A summary of all the arguments on the Camo topic
_Necro_
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Is camo overpowered or not?</div>Sorry for creating a new thread on this topic. But I think the 8 pages long thread needs a conclusion of all the arguments. So we have them condensed for easier reading.
Ok, let me summarize all the pros and cons of camo in this discussion.
I think that both groups have some good points. (I have to note, that I personally think camo needs to be changed, but I will try to note arguments from both sides fair.) Lets start with the people who think camo is ok:
<ul><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->While camo is effective for skulks, it will completely lose its usefulness in mid game, when marines have tech points secured with obs. It will even become a impairment for the aliens, because they are missing the other upgrades that are highly useful for higher life forms.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is absolutely right. If aliens can't secure at least a 2nd hive, they got a real problem in mid and late game. This fact balances camo really nice right now. In a risk - reward sense.
But if you are fair, if aliens can't secure a 2nd tech point early on, (before the marines got an obs there,) they probably wouldn't have saved it with cara or celerity. It is highly difficult to create an opinion on anecdotal knowledge. Because you never know, if the skill-gap between the team where this much off, that camo had any influence on the outcome.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo requires a new tactic from the marines. They can't focus on RTs. They need to focus on tech points and get observatories up. Denying the aliens the 2nd or at least the 3rd hive, until they have teched up and can overrun the aliens.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
While it seems to be the most valid tactic against camo, there are some problems with this tactic. In maps with 5 tech points, the marines need to secure at least 2 tech points + marine base. Against aliens that use camo aggressive, this is very difficult to obtain. Even if you got this 2 additional bases secured and a obs placed, you can only hold 3 RTs.
In maps with double res like veil, aliens have the option to get much more RTs than marines. It is very easy to harass marine RTs that are not on a tech point with an obs. This can lead to a fairly fast p-res onos rush, that gets at least 1 tech point free.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo can be countered by the marine com with scan and obs. This completely negates the upgrade and leaves the aliens with no useful upgrades at all until the 2nd hive.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is right to some extend. But has 2 major flaws. 1.) scanning for 2 advancing groups cost the amount of res you create with 3 resource towers. You need to scan every 14 seconds to secure a group that is not near an obs. With 3 RTs you only get 6 res every 14 seconds. Leaves you with costs of 50% of your income just for scan. If you want to distract the aliens you need 2 groups completely wasting your res income on scans.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Only bad marine coms lose against camo.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This argument is without value. You could also say, only bad aliens lose with the early camo tactic. If you would be fair, you need to see, that very good marines can win against aliens no matter what upgrade they chose first. And vice versa. If you like camo how it is now, you will always come up with excuses like this: If you lost as marines against camo, it was the coms fault. If you win against camo, it shows that camo is fine. (Or the other way: If you won as aliens with camo, it is overpowered, if you lost with camo, your aliens were noobs that couldn't use it right.)
I also think that NS2 already has a high dependency to one person of the team. With a bad marine commander you lose. No matter how good your marines are. Camo highly amplifies this dependency. And while I like this general aspect of NS2, I think it shouldn't be exaggerated. Or it will become frustrating for the marines on the field. They need the option to counter it by itself. If you continue to die against a thread, you couldn't do anything against, you will get frustrated.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->If aliens go camo first, you only need to rush the hive to win instantly.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
How is this tactic not possible on crag or shift hive first? Skulks with cara or cele doesn't become super effective in combat. The hive rush is absolutely equally powerful with shift or crag hive first.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->If you nerf camo, it will be ignored again. Shade will be always 3rd hive again.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Yeah I think this too. And this should not happen! But you have to keep in mind, that camo is much more valuable for skulks than silence right now. And the best case is, that every upgrade should be an equally viable option.
There are other ways to buff camo in exchange for a way to counter it on the field, without heavy dependency on the com. (For example: Obs and scan doesn't uncloak an alien, but shows the motion-tracking blip. Or make it the other way, it uncloaks, but doesn't show the blips and doesn't show the alien on the minimap. The second would make camo even viable in comp games, that focus highly on battlefield-intel.) I think we can balance camo the way, it remains viable as first hive, but gives the marine on the field an option to counter it.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo is a unique upgrade, that demands a completely new tactic and changes the game-play completely. This makes it interesting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is right. In comparison with cele or cara, it changes the game-play much more and creates variety.
