. You give marines every possible advantage (other than walking on walls) -- even our footsteps are louder than 'rines.
The skulk -- you know, the lifeform that aliens spend 3/4 of their time in on pub servers, usually -- has exactly one feasible attack. When you nerf that one attack, you've begun a <b>compounding </b>problem throughout the entire alien tech tree. Marines take longer to kill, are harder to kill, waah waah waah. Yet the aliens have NO other reprieve, because once a larger lifeform dies he becomes -- you guessed it -- that puny little skulk again. And man is it puny (except in size, because we all know the marines need bigger targets...)
It is god awful right now, even with 2 hives, leap, celerity, and carapace. If you think otherwise, then get ready to bomb the release.
Perhaps there are some ways to maintain the current bite radius while also buffing skulks to be more skill-based. A smaller hit box, faster movement, and better field of view are the first things that come to mind. Better performance would also help -- it's impossible to keep a single marine in focus given his extra mobility AND jitteryness. And get rid of that ridiculous knockback-on-skulk-bite effect that's both counter-intuitive and downright frustrating.
For the record: Core i5 2500K, 8GB ram, ATI 5850 series -- if you expect your average gamer to have better specs, then you're in for a whole world of disappointing sales.
I have to agree.. I can't stand playing as Alien in this patch. The other lifeforms seem fine, but the skulk is NOT FUN at all! That and GL/ARC spam...
-WildCat-Cape Town, South AfricaJoin Date: 2008-07-19Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1990053:date=Oct 12 2012, 05:03 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 12 2012, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More marine buffs and more alien nerfs. Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1990054:date=Oct 12 2012, 05:07 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 12 2012, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is hard-capped to 100 tick client-side anyway, that's probably why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is somewhat upsetting to me because I have a 120hz monitor and I like to make full use of its capabilities where possible. Admittedly, I would seldom reach that frame rate but, over time, new hardware will become available, people will upgrade their PCs, and the game should scale up to super-ultra-smooth frame rates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SDK <ul><li>Disabled package.loadlib, package.seeall and package functions for loading from DLLs.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is this, why did you disable it? I'd love to hear more about this, what it is and how it works(ext binary interface to LUA / Spark?). Because it 'sounds' great for extensive modability.
I don't know how long its been in the game, but I just experienced that tooltip that pops up when the lifeform you are playing gets a new ability. That's some smooth ######, nicely done.
<!--quoteo(post=1991136:date=Oct 14 2012, 10:32 AM:name=Vitdom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vitdom @ Oct 14 2012, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is this, why did you disable it? I'd love to hear more about this, what it is and how it works(ext binary interface to LUA / Spark?). Because it 'sounds' great for extensive modability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a way to interface with the Lua-interpreter using its C-API. Its use was pioneered by my (now defunct) GameOvermind and fsfod's MenuMod. It allowed interaction with the Lua-scripts from inside a C-library, which opened up a whole list of possibilities that were not possible from inside the script-sandbox. Think things like file-access, internet-access, more complicated code (like hashing, file-compression), incorperation of 3rd-party C\C++ libraries (these are all examples of things I utilized in the unpublished version of GameOvermind). You can find the C-API documentation <a href="http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#3" target="_blank">here</a>.
Now that it has been removed from the Client-VM, fsfod is going to have to make some work-arounds, and possibly cut some features. I just tested the Server-VM, and that also seems to have been stripped of its package-loading ability, which in a changelog-footnote has completely killed GameOvermind (which comprised of about a dozen odd DLLs, about 80% C++, 19% C and 1% Lua-script). I intended to wait for the NS2 v1.0-release to see if there was fertile ground to continue development on it, but it appears the descision has been made for me. I could mess with the engine-binaries to get it to accept DLLs again, but then I would be fighting against the game's own developers, which is a bit of an uphill-struggle. I also have to say that the game's (client, but more importantly server)-performance is still exceedingly poor, to the point where GameOvermind's prize-feature (its gamestate-recorder) would for most servers not be viable for use due to the peformance-impact it incurs (on top of what already is poor performance on a vanila-setup).
