Cpu Usage?
kalleth
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2574Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2574Members
<div class="IPBDescription">how much more "optimisation?"</div> Not being able to run more than one NS server on a hi-spec machine (i.e. blueyonder servers 2 and 3) without pings being seriously affected on both of them rips the **obscenity** just a little bit.
For example -- why are GSP's going to put up servers for clans when they can only run one on one server? meaning that from a box they could be making (at £50pcm for a server) about £400 instead they'd just be making 50. Doesnt make sense. On the same side of the coin public servers from GSP's like jolt, burstfire and blueyonder won't get the support because of the mass CPU usage.
An example - a few days ago Blueyonder added another NS server - these are hi-spec boxes, so i'm informed - and so two are running off one box, with one still having its own. (total of three servers.) Because NS is so heavy on CPU usage, tonight, pings skyrocketed on both the servers on the same machine - 200, 300 easy.
To put things in perspective, after speaking with the <a href='http://www.burstfire.net' target='_blank'>Burstfire.net</a> CEO, maxeh, they're running two servers off a dual 2.7ghz proc box (or so is my information) - and thats all that runs off it. These are only 14 and 16 player servers, and the only way they've managed to get them running without seriously affecting pings on the other server is by dedicating an <b>entire</b> cpu to that process, as half-life doesnt support multithreading (dont think so anyway.)
These ping rises destroy the game for marines - whearas alien attacks are mostly close range to melee, marines cannot shoot accurately with a ping above 250 - its just not feasible. Aliens get an immeasurable advantage.
Anyway, my question is this. I know NS _will always_ use more CPU time than another mod; it has alot to process, but how much more optimisation of the code are we going to see? Is the situation going to get any better or are we going to be stuck with few servers because the clan server providers dont consider it economically viable to provide them for clans apart from at great cost? Or with no servers at all because GSP's can't afford to dedicate an entire box to one or two servers?
Yours 'hopefully'
Kalleth.
For example -- why are GSP's going to put up servers for clans when they can only run one on one server? meaning that from a box they could be making (at £50pcm for a server) about £400 instead they'd just be making 50. Doesnt make sense. On the same side of the coin public servers from GSP's like jolt, burstfire and blueyonder won't get the support because of the mass CPU usage.
An example - a few days ago Blueyonder added another NS server - these are hi-spec boxes, so i'm informed - and so two are running off one box, with one still having its own. (total of three servers.) Because NS is so heavy on CPU usage, tonight, pings skyrocketed on both the servers on the same machine - 200, 300 easy.
To put things in perspective, after speaking with the <a href='http://www.burstfire.net' target='_blank'>Burstfire.net</a> CEO, maxeh, they're running two servers off a dual 2.7ghz proc box (or so is my information) - and thats all that runs off it. These are only 14 and 16 player servers, and the only way they've managed to get them running without seriously affecting pings on the other server is by dedicating an <b>entire</b> cpu to that process, as half-life doesnt support multithreading (dont think so anyway.)
These ping rises destroy the game for marines - whearas alien attacks are mostly close range to melee, marines cannot shoot accurately with a ping above 250 - its just not feasible. Aliens get an immeasurable advantage.
Anyway, my question is this. I know NS _will always_ use more CPU time than another mod; it has alot to process, but how much more optimisation of the code are we going to see? Is the situation going to get any better or are we going to be stuck with few servers because the clan server providers dont consider it economically viable to provide them for clans apart from at great cost? Or with no servers at all because GSP's can't afford to dedicate an entire box to one or two servers?
Yours 'hopefully'
Kalleth.
Comments
1) I will be amazed if you get any type of a "offical" answer. As sinces its release the linux community has been asking for server optimization. Since it seems obvious to me that that is what burstfire is useing. And I have yet to see anyone on the dev team respond to any of the many posts asking or complaining about linux cpu optimization.
2) As stated in 1, The linux server code is garbage. Not only is it not optimized at all. But it suffers from massive bugs and glitches. Lack of motion tracking being the biggest, just to name one. And I have yet to see any official responce to if/when they are going to address the problems. The only "unofficial" answer I seen in a post, stated that the hole reason the linux codes are so useless, is the dev teams lack of useing updated SDK's and out of date glibc libs. With the responce of no idea on when they will use current SDK's and libs to fix the problem.