But this doesn't mean, that we can't make it more fun for the marine on the field without making it useless.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo doesn't help you in combat like cara or adren. And skulks are much weaker when they don't have cara or cele.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Skulks doesn't suddenly get useless without cara or cele. Also, you underestimate the power of camo. Most people forget, that we got a network latency when playing. Add this to the normal human reaction time and you get around 500ms. So the first bite of the skulk is free with camo (75 damage). With 500ms overall latency, the second bite is also free, before the marine starts to fire at you. (150 damage). This all comes on top of the fact, that you completely negate the marines ranged-advantage. No other upgrade can grant you this. And while camo is fairly balanced right now, with the high risk of getting behind in mid and late game, I think the advantage it creates is to much. Negating the ranged-advantage is more than enough for an upgrade. This makes it already superior to cara or cele. But getting 150 damage for free on top of that, is simply to much.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The camo mechanic is balanced. Leave it alone. High risk, high reward. If you can't get a huge advantage in the early game, you probably lose the mid- and late-game.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Yes camo is balanced in a risk reward sense. But this isn't mainly about balance. It is about giving the marine on the field a way to counter a camo alien.
And if we add a way for the field marine to counter it, we sure need to balance it again. Because this change would be a nerf to camo that would bring it back to the state, were it is only researched at the 3rd hive.</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>TL;DR:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro--><b>Now lets conclude and be productive on this topic. What are my main points:</b><ul><li>Camo is fairly good balanced right now, but the risk and the reward are both to high.</li><li>Camo needs a way to be countered on the field by the normal marine. The extreme com-dependency creates frustration.</li><li>The 150 damage for free + negating the marine ranged advantage is to much for one upgrade.</li><li>The last 2 points above can only be fixed by nerfing camo in one way or another. But than we also need to decrease the high risk it has right now. (Or it will never be used again.)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>What are my ideas to fix it without making it useless:</b><ul><li>When you jump or click mouse1, there is an uncloak animation that lasts 500ms or maybe 1 second. (Needs to be tested to find a balanced value!) You can move with full speed the moment the uncloak animation starts, but you can only bite after the animation has finished.
This is only to compensate for the 500ms network latency, so you don't get the first bite for free when you uncloak right in the face of the marine. It should not be longer than that!</li><li>Give the marine on the field an item to see cloaked aliens. This item could need to be researched by the com at the armory. It would cost marines resources and could take the axe or mines slot. You would need to equip it to use it. So you need to switch weapons to fight. Something like the motion tracker from "Aliens" comes to mind. Or another appearance of such an item would be a kind of colored flashlight, that uncloaks aliens when you point at them. Just something that gives a marine on the field a way to counter camo without being heavily dependent on the commander.</li><li>While both of the above are nerfs of camo, we need something to decrease the risk you got when going shade hive first. This can be achieved by making it more viable in mid / late-game. (Like I wrote above) For example: An alien with camo is uncloaked by scan and observatories, but never shown on the map and has no motion-tracking blip. It also remains invisible for the marine com. It gets only visible on the map when attacking something. This allows for sneaky tactics and increases the viability against observatories, but doesn't make them useless. (They uncloak the aliens anyway.)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think this changes could make camo more fair for the marine on the field, without making it useless. It also decreases the risk to go shade first and will be more viable in mid- to late-game. And even in comp-matches. I also hope that I haven't forgotten any other argument from the discussion. If so, please write it down, and I will add it to the main post. Thank you for reading. :)
Ok, let me summarize all the pros and cons of camo in this discussion.
I think that both groups have some good points. (I have to note, that I personally think camo needs to be changed, but I will try to note arguments from both sides fair.) Lets start with the people who think camo is ok:
<ul><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->While camo is effective for skulks, it will completely lose its usefulness in mid game, when marines have tech points secured with obs. It will even become a impairment for the aliens, because they are missing the other upgrades that are highly useful for higher life forms.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is absolutely right. If aliens can't secure at least a 2nd hive, they got a real problem in mid and late game. This fact balances camo really nice right now. In a risk - reward sense.
But if you are fair, if aliens can't secure a 2nd tech point early on, (before the marines got an obs there,) they probably wouldn't have saved it with cara or celerity. It is highly difficult to create an opinion on anecdotal knowledge. Because you never know, if the skill-gap between the team where this much off, that camo had any influence on the outcome.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo requires a new tactic from the marines. They can't focus on RTs. They need to focus on tech points and get observatories up. Denying the aliens the 2nd or at least the 3rd hive, until they have teched up and can overrun the aliens.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
While it seems to be the most valid tactic against camo, there are some problems with this tactic. In maps with 5 tech points, the marines need to secure at least 2 tech points + marine base. Against aliens that use camo aggressive, this is very difficult to obtain. Even if you got this 2 additional bases secured and a obs placed, you can only hold 3 RTs.
