<!--quoteo(post=2014629:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:30 PM:name=Evil_Sheep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_Sheep @ Nov 7 2012, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be very surprised if UWE does not nerf early onos. Squirreli pretty much <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123748&view=findpost&p=2013821" target="_blank">exactly nails it in his post</a> why early onos is imbalanced. I believe that UWE will certainly nerf early onos, not just because it is overpowered but because: <ul><li>It removes gameplay diversity and early and midgame now revolves around early onos and countering early onos</li><li>Onos is the lowest skill lifeform in NS2 and does not promote high-skill play</li><li>Onos is intended to be a endgame unit and I'm sure that UWE never intended for NS2 to be a game where endgame units were consistently popping up in the first 5 minutes long before fades</li><li>There have been tons of complaints from players</li><li>There is a consensus in the competitive community that it is imbalanced</li></ul>I think the only question is when it is addressed. The other factor is that UWE will probably need to playtest before they nerf early onos because I actually feel that aliens are relying heavily on early onos to survive early game right now, and in its absence marines might dominate over aliens, therefore requiring boost to aliens or nerfs to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome post. :) So, as to the main question - When is this going to happen? - is there any way we can get an idea of when to expect it? Balance was a pretty much continuous issue in the beta, does anyone remember the usual response time for major balance patches? Clearly, it will be a bit different since this is not beta and they are not still working on game creation, but I would imagine that it would be similar...
So if Onos is moved onto the third hive as a requirement to drop one, what do you envision the aliens new strategy to win being other than rush the Marines base at the get-go, and how do the Aliens shut down the Marines when they get Exo suits with two command chairs and are denying the Aliens their third hive?
Hmm...
(I already know someone's going to say Fades. Good luck with that strategy vs. shotguns.)
I think that it is clear that there are other issues that should be addressed alongside of the early Onos drop. I would like to see the fade being buffed.
I guess the best thing would be to see every unit having an effective role, not over or understated. Fades right now are underwhelming, and early Onos is overwhelming. Fix both units and voila! I love the current implementation of Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges, so hopefully they are not changed.
<!--quoteo(post=2014718:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:39 PM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 7 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that it is clear that there are other issues that should be addressed alongside of the early Onos drop. I would like to see the fade being buffed.
I guess the best thing would be to see every unit having an effective role, not over or understated. Fades right now are underwhelming, and early Onos is overwhelming. Fix both units and voila! I love the current implementation of Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges, so hopefully they are not changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bit more reasonable. I've said in quite a few threads, as have many others, that moving the Exo to a third CC and splitting the marines upgrades between three CC's while raising the HP and/or damage of Fades as a reasonable change along with nerfing Onos to a third hive. I would actually prefer this outcome myself, since the outcry against the early Onos seems fairly overwelming whether I see an issue with it or not.
I would also like Spores and Umbra to be reversed in how they're deployed by the player (Fired vs. Crop Dusting), but that might just be me.
I like being able to drop onos eggs, but people would still ###### if it required 3 hives. So without being able to drop onos eggs aliens are absolutely no fun cause you know you will lose. For some reason I feel like all of the people complaining about the onos are the ones that sit in the ready room for 5 minutes trying to get on the marine team and then realize the game is already over.
I don't know about competitive balance, but in terms of skill requirements, going for fast onos is so much easier to pull off than any marine counter to that strategy. the alien comm can even be zerging with the rest of the team for most of the match
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.
<!--quoteo(post=2014523:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:15 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the Onos crashed, then how are you attributing the win to an early Onos? I think you made a logic fail there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't... but I never said it did. It was a counter point to "onos being risky"... The game was won by the fact we only had 2 hives but were able to constantly spam Tres onos eggs all game.
So why don't you stop with your pathetic insulting attitude?
Onos drops are broken, the rest of the alien tech chart is also broken and the only reason we cant see it is that aliens win all of their games via Tres Onos spam.
