Power nodes at Tech Points
current1yold
Join Date: 2012-09-10 Member: 158911Members
Join Date: 2012-09-10 Member: 158911Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Do you like them as they are?</div>I am ONLY talking about the power node system at tech points..
I can understand it really helps to break turtles to an already won game as aliens. I also understand it adds another way to turn the tables which is never a bad thing. As it stands I feel it way too easy to be sneaky and gorge/onos rush a occupied base to take out power while marines are busy doing something else. The power nodes for bases are far to weak and easy to take out. I don't comm but from what I understand they don't give you the same warning as attacking other things at base?!
I personally like the power node system in general but I hate how fragile they are when talking about the ones only at tech points. I wouldn't want to loose them from Tech Points but I feel they should be 1.5 times to 2.5 times the health and simply take longer to weld (note: not build) then the current ones. This would encourage more teamwork from the alien side. You'll see stuff like onos, fades kill the players, while the 1 or two gorges kill the power, phase, ip, beacon/whatever more often.The current power node fragility at tech points just dumbs the game down a bit too much as far as strategy goes. Personally as a Player I find it way more exciting taking down phase gates, beacons, IPs...ect to get control of a base instead of doing hit and run attacks at the power node while the whole marine base sits back and fires at you.
So my question is do you like the power node system for tech point locations the way it is? Why or why not?
<a href="http://goo.gl/mod/DZu5" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/DZu5</a> - vote on it!
I can understand it really helps to break turtles to an already won game as aliens. I also understand it adds another way to turn the tables which is never a bad thing. As it stands I feel it way too easy to be sneaky and gorge/onos rush a occupied base to take out power while marines are busy doing something else. The power nodes for bases are far to weak and easy to take out. I don't comm but from what I understand they don't give you the same warning as attacking other things at base?!
I personally like the power node system in general but I hate how fragile they are when talking about the ones only at tech points. I wouldn't want to loose them from Tech Points but I feel they should be 1.5 times to 2.5 times the health and simply take longer to weld (note: not build) then the current ones. This would encourage more teamwork from the alien side. You'll see stuff like onos, fades kill the players, while the 1 or two gorges kill the power, phase, ip, beacon/whatever more often.The current power node fragility at tech points just dumbs the game down a bit too much as far as strategy goes. Personally as a Player I find it way more exciting taking down phase gates, beacons, IPs...ect to get control of a base instead of doing hit and run attacks at the power node while the whole marine base sits back and fires at you.
So my question is do you like the power node system for tech point locations the way it is? Why or why not?
<a href="http://goo.gl/mod/DZu5" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/mod/DZu5</a> - vote on it!
Comments
I know this is unlikely to change, but I've never been a fan of the power node system. It doesn't feel like it contributes much of substance to the game. I always thought it would be better if structures were self-powered like in NS1, and the nifty lighting effects could be tied to Extractor instead.
1 possible solution (which I proposed) is to simply increase TP power health so it doesn't become a insta win button. I think you'll see less "HULK.....SMASH" game play and more teamwork due to this hp increase.
Hell perhaps simply giving a huge warning to comms saying base power under attack or showing them the HP constantly so they can react appropriately and leave the HP alone?
If you remove it like you mentioned I'm curious as to your reasoning for decreasing structure HP? is it to prevent turtling?
I don't know if any one else has noticed but I've noticed more and more players going for IPs and other base structures first to weaken them a bit before all charging in to end it via killing IPS and CC. I've seen more of that in the past week then I did in all of november.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes health, build time, etc. were changed a lot during the beta and always brought problems, in the current state they can mainly be ignored once built. This is probably for the best, as they have minimal negative impact on the game. The thing is power nodes are bad game play wise, you don't want to make them more relevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->power nodes are pointless, there are like 13 powernodes in summit ... yet only 1 really matters and that is the one in marine spawn.
They are free for marines to rebuild, aliens have no incentive to destroy them, infact they are a time sink for aliens to destroy, and they leave you vulnerable when you are chomping them down because you are usually a sitting duck facing a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Mar 23 2012, 07:26 AM)
But the power nodes add complexity and tactical possibilities
Wrong, it restricts them. The additional choice of what to bite down is far outweighed by the limitations it imposes on structure placement variety. It forces rooms to become points-of-interest by virtue of the fact that there's a power node there, not by virtue of it's map geometry, positional importance or anything like that. It's an additional and oppressive rule that we have to follow just for some crappy light effects (which I happen to also dislike and empirical data agrees; light maps are popular maps).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does it make attacking and defending a stronghold more complex/interesting? It turns what was an interesting decision about what to chomp down into a total no-brainer. It's not true that the chair would always be the primary target without power. In actual fact, the aliens have to make a choice about whether to go for the temporary arms lab, the obs to stop reinforcement, the ips to stop spawning, the proto to stop jetpacks and so on. It's a far more interesting decision without the win-button, if you ask me. In NS1, there is still no consensus about what should be chomped first and its always dependent on the situation. That tells a story.