In maps with double res like veil, aliens have the option to get much more RTs than marines. It is very easy to harass marine RTs that are not on a tech point with an obs. This can lead to a fairly fast p-res onos rush, that gets at least 1 tech point free.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo can be countered by the marine com with scan and obs. This completely negates the upgrade and leaves the aliens with no useful upgrades at all until the 2nd hive.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is right to some extend. But has 2 major flaws. 1.) scanning for 2 advancing groups cost the amount of res you create with 3 resource towers. You need to scan every 14 seconds to secure a group that is not near an obs. With 3 RTs you only get 6 res every 14 seconds. Leaves you with costs of 50% of your income just for scan. If you want to distract the aliens you need 2 groups completely wasting your res income on scans.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Only bad marine coms lose against camo.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This argument is without value. You could also say, only bad aliens lose with the early camo tactic. If you would be fair, you need to see, that very good marines can win against aliens no matter what upgrade they chose first. And vice versa. If you like camo how it is now, you will always come up with excuses like this: If you lost as marines against camo, it was the coms fault. If you win against camo, it shows that camo is fine. (Or the other way: If you won as aliens with camo, it is overpowered, if you lost with camo, your aliens were noobs that couldn't use it right.)
I also think that NS2 already has a high dependency to one person of the team. With a bad marine commander you lose. No matter how good your marines are. Camo highly amplifies this dependency. And while I like this general aspect of NS2, I think it shouldn't be exaggerated. Or it will become frustrating for the marines on the field. They need the option to counter it by itself. If you continue to die against a thread, you couldn't do anything against, you will get frustrated.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->If aliens go camo first, you only need to rush the hive to win instantly.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
How is this tactic not possible on crag or shift hive first? Skulks with cara or cele doesn't become super effective in combat. The hive rush is absolutely equally powerful with shift or crag hive first.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->If you nerf camo, it will be ignored again. Shade will be always 3rd hive again.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Yeah I think this too. And this should not happen! But you have to keep in mind, that camo is much more valuable for skulks than silence right now. And the best case is, that every upgrade should be an equally viable option.
There are other ways to buff camo in exchange for a way to counter it on the field, without heavy dependency on the com. (For example: Obs and scan doesn't uncloak an alien, but shows the motion-tracking blip. Or make it the other way, it uncloaks, but doesn't show the blips and doesn't show the alien on the minimap. The second would make camo even viable in comp games, that focus highly on battlefield-intel.) I think we can balance camo the way, it remains viable as first hive, but gives the marine on the field an option to counter it.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo is a unique upgrade, that demands a completely new tactic and changes the game-play completely. This makes it interesting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This is right. In comparison with cele or cara, it changes the game-play much more and creates variety.
But this doesn't mean, that we can't make it more fun for the marine on the field without making it useless.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Camo doesn't help you in combat like cara or adren. And skulks are much weaker when they don't have cara or cele.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Skulks doesn't suddenly get useless without cara or cele. Also, you underestimate the power of camo. Most people forget, that we got a network latency when playing. Add this to the normal human reaction time and you get around 500ms. So the first bite of the skulk is free with camo (75 damage). With 500ms overall latency, the second bite is also free, before the marine starts to fire at you. (150 damage). This all comes on top of the fact, that you completely negate the marines ranged-advantage. No other upgrade can grant you this. And while camo is fairly balanced right now, with the high risk of getting behind in mid and late game, I think the advantage it creates is to much. Negating the ranged-advantage is more than enough for an upgrade. This makes it already superior to cara or cele. But getting 150 damage for free on top of that, is simply to much.
</li><li><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The camo mechanic is balanced. Leave it alone. High risk, high reward. If you can't get a huge advantage in the early game, you probably lose the mid- and late-game.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Yes camo is balanced in a risk reward sense. But this isn't mainly about balance. It is about giving the marine on the field a way to counter a camo alien.
And if we add a way for the field marine to counter it, we sure need to balance it again. Because this change would be a nerf to camo that would bring it back to the state, were it is only researched at the 3rd hive.</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>TL;DR:</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro--><b>Now lets conclude and be productive on this topic. What are my main points:</b><ul><li>Camo is fairly good balanced right now, but the risk and the reward are both to high.</li><li>Camo needs a way to be countered on the field by the normal marine. The extreme com-dependency creates frustration.</li><li>The 150 damage for free + negating the marine ranged advantage is to much for one upgrade.</li><li>The last 2 points above can only be fixed by nerfing camo in one way or another. But than we also need to decrease the high risk it has right now. (Or it will never be used again.)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>What are my ideas to fix it without making it useless:</b><ul><li>When you jump or click mouse1, there is an uncloak animation that lasts 500ms or maybe 1 second. (Needs to be tested to find a balanced value!) You can move with full speed the moment the uncloak animation starts, but you can only bite after the animation has finished.