<!--quoteo(post=2014860:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:34 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 7 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about competitive balance, but in terms of skill requirements, going for fast onos is so much easier to pull off than any marine counter to that strategy. the alien comm can even be zerging with the rest of the team for most of the match
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Want to know how to counter early onos? Get out of base, I'm amazed at how many games marines literally sit in base building turrets and try to turtle their way out. And sadly it would work everytime if aliens didn't have an onos. The only way to beat the marine turtle is with an onos. It was a strategy developed to to stop the strongest marine strategy, but it's easily countered by aggressive marines. It takes 125 seconds to get an onos with 3 res towers. Aliens start with 50 res, of that they need 20 to drop the towers and probably about 15 to cyst to those towers. It also takes time for those harvesters to come up, roughly 45 seconds. If you kill the 2 harvesters that sets them back 6 minutes and 25 seconds.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.
<!--quoteo(post=2014873:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:43 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 8 2012, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Want to know how to counter early onos? Get out of base, I'm amazed at how many games marines literally sit in base building turrets and try to turtle their way out. And sadly it would work everytime if aliens didn't have an onos. The only way to beat the marine turtle is with an onos. It was a strategy developed to to stop the strongest marine strategy, but it's easily countered by aggressive marines. It takes 125 seconds to get an onos with 3 res towers. Aliens start with 50 res, of that they need 20 to drop the towers and probably about 15 to cyst to those towers. It also takes time for those harvesters to come up, roughly 45 seconds. If you kill the 2 harvesters that sets them back 6 minutes and 25 seconds.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you are embracing:
<!--quoteo(post=2014725:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 8 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos or lose before Onos...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really want this to be the entire future of NS2?
<!--quoteo(post=2014860:date=Nov 8 2012, 01:04 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 8 2012, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014860"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about competitive balance, but in terms of skill requirements, going for fast onos is so much easier to pull off than any marine counter to that strategy. the alien comm can even be zerging with the rest of the team for most of the match
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines are free and expendable costing no res an Onos costs 75. That's why people are comparing. You can lose 4 out of 5 of those marines and still come out a winner. A fast Onos rush requires good teamwork on the part of the Aliens because if you do it they will have had no other upgrades. No carpace, no leap. That puts the ordinary skulk at a significant disadvantage early on.
An Onos by itself won't last long against any pack of Marines. If the Aliens lose that Onos it's all over for them.
<!--quoteo(post=2014316:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:04 AM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 8 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The early Onos should be a legit strat... the more legit strats, the better. It's what makes strategy games deeper. The problem is that the amount of Marine personnel needed to deal with an early Onos is off the chart. You're looking at 1 Alien player as an Onos versus at least 3 or 4 Marine players, if not more. Yeah, the Onos is killable, but you're very likely to sacrifice map control because the other Alien players can take out Marine extractors and power nodes, or attack another base entirely if that many Marines are occupied with the Onos. It's a lose/lose situation for Marines, either let it wreak havoc or sacrifice map control to try and bring it down... and neither option is good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes but the same can be said with the Skulk vs Marine especially when they get their permanent upgrades. 1 skulk vs a w3/a3 Marine rarely wins if the Marines knows how to play. Normally instead you see two skulks attacking same time. That's 1 Marine tieing up 2 Alien players. Furthmore Aliens suck at holding territory, their sentry like things the Whips are junk and they have no beacon or phase gates to quickly beam around the map to defend where needed.
I love when pub players come in and talk about balance as if they have played a single competitive game of NS2. Discussing how they personally have done something that counters all logic because they personally have beaten a certain strategy in pub.
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
Ok... let me give a try at looking at this from a different angle. I think the problem people have with this tactic might be something deeper than 'Onos are just too strong'.
I see plenty of people are willing to testify that an early onos can be countered, so I do have doubts that the onos itself is overpowered, but there is probably also a good reason why so many new players don't like it, and I think this has to do with how the game is played overall.
So let me take a guess and start with a demonstration...
On one of my first games as human commander, I tried the 'turtling outward' tactic, expanding slowly and focusing on tech research and upgrades instead of expansion. Worried about leaving a bad impression as commander, I wanted to focus on getting defenses up and take care of my teammates with upgrades first instead of ordering them to death right from the get-go.
I was quickly punished for it. The aliens rushed outward and seized control of most of the map. It was only a few more minutes before they got an onos out. At the end of the game, I was harshly criticized for not expanding. I was at a total loss as to how all my caution was so worthless in the eyes of the enemy and my fellow team.