<!--quoteo(post=1991676:date=Oct 15 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Cico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cico @ Oct 15 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i was just thinking, maybe a leap using no energy or very small amount of it might help the skulk in scaling vs t2/3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah. You just need teamwork. 2 skulks go in for one marine. First one to go is just the bait and jumps over the marine, second one gnaws him to death from ankles up. It's not possible on pubs unless you moan about it for a while on voice comms, or just act as the bait yourself every time.
Hopefully we can talk a lot more about balance in Q and A tomorrow, I reckon there's a lot of people who have some answers for the devs regarding the current balance situation but every Q and A they are just drowned in a flood of questions that have either been already posed or relate to performance and other more technical aspects of the game.
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still <a href="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog" target="_blank">well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'</a>
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.
Games aren't set in stone, and depending on the skill of the players, the balance of power can swap many times - we had someone calling "gg" the other night, but the game then suddenly flipped in balance of power, and flipped several times more before the aliens finally secured their hard-earned victory.
Just as important as the win ratios is the reason for the win. If you break down the alien wins, what percentage came from unsatisfying gimmicks like an early skulk rush or a hive 2 khamm-dropped onos?
<!--quoteo(post=1991824:date=Oct 15 2012, 12:21 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 15 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as important as the win ratios is the reason for the win. If you break down the alien wins, what percentage came from unsatisfying gimmicks like an early skulk rush or a hive 2 khamm-dropped onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what he meant by issues that preserve the 50/50 ratio but aren't fun.
I think it's pretty clear that whatever balance issues there are now, it's not as horrific as people are making it out to be. Looking at the last tourney results: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121877&st=0&p=1991011&#entry1991011" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1991011</a> you can clearly see that the vast majority of games were 2 and 0, i.e. the better team won with both sides very consistently. If one team had a huge advantage you would see a lot of 2-1 wins. And games being decided by the most skilled team is even more common in pub play IMO due to the randomness of the skill distribution.
<!--quoteo(post=1991824:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Oct 15 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as important as the win ratios is the reason for the win. If you break down the alien wins, what percentage came from unsatisfying gimmicks like an early skulk rush or a hive 2 khamm-dropped onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. I feel cheap dropping a second hive onos egg, but it's often the only way to win a game. (Or even just stay in the game). Not to mention T1 (1 hive) alien play is completely unsatisfactory currently, with alien strategic gameplay in general being incredibly shallow...
Also, if you look at the recent tournament you would see that in fact a majority of alien wins were either base rushes or onos egg drops... (Or one team being just clearly better)
<!--quoteo(post=1991835:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 15 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's what he meant by issues that preserve the 50/50 ratio but aren't fun.
I think it's pretty clear that whatever balance issues there are now, it's not as horrific as people are making it out to be. Looking at the last tourney results: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121877&st=0&p=1991011&#entry1991011" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1991011</a> you can clearly see that the vast majority of games were 2 and 0, i.e. the better team won with both sides very consistently. If one team had a huge advantage you would see a lot of 2-1 wins. And games being decided by the most skilled team is even more common in pub play IMO due to the randomness of the skill distribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's more than whether or not it's fun. If gimmicks are responsible for the 50/50 balance, then once those gimmicks are fixed balance will be way off.
I think it's the "micro-balance" of early game marine v skulk combat thats making it seem unbalanced to many in the general player base. Overall wins might be near 50/50, but when you're seeing the top few marines in an average game right now quickly go 10 - 15 kills before dying it doesn't seem like a balanced (or fun) experience... even if it IS balanced in the bigger picture.
W/L ratios is only part of the perceived balance in the game.
Losing as marines is much more fun that losing as aliens. This feel of marines being OP comes from consistently feeling helpless when losing as aliens.
The reason being that a marine team at one base still has the tech to at least have a fighting chance against a 2 hive alien team. At one hive the alien team is like fish in a barrel against a 2 CC marine team. 3 skulks without leap trying to kill a single jetpacker and dying from a single grenade is not fun.
