<!--quoteo(post=2015943:date=Nov 8 2012, 05:19 PM:name=Avs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avs @ Nov 8 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue is not buffs on armor or anything. Early onos is only because you dont have to spend 40 res researching a Alien prototype lab, and another 30 on Exos, and another 30 on Dual Exos. This is 100 resources required to get dual exos, compared to 0 resources required for Aliens to get Onos. Marines need cheaper stuff, or the whole resource system needs to be revisited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more than that. We're talking about tres onos drops mostly here anyway. So the onos are coming after a second hive (40 tres) and then 75 for the onos for a total of ~115.
The problem is that marines constantly use tres for medpacks/ammo. And they also typically have to research things like phase gates, mines, and shotguns to perform through the midgame. On top of that they need weapon and armor upgrades. An exosuit with no armor upgrades is complete trash where as an onos with no upgrades is still quite effective for when he comes out.
Marines absolutely do not need cheaper tech. The onos (an end game unit) simply needs to be pushed to the actual mid-end game instead of coming out at 6-10 minutes off 3 RTs.
<!--quoteo(post=2015741:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 8 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interest suddenly piqued. Salivating for 229. Any ideas of a timeline?
<!--quoteo(post=2015741:date=Nov 8 2012, 03:33 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 8 2012, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your thoughts on the idea of being able to convert tres into pres for every player? Would be player count independent then, wouldn't mess with timings in a dramatic way, but would be an effective way of making the endgame more powerful than the early or middle game, more people can afford more stuff more often.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's more than that. We're talking about tres onos drops mostly here anyway. So the onos are coming after a second hive (40 tres) and then 75 for the onos for a total of ~115.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. It's not zero cost, and it actually costs more as far as research unless you include the armslab buffs.
An Onos should not come out in six minutes and should be tied to a third hive, conversely marines upgrades should not be independent of command stations controlled and either exo's or jetpacks should be on a third command chair. Maybe give the marines an either/or choice at two CC, I think that would be interesting.
Also, T.Res to P.Res nerfs will unbalance things for the aliens far more than it would for the marines given that marines can already pick up their dropped weapons and have cheaper P.Res items overall. This means they don't need to drop P.Res items nearly as often as the aliens will unless the aliens simply never die. Things are already unbalanced as far as ways to manipulate T.Res and P.Res in the marines favor, any further changes in that arena will result in unrealistically high performance levels required of alien play to hold down enough P.Res to not be rendered moot by mid to late game.
Does anyone think a fade is equal to a one-gun Exo with equal skill, for that matter?
<!--quoteo(post=2016078:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:52 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 8 2012, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. It's not zero cost, and it actually costs more as far as research unless you include the armslab buffs.
An Onos should not come out in six minutes and should be tied of a third hive, conversely marines upgrades should not be independent of command stations controlled and either exo's or jetpacks should be on a third command chair. Maybe give the marines an either/or choice at two CC, I think that would be interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the 3rd hive idea.
iirc you currently need 2 hives to drop fade/onos, i don't think it would be too detrimental to the alien team if you needed 3 hives to drop the onos egg. it would certainly give marines a chance to get some tech out and opportunity to deny 3rd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2016084:date=Nov 8 2012, 06:00 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 8 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i like the 3rd hive idea.
iirc you currently need 2 hives to drop fade/onos, i don't think it would be too detrimental to the alien team if you needed 3 hives to drop the onos egg. it would certainly give marines a chance to get some tech out and opportunity to deny 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that it becomes exponentially harder to retake lost ground the longer the game goes. It's quite possible that doing this will cause a third hive/cc to be impossible to beat for the other team, but honestly when the aliens have four hives and the marines have one CC the upgrades just drag things out unnecessarily.
<!--quoteo(post=2015741:date=Nov 8 2012, 08:33 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 8 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is, if a comm can't spend 75 res on onos eggs he'll only spam something else like whips and crags. Though i would be happy with life form eggs costing 2x more than pres. It's just sad when a comm spams 2 onos eggs along with what ever players can evolve onos naturally. So i wouldn't say remove the feature as sometimes it's all that's needed to break a really annoying stale mate with tier 3 marines surviving off a base and a half.
Im new to NS in general, recently starting with natural selection 2 & i used to think everything seemed pretty balanced having killed a fair few onoses already.. but an incident that just happened 30mins ago has changed my mind on this exo vs onos situation.