So next game as human com, I try to focus more on expansion first, and then built up once we had a good amount of map control. My team was good, and helped compensate for my amateur skills. The enemy team got pushed back again and again, and we only got more and more res. Once I broke out the double exos and jetpacks it was just a slaughter for them.
So based on that experience of mine, I think the game works soley on map control. Taking res nodes, and countering the enemy's attacks with your own is what wins. Caution and defense are generally not worthwhile, because you risk control to increase your defense. All tactical options, in some way, punish defensiveness and slowness; early onos is just one of the best tactics for punishing early defense.
If you aren't expanding and getting attack upgrades, you aren't winning.
Maybe that's how the game was meant to work, but at the same time, I can see how a lot of more cautious rts players like me can be a little frustrated at first when caution gets you punished. Rush tactics and attacking are the only thing worthwhile. Be it an early Onos, a resource grab, phase tech first, or whatever. Defensive tactics just don't work in this game. Even the powerful 'marines with GLs turtle' is bound to lose eventually as the enemy resource begins to trickle down.
So I wonder, should defense strategies not work in this game at all, and everything is just as planned? Or are legitimate moves being punished by overpowered rush tactics; like early Onos?
"I'm pretty bad at marines but.... this is how it should be balanced"
"I've never played a comp match but this is how you beat onos."
"I've never comm'd in my life but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to beat onos."
It's ######en hilarious.
Just shut up and don't post if you don't know what you're talking about :)
But then you've got even worse people like imbalanxed who is like king of the scrubs but doesn't know it trying to bring in his mega pub scrub knowledge to counter the real competitive players that actually have a clue.
<!--quoteo(post=2014920:date=Nov 7 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Blindga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blindga @ Nov 7 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So next game as human com, I try to focus more on expansion first, and then built up once we had a good amount of map control. My team was good, and helped compensate for my amateur skills. The enemy team got pushed back again and again, and we only got more and more res. Once I broke out the double exos and jetpacks it was just a slaughter for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, if you are aggressive you can actually beat an early onos strat. OMG what a revelation! It's no different than in any RTS actually, in SC if you try to sit in one spot and not expand you will lose. Supreme Commander, you have to get more than 1 set of resources. Same with Warcraft, it's all about keeping pressure while expanding. If I'm comm as aliens and the marines aren't leaving base, I'm getting every single res tower I can and rushing an onos. If the marines are pushing out early I have to rush a second hive and carapace and celerity.
Compared to the Beta things have gotten so easy on the alien comm it's ridiculous. Marines just need to play aggressively.
<!--quoteo(post=2014950:date=Nov 7 2012, 07:46 PM:name=Koven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koven @ Nov 7 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't you love it when you see "I've never played a comp match but this is how you beat onos."
"I've never comm'd in my life but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to beat onos."
It's ######en hilarious.
Just shut up and don't post if you don't know what you're talking about :)
But then you've got even worse people like imbalanxed who is like king of the scrubs but doesn't know it trying to bring in his mega pub scrub knowledge to counter the real competitive players that actually have a clue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what's even more "######en" hilarious? (whatever curse has 8 letters and ends with 'en') A dude that has all of 24 posts and thinks that you need to be on a comp team to actually know how to play the game. I actually have a pretty good number of hours compared to some of the guys who play competitively, but I'm not on a team cause there just aren't many teams in USA right now. And really there isn't any centralized spot for people who want to get on teams, so really it's just like a secret club you don't get into unless you know someone. So please feel free to drop the stupid attitude.
Also it's not the comm that kills an onos it's the team, and yes, it's quite easy with 4 marines.
Aliens need to be aggressive early on to have a chance of winning. You'll often see players hiding on the roof for Marines to come instead of raiding their harvesters. This is how a team loses fast. Marines can get away with 1 base for most of the game even if that means no Exos. Exos aren't even that important anyway compared to what a good jet pack can do. Early phase gates for Marines can lock down the map pretty damn well.
I'd like to see onos moved to the 3rd hive. But only if we see a trend away from armoury blocking. As long as marines do that I see nothing OP about having an onos enter the field mid-game. Though I understand it's probably one of the only viable defences at the moment and this is the reason it's so prevalent.