Shifting more alien tech to only requiring 1 hive (lerk spores, bile bomb) will give the aliens enough tech to have a chance when their back is against the wall against a 2 CC marine team. And therefore give losing alien players the feeling that they do have a fighting chance, thus making alien loses less frustrating and reducing the perception that marines are OP.
edit2: I understand that giving aliens access to leap, spores, or bile at hive 1 may skew early game balance (bile bomb gorge rush?). Perhaps reintroducing the concept of a mature hive would help in the sense that those abilities can only be unlocked when the 1 hive becomes mature after a few minutes. This gets into another discussion of alien building maturity which is a whole topic in itself.
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still <a href="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog" target="_blank">well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'</a>
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We all respect you and your passion for NS2 Hugh and so do UW. In fact so much so they gave you a job which we all agree you deserve. We are passionate about the game too so forgive our rants but we deserve to be heard.
The NS2 stats that UW insist on working from simply do not give an accurate representation of what is happening in game. I and many others have said this. Since 219 for example I have seen Aliens struggle badly. 219 was near perfect. It was literally 50/50 which side won when starting a round. The fact there are so many players on here expressing their concerns should be a hint that something is wrong and not be taken as an attack on UW. In the games I have seen recently, Aliens lose the majority of the time. Where Marines lose its usually down to an inexperienced comm/first time comm or in many cases a comm who insists on recycling even in games were Marines are looking likely to win. I have seen games were Marines have control of the majority of the map to have the comm recycle to the amazement of the rest of the team. I have seen players jump into the comm chair and recycle and leave the server to grief an many occasions. Not to mention the very common last ditch Skulk rush which is a common sight now which somehow often works even when Marines are dominating.. These are a few of the many reasons why the stats should not taken too seriously as a balance tool.
The few times I have seen Aliens win in balanced games with equal comms is when a second very early hive is dropped and an Onos egg is saved up for. This is very effective and early game it is hard for Marines to combat against that as well as the Skulk rushes. Its predictable, not fun, linear and lacks the dynamics the game should have considering all the life forms and upgrades that are potentially available. I have seen this tactic even in competitive games which says to me there is something wrong with the balance.
The problem for me is the devs seem to be taking all their advice from pro comp clan players who play with teamwork and proper comms, teamspeak/vent and who are very good players but the huge majority of players at launch and during the lifetime of the game will be casual public players. The game has to be balanced with both sets of players in mind not just one.
600+ hours in and after 3 years of playing and I have struggled as Alien recently and so have many others so it cannot be a coincidence. Personally I have stopped playing for the moment as Alien play is not fun, just frustrating while Marine play is no challenge at all.
The Aliens need a bit of love atm, just a bit to make them fun again and make not only comp games viable but pub games also. The pub players like me will be UW bread and butter so don't forget about us please.
Don't take to heart what we say though. We love you guys and personally I have a ton of respect for what has been done, especially considering you had to build your own engine from scratch. We are passionate about the game as well as you and we so desperately want NS2 to be the success it deserves. We signed up and paid our money to support and test the game. Please listen to us as you have in the past on several areas of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1991859:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:26 PM:name=HAPPYCAT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HAPPYCAT @ Oct 15 2012, 08:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->W/L ratios is only part of the perceived balance in the game.
Losing as marines is much more fun that losing as aliens. This feel of marines being OP comes from consistently feeling helpless when losing as aliens.
The reason being that a marine team at one base still has the tech to at least have a fighting chance against a 2 hive alien team. At one hive the alien team is like fish in a barrel against a 2 CC marine team. 3 skulks without leap trying to kill a single jetpacker and dying from a single grenade is not fun.
