Why is there no option to completely disable infestation?
JAMESEARLJONOS
Join Date: 2012-12-15 Member: 175155Members
Join Date: 2012-12-15 Member: 175155Members
It's a fact that infestation is one of the biggest sources of FPS lag in the game. To the point that not rendering any infestation <b>at all</b> would boost late game FPS by as much as 30-40 for many people. In a game in where FPS lag is one of the biggest complaints, why has a disable infestation option not been added? Dealing with mild confusion as to where the infestation begins/ends would be a very small price to pay for drastically improved frame rate.
Is there any reason why a basic version of this couldn't be put into the next patch? Even in the most bare bones form in where people literally can't tell where the infestation is, I feel like a major portion of the player base would still make that trade off in order to have smoother FPS in-game.
Is there any reason why a basic version of this couldn't be put into the next patch? Even in the most bare bones form in where people literally can't tell where the infestation is, I feel like a major portion of the player base would still make that trade off in order to have smoother FPS in-game.
Comments
And it isn't even all about the infestation. Every building has its own logic. Is it powered / on infestation is it activated? Not to mention the aiming algorithm for turrets, hydras and whips. The whole core of this game (that it is an RTS / FPS hybrid) together with LUA scripts that aren't that fast as C++ could be, adding up to make this game very CPU-demanding.
Again, this has nothing to do with what is drawn on your screen. The logic and the many dynamic entities (buildings, cysts, arcs, macs and so on) adding up to create heavy load on your CPU. This is different to every other game where most maps are static and the dynamical entities are only players, items and maybe some vehicles.
I'd replace cyst with bulky orange hemisphere, I don't mind. And all those crags and shifts that tend to be spammed could be turned so cones and cylinders.
You and I have very different standards of acceptable FPS. 30-40 FPS is <b>terrible</b>. Good FPS is 100-120+ consistently, because that's what looks smoothest on modern monitors that aren't garbage.
Also, reading up on the topic, people have apparently made server side mods that essentially remove infestation as a mechanic, and the end result was a <b>massive</b> frame rate boost for everyone participating in those games. Adding in some type of option (even if it's a user beware/looks awkward) that allows people on the individual level to remove infestation needs to become a reaility.
That wouldn't really be that big of a deal. You already place cysts well in advance of the infestation reaching them when spreading out as alien, and most of the things you want to drop are going to be in areas that are obvious infestation to begin with. And for human comm, clearing cysts out of an area you want to build in isn't particularly difficult to begin with.
Cysts themselves are obvious enough of a building (in regards to their radius) that you could play without infestation showing at all and not suffer much in the way of gameplay effectiveness. Certainly not to the point in where the massive FPS gain you get wouldn't outweigh it by a significant margin.
Well yeah. Infestation has little to no impact whatsoever on the field player's ability to function in the game, the only aspect of infestation a field player should even be aware of is cysts imo. Then you can make sure infestation shows up correctly for the only 2 players who care about it besides gorges, the two commanders.
what i want to ask is : is there anything stopping the cyst logic from being used on another thread ??? Is it that lua doesnt support multithreading ? And if so then could infeastation be hard coded into the engine itself in C++ ?
If the devs can't find a legitimate purpose for them, and alleviate the performance hit, I pray that they have the confidence to cut them out of the game.
If the devs can't find a legitimate purpose for them, and alleviate the performance hit, I pray that they have the confidence to cut them out of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell are you talking about? Powernodes and infestation mechanics are easily the STRONGEST components of NS2.
I doubt I would have even bothered buying this game if these mechanics weren't in.
Btw, if you put as many Dynamic entities as this game has into another game's engine, like battlefield 3, the performance would be even worse. Most other multiplayer games cannot handle that many Dynamic entities, so the most dynamic entities you see is the players themselves, possibly vehicles and small amounts of dynamics lights.
I love the fact that infestation can make an area look completely different.
The possibilities of unknownsworlds engine being able to handle large amounts of dynamic entities compared to other engines makes the possibilties of what can be accomplished on the developement end much greater and ultimately more fun for the players.
This is not true... or at least a gross oversimplification with little meaning.
<!--quoteo(post=2053541:date=Dec 31 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Dec 31 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the hell are you talking about? Powernodes and infestation mechanics are easily the STRONGEST components of NS2.
<snip>
I love the fact that infestation can make an area look completely different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What it looks like really has little to do with the gameplay. When people talk about gameplay and mechanics they are referring to what the player must perform in order to play the game, and how the state of the game can change according to players actions, respectively. Visuals only affect this indirectly, in as much as they enhance (or hinder) the players ability to perform his tasks.
//Edited for clarity
Since cysts seem to be such a huge drain in this regard - and I haven't checked the code, so maybe they already are doing this - can't they just put the cysts to sleep and only wake them when an event affects them, like a neighboring/connected cyst dying? Kinda like how Minecraft, for example, only updates blocks when a neighboring block is disturbed (which is why you can have floating shelves of sand when the world is generated; they don't update until something disturbs them).