Even if it does still happen, onos needs to be in 3rd hive. I think exos should only be able to be dropped with tres on 3rd comm station aswell, despite the fact they're different in that it costs tres to research it and onos does not (apart from upgrades and stomp).
<!--quoteo(post=2014917:date=Nov 7 2012, 07:20 PM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 7 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love when pub players come in and talk about balance as if they have played a single competitive game of NS2. Discussing how they personally have done something that counters all logic because they personally have beaten a certain strategy in pub.
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
/rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on any balance issues right now, but do you think that comp players are the only ones that can have valid opinions? You guys aren't even playing the same game as the rest of us... we have up to twice as many players and less than half of the coordination. I know that you have to pay special attention to balancing the highest tier of play because balancing for less skilled play either lowers the skill ceiling or ###### up gameplay for the higher tier; but how many of the 144,000 people who own this game are comp players? I haven't done any research, but even if there are 1000 comp players (I really doubt there are much more than 100, if that), you guys are less than 1% of the community.
The attitude you have in the quoted post is what killed the T:A community and it'll kill this game too, it spreads like an infection and it's really naive to think you guys know best when most of us aren't playing the game under the comp format.
<!--quoteo(post=2014917:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:20 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 8 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love when pub players come in and talk about balance as if they have played a single competitive game of NS2. Discussing how they personally have done something that counters all logic because they personally have beaten a certain strategy in pub.
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
/rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer to think for myself, thanks. You can follow them blindly if your brain hurts just contemplating it, nobody will judge.
<!--quoteo(post=2014996:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:43 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on any balance issues right now, but do you think that comp players are the only ones that can have valid opinions? You guys aren't even playing the same game as the rest of us... we have up to twice as many players and less than half of the coordination. I know that you have to pay special attention to balancing the highest tier of play because balancing for less skilled play either lowers the skill ceiling or ###### up gameplay for the higher tier; but how many of the 144,000 people who own this game are comp players? I haven't done any research, but even if there are 1000 comp players (I really doubt there are much more than 100, if that), you guys are less than 1% of the community.
The attitude you have in the quoted post is what killed the T:A community and it'll kill this game too, it spreads like an infection and it's really naive to think you guys know best when most of us aren't playing the game under the comp format.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not a competitive player, he just likes to look up to them and aspire to be just like them. In fact, nobody in this community could be called "competitive" while still attributing any significant meaning to the term. Competitive eh? You played against like 4 other teams? Even if you beat them, that hardly calls for any honorary title to be bestowed. In well developed games like SC2, the competitive players are double and triple as good as the players who are merely considered "good". At the moment, in NS2, one would struggle to differentiate between what we call "competitive" and plain beta players.
Not to over-simplify NS2 or anything, but is it really that complicated and deep of a game where you have to invest hundreds of hours into it and play competitively to understand everything that's going on? You can make the argument that it is as a commander, but I'd have to balk on any other case.
<!--quoteo(post=2014998:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:45 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's not a competitive player, he just likes to look up to them and aspire to be just like them. In fact, nobody in this community could be called "competitive" while still attributing any significant meaning to the term. Competitive eh? You played against like 4<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->*Well over 20 team, over 6 tournaments, and more then 1000 scrims*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> other teams? Even if you beat them, that hardly calls for any honorary title to be bestowed. In well developed games like SC2, the competitive players are double and triple as good as the players who are merely considered "good". At the moment, in NS2, one would struggle to differentiate between what we call "competitive" and plain beta players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my experience with the ns2 community I have come to the concussion that the top tier of players (Arc,Exe,Nxzl,Inv,And more.....) deserve the title of *pro* or competitive. This game has a budding competitive scene, it is new and undeveloped. But this makes it none the less legitimate.
The Ns2 playtesters/competitive players/and other content contributors have spent countless hours on this game, out of the pure want of it to succeed. I urge you to lend your ear, because these guys really do know what there talking about!
-FYI this is not really directed at you Imbalanxd, you have spent more then enough time in and working on ns2 to have a developed point of view :)
<!--quoteo(post=2015039:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:37 PM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 7 2012, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to over-simplify NS2 or anything, but is it really that complicated and deep of a game where you have to invest hundreds of hours into it and play competitively to understand everything that's going on? You can make the argument that it is as a commander, but I'd have to balk on any other case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and no....... The RTS side of the game is currently semi undeveloped, I would like to see some things reworked. But this game has more depth already then something like CS:GO, and CS has every right to be played competitively.