The fallacy is that an extra option (the power) leads to more choice/complexity/interest. In reality, if that option is overwhelmingly superior, the level of choice plummets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power system defenitly does not add any value to the game in its current state. I think its doing more harm than good. Currently its only needed as a free turretfactory for turrets, aliens can pick out turret farms by taking out the powernode(similar to the turretfactory in ns1).
But it prevents relocations, restricts marine gameplay and buldings placements, creates a ridiculous weakpoint in the marine start that can cause marines to instant lose a game and forces marines to build 2 structures in every single room(rt + power node).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes are problematic for several reasons, the main ones imo :
1) Regions that are under the control of power nodes are defined by a box in the map. There is all kind of problems at the boundary of two boxes, because it is unclear which power node is powering the area, if any. This also constrain severely map design, phase gate placement and creativity in general. It also lead to multiplication of power nodes.
This is a fundamental problem with power nodes, and cannot be solved without changing completely the way they work.
2) Power nodes accumulate a lot of different function. Light switch, turret factory and "win button" in marine base, etc. These different functions require mutually exclusive balance; for example to work well as a turret factory (being able to disable turrets in a turret spammed area) the power node need to have relatively low hp. But then the "win button" in marine base become problematic.
Worse, some of the functions are bad. A weak point in turret spamed area is desirable but the utility of a win button in marine base is disputable, and power nodes close to RTs are useless at best.
A solution is to split the power node in their different function. Droppable lights by the commander, power packs as turret factory, big red win button in marine base, etc. So they can be balanced separately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for atmosphere and immersion I think the red lights looks really bad, mappers spent large amounts of time tweaking the lighting, anybody who did a bit of visual arts knows lighting is so critical. I do like the pitch black phase, but I think buildable lights that the commander can drop anywhere would be far superior in terms of immersion and map interaction, and would allow mappers to have dark areas on the map, since it can countered.
About gameplay options, they actually remove options for phase gate placement and forward, because it's problematic to build far from the power node. Taking into account the map flow, vents and geometry is much more interesting that just looking at the distance to the power node.
They do add one option when attacking marine base, but there is already many options there (attacking obs, ips, cc, ...) so their contribution is not very significant in this regard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Power nodes don't add any sort of depth, if at all they influence a static experience.
As Yuuki said, obscure power node boundaries that are restrictive in nature only subtract from the game. Power packs are not a solution here. Building a sneaky phase gate is fun, not getting the phase gate up because of a power pack isn't.
Watching new players fumble around with the power mechanics should clue you up enough to see how unintuitive it is, and the light show isn't worth the confusion. Heck, the constant stream of changes related to power nodes should be an even better indicator.
They won't be going anywhere in the vanilla game though, fairly sure that points been made clearly.<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My idea I posted awhile ago is to relegate power nodes to only lights. It keeps the "Coolness" factor and drops the problematic game mechanics.
If you did this, they'd need to be a lot more fragile. Also, I would get rid of emergency lights as well, make the dark meaningful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Apparently there is only suppose to be 1 symmetrical feature in this game and that is the commanders ... yet for some reason the devs thought that infestation needed a symmetrical counterpart aka. the powernode system.
What is the purpose of powernodes anyway ?
Dynamic lighting ? Infestation could have easily been tied to this feature, just turn the lights off where ever infestation is.
Prevent marines from building where aliens control ? Marines already have to destroy infestation in order to build
Give aliens a weak spot to take out entrenched positions ? Sentries are already so weak that they no longer require a weak point
Im constantly seeing people attack powernodes rather than a phase gate, powernodes instead of infantry portals, powernodes instead of res towers .... how is this strategic play ? its moronic play. That powernode gives the marine comm time to see whats going on and then recycle that res tower, that powernode makes you a sitting duck on the wall, that powernode is taking away DPS which would otherwise be on that phasegate.
i dont even waste my time with powernodes anymore, the time spent killing one is time lost killing RT's/marines. I dont even bother with the powernode in marine base anymore either, i rather go after the IP's<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 6 2012, 04:14 AM)
As such, I think its a totally valid way to incorporate a core RTS concept (territory control) in a manner that minimally impacts the FPS portion of the game.