Me and a friend both in duel wield exos in a completely open area were being followed by one onos, he was easily two corridors distance away, if you need a better example just think of landing pad from one end to the other kindve distance but perhaps a little further.
He charged right at us & we both just stood their and unloaded an entire clip from both guns (thats 4 miniguns total) in to him & even reloaded and got another entire round off into him yet he still kills both of us without any support from any other aliens... this is the first time such a thing has happened to me, either he was lagging or hacking because i cant think this type of balance was intended by the dev's.
My mech had about half health so this didnt really help me & my friends mechs health was full, also it was extremely late game and the aliens & humans already had every upgrade but theres no way this should be allowed.
An onos should only be able to kill an exo one on one if it gets him by suprise (E.g from round a corner straight into CQC), its just plain shenanigans that an onos does not have to fear an exo.
*Pointless rant about onoses that'l never be patched*
Exos don't have clips or reloads... do they? I thought they had unlimited ammo... if not my marine commanders have been exceptionally good with their ammo drops! XD
Me and two other marines took out an onos with W1 LMG's earlier, it wasn't even hard. I don't think the Onos needs a nerf, he just needs to come out later.
I get the feeling too many people in this thread haven't actually played as an onos.
Go play as one before you judge it. I agree it should come out later in the game, and in return the other Alien classes need to cost less and be more effective for a mid-game strategy.
As for the story about killing 2 exos, I admit that's sketchy. An onos can certainly wreck multiple exos if he's being supported by a gorge or lesser classes, but 1v2 and if the exos had a distance advantage (even with one at half health), you should have won. The onos is not that tough, you sure you didn't see a gorge or two hiding behind that onos mashing the heal skill?
And that's the last point I wanted to get to. Play an onos, take fire from multiple marines with W3 or exos, you will see while they can tank they are not that tough against groups, and marines need to drive the point home that if an onos runs DO NOT let it escape, trap it or chase it with jetpacks. If its wrecking your base, maybe everyone concentrates fire while one or two marines place mines all over the exit, then as the onos tries to make its escape it gets wrecked. Or start heading out to intercept the onos escape path.
<!--quoteo(post=2015741:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Nov 8 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in my opinion it would be best to completely get rid of that feature (dropping eggs or equipment)... team res was never supposed to be what it currently is (a source for early life forms). there should be other mechanics in place which could allow that (to a lesser degree).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There needs to be a link between personal res and team res; a tradeoff between tech, structures and lifeforms/equipment. If you get 0.125 pres/player and 1 tres each time the RT gathers res you are making part of that decision for players and strategic depth is lost. Well, if 1 tres == 0.125 pres/player, then you have a conversion rate, now go make them convertible(comm shouldn't be able to suck pres from players, but comm should be able to control whether to mine pres, tres or a bit of both with some suitably intuitive mechanism).
Right now, with creep/power node limitations on structures strategic depth is lost. With the extreme imbalance among alien lifeforms depth is lost, onos is the counter to everything, so don't get midgame tech, just save for onos. Imbalance among upgrade chambers, depth is lost. Dirt cheap cost of upgrades, depth is lost. The commander role is mostly just a managerial role, managing, informing and directing players, there are no interesting decisions in the tech tree or interesting trade-offs.
All the interesting decisions are of the nature of "Lets get a PG up here, I'll beacon you guys, get ready to run through and shoot the hive" or "forget sub, it's already lost, keep attacking xyz and do a base trade".
I'm finding all these onos threads amusing simply because I've never seen it work in any games I've been in. Heck the amount of oni I've seen that would die if the marines just chased it and shot it a bit more, but alas, once it runs away all the marines but one or two stop shooting it.
<!--quoteo(post=2016359:date=Nov 8 2012, 10:35 PM:name=BearTornado)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BearTornado @ Nov 8 2012, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get the feeling too many people in this thread haven't actually played as an onos.
Go play as one before you judge it. I agree it should come out later in the game, and in return the other Alien classes need to cost less and be more effective for a mid-game strategy.
As for the story about killing 2 exos, I admit that's sketchy. An onos can certainly wreck multiple exos if he's being supported by a gorge or lesser classes, but 1v2 and if the exos had a distance advantage (even with one at half health), you should have won. The onos is not that tough, you sure you didn't see a gorge or two hiding behind that onos mashing the heal skill?