<!--quoteo(post=2015039:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Hyperforms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyperforms @ Nov 7 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to over-simplify NS2 or anything, but is it really that complicated and deep of a game where you have to invest hundreds of hours into it and play competitively to understand everything that's going on? You can make the argument that it is as a commander, but I'd have to balk on any other case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not.
Do I think people who started playing on the release date have opinions as well crafted and informed as those with more experience? HELL NO. But once you put 20 hours into the game I think you've been playing long enough to know when something is clearly just wrong. Like the 6 minute Onos.. no one is having fun when that happens. The Onii aren't being challenged and have everything on ez-mode, the marines are basically ######, and everyone ends the game feeling unsatisfied. Honestly, I think that the first time that happens people probably know it's wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2015043:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:47 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 7 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes and no....... The RTS side of the game is currently semi undeveloped, I would like to see some things reworked. But this game has more depth already then something like CS:GO, and CS has every right to be played competitively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you don't have to play a single hour of CS to know about how to win (aim better)
<!--quoteo(post=2015047:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:50 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Nov 7 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you don't have to play a single hour of CS to know about how to win (aim better)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your 100% right, but do you want the learning curve not to make sense? IMO not knowing how to improve/what you did wrong is only a detriment to progression.
<!--quoteo(post=2014998:date=Nov 8 2012, 04:45 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 8 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's not a competitive player, he just likes to look up to them and aspire to be just like them. In fact, nobody in this community could be called "competitive" while still attributing any significant meaning to the term. Competitive eh? You played against like 4 other teams?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competitive NS2 the greatest challenge is finding another team to play. And getting playable fps obviously.
<!--quoteo(post=2014873:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:43 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Nov 7 2012, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Want to know how to counter early onos? Get out of base, I'm amazed at how many games marines literally sit in base building turrets and try to turtle their way out. And sadly it would work everytime if aliens didn't have an onos. The only way to beat the marine turtle is with an onos. It was a strategy developed to to stop the strongest marine strategy, but it's easily countered by aggressive marines. It takes 125 seconds to get an onos with 3 res towers. Aliens start with 50 res, of that they need 20 to drop the towers and probably about 15 to cyst to those towers. It also takes time for those harvesters to come up, roughly 45 seconds. If you kill the 2 harvesters that sets them back 6 minutes and 25 seconds.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of your comments in this thread have been at odds with the actual mechanics and the general consensus. I'll try to elaborate on what we (the plz fix onos drops crowd) are talking about.
We're not talking about onos beating turret spamming pubs. Instead, we're posting about how the onos is beating EVERYTHING except when marines are able to win before the onos comes out, or shortly there after, by a) killing a hive or b) killing a lot of RTs. Realistically, assuming relatively similar skill levels and execution, neither a) nor b) should be happening.
Also, you need a second hive to drop the onos egg. If aliens are losing 2/3 of their RTs in the first couple minutes, then I don't think this matters. If your answer to counter onos is basically "just win the game" then we're kind of talking past each other at this point.
<!--quoteo(post=2014998:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 8 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's not a competitive player, he just likes to look up to them and aspire to be just like them. In fact, nobody in this community could be called "competitive" while still attributing any significant meaning to the term. Competitive eh? You played against like 4 other teams? Even if you beat them, that hardly calls for any honorary title to be bestowed. In well developed games like SC2, the competitive players are double and triple as good as the players who are merely considered "good". At the moment, in NS2, one would struggle to differentiate between what we call "competitive" and plain beta players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pure gold
I'm hard pressed to remember anything you've said as hilarious (which isn't easy).