This is only to compensate for the 500ms network latency, so you don't get the first bite for free when you uncloak right in the face of the marine. It should not be longer than that!</li><li>Give the marine on the field an item to see cloaked aliens. This item could need to be researched by the com at the armory. It would cost marines resources and could take the axe or mines slot. You would need to equip it to use it. So you need to switch weapons to fight. Something like the motion tracker from "Aliens" comes to mind. Or another appearance of such an item would be a kind of colored flashlight, that uncloaks aliens when you point at them. Just something that gives a marine on the field a way to counter camo without being heavily dependent on the commander.</li><li>While both of the above are nerfs of camo, we need something to decrease the risk you got when going shade hive first. This can be achieved by making it more viable in mid / late-game. (Like I wrote above) For example: An alien with camo is uncloaked by scan and observatories, but never shown on the map and has no motion-tracking blip. It also remains invisible for the marine com. It gets only visible on the map when attacking something. This allows for sneaky tactics and increases the viability against observatories, but doesn't make them useless. (They uncloak the aliens anyway.)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think this changes could make camo more fair for the marine on the field, without making it useless. It also decreases the risk to go shade first and will be more viable in mid- to late-game. And even in comp-matches. I also hope that I haven't forgotten any other argument from the discussion. If so, please write it down, and I will add it to the main post. Thank you for reading. :)
Comments
I appreciate the amount of work you've put into this post, so a pretty glaring detail like that should be noted.
You could always turn Camo into Focus :D?
Or short range detect on macs or arcs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a balance problem, it's a bad mechanic problem:
- If camo is 100% invisible and silent then it's boring play for both marine and skulk: you just get a free bite without any possibility of improving on the skulk side or to do anything about it on the marine side. It's a very binary mechanic.
- If camo is not 100% invisible then people tweak their graphics option to see cloaked units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mechanics first, then balance. Balance is easy.
Before any nerf to a specific feature/ability is proposed (not just camo) I am a firm believer that a more thorough study should be first done about the facts around it. I.e.:
- how many games where the AC chooses shade first or second are won overall
- how many games where the AC chooses non shade first or second are won overall
- Shade first or second wins as a fraction of overall aliens wins
- average K/D ratio for skulks (or any other lifeform for that matter) with camo versus other skulks. Produce figures for both early (up to, say, the 5 minute mark) and mid game (say, 5 to 20 minute mark)
- Average life expectancy of both marines and aliens when shade hive first or second vs shade hive last
- do all of the above but on a map by map basis
- etc etc
There may be other ways to measure the "problem" better than these but hey.
Of course you can make up some <i>theoretical</i> logic system where camo is OP.
But then I can do the same for dual Exo(which theoretically is the definition of OP) and a bunch of other stuff.
People will believe what they believe and the prior camo threads showed that most ppl are immunue to logic and making up some new reasons why camo is imba seems to be a hobby to some.
just remove it and add focus instead. then watch them cry even louder. then just add marine vs. marine with 100% symmetrical maps so finally the game is balanced.
Before any nerf to a specific feature/ability is proposed (not just camo) I am a firm believer that a more thorough study should be first done about the facts around it. I.e.:
- how many games where the AC chooses shade first or second are won overall
- how many games where the AC chooses non shade first or second are won overall
- Shade first or second wins as a fraction of overall aliens wins
- average K/D ratio for skulks (or any other lifeform for that matter) with camo versus other skulks. Produce figures for both early (up to, say, the 5 minute mark) and mid game (say, 5 to 20 minute mark)
- Average life expectancy of both marines and aliens when shade hive first or second vs shade hive last
- do all of the above but on a map by map basis
- etc etc
There may be other ways to measure the "problem" better than these but hey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the issue is you need to know how well they used shade too. Not simply if they used it as many Khams will go shade first and at best use 3 of the 5 things it offers. (Silence, Camo and shade plant passive). If you've played with a Kham who knows how to use ink and hallucinations then you see a huge difference in shade first
Of course, but the same goes for any other hive type. We have all kinds of commanders, the good, the bad and the ugly. All taking different degrees of advantage out of the 3 hives. The law of averages across hives will make the right indicators relevant if the samples are big enough.
But I agree, in general even figures wont give you a 100% clearcut picture. That being the case now imagine how it must have been so far discussing things without them!
This is absolutely right. If aliens can't secure at least a 2nd hive, they got a real problem in mid and late game. This fact balances camo really nice right now. In a risk - reward sense.
But if you are fair, if aliens can't secure a 2nd tech point early on, (before the marines got an obs there,) they probably wouldn't have saved it with cara or celerity. It is highly difficult to create an opinion on anecdotal knowledge. Because you never know, if the skill-gap between the team where this much off, that camo had any influence on the outcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sry, but this one is bull######.