And that's the last point I wanted to get to. Play an onos, take fire from multiple marines with W3 or exos, you will see while they can tank they are not that tough against groups, and marines need to drive the point home that if an onos runs DO NOT let it escape, trap it or chase it with jetpacks. If its wrecking your base, maybe everyone concentrates fire while one or two marines place mines all over the exit, then as the onos tries to make its escape it gets wrecked. Or start heading out to intercept the onos escape path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing about the Onos and the Exo is they need their teammates to be effective. If they're caught alone they'll pretty much both die rather fast.
BTW I've killed a dual minigun Exo as an Onos before in a 1v1 fight, neither of us had any form of support.
<!--quoteo(post=2016289:date=Nov 8 2012, 09:48 PM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos don't have clips or reloads... do they? I thought they had unlimited ammo... if not my marine commanders have been exceptionally good with their ammo drops! XD
Me and two other marines took out an onos with W1 LMG's earlier, it wasn't even hard. I don't think the Onos needs a nerf, he just needs to come out later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos have unlimited ammo, they just overheat.
But yeah they pretty much don't need a nerf, they just shouldn't be showing up at 6 minutes in.
Comments
It's more than that. We're talking about tres onos drops mostly here anyway. So the onos are coming after a second hive (40 tres) and then 75 for the onos for a total of ~115.
The problem is that marines constantly use tres for medpacks/ammo. And they also typically have to research things like phase gates, mines, and shotguns to perform through the midgame. On top of that they need weapon and armor upgrades. An exosuit with no armor upgrades is complete trash where as an onos with no upgrades is still quite effective for when he comes out.
Marines absolutely do not need cheaper tech. The onos (an end game unit) simply needs to be pushed to the actual mid-end game instead of coming out at 6-10 minutes off 3 RTs.
Interest suddenly piqued. Salivating for 229. Any ideas of a timeline?
Your thoughts on the idea of being able to convert tres into pres for every player? Would be player count independent then, wouldn't mess with timings in a dramatic way, but would be an effective way of making the endgame more powerful than the early or middle game, more people can afford more stuff more often.
This. It's not zero cost, and it actually costs more as far as research unless you include the armslab buffs.
An Onos should not come out in six minutes and should be tied to a third hive, conversely marines upgrades should not be independent of command stations controlled and either exo's or jetpacks should be on a third command chair. Maybe give the marines an either/or choice at two CC, I think that would be interesting.
Also, T.Res to P.Res nerfs will unbalance things for the aliens far more than it would for the marines given that marines can already pick up their dropped weapons and have cheaper P.Res items overall. This means they don't need to drop P.Res items nearly as often as the aliens will unless the aliens simply never die. Things are already unbalanced as far as ways to manipulate T.Res and P.Res in the marines favor, any further changes in that arena will result in unrealistically high performance levels required of alien play to hold down enough P.Res to not be rendered moot by mid to late game.
Does anyone think a fade is equal to a one-gun Exo with equal skill, for that matter?
An Onos should not come out in six minutes and should be tied of a third hive, conversely marines upgrades should not be independent of command stations controlled and either exo's or jetpacks should be on a third command chair. Maybe give the marines an either/or choice at two CC, I think that would be interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like the 3rd hive idea.
iirc you currently need 2 hives to drop fade/onos, i don't think it would be too detrimental to the alien team if you needed 3 hives to drop the onos egg. it would certainly give marines a chance to get some tech out and opportunity to deny 3rd hive.
iirc you currently need 2 hives to drop fade/onos, i don't think it would be too detrimental to the alien team if you needed 3 hives to drop the onos egg. it would certainly give marines a chance to get some tech out and opportunity to deny 3rd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that it becomes exponentially harder to retake lost ground the longer the game goes. It's quite possible that doing this will cause a third hive/cc to be impossible to beat for the other team, but honestly when the aliens have four hives and the marines have one CC the upgrades just drag things out unnecessarily.
The trouble is, if a comm can't spend 75 res on onos eggs he'll only spam something else like whips and crags. Though i would be happy with life form eggs costing 2x more than pres. It's just sad when a comm spams 2 onos eggs along with what ever players can evolve onos naturally. So i wouldn't say remove the feature as sometimes it's all that's needed to break a really annoying stale mate with tier 3 marines surviving off a base and a half.
Me and a friend both in duel wield exos in a completely open area were being followed by one onos, he was easily two corridors distance away, if you need a better example just think of landing pad from one end to the other kindve distance but perhaps a little further.