Shifting more alien tech to only requiring 1 hive (lerk spores, bile bomb) will give the aliens enough tech to have a chance when their back is against the wall against a 2 CC marine team. And therefore give losing alien players the feeling that they do have a fighting chance, thus making alien loses less frustrating and reducing the perception that marines are OP.
edit2: I understand that giving aliens access to leap, spores, or bile at hive 1 may skew early game balance (bile bomb gorge rush?). Perhaps reintroducing the concept of a mature hive would help in the sense that those abilities can only be unlocked when the 1 hive becomes mature after a few minutes. This gets into another discussion of alien building maturity which is a whole topic in itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is more a symptom of self important thinking, which is pretty hard to avoid really, since we aren't really playing this game for other peoples enjoyment, but for our own.
Every marine is essentially the same. If you're a normal light marine you have average fire power and survivability, jetpackers have the same firepower and survivability, but increased mobility, which doesn't help all that much, but also makes you a more prominent target. Exos are the same, with more firepower and more survivability, but reduced mobility and the target of heavy focus. It all equals out really. You never feel outmatched or out-gunned because you aren't an exo or a JP.
Aliens on the other hand are completely different. Your two Fade buddies can be blinking in and out of marines base, killing marines by the dozens, but as soon as you leap in as a skulk, and get one shotted by a shotgun, everything feels ###### and lame and boring. Its just the way the team is. You can be winning by a land slide but still be dying instantly. Its just about playing the role you have to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1991864:date=Oct 15 2012, 12:38 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Oct 15 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem for me is the devs seem to be taking all their advice from pro comp clan players who play with teamwork and proper comms, teamspeak/vent and who are very good players but the huge majority of players at launch and during the lifetime of the game will be casual public players. The game has to be balanced with both sets of players in mind not just one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive players get equally ignored just like everyone else, rest assured. =)
Comments
Problem 1
Aliens can build unfinished, partially built marine power nodes to 100%. (Double Checked, and it's FIXED. They didn't post it in the changelog)
Problem 2
There is a certain map that has a double stacked RT on it, allowing double the res on 1 point if 2 rt's are dropped.
Map issue:
On the map cave/cavern, on ore extraction Tech Point, there is a stair way up to the tech point and the railing to the left of that could be shaved down and square.
<a href="http://stopspazzing.com/images/2012-10-12_00002.jpg" target="_blank">Map issue</a>
<a href="http://stopspazzing.com/images/2012-10-12_00003.jpg" target="_blank">Map issue</a>
There is still z-fighting in the hallway between Onos Bar and Locker Rooms on Docking.
Example:
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/lriQz.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/lriQz.jpg</a>
of course its easier to play as marine ... every shooter is played like in the marine perspective ...
alien is from scratch harder, cause they need to get into melee range and now the marines also have the possibility to evade bites and slashes ... god damn ... this must be hard ...
maybe everyone should invest more time in learning the alienplay, than in whining in the forums ...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I also noticed that rebuilding dead power nodes without the welder is just as fast as if you actually had a welder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's right, but i guess it's a bug ... sometimes, or maybe everytime the destroyed powernode just gets replaced with an unbuild one, so it is just building a new powernode
also there are 2 powernodes stacked in south tunnels
and maybe there are still 2 resnodes stacked in logistics
both on ns2_tram
I'm a casual gamer who played the mess out of NS1. I payed you $35 for NS2. Out of the 44 hours I've logged in NS2, I've played Aliens for probably 43 of them. 220 pissed me off, but it wound up making me a much better skulk. 221 needed some tweaking on skulks; I was easily getting a 4:1 win ratio (positive personal K:D ratio even against inv. and xckd -- or whatever that clan is). I had no sense of self-preservation as a larger lifeform, so much of my time was spent as a skulk. As of 223, killing noob 'rines is downright difficult. You give marines every possible advantage (other than walking on walls) -- even our footsteps are louder than 'rines.
The skulk -- you know, the lifeform that aliens spend 3/4 of their time in on pub servers, usually -- has exactly one feasible attack. When you nerf that one attack, you've begun a <b>compounding </b>problem throughout the entire alien tech tree. Marines take longer to kill, are harder to kill, waah waah waah. Yet the aliens have NO other reprieve, because once a larger lifeform dies he becomes -- you guessed it -- that puny little skulk again. And man is it puny (except in size, because we all know the marines need bigger targets...)