Camo effected midgame simply by lowering the marines tech, because they have to spend tons of res into obs and scans. And its still valuable on open fields. People overrating the value of celerity/adren. Adren is useless in early game(why in hell some commanders upgradeing this first?) and most people still dont know that celerity is deactivated in combat.
So much people crying about camo that they are simply forget that there is another upgrade on shade which is usefull even for some higher lifeforms. The khamm have to tech silence for the mid/late-game and its all fine. Experienced players works alot with their ears :>. So, silence makes experienced rines paranoid.
And do not hearing yourself while eating a RT with a skulk is an advantage that most players are underrateing.
Damaging an exo is alot easier, especially if there are random voices around him. He will aware that he is getting atacked after u decreasing his HP alot.
Silence on Onos is so much usefull. Every one knows what a big bang onose do just by walking. And its so funny if u can now just follow and "backstabbing" marines with a 2-tons heavy meatball.
And yes. You are right. If aliens cannot secure a second hive , it doesnt matter which upgrade is currently up. So why u are negating your own statement here?
In the end it doesnt matter if u go shade first or last. It still depends on the alien players skill. U will never lost a game, with experienced alienplayers , just by teching *insert shade/shift/crag* first.
The Problem with shade hive first or second is that if the marines are good and the aliens cant secure more than 2 hives, you will either lack Armor or Speed/energy in lategame due to the lack of a 3rd hive, ive seen it plenty of times, which is why i very rarely go shade first.
This is the best tactic so far, but as OP already mentioned, this can be circumvented by aliens simply getting all rt's cept those 3 in the tech points, and thus getting Onoses before marine team is at 2/2. Gl holding a base against 3-4 Onos with dat.
When I play, I rely heavily on my ears. I use it to know when a skulk approaches the corner I want to pass, and stops to make my sound mute before he hears it, and get to hit him from afar before he even taken in how the room looks.
I also noticed that camo plays a really loud activation sound, which mean I know if the enemy that retreated stayed in the very next room, or if that skulk who just parasited me decided to go in for the kill.
My solution to cloaked enemies is shooting certain spots a little randomly, as I expect aliens to hide there, listening for any sounds they make and from where, and if I know there is a cloaked enemy in the area, I often sacrifice myself by placing myself in a vulnerable position, empty my mag at wherever the enemy most likely is, and although this may find them, I hope that my friend covering me will kill them before I die, since I cant defend myself when reloading.
So unless its a real ambush, a cloaked alien rarely takes out more than 1 marine in a squad i'm in, and those real ambushes can be performed without cloak.
Honestly I feel that silence is better for the skulk, since an ambush then is only found out by the guy I am biting (hint: good players fire a few bullets immediately to alert their friends, even before they see me at their feet), making me get several free bites against the entire squad most of the time.
It also makes me the prepared one when I run into a rine at a corner, while they are taken by utter surprise.
Camo effected midgame simply by lowering the marines tech, because they have to spend tons of res into obs and scans. And its still valuable on open fields. People overrating the value of celerity/adren. Adren is useless in early game(why in hell some commanders upgradeing this first?) and most people still dont know that celerity is deactivated in combat.
So much people crying about camo that they are simply forget that there is another upgrade on shade which is usefull even for some higher lifeforms. The khamm have to tech silence for the mid/late-game and its all fine. Experienced players works alot with their ears :>. So, silence makes experienced rines paranoid.
And do not hearing yourself while eating a RT with a skulk is an advantage that most players are underrateing.
Damaging an exo is alot easier, especially if there are random voices around him. He will aware that he is getting atacked after u decreasing his HP alot.
Silence on Onos is so much usefull. Every one knows what a big bang onose do just by walking. And its so funny if u can now just follow and "backstabbing" marines with a 2-tons heavy meatball.
And yes. You are right. If aliens cannot secure a second hive , it doesnt matter which upgrade is currently up. So why u are negating your own statement here?
In the end it doesnt matter if u go shade first or last. It still depends on the alien players skill. U will never lost a game, with experienced alienplayers , just by teching *insert shade/shift/crag* first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to have to disagree. Going camo first completely ruins alien mid game. You can go lerk approx 3-4 minutes in, and with only camo, a lerk loses a lot of killing power. With celerity it at least becomes even more of a pain in the ass to hit with proper movement, but camo does nothing for it. Silence is good, but if the khamm does camo + silence, he slowed down the time it will take to get the 2nd hive and a real upgrade for the lerk. Not only that, if the marine team was semi competent, they will most likely take or at least be contesting a 3rd hive position. The real issue with shade first is when you're in a two hive situation, not just a one hive situation. (I haven't seen a one hive situation in a very long time, unless the teams are amazingly skill stacked). Shade + crag on a fade is painful due to not having adren for blink or celerity, and I already outlined why it was bad for a lerk. A two hive onos is a real problem. An onos that doesn't have celerity and a crag upgrade is going to get killed a lot easier, as it can be chased down without a jp if it doesn't have celerity, or is paper without a crag upgrade.