He charged right at us & we both just stood their and unloaded an entire clip from both guns (thats 4 miniguns total) in to him & even reloaded and got another entire round off into him yet he still kills both of us without any support from any other aliens... this is the first time such a thing has happened to me, either he was lagging or hacking because i cant think this type of balance was intended by the dev's.
My mech had about half health so this didnt really help me & my friends mechs health was full, also it was extremely late game and the aliens & humans already had every upgrade but theres no way this should be allowed.
An onos should only be able to kill an exo one on one if it gets him by suprise (E.g from round a corner straight into CQC), its just plain shenanigans that an onos does not have to fear an exo.
*Pointless rant about onoses that'l never be patched*
Me and two other marines took out an onos with W1 LMG's earlier, it wasn't even hard. I don't think the Onos needs a nerf, he just needs to come out later.
Go play as one before you judge it. I agree it should come out later in the game, and in return the other Alien classes need to cost less and be more effective for a mid-game strategy.
As for the story about killing 2 exos, I admit that's sketchy. An onos can certainly wreck multiple exos if he's being supported by a gorge or lesser classes, but 1v2 and if the exos had a distance advantage (even with one at half health), you should have won. The onos is not that tough, you sure you didn't see a gorge or two hiding behind that onos mashing the heal skill?
And that's the last point I wanted to get to. Play an onos, take fire from multiple marines with W3 or exos, you will see while they can tank they are not that tough against groups, and marines need to drive the point home that if an onos runs DO NOT let it escape, trap it or chase it with jetpacks. If its wrecking your base, maybe everyone concentrates fire while one or two marines place mines all over the exit, then as the onos tries to make its escape it gets wrecked. Or start heading out to intercept the onos escape path.
There needs to be a link between personal res and team res; a tradeoff between tech, structures and lifeforms/equipment. If you get 0.125 pres/player and 1 tres each time the RT gathers res you are making part of that decision for players and strategic depth is lost. Well, if 1 tres == 0.125 pres/player, then you have a conversion rate, now go make them convertible(comm shouldn't be able to suck pres from players, but comm should be able to control whether to mine pres, tres or a bit of both with some suitably intuitive mechanism).
Right now, with creep/power node limitations on structures strategic depth is lost. With the extreme imbalance among alien lifeforms depth is lost, onos is the counter to everything, so don't get midgame tech, just save for onos. Imbalance among upgrade chambers, depth is lost. Dirt cheap cost of upgrades, depth is lost. The commander role is mostly just a managerial role, managing, informing and directing players, there are no interesting decisions in the tech tree or interesting trade-offs.
All the interesting decisions are of the nature of "Lets get a PG up here, I'll beacon you guys, get ready to run through and shoot the hive" or "forget sub, it's already lost, keep attacking xyz and do a base trade".
Go play as one before you judge it. I agree it should come out later in the game, and in return the other Alien classes need to cost less and be more effective for a mid-game strategy.
As for the story about killing 2 exos, I admit that's sketchy. An onos can certainly wreck multiple exos if he's being supported by a gorge or lesser classes, but 1v2 and if the exos had a distance advantage (even with one at half health), you should have won. The onos is not that tough, you sure you didn't see a gorge or two hiding behind that onos mashing the heal skill?
And that's the last point I wanted to get to. Play an onos, take fire from multiple marines with W3 or exos, you will see while they can tank they are not that tough against groups, and marines need to drive the point home that if an onos runs DO NOT let it escape, trap it or chase it with jetpacks. If its wrecking your base, maybe everyone concentrates fire while one or two marines place mines all over the exit, then as the onos tries to make its escape it gets wrecked. Or start heading out to intercept the onos escape path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing about the Onos and the Exo is they need their teammates to be effective. If they're caught alone they'll pretty much both die rather fast.
BTW I've killed a dual minigun Exo as an Onos before in a 1v1 fight, neither of us had any form of support.
<!--quoteo(post=2016289:date=Nov 8 2012, 09:48 PM:name=hate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hate @ Nov 8 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016289"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exos don't have clips or reloads... do they? I thought they had unlimited ammo... if not my marine commanders have been exceptionally good with their ammo drops! XD
Me and two other marines took out an onos with W1 LMG's earlier, it wasn't even hard. I don't think the Onos needs a nerf, he just needs to come out later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exos have unlimited ammo, they just overheat.
But yeah they pretty much don't need a nerf, they just shouldn't be showing up at 6 minutes in.