It is god awful right now, even with 2 hives, leap, celerity, and carapace. If you think otherwise, then get ready to bomb the release.
Perhaps there are some ways to maintain the current bite radius while also buffing skulks to be more skill-based. A smaller hit box, faster movement, and better field of view are the first things that come to mind. Better performance would also help -- it's impossible to keep a single marine in focus given his extra mobility AND jitteryness. And get rid of that ridiculous knockback-on-skulk-bite effect that's both counter-intuitive and downright frustrating.
For the record: Core i5 2500K, 8GB ram, ATI 5850 series -- if you expect your average gamer to have better specs, then you're in for a whole world of disappointing sales.
-Jesse
Skulks need to be faster, simple.
<!--quoteo(post=1990054:date=Oct 12 2012, 05:07 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 12 2012, 05:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is hard-capped to 100 tick client-side anyway, that's probably why.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is somewhat upsetting to me because I have a 120hz monitor and I like to make full use of its capabilities where possible. Admittedly, I would seldom reach that frame rate but, over time, new hardware will become available, people will upgrade their PCs, and the game should scale up to super-ultra-smooth frame rates.
<ul><li>Disabled package.loadlib, package.seeall and package functions for loading from DLLs.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is this, why did you disable it? I'd love to hear more about this, what it is and how it works(ext binary interface to LUA / Spark?). Because it 'sounds' great for extensive modability.
It is a way to interface with the Lua-interpreter using its C-API. Its use was pioneered by my (now defunct) GameOvermind and fsfod's MenuMod. It allowed interaction with the Lua-scripts from inside a C-library, which opened up a whole list of possibilities that were not possible from inside the script-sandbox. Think things like file-access, internet-access, more complicated code (like hashing, file-compression), incorperation of 3rd-party C\C++ libraries (these are all examples of things I utilized in the unpublished version of GameOvermind). You can find the C-API documentation <a href="http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#3" target="_blank">here</a>.
Now that it has been removed from the Client-VM, fsfod is going to have to make some work-arounds, and possibly cut some features. I just tested the Server-VM, and that also seems to have been stripped of its package-loading ability, which in a changelog-footnote has completely killed GameOvermind (which comprised of about a dozen odd DLLs, about 80% C++, 19% C and 1% Lua-script). I intended to wait for the NS2 v1.0-release to see if there was fertile ground to continue development on it, but it appears the descision has been made for me. I could mess with the engine-binaries to get it to accept DLLs again, but then I would be fighting against the game's own developers, which is a bit of an uphill-struggle. I also have to say that the game's (client, but more importantly server)-performance is still exceedingly poor, to the point where GameOvermind's prize-feature (its gamestate-recorder) would for most servers not be viable for use due to the peformance-impact it incurs (on top of what already is poor performance on a vanila-setup).
(as it was with the old adrenaline upgrade)
Nah. You just need teamwork. 2 skulks go in for one marine. First one to go is just the bait and jumps over the marine, second one gnaws him to death from ankles up. It's not possible on pubs unless you moan about it for a while on voice comms, or just act as the bait yourself every time.
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still <a href="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog" target="_blank">well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'</a>
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.
Games aren't set in stone, and depending on the skill of the players, the balance of power can swap many times - we had someone calling "gg" the other night, but the game then suddenly flipped in balance of power, and flipped several times more before the aliens finally secured their hard-earned victory.
That's what he meant by issues that preserve the 50/50 ratio but aren't fun.
I think it's pretty clear that whatever balance issues there are now, it's not as horrific as people are making it out to be. Looking at the last tourney results: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121877&st=0&p=1991011&#entry1991011" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1991011</a> you can clearly see that the vast majority of games were 2 and 0, i.e. the better team won with both sides very consistently. If one team had a huge advantage you would see a lot of 2-1 wins. And games being decided by the most skilled team is even more common in pub play IMO due to the randomness of the skill distribution.
This. I feel cheap dropping a second hive onos egg, but it's often the only way to win a game. (Or even just stay in the game). Not to mention T1 (1 hive) alien play is completely unsatisfactory currently, with alien strategic gameplay in general being incredibly shallow...