Personally I'm hopeing to see something in the 1.04 patch, before i have to set this mod aside, until such a time its worth running. They did a great job for a beta1 release mind you. But lacking any hopes of a near fix to the differance in windows and linux bugs and optimization, leads me to think linux is to low a priority in thier books to bother working on. So heres hopeing for some type of offical responce or answer to the question thats been asked a million times. When will we see fixxes and cpu optimization for linux? To at least bring it onto the same level you've done with winblows.
PS. Altough I run a private server, and I am not concerend with renting it or dedicateing one cpu to the task. I am sick of seeing a 2 gig cpu maxxed out and giveing crappy pings on large maps, with a game engine thats 4+ years old, useing a dedicated server, that doesnt run any gui's at all. And that can only hold a max of 16 players. More so when its a dual cpu system, and thats all the proccessor has todo is run ns.
meaning that if hera was optimised, you could run four servers (about) without seriously affecting the others. That is still a major improvement.
AFAIK Burstfire uses FreeBSD - but the OS's are almost identical HLDS wise. If the team can get the cpu usage down to 20-30% on a 1.5, i'm sure that will allow alot more GSP's to offer packages server-wise.
[edit, changed values. i **obscenity** up, soz :E]
The linux server code is identical to the win32 code in every way. There is no difference in codepath, it's merely the difference between the compiler and the OS. I will continue to work on server performance for both sides, and will probably take the time to switch to a new compiler (which will take a fair amount of effort).
Try running a BF1942 or UT23k server and see how you like that CPU. Please try to be more constructive in the future.
I guess you could look at it in a good way Flayra, people like NS so much that they act like little school girls with skinned knees because of the little things.
I put up a server, the only game running on it, and I rarely play it, that is how good I think the games is. That may not seem to make sense, liking a game so much that you put up a server, but don't play it. Confused myself on that one.
Anyway, great mod, keep up the good work and have a merry X-Mas.
We are runing in Brazil a NS 1.03 server in a dedicated 1.4ghz Athlon box with 768mb ram using w2k.
But with 20 player it consumes 80%-90% of cpu, note its one server only <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I wold like to have a 32 players server without any hardware upgrade <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh, and keep up the good work team, this mod is great (cs for me is over haha)
The linux server code is identical to the win32 code in every way. There is no difference in codepath, it's merely the difference between the compiler and the OS. I will continue to work on server performance for both sides, and will probably take the time to switch to a new compiler (which will take a fair amount of effort).
Try running a BF1942 or UT23k server and see how you like that CPU. Please try to be more constructive in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes! you are working more on server optimization for both sides. Thats great
The linux server code is identical to the win32 code in every way. There is no difference in codepath, it's merely the difference between the compiler and the OS. I will continue to work on server performance for both sides, and will probably take the time to switch to a new compiler (which will take a fair amount of effort).
Try running a BF1942 or UT23k server and see how you like that CPU. Please try to be more constructive in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well sorry you're takeing offence to the obvious. My post was in no way degrading, nor was it insulting. Just a statement of my opions. And yes I've been running NS since the 1.00 release. And 1.02 might have helped the windows servers. But has been stated many times in many posts since then, It did nothing for the linux server. And if the codes where the exact same, then why all the bugs in linux that windows doesn't suffer? Like lack of motion tracking, weldables starting off done on maps etc. I never see these bugs on windows servers. And I think it was, and is a fair and valid statement to say the linux server has had no optimizations done to it. Or at least any that have helped.
So exaclty what is so offensive to you about the post? The fact that I mentioned them, or the fact that I said you guys never respond to these posts? If you havent noticed, there is more then quite a few threads in this forum stateing how bad the linux optimization is. And I might point out I actually went to the trouble of deffending you guys in most of them. And if you find my post offensive, them maybe its for the best you havent read the other posts on the subject. But all the same, it was't meant to insult you or the game. Just simply stateing the impression I've gotten from you guys about the optimization problem with linux.