I'm not entirely sure where the argument about shade being OP is coming from. The only thing it did as a marine was force me not to rush alien upgrades / harvesters as much. You waste a bit more res securing positions, but not a huge amount as long as you're not scanning like crazy for no reason.
Mechanics first, then balance. Balance is easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but as you could read at the end of the post, I doesn't focus on balance. The changes I suggest are mainly a difference in the mechanic on how camo plays out on the field against the marines and if they have an option to counter an alien with camo. Right now they doesn't. It all depends on one player. The com. If he can't counter camo, the marines lose.
But I will add your point about balance. Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=2049221:date=Dec 21 2012, 03:38 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Dec 21 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sry, but this one is bull######.
[...]
And yes. You are right. If aliens cannot secure a second hive , it doesnt matter which upgrade is currently up. So why u are negating your own statement here?
In the end it doesnt matter if u go shade first or last. It still depends on the alien players skill. U will never lost a game, with experienced alienplayers , just by teching *insert shade/shift/crag* first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post was mainly a summary of the arguments. I tried to add every point that was said. I'm not trying to convince you of something. In fact, I even agree with you on this point.
Its most likely not going to be the CAMO/SHADE that allows this though. The point is that any marine commander and team that has a shot at winning at all will know how to respond to shade first and deny the aliens their mid-game advantage by playing aggressive and forcing the aliens to defend their hive and not play a macro game.
This is why Shade first is a rush tactic, if you don't rush the marine base, you're forcing them to rush yours. And, even if by some miricle the game goes past 5 minutes, the aliens have a shot at winning via economic means, but if they don't its a marine auto-win after 10 minutes into the game.
There is no reason to try to secure 50% of the RTs on a map when the aliens have gone shade first... but even if you do, the aliens advantage isn't in harrassing RT's that are built but rather in killing Marines that are trying to build/defend them. Once JP's and PG's shrink the map for marines, camo just can't perform well enough to keep the alien economy running. Onos spam isn't that scary to a well armed marine team with JP's... securing 2 tech points is trivial for marines who only have that on the menu.
Anyway... the same point holds true, the most likely scenario is that any marine team that is bad enough to lose to shade first is not good enough to win vs. any kind of alien pressure, but the victory will seem comparatively more easy because camo destroys noob marines. This doesn't validate shade first as a viable build path, but it does create the impression that camo is OP as a result of these games being extra one sided. Good teams will be beaten only occasionally and for reasons related to missing the window to counter it early or just failing to respond IMO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the issue is you need to know how well they used shade too. Not simply if they used it as many Khams will go shade first and at best use 3 of the 5 things it offers. (Silence, Camo and shade plant passive). If you've played with a Kham who knows how to use ink and hallucinations then you see a huge difference in shade first<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where are these commanders? Are you getting some unheard of superior results from hallucinations and ink spam that I'm missing? Please be descriptive in what it is you're doing that's getting these amazing results because honestly I don't get any results from early game shades other than wasted res. Early hallucinations do what exactly? YouTube links please!!!
Lotta people try to be sneaky with the camo and end up wasting time better spent actually attacking key points and zipping across the map at the Khammander's whim.
Hence, given the choice, I often go cara and celerity instead as a skulk. If camo and silence are given, I would pick silence. The only life forms I'd use camo on is Onos and Fade, since I often need to sit and wait for a backup sortie before attacking a main base.
Cara+Celerity+Silence+Leap makes a <i>great</i> skulk. There are plenty of crevices to hide in the ceiling, bypassing the need for camo in most situations.
Personally, Camo is probably best just for cloaking buildings. And even then it doesn't really do a good job, considering the squelchy footsteps.
Lotta people try to be sneaky with the camo and end up wasting time better spent actually attacking key points and zipping across the map at the Khammander's whim.
Hence, given the choice, I often go cara and celerity instead as a skulk. If camo and silence are given, I would pick silence. The only life forms I'd use camo on is Onos and Fade, since I often need to sit and wait for a backup sortie before attacking a main base.
Cara+Celerity+Silence+Leap makes a <i>great</i> skulk. There are plenty of crevices to hide in the ceiling, bypassing the need for camo in most situations.