Also, if you look at the recent tournament you would see that in fact a majority of alien wins were either base rushes or onos egg drops...
(Or one team being just clearly better)
I think it's pretty clear that whatever balance issues there are now, it's not as horrific as people are making it out to be. Looking at the last tourney results: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121877&st=0&p=1991011&#entry1991011" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1991011</a> you can clearly see that the vast majority of games were 2 and 0, i.e. the better team won with both sides very consistently. If one team had a huge advantage you would see a lot of 2-1 wins. And games being decided by the most skilled team is even more common in pub play IMO due to the randomness of the skill distribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more than whether or not it's fun. If gimmicks are responsible for the 50/50 balance, then once those gimmicks are fixed balance will be way off.
Losing as marines is much more fun that losing as aliens. This feel of marines being OP comes from consistently feeling helpless when losing as aliens.
The reason being that a marine team at one base still has the tech to at least have a fighting chance against a 2 hive alien team. At one hive the alien team is like fish in a barrel against a 2 CC marine team. 3 skulks without leap trying to kill a single jetpacker and dying from a single grenade is not fun.
Shifting more alien tech to only requiring 1 hive (lerk spores, bile bomb) will give the aliens enough tech to have a chance when their back is against the wall against a 2 CC marine team. And therefore give losing alien players the feeling that they do have a fighting chance, thus making alien loses less frustrating and reducing the perception that marines are OP.
edit2: I understand that giving aliens access to leap, spores, or bile at hive 1 may skew early game balance (bile bomb gorge rush?). Perhaps reintroducing the concept of a mature hive would help in the sense that those abilities can only be unlocked when the 1 hive becomes mature after a few minutes. This gets into another discussion of alien building maturity which is a whole topic in itself.
The perceived swing towards marines is not as large as some posts would lead you to believe. Every build from 212 to 222 has favoured aliens, (except 220, which was 49.8/50.2 in favour of marines). 223 favours marines 53.9% to 46.1% (p=~2000) which is still <a href="http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog" target="_blank">well within Starcraft 2 levels of 'acceptable balance.'</a>
It is likely that after several months of high alien win rates, our perception of 'normal' has been skewed away from marine wins. Your perception of balance will also be skewed by map favouritism. For example, if you like to play a lot of Docking (like me) you will be experiences higher numbers of marine wins, as that is currently the least balanced map (changes coming). Tram is currently the most balanced map (49.4 / 50.6) closely followed by Summit. Mineshaft is skewed in the other direction at the moment and is also being worked on.
Further evidence to argue against a significant inherent imbalance in the game can be found from a competitive perspective. In the recent Guru Tournament, an incredible (and previously unthinkable) 86% of best of x matches were taken as straight wins by one team.
If you are forming an opinion about the current state of NS2 balance, you had best ignore the more extreme posts in this thread. Look instead to the numerous nuanced, thoughtful pieces of discussion. NS2 long ago moved away from the terrible, clearly biased 'macro-balance' of the Alpha and early Beta builds. We are now well and truly at the point where 'micro-balance' is the focus. For example 'exosuits are arriving at the 1 minute mark. The game balance may be 50/50 but exosuits at the 1 minute mark is terrible gameplay.' Obviously this is not true, it's just an example.
EDIT: Another example could be 'marines are getting 2 kills for every alien kill, the game may be 50/50 but this is not fun.' (The stats indicate that marine kills could be getting out of hand, and that is being looked at).
'OMG WTF UWE they always nerf aliens!!11! Marines always win game balance is [insert rage expletive]' - This kind of assertion is obviously untrue, unhelpful, and does not contribute to discovery of real balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We all respect you and your passion for NS2 Hugh and so do UW. In fact so much so they gave you a job which we all agree you deserve. We are passionate about the game too so forgive our rants but we deserve to be heard.