I don't know where you get this idea that this kind of mechanics are core concept is RTS, sc:bw (still the most successful RTS) doesn't have any of this and sc2 creep brings all kind of problems, very similar to the ones NS2 has (had?) with infestation.
Units give you map control in starcraft. Muta give you map control in ZvT, bio or vultures/mines gives you map control in TvZ, dragoons in TvP. Threatening a counter attack, and generally having your units in a smart position on the map gives you map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like to think of power nodes as map entities.
Remember in many games, you often add some entities (buttons, blocks, ...) that you can use, weld, or destroy and that would trigger some events on the map, like a door opening, something exploding, or whatever.
Power nodes are like that, but obligatory and all over the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an interesting idea. Maybe them shut off diff types of buildings? Might be hard to balance but an interesting thought up front.
One of the most satisfying things in this game is for aliens to pull off a comeback (and possibly a win) by ganking the power node when marines are clearly dominating them. Do avoid taking away a come-from-behind-victory mechanic.
One of the most satisfying things in this game is for aliens to pull off a comeback (and possibly a win) by ganking the power node when marines are clearly dominating them. Do avoid taking away a come-from-behind-victory mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a problem with a come-from-behind-victory mechanic that hinges so heavily on the performance of a single player. You know how disheartening it is to be a marine on the team that loses that way?
I think there are several solutions:
1) simply remove power nodes from tech points. What is so wrong about aliens having to destroy the PG/Obs in order to conquer a hive location?
In fact I think the fact that aliens don't even bother attacking the PG/Obs in a hive but only go for the Power node significantly dumbs down the overall gameplay options.
With the power node in play there really is no apparent reason to have more than one (yes, one) building for marines. That means if you could upgrade the command post to function as a PG,Obs,Armory, Proto lab etc. it would not change the game one single bit. Why?
Aliens still would just kill the power node and take care of the remaining building(s) later.
Again: Power nodes make any (defensive) buildings in Hive locations absurdly obsolete. It dows not matter if a PG hat 5000 or 10000 HP, just kill the power node.
2) A more "soft" solution could be to implement an emergency energy supply for Hive locations. This could mean that power goes out e.g. 30 sec after the node was destroyed (of course there would be an altert to all marines)
Or there could be an emergency energy threshold. This means, hive locations would have e.g. 5000 "Energy" remaining, wich would be used up by PG and Obs. So this 5000 "Energy" could be enough for 12 PG uses to and from the location or 1 Beacon.
3) Increase power node HP for Hive locations. If this solution is applied, I think the general goal should be to make it more attractive to aliens to destroy the actual PF and Obs than to destroy the Power node.
Two general statements:
1. I think for the rest of the map the current Power node system works just fine and actually really adds to the gameplay
2. For me it is by far the most ######ed up, not fun at all way loose, if during a somewhat even game 1 onos and 2 gorgs run into a Hive/mainbase and rape the power node before anyone can react.
Gunna have to disagree on that part I bolded (maybe because i mostly play gorge?). I take out power nodes at tech points solo all the damn time and it's extremely easy to do during big marine pushes and even easier to do if the marine team isn't dieing a lot. God forbid if I have another gorge buddy or an onos.
The main reason for me making this thread was how easy they are to take out since there is no notice. It dumbs the game so much and makes it so I can single-handedly cripple the marines and all I need is a gorge with adrenaline.
The Marine commander is the single most important player on the Marine team. It stands to reason that the failure of the comm reflects heavily on the team. I've been on the receiving end of a Marine comm dropping the ball and I've lost bases as Marine comm due to the shoddy notifications when your tech node is being attacked. It sucks losing a game you're winning, but the entire team knows the power node is the most important structure in the base. It's the team's responsibility to make sure it stays safe (nagging your comm to place a blockade on it, placing some MACs nearby, or placing a sentry farm) and the team's fault if it goes down.
Now if the Marines are on 2-base and the only IP/AL is on Marine start, well that's the marine comm's fault. No grunt should have to tell their comm to build redundant structures to avoid being ganked. Though nothing stopping a random grunt from informing a comm to buld 'x' structure at the expo for redundancy. I do it all the time and so should you (tough paying attention to that tiny-ass minimap).