Personally, Camo is probably best just for cloaking buildings. And even then it doesn't really do a good job, considering the squelchy footsteps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a common misconception. You should use camo ONLY to engage at a marine and close the distance to bite-range.
NEVER use camo to travel the map.
NEVER use camo to camp.
The use of camo is, that you can close the distance to a marine while he is guarding a corridor. You can move while invisible. This is the advantage.
Secondly camo isn't for sneakin into bases it's for territorial dominance. And if the marines do put up observatories everywhere you just switch to silence. Since many players rely on hearing instead of vision.
This is why Shade first is a rush tactic, if you don't rush the marine base, you're forcing them to rush yours. And, even if by some miricle the game goes past 5 minutes, the aliens have a shot at winning via economic means, but if they don't its a marine auto-win after 10 minutes into the game.
There is no reason to try to secure 50% of the RTs on a map when the aliens have gone shade first... but even if you do, the aliens advantage isn't in harrassing RT's that are built but rather in killing Marines that are trying to build/defend them. Once JP's and PG's shrink the map for marines, camo just can't perform well enough to keep the alien economy running. Onos spam isn't that scary to a well armed marine team with JP's... securing 2 tech points is trivial for marines who only have that on the menu.
Anyway... the same point holds true, the most likely scenario is that any marine team that is bad enough to lose to shade first is not good enough to win vs. any kind of alien pressure, but the victory will seem comparatively more easy because camo destroys noob marines. This doesn't validate shade first as a viable build path, but it does create the impression that camo is OP as a result of these games being extra one sided. Good teams will be beaten only occasionally and for reasons related to missing the window to counter it early or just failing to respond IMO.
Where are these commanders? Are you getting some unheard of superior results from hallucinations and ink spam that I'm missing? Please be descriptive in what it is you're doing that's getting these amazing results because honestly I don't get any results from early game shades other than wasted res. Early hallucinations do what exactly? YouTube links please!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just painful to read. Please be more concise. So you're saying marine rush>shade first? Please elaborate. And no, I don't believe teams that lose to shade lose to any other hive too. Doesn't happen on EU atleast. (14 camo khamm wins in row and counting...) JP's are end game. Shade has failed at that point, so it's pointless to include that tech into this convo.
NEVER use camo to travel the map.
NEVER use camo to camp.
The use of camo is, that you can close the distance to a marine while he is guarding a corridor. You can move while invisible. This is the advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've found that most marines can't hit a leaping skulk, so I often use leap to close the gap if it's available.
Yes, camo <i>can</i> be awesome with an intelligent player, but as it stands right now most players use camo to camp/crawl around the map like you mentioned.
Cara+Celerity+Leap all the way! That's how I like to play.
My opinion is that Camo should be reworked to be counterable by marines in the field and not by the comm. Make it a partial cloak that is not revealed by scans or observatories, or something along those lines.
sides, all i've ever seen camo give is a bite or two and then it's open season, so if a marine is out alone, with no backup to avenge or give support fire, it's his own fault.
in all the games i've played since early Beta, never seen Camo 'break' any games, or even be more than a footnote. either been 'lucky', or it's being exaggerated.
Why not a 5 PRES 'Scan Grenade'? You buy one (max), toss it in and bam, you get a scan (at half the range of a Commander scan, perhaps).
I love how in every camo topic you make it sound like Ink and Hallucinations are useful, rather than the only resource sink you're likely to have with a shade hive. Hallucination are, quite literally, the most useless thing the aliens have in their arsenal. Ink is at least <i>situationally</i> useful rather than useless in every possible scenario.
Go ahead, nerf camo. It'll be fun having Shift/Crag/Shade every single game ever. I'm serious when I say this. A nerf to camo makes everyone happy. The n00bs that think it's useful will believe they helped, the good players that were frustrated by crappy commanders getting camo first will be happy, and most of all Marine teams will be happy because Aliens now have the same build order 100% of the time. Marines will also not need to worry about changing their strategy, ever.
These are all <u>benefits</u> right?
(Do not take my obvious sarcasm as an indicator that I think Camo <i>shouldn't</i> be nerfed. It should. That way the newer players will realize camo had <i>nothing</i> to do with the curb stomping they're constantly at the receiving end of.)
Compare what the two commanders need to do with camo: The khammander builds the upgrade and... and that's pretty much all the interaction. Very exciting. While the marine commander has to make judgement calls over and over and over to counter it. And spend a lot of pres on observatories early game when resources are tight to begin with because getting up phase tech is crucial to equalizing the speed advantage aliens have innately. (And people wonder why aliens swim in tres and why a marine sniping an RT is not nearly as damaging as a skulk doing the same.)