The NS2 stats that UW insist on working from simply do not give an accurate representation of what is happening in game. I and many others have said this. Since 219 for example I have seen Aliens struggle badly. 219 was near perfect. It was literally 50/50 which side won when starting a round. The fact there are so many players on here expressing their concerns should be a hint that something is wrong and not be taken as an attack on UW. In the games I have seen recently, Aliens lose the majority of the time. Where Marines lose its usually down to an inexperienced comm/first time comm or in many cases a comm who insists on recycling even in games were Marines are looking likely to win. I have seen games were Marines have control of the majority of the map to have the comm recycle to the amazement of the rest of the team. I have seen players jump into the comm chair and recycle and leave the server to grief an many occasions. Not to mention the very common last ditch Skulk rush which is a common sight now which somehow often works even when Marines are dominating.. These are a few of the many reasons why the stats should not taken too seriously as a balance tool.
The few times I have seen Aliens win in balanced games with equal comms is when a second very early hive is dropped and an Onos egg is saved up for. This is very effective and early game it is hard for Marines to combat against that as well as the Skulk rushes. Its predictable, not fun, linear and lacks the dynamics the game should have considering all the life forms and upgrades that are potentially available. I have seen this tactic even in competitive games which says to me there is something wrong with the balance.
The problem for me is the devs seem to be taking all their advice from pro comp clan players who play with teamwork and proper comms, teamspeak/vent and who are very good players but the huge majority of players at launch and during the lifetime of the game will be casual public players. The game has to be balanced with both sets of players in mind not just one.
600+ hours in and after 3 years of playing and I have struggled as Alien recently and so have many others so it cannot be a coincidence. Personally I have stopped playing for the moment as Alien play is not fun, just frustrating while Marine play is no challenge at all.
The Aliens need a bit of love atm, just a bit to make them fun again and make not only comp games viable but pub games also. The pub players like me will be UW bread and butter so don't forget about us please.
Don't take to heart what we say though. We love you guys and personally I have a ton of respect for what has been done, especially considering you had to build your own engine from scratch. We are passionate about the game as well as you and we so desperately want NS2 to be the success it deserves. We signed up and paid our money to support and test the game. Please listen to us as you have in the past on several areas of the game.
Sal
Losing as marines is much more fun that losing as aliens. This feel of marines being OP comes from consistently feeling helpless when losing as aliens.
The reason being that a marine team at one base still has the tech to at least have a fighting chance against a 2 hive alien team. At one hive the alien team is like fish in a barrel against a 2 CC marine team. 3 skulks without leap trying to kill a single jetpacker and dying from a single grenade is not fun.
Shifting more alien tech to only requiring 1 hive (lerk spores, bile bomb) will give the aliens enough tech to have a chance when their back is against the wall against a 2 CC marine team. And therefore give losing alien players the feeling that they do have a fighting chance, thus making alien loses less frustrating and reducing the perception that marines are OP.
edit2: I understand that giving aliens access to leap, spores, or bile at hive 1 may skew early game balance (bile bomb gorge rush?). Perhaps reintroducing the concept of a mature hive would help in the sense that those abilities can only be unlocked when the 1 hive becomes mature after a few minutes. This gets into another discussion of alien building maturity which is a whole topic in itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is more a symptom of self important thinking, which is pretty hard to avoid really, since we aren't really playing this game for other peoples enjoyment, but for our own.
Every marine is essentially the same. If you're a normal light marine you have average fire power and survivability, jetpackers have the same firepower and survivability, but increased mobility, which doesn't help all that much, but also makes you a more prominent target. Exos are the same, with more firepower and more survivability, but reduced mobility and the target of heavy focus. It all equals out really. You never feel outmatched or out-gunned because you aren't an exo or a JP.
Aliens on the other hand are completely different. Your two Fade buddies can be blinking in and out of marines base, killing marines by the dozens, but as soon as you leap in as a skulk, and get one shotted by a shotgun, everything feels ###### and lame and boring. Its just the way the team is. You can be winning by a land slide but still be dying instantly. Its just about playing the role you have to play.
Competitive players get equally ignored just like everyone else, rest assured. =)