Actually it's not that much of a oversimplification. Most current engines, like those for other first person shooters, use Software occlusion culling instead of Hardware occlusion culling.
The problem with software occlusion culling is that any dynamic entities that are on the map get rendered regardless of where they are on the map. The areas that are rendered, depending on your location, are calculated at the time the mapmaker compiles their map. Because the calculations are done at the time the map is compiled, it cannot account for dynamic entites, therefore it renders them no matter where they are. <u> Could you imagine having to render the entirety of the infestation at all times?</u>
Whereas hardware occlusion culling is done on the fly by the hardware and doesn't have that problem with dynamic entities. Albiet, at the cost of hardware processing power.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What it looks like really has little to do with the gameplay. When people talk about gameplay and mechanics they are referring to what the player must perform in order to play the game, and how the state of the game can change according to players actions, respectively. Visuals only affect this indirectly, in as much as they enhance (or hinder) the players ability to perform his tasks.
//Edited for clarity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what world you live in, but powernodes and infestation have quite a substantial effect on gameplay and are more than just merely for visuals.
Wanna test this?
Start a game in explore mode ad fill your hive room with infestation. Notice a frame rate drop? No, of course you don't. And if you can't see it, it isn't rendered so whether or not the rest of the map is covered in infestation isn't really relevant.
The cyst and structure logic is what slows the game down. You can't disable that without removing the mechanic entirely from the game. You may not like the mechanic, I do. Lets let UWE make the decision on what stays in and what doesn't, rather than deciding which of us is objectively the correct one.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->wmic computersystem where name="%computername%" set AutomaticManagedPagefile=False
echo y | wmic.exe pagefileset where name="C:\\pagefile.sys" delete
powercfg -h off
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "Hidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "HideFileExt" /d 0 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "SuperHidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "ShowSuperHidden" /d 1 /f<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There are a bunch of other little things I do, can't think of all of them off of the top of my head.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->wmic computersystem where name="%computername%" set AutomaticManagedPagefile=False
echo y | wmic.exe pagefileset where name="C:\\pagefile.sys" delete
powercfg -h off
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "Hidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "HideFileExt" /d 0 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "SuperHidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "ShowSuperHidden" /d 1 /f<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There are a bunch of other little things I do, can't think of all of them off of the top of my head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does this make the game run faster exactly?
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->wmic computersystem where name="%computername%" set AutomaticManagedPagefile=False
echo y | wmic.exe pagefileset where name="C:\\pagefile.sys" delete
powercfg -h off
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "Hidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "HideFileExt" /d 0 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "SuperHidden" /d 1 /f
reg add "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced" /t REG_DWORD /v "ShowSuperHidden" /d 1 /f<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
There are a bunch of other little things I do, can't think of all of them off of the top of my head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going offtopic here as well but I wanted to point this out:
Do NOT post suggestions and scripts without explaining what they do.
You should NOT disable your pagefile.
Sources:
<a href="http://serverfault.com/questions/23621/any-benefit-or-detriment-from-removing-a-pagefile-on-an-8gb-ram-machine/23684#23684" target="_blank">http://serverfault.com/questions/23621/any...ine/23684#23684</a>
<a href="http://superuser.com/questions/209541/windows-pagefile-size-with-large-ram-and-ssd" target="_blank">http://superuser.com/questions/209541/wind...rge-ram-and-ssd</a>
<a href="http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understanding-the-windows-pagefile-and-why-you-shouldnt-disable-it" target="_blank">http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understandin...ldnt-disable-it</a>
<a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=do+i+need+a+pagefile+on+window+7" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=do+i+need+a...ile+on+window+7</a>
In short: Why not? Because Windows will manage memory just fine by itself.
Ontopic: I wonder how much performance difference an empty map vs an infested map makes.
edit: added +1 source
I don't know, all I'm suggesting is that I've made a bunch of little changes here and there, and I'm not exactly high end, yet the game works perfectly fine for me.
<!--quoteo(post=2053643:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:47 AM:name=Zaggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zaggy @ Dec 31 2012, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going offtopic here as well but I wanted to point this out:
Do NOT post suggestions and scripts without explaining what they do.
You should NOT disable your pagefile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually considered all of the arguments against, but the main reason I do it is to eliminate the page file eating up space on my SSD. The only downside that is relevant to modern windows (vista and up) is that when a BSOD happens, the kernel won't dump its memory to disk so troubleshooting can't be done. However I seldom encounter a BSOD, the only times it happens is when I am performance tuning for higher clocks, in which case a panic dump is useless.
The other issues about apps crashing and whatnot is mostly an XP limitation and no longer applies. You'll get a warning well before you run out of memory. I've tested this by allocating a godly amount of memory to a VM, and rather than lock the whole system up, windows tells you it has run out of memory and then the VM just fails to start.