Now think of how foot soldiers are affected by camo: Sneaking around on walls, finding dark areas to hide, setting up ambushes; a lot of work went into making maps that acomodate this hide and seek. Frantically emptying magazines trying to track skulks that rush us; the thrill of dodging bullets left and right, looking to be as unpredictable as possible while closing our distance to marines; I would say these are pretty integral to how the game plays ideally. Which camo castrates. It utterly dumbs down skulk gameplay and frustrates marines who can't do anything to counter it without their comm.
And by anything I mean anything. Shooting into thin air hoping to hit a skulk in a room is not a counter, it is blind luck. Moving in pairs to help each other is not a counter, skulks can do that too. And if they are worth their salt, they use their victim as cover from the marine that's covering. Moving in groups is not a counter, it is a prerequisite to give your comm a chance to counter it. Because he will bleed tres if he has to scan constantly on several fronts. However if he is incompetent you are still SOL.
Camo amplifies the marine team's reliance on their commander and gives alines even more freedom to act on their own. Assuming equal teams, worst case scenario aliens break even. It takes a lot of cooperation and a comm that knows exactly how to react to negate camo. As the average skill level decreases the more likely it becomes the alien team just straight up wins. So while yes marines that lose to it are probably bad, the problem is that they lose even if the alien team is equally bad. In pubs it takes a good marine and a bad alien team to defeat camo.
The funny part? This is true no matter what. It's actually the reason why Marines are losing so often. They are, in every meaningful way, completely reliant on their commander. Camo just makes this obvious even to newer players. Sadly, newer players lack the experience to realize it's true in <i>every</i> game, not just camo first games. It's also why they lose a lot over all.
It's also why nerfing Camo won't do jack diddly for Marines win rate.
Most people dont know that shade is a very cheap upgrade.
Celerity = 25 res
regen = 25 res
carapace = 30 res
Camo + silence = 30 res
Thats another point for shade first. You can get instantly a first upgrade + 2 restowers in 60-90 secs
It's also why nerfing Camo won't do jack diddly for Marines win rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The key word I used is 'amplify'. Yes marines are more reliant on comms either way, but a reasonable amount of imbalance is acceptable in asymmetric games. (This one is obviously subjective but I think camo is way off the mark here.) The bigger the imbalance the bigger the skill difference that's needed to overcome it so while no removing it wouldn't mean 50 / 50 win rates, I can't agree on it not having any effect on win rates.
But win ratios aren't even what really matters here. Winning is not required to have fun, it is just a nice bonus. Pretty sure everybody has lots of games under their belt that they enjoyed despite losing. The real problem is the utter impotence of the individual marine if their commander is inexperienced. There is no fun in dying without a fighting chance and sooner or later killing easy prey gets old too.
You just distilled a half dozen 'nerf camo' threads into one sentence. Congratulations. This is a problem with the Marines team overall, and has <i>nothing</i> to do with the Aliens team. Aliens have been nerfed time and time again across the spectrum from Onos timing, to out-of-combat times, to how well structures work and even <i>how</i> the structures work.
Know what the end result has been, according to the only stats you're able to see as a player?
Aliens are winning <i>more than ever</i>.
Now, I'd be the first to point out that NS2Stats is a <i>horrible</i> tool to try and use. That's why the developers have their own stats that we <i>can not</i> see as players. Would I like to see those stats? You bet I would.
I'm just pointing to the fact that there is essentially zero information beyond random peoples experience to base any nerfs on. That random experience has resulted in no consensus community view. There are complainers, haters, L2P'ers, apologists, and those that don't care either way.
Maybe the skill floor required for Marines command is simply too much for most players. I think that the nerfs required for aliens to lower that skill floor are the worst possible solution though. It doesn't 'balance' anything to nerf camo, it removes it from the game. This might be fine, since the Marines commander will have less to worry about.
The flip side of that is the Aliens commander has less to worry about too, and he already doesn't have much to worry about. This is one step closer to the eventual automation of the Aliens command. It's already so easy that a simple computer program could command as well as an intermediate human. Lets just go whole hog and get rid of him entirely since predictability and linear progression are what every new player seems to want from the Aliens.
If that's what you need to play Marines commander well, then perhaps you should tell that to all the experienced Marines commanders that don't have any problems fighting cloaking aliens. Since you're not listening to them though, I doubt they'll listen to you.
this is always the case on these forums for every single issue this game has had. the feedback is simply 95% a mess. the only way past it is simply to learn how to objectively analyze your games and understand the reasons why you won or lost or how certain battles should have turned out with equal skill levels, only then is it possible to speak toward balance
This I will 100% agree with.
At the level of play most people are citing problems with, anything will win though. That's the only disconnect I really see.