Comments
<ul><li>It removes gameplay diversity and early and midgame now revolves around early onos and countering early onos</li><li>Onos is the lowest skill lifeform in NS2 and does not promote high-skill play</li><li>Onos is intended to be a endgame unit and I'm sure that UWE never intended for NS2 to be a game where endgame units were consistently popping up in the first 5 minutes long before fades</li><li>There have been tons of complaints from players</li><li>There is a consensus in the competitive community that it is imbalanced</li></ul>I think the only question is when it is addressed. The other factor is that UWE will probably need to playtest before they nerf early onos because I actually feel that aliens are relying heavily on early onos to survive early game right now, and in its absence marines might dominate over aliens, therefore requiring boost to aliens or nerfs to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome post. :) So, as to the main question - When is this going to happen? - is there any way we can get an idea of when to expect it? Balance was a pretty much continuous issue in the beta, does anyone remember the usual response time for major balance patches? Clearly, it will be a bit different since this is not beta and they are not still working on game creation, but I would imagine that it would be similar...
Hmm...
(I already know someone's going to say Fades. Good luck with that strategy vs. shotguns.)
I guess the best thing would be to see every unit having an effective role, not over or understated. Fades right now are underwhelming, and early Onos is overwhelming. Fix both units and voila! I love the current implementation of Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges, so hopefully they are not changed.
I guess the best thing would be to see every unit having an effective role, not over or understated. Fades right now are underwhelming, and early Onos is overwhelming. Fix both units and voila! I love the current implementation of Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges, so hopefully they are not changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bit more reasonable. I've said in quite a few threads, as have many others, that moving the Exo to a third CC and splitting the marines upgrades between three CC's while raising the HP and/or damage of Fades as a reasonable change along with nerfing Onos to a third hive. I would actually prefer this outcome myself, since the outcry against the early Onos seems fairly overwelming whether I see an issue with it or not.
I would also like Spores and Umbra to be reversed in how they're deployed by the player (Fired vs. Crop Dusting), but that might just be me.
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.
It doesn't... but I never said it did. It was a counter point to "onos being risky"...
The game was won by the fact we only had 2 hives but were able to constantly spam Tres onos eggs all game.
So why don't you stop with your pathetic insulting attitude?
Onos drops are broken, the rest of the alien tech chart is also broken and the only reason we cant see it is that aliens win all of their games via Tres Onos spam.
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Want to know how to counter early onos? Get out of base, I'm amazed at how many games marines literally sit in base building turrets and try to turtle their way out. And sadly it would work everytime if aliens didn't have an onos. The only way to beat the marine turtle is with an onos. It was a strategy developed to to stop the strongest marine strategy, but it's easily countered by aggressive marines. It takes 125 seconds to get an onos with 3 res towers. Aliens start with 50 res, of that they need 20 to drop the towers and probably about 15 to cyst to those towers. It also takes time for those harvesters to come up, roughly 45 seconds. If you kill the 2 harvesters that sets them back 6 minutes and 25 seconds.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you are embracing:
<!--quoteo(post=2014725:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:44 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 8 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos or lose before Onos...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you really want this to be the entire future of NS2?
why are people comparing 1 onos to a group of upgraded marines? the comparison is 1 onos + 5 other alien units vs. 5 marines with some basic equipment and a commander
can marines even defend a 4th extractor that way? how many harvesters can aliens get by then? even if marines could counter effectively, transitioning from saving for onos to getting hive upgrades seems ridiculously easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are free and expendable costing no res an Onos costs 75. That's why people are comparing. You can lose 4 out of 5 of those marines and still come out a winner. A fast Onos rush requires good teamwork on the part of the Aliens because if you do it they will have had no other upgrades. No carpace, no leap. That puts the ordinary skulk at a significant disadvantage early on.
An Onos by itself won't last long against any pack of Marines. If the Aliens lose that Onos it's all over for them.
Yes but the same can be said with the Skulk vs Marine especially when they get their permanent upgrades. 1 skulk vs a w3/a3 Marine rarely wins if the Marines knows how to play. Normally instead you see two skulks attacking same time. That's 1 Marine tieing up 2 Alien players. Furthmore Aliens suck at holding territory, their sentry like things the Whips are junk and they have no beacon or phase gates to quickly beam around the map to defend where needed.
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
/rant
I see plenty of people are willing to testify that an early onos can be countered, so I do have doubts that the onos itself is overpowered, but there is probably also a good reason why so many new players don't like it, and I think this has to do with how the game is played overall.
So let me take a guess and start with a demonstration...