Then reduce power node HP so aliens have incentives to attack them around the map, and even in the base, despite killing the base power only drops the lights.
Then reduce power node HP so aliens have incentives to attack them around the map, and even in the base, despite killing the base power only drops the lights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we're going to do that we may as well take it all the way and just make power nodes a light switch that's easy to kill and easy to repair. Which I do think would be better than what they are today.
Or perhaps a 2-stage power loss. At 25% or whatever HP, the lights dim and the power node is invulnerable for a short time. The commander is notified as well. This gives marines some time to react. And perhaps buildings are powered down momentarily. Marines would be waiting on the other side of a phase gate waiting for the emergency power to kick in for the remaining 25% HP on the power node.
Or the emergency power could be something the marine commander researches on a power node. It could act like above, or it could provide temporary power for, say, 30 seconds after a power node is destroyed.
Spending 10 seconds babysitting a squad in one position to get a notification 1 second before the power goes down in main base is heartbreaking.
The problem really that correlates here, many people don't realize that marines can shoot a hive down from a distance, heck. with a GL even from an arc (sorting hive at veil)
Where as the alien team needs to focus the power node, because that's the only remote vulnerability that marines have at the moment.
Skulks are the easiest target when they stand still, everyone know this as they try to chew down a power node, Chances are you're atleast gonna take one, if not two down that are biting on it.
All marines and aliens know what i'm talking about here.
But i'm diverting off the point i'm trying to make, Lets say there were no powernodes, Then. aliens would actually have to completely expose themselves to attack the com chair or IP's while marines are standing around on the sidelines shooting everyone.
You can not take a base down with more than 50% of the marines in the room.
If you want to take a marine base down, you need such a coordinated attack.
2 lerks, one gassing, the other umbra-ing,
At least 3 Onos to soak up damage,
At least 2 gorges that try to take down buildings,
The rest of the team fade or skulk to use xenocide in the base?
That's a very difficult thing to pull off if half your damn team doesn't speak English, if there's no one to coordinate such an attack, when the commander is helpless to attend (can't just use some magical microwave unit that shoots through walls), Highest an alien commander can do is throw drifter enzyme around, maybe some hallucinations that die in 2 hits.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea in genera, it's a bad idea because the aliens really don't have much of an easy alternative as marines do.
You know what i see in pub games?
I see 99% of the time, the aliens can't even make a move towards the LAST base a marine has, without atleast 3 onos.
Where as marines can pretty much conquer a place with just jetpacks / shotguns and GL's.
Which you do see a good 60% of the time.
Exo's apparently aren't 'good' right now, since they don't amount up to the 'onos' category.
But people fail to see the point of asymmetric teams.
Power nodes is your weakness. Thats just that, You want to change that. you need to change the whole mechanic of alien/marine plays.
Pushing a turtling marine base is hard enough as it is. Really, i've been in games that took 50 minutes, out of which the game was allready set after 20 minutes, but the commander of the marines decided to be a ###### and build armories in front of hallways.
Courtesy of recycling weapons without any form of diminishing return as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing them either buffed somehow or made less important.
I've seen ideas such as projectile covers (so spit and spike have no effect and bile is partly blocked) or hardened covers (giving double armor/health) which could give a nice choice to marine commanders.
Also or alternatively to make them become less important, maybe if the powers off building are debuffed but still run. Armorys would give out health/ammo slower, IPs would spawn slower, obs would have a longer beacon and smaller range, phasegates would teleport in and out slower, RTs would collect less res, could even make weapons and protos more expensive to buy in that room. If you coupled that with a massive health decrease by default (say ~50% of an RT) they would still be valid targets.
Yeah that would be simpler. There is no reason for marines to turn them on though in the first place unless the lights are off by default, or power nodes are built by default.
I really like it for extractors that are alone, and i love how the ligth goes of.
But as mentioned in this topic there to weak for a base.
It would be much nicer if the aim was for the arms lab etc.
What isn't mentioned in this topic is the delay to bring it back up.
When it's down it takes time (like 10 sec) before it can be welded again, this is really anoying.
I would really love this to see in the next patch:
- delay before welding removed when powernode is down
- gorge bile damage reduced by 20% for powernode's in a phase tech area
- onos damage reduced by 30% for powernode's in a phase tech area
- batterie can provide power for infantry portal, 1 baterie per IP, spawn time decrease by 3 seconds