Now I could see you takeing offence if I had just ragged on the game. And did nothing but complain. But what I stated was the simple truth. And if you had of at least reply'd or given some indication over the last 3-4 weeks(since 1.02 created such a differance in cpu utilization levels between windows(20-40%cpu) and linux(75-100%cpu), When the initial release had them running the same) about the optimization differances, then I wouldent have any reasons to think its such a low priority to you guys. But its interesting to see your first responce to such a question. And perhaps deep down I am starting to feel bitter about linux being left out in the cold, with no word on anything being done. And perhaps that idea is changeing my tone that is slipping into my posts. But after trying tobe constructive about it since 1.02. With no responce from any offical source. Not to mention every week has a new thread complaing about it. I finally have given up. Just to see the first offical responce saying they find it offensive.
Well if you find it offensive then I'm sorry. Its Christmass after all. Forget about ns for a few days and enjoy some time with your friends and family.
I don't know what planet you're from
<!--QuoteBegin--[Ht]Nickoli+Dec 22 2002, 07:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([Ht]Nickoli @ Dec 22 2002, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The linux server code is garbage. Not only is it not optimized at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but I'm from planet Earth, and that statement is insulting. Have you seen the code? You're verbally trashing something you haven't the slightest clue about. Doesn't sound like you've even considered that hlds, etc. could behave differently under Linux. Have you ever developed an application for multiple platforms (compiled, and Java's bytecode doesn't count)? Have you developed software at all? You seem to have no appreciation for the complexity of programming, especially multi-platform.
I write software as part of my job and as a hobby. Flayra, I believe I speak for every coder out there when I commend you for this wonderful mod. I was shocked by the high quality of the first public release. Technical achievements aside, NS is also pretty darn fun. Many thanks for the countless hours you've spent bringing this game to us. Must feel good that the majority of the complaints are balance-related (can't ever please all the users).
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(lest they think they're forgotten, my thanks to the rest of the NS team as well)
"1) I will be amazed if you get any type of a "offical" answer. "
"2) As stated in 1, The linux server code is garbage. Not only is it not optimized at all. But it suffers from massive bugs and glitches."
If there's one thing I've learned from NS it's that people are never happy. It doesn't matter if you change stuff or don't change stuff, people just complain constantly. Maybe I have to stop reading the forums or something.
that's how everything works when it deals with the general public. When I put up my first cstrike server, people were happy for about a week. Then the complaints about how much it sucked started pouring in (even though it was full almost 24/7) .
So I dedicated large portions of my time over the course of a year in writing adminmod scripts and such to keep it running smoothly.....still got complaints...still full 24/7
Another year goes by, and my clan gets a second server going with a slightly different setup, still getting complaints. So I try other games, quake3 running freezetag, tribes2 running aerial dogfight. No matter what I did people were never happy.
So, long story short, don't let stupid people get on your nerves. Just develop it any way you feel is right.
As for optimizatons, don't be afraid to get outside consultation from other coders who like to tinker with things (*wink* *wink*, *nudge* *nudge*). If there's one thing I've learned from the DigiPen Institute of Technology (a game programming school in redmond, washington) it's that every time you've done something the best way possible, someone comes along with a slightly better solution.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.”
-- Abraham Lincoln
Substitute "please" for "fool".
s/fool/please/ for those who grok Perl, but have trouble with English <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
im a staff in on of the bigest community in Brazil, our forum have more them 20k users, and always have the 10-20 users with jerk posts, ignore them... if they insist BAN HIM.
and again Flayra, dont leave the forum, this communication tool is great to help you and the team. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
regards and Merry Chrismas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I love this mod and I like running a server that is packed 24/7. I've spent the time and energy to make what I think is a killer server with a good enviroment. I run a linux server and have seen the linux only bugs and the not so great performance on linux.. I don't like bugs or the performance, but I deal with them .. and so does every person on the server. If you view that as anything other than a compliment.. DON'T. What I'm saying is even with the bugs ppl still can't pull themselves away one of the most addictive and best playing games I've ever seen. Would I love to see the same levels of optimization on linux that I do on windows? Heck yes! But the only reason I want that is so I can run more than one NS server on my box. I could do that now but my ping times would start jumping above 200.. don't won't that!! Keep up the killer work!! Once again.. if I can help the NS team, just let me know.