On one of my first games as human commander, I tried the 'turtling outward' tactic, expanding slowly and focusing on tech research and upgrades instead of expansion. Worried about leaving a bad impression as commander, I wanted to focus on getting defenses up and take care of my teammates with upgrades first instead of ordering them to death right from the get-go.
I was quickly punished for it. The aliens rushed outward and seized control of most of the map. It was only a few more minutes before they got an onos out. At the end of the game, I was harshly criticized for not expanding. I was at a total loss as to how all my caution was so worthless in the eyes of the enemy and my fellow team.
So next game as human com, I try to focus more on expansion first, and then built up once we had a good amount of map control. My team was good, and helped compensate for my amateur skills. The enemy team got pushed back again and again, and we only got more and more res. Once I broke out the double exos and jetpacks it was just a slaughter for them.
So based on that experience of mine, I think the game works soley on map control. Taking res nodes, and countering the enemy's attacks with your own is what wins. Caution and defense are generally not worthwhile, because you risk control to increase your defense. All tactical options, in some way, punish defensiveness and slowness; early onos is just one of the best tactics for punishing early defense.
If you aren't expanding and getting attack upgrades, you aren't winning.
Maybe that's how the game was meant to work, but at the same time, I can see how a lot of more cautious rts players like me can be a little frustrated at first when caution gets you punished. Rush tactics and attacking are the only thing worthwhile. Be it an early Onos, a resource grab, phase tech first, or whatever. Defensive tactics just don't work in this game. Even the powerful 'marines with GLs turtle' is bound to lose eventually as the enemy resource begins to trickle down.
So I wonder, should defense strategies not work in this game at all, and everything is just as planned? Or are legitimate moves being punished by overpowered rush tactics; like early Onos?
"I'm pretty bad at marines but.... this is how it should be balanced"
"I've never played a comp match but this is how you beat onos."
"I've never comm'd in my life but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to beat onos."
It's ######en hilarious.
Just shut up and don't post if you don't know what you're talking about :)
But then you've got even worse people like imbalanxed who is like king of the scrubs but doesn't know it trying to bring in his mega pub scrub knowledge to counter the real competitive players that actually have a clue.
Exactly, if you are aggressive you can actually beat an early onos strat. OMG what a revelation! It's no different than in any RTS actually, in SC if you try to sit in one spot and not expand you will lose. Supreme Commander, you have to get more than 1 set of resources. Same with Warcraft, it's all about keeping pressure while expanding. If I'm comm as aliens and the marines aren't leaving base, I'm getting every single res tower I can and rushing an onos. If the marines are pushing out early I have to rush a second hive and carapace and celerity.
Compared to the Beta things have gotten so easy on the alien comm it's ridiculous. Marines just need to play aggressively.
"I've never played a comp match but this is how you beat onos."
"I've never comm'd in my life but I can't imagine it'd be too hard to beat onos."
It's ######en hilarious.
Just shut up and don't post if you don't know what you're talking about :)
But then you've got even worse people like imbalanxed who is like king of the scrubs but doesn't know it trying to bring in his mega pub scrub knowledge to counter the real competitive players that actually have a clue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what's even more "######en" hilarious? (whatever curse has 8 letters and ends with 'en') A dude that has all of 24 posts and thinks that you need to be on a comp team to actually know how to play the game. I actually have a pretty good number of hours compared to some of the guys who play competitively, but I'm not on a team cause there just aren't many teams in USA right now. And really there isn't any centralized spot for people who want to get on teams, so really it's just like a secret club you don't get into unless you know someone. So please feel free to drop the stupid attitude.
Also it's not the comm that kills an onos it's the team, and yes, it's quite easy with 4 marines.
Even if it does still happen, onos needs to be in 3rd hive. I think exos should only be able to be dropped with tres on 3rd comm station aswell, despite the fact they're different in that it costs tres to research it and onos does not (apart from upgrades and stomp).
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
/rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on any balance issues right now, but do you think that comp players are the only ones that can have valid opinions? You guys aren't even playing the same game as the rest of us... we have up to twice as many players and less than half of the coordination. I know that you have to pay special attention to balancing the highest tier of play because balancing for less skilled play either lowers the skill ceiling or ###### up gameplay for the higher tier; but how many of the 144,000 people who own this game are comp players? I haven't done any research, but even if there are 1000 comp players (I really doubt there are much more than 100, if that), you guys are less than 1% of the community.
The attitude you have in the quoted post is what killed the T:A community and it'll kill this game too, it spreads like an infection and it's really naive to think you guys know best when most of us aren't playing the game under the comp format.
There are people on these forums with 5-7 years of top level ns1 experience / 6 months of competitive ns2 experience. Listen to them
/rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer to think for myself, thanks. You can follow them blindly if your brain hurts just contemplating it, nobody will judge.
<!--quoteo(post=2014996:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:43 AM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on any balance issues right now, but do you think that comp players are the only ones that can have valid opinions? You guys aren't even playing the same game as the rest of us... we have up to twice as many players and less than half of the coordination. I know that you have to pay special attention to balancing the highest tier of play because balancing for less skilled play either lowers the skill ceiling or ###### up gameplay for the higher tier; but how many of the 144,000 people who own this game are comp players? I haven't done any research, but even if there are 1000 comp players (I really doubt there are much more than 100, if that), you guys are less than 1% of the community.
The attitude you have in the quoted post is what killed the T:A community and it'll kill this game too, it spreads like an infection and it's really naive to think you guys know best when most of us aren't playing the game under the comp format.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not a competitive player, he just likes to look up to them and aspire to be just like them. In fact, nobody in this community could be called "competitive" while still attributing any significant meaning to the term. Competitive eh? You played against like 4 other teams? Even if you beat them, that hardly calls for any honorary title to be bestowed. In well developed games like SC2, the competitive players are double and triple as good as the players who are merely considered "good". At the moment, in NS2, one would struggle to differentiate between what we call "competitive" and plain beta players.
From my experience with the ns2 community I have come to the concussion that the top tier of players (Arc,Exe,Nxzl,Inv,And more.....) deserve the title of *pro* or competitive. This game has a budding competitive scene, it is new and undeveloped. But this makes it none the less legitimate.
The Ns2 playtesters/competitive players/and other content contributors have spent countless hours on this game, out of the pure want of it to succeed. I urge you to lend your ear, because these guys really do know what there talking about!
-FYI this is not really directed at you Imbalanxd, you have spent more then enough time in and working on ns2 to have a developed point of view :)
Yes and no....... The RTS side of the game is currently semi undeveloped, I would like to see some things reworked. But this game has more depth already then something like CS:GO, and CS has every right to be played competitively.
It's not.
Do I think people who started playing on the release date have opinions as well crafted and informed as those with more experience? HELL NO. But once you put 20 hours into the game I think you've been playing long enough to know when something is clearly just wrong. Like the 6 minute Onos.. no one is having fun when that happens. The Onii aren't being challenged and have everything on ez-mode, the marines are basically ######, and everyone ends the game feeling unsatisfied. Honestly, I think that the first time that happens people probably know it's wrong.
Well you don't have to play a single hour of CS to know about how to win (aim better)
Your 100% right, but do you want the learning curve not to make sense? IMO not knowing how to improve/what you did wrong is only a detriment to progression.
Anywho that's my 2 cents.
In competitive NS2 the greatest challenge is finding another team to play. And getting playable fps obviously.
So to sum up, stop trying to turtle and you won't lose to an early onos, turrets do not = victory. Getting out of base and putting the aliens on defense does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of your comments in this thread have been at odds with the actual mechanics and the general consensus. I'll try to elaborate on what we (the plz fix onos drops crowd) are talking about.
We're not talking about onos beating turret spamming pubs. Instead, we're posting about how the onos is beating EVERYTHING except when marines are able to win before the onos comes out, or shortly there after, by a) killing a hive or b) killing a lot of RTs. Realistically, assuming relatively similar skill levels and execution, neither a) nor b) should be happening.
Also, you need a second hive to drop the onos egg. If aliens are losing 2/3 of their RTs in the first couple minutes, then I don't think this matters. If your answer to counter onos is basically "just win the game" then we're kind of talking past each other at this point.
Pure gold
I'm hard pressed to remember anything you've said as hilarious (which isn't easy).