Someone else I can whine at about file consistency!
The linux server code is identical to the win32 code in every way. There is no difference in codepath, it's merely the difference between the compiler and the OS. I will continue to work on server performance for both sides, and will probably take the time to switch to a new compiler (which will take a fair amount of effort).
Try running a BF1942 or UT23k server and see how you like that CPU. Please try to be more constructive in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about your lib ver? gcc --version? Static or dynamic linking? I'm just curious have you tried gcc <b>-O3</b> -o file.so ns.cpp ??
If you need any linux help please don't be afraid to ask any of us guru's. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> Windows
Be careful with optimisation levels above '-O'. Very little is usually gained, and broken results are common.
Again, i am sure any and all the linux guru admins would be more than happy to help you with the linux compilation in anyway possible.
this is a great mod with great potential.
New compiler maybe means using gcc 3.2.x instead of 2.95.x or the intel Linux C++ compiler (wich is free for non-commercial use). Maybe some specific CPU targets (p3, p4, athlon) can improve the performance. I don't now if this will solve drastically the CPU usage problem, but is worth to try it.
I think Flayra has more optimizations in mind apart from compiler ones but this can break client/server code hence they are intended for NS 1.1
New compiler maybe means using gcc 3.2.x instead of 2.95.x or the intel Linux C++ compiler (wich is free for non-commercial use). Maybe some specific CPU targets (p3, p4, athlon) can improve the performance. I don't now if this will solve drastically the CPU usage problem, but is worth to try it.
I think Flayra has more optimizations in mind apart from compiler ones but this can break client/server code hence they are intended for NS 1.1<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think a c++ compiler might take 5-10 (hell, even 20) ms off linux pings.....but i'm not sure about it. My guess he flaya is using a updated Vc++ compiler for windows...right? should be the same for linux IMO.
Try running a NS server.....
You get the same thing over and over and over and over again.....
You r0x0r!!!
Mod runs fine. Get some real hardware.
Play nice.</span>
Try running a BF1942 or UT23k server and see how you like that CPU. Please try to be more constructive in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can take all the offense you want; the fact of the matter is HE'S CORRECT.
If you don't fix those issues soon; your mod will die. But that's your choice, not ours. We enjoy running what you have so far, but the lame excuse of getting a big box is absurd.
I have been asking you to fix these issues for over a month now, and yes we've run your mods since 1.02 or earlier probally.
Exactly what does ANY OTHER software have to do with your code? NADA
Contructive comments have been made; I speak for myself, and no one else, but I'm very disappointed in your reponse time. I'm hoping to be constructive with my comments. However, like beauty; it's in the eyes of the beholder.
always, ALWAYS respect flay's work, it's not perfect, it's getting better but atleast its better than bf1942's, hell a 64 player server costs OVER 700 DOLLARS a month!
duh? thats alot of ppl and alot of bandwidth.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You can take all the offense you want; the fact of the matter is HE'S CORRECT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would have to agree also as far as linux goes. you are a doze programmer and just leaving the linux server to rust in the closet. update your libs and gcc, then recompile....*BING* linux is now up-to-par with your doze programming.
once he hits beta 2 alot of the major bugs will be hammored out and updates can come slower. but if it appears to the server ops that he isn't supporting his mod, then ppl won't run it. For example, there are only like 50 firearms servers now. And only 6 Earth Special Forces servers. because the updates were just too slow and the bugs were just ever lingering. (i think Esf is a new mod...slow to catch on).
may i remind you that some ppl work on christmas day to get things done. Not everyone has the luxury of "taking it easy". If my boss worked on christmas day and needed me to, i just might if it was worthwhile (not talking about $).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can ASSUME that flayra is doing everything he can to improve performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how? he doesn't ever say anything to anyone. He's like a groundhog...you know...only comes out to see his shadow once a year? LOL (that was not a personal attack btw). We can't assume anything because he doesn't give us any info to begin to assume. just a thought....