The alternative is to stick the page file on the HDD instead, which has problems you otherwise wouldn't expect. Since my HDD rarely sees activity, it powers down on occasion. If paging occurs, it will have to spin back up just to maybe write a kilobyte or two, meanwhile, your whole system pauses. Yes you can disable hdd spindown, but I prefer not to because I like lower power bills (yeah I take lots of measures to lower my power bill, and no I'm not an environmentalist.)
If you ever played an RPG, you notice over time how it ends up being that little numbers add up to big numbers (think WOW where you go out of your way to add these gems that just add little bits of stats.) Same thing applies to your electricity bill, a few watts here and there add up to big watts. My power bill is only $3 per day.
My BS detector is detecting major BS
Heres what you do when you make outlandish claims that you have somehow figured something out that the rest of us have not
You provide your system specs
You provide what FPS you are getting
You provide what FPS you were getting before your "optimizations"
You provide pics or it didnt happen
Until then my opinion is that you are getting the same FPS as the rest of us ('maybe' 1 or 2 fps more due to your optimizations (unlikely) and most likely 1-2 FPS worse), and the only reason you say your FPS is fine is because either you have an awesome PC and/or your standards are low.
If you want to find all entities in a given radius around an entity, for instance to find something a turret could fire on, does the engine then
<ul><li>go through a list of all entities currently in the game, calculate their distance to the requesting entity and return those that are in range</li><li>or the same as above, but the list is sorted so that all dynamic entities (as opposed to static ones) start after a specific index and thus can be iterated faster</li><li>or the same as above, but in addition to distance does it also filter the entities based on additional properties like being hidden from rendering</li><li>or use the collision hash to find close entities based on the collision data, though this calculation gets more and more expensive the bigger the search radius is?</li></ul>
As of now, performance seems to get quite worse lategame compared to early game, and since there aren't necessarily more entities visible at a time to a player in a given location than there were early game, my only guess would be that even the entities that are not visible are somehow adding to the client's computations with their logic.
The problem with software occlusion culling is that any dynamic entities that are on the map get rendered regardless of where they are on the map. The areas that are rendered, depending on your location, are calculated at the time the mapmaker compiles their map. Because the calculations are done at the time the map is compiled, it cannot account for dynamic entites, therefore it renders them no matter where they are. <u> Could you imagine having to render the entirety of the infestation at all times?</u>
Whereas hardware occlusion culling is done on the fly by the hardware and doesn't have that problem with dynamic entities. Albiet, at the cost of hardware processing power.
I don't know what world you live in, but powernodes and infestation have quite a substantial effect on gameplay and are more than just merely for visuals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont understand why you are talking about "software vs hardware" occlusion culling, it seems you are referring to pre-calculated vs real time occlusion culling? Of course pre calculating stuff is faster to execute, but my point was this, and in general the dynamic entities of the game arent the 'reason' for bad performance. The reason is the design decisions that were made and a general lack of parallelization. Yes its hard, especially in games, but i refuse to believe much of the game couldnt be spread amongst more threads, especially if it weren't for LUA.
My comment about the gameplay was merely in response to you saying the look of dynamic infestation was a big reason why you bought the game... the "look", of course they affect gameplay, albiet i believe less than you think. Both NS1 and NS2-beta did fine without them, infact the game was less linear and some believe more fun.
I just wanted to point out the insanity in this post for everyone who flipped past it. "Im jealous you get good fps, so please go back to low fps"
Infestation and power nodes subtract strategic possibilities and make the game stale and entrenched while adding nothing to the game.
<b>Wrong. </b>
As an alien, you can destroy a powernode to remove the power from marine buildings so they can no longer phase thru. . Or you can destroy the node to black out the lights making the marines easy targets. As a commander or marine grunt you have to be mindful of your powernodes because of the possibilties for the aliens to take advantage. You can also destroy a power node and camp it and wait for unsuspecting marines to start repairing it and kill em while they are occupied and etc......... Power nodes add strategic possibilities.
With infestation, as a marine you can strategically destroy a given cysts and block the expansion of infestation. When you destroy a cyst in a good spot, it turns 'off' all the other cysts that are after it. There was one game where I did this and the alien commander kept having to put a new cyst down and I kept destroying it over and over, completely occupying the alien commanders time. He couldn't do anything while all the others cysts were turned off.
With infestation, on either side, you basically know what areas either side controls. As a marine, you are going to approach an area differently compared to when the area is full of infestation or has none at all, this is the same on the alien side as well.
Infestation also forces the alien commander to think more strategically on where he should expand to.
These are just off the top of my head.
Anyone who thinks they don't add strategic value has no opinion worth a grain of salt.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder what percentage of your posts are just like this one. Focusing not on the topic at hand, but rather choosing to talk about other people's understanding of the issue at hand, and how lacking it is. Don't have the time indeed.
I've been posting less and less on here, as some of the beta posters may have noticed. I'm tired of every discussion on these forums being clogged up because every new person posting resetting it to zero. I'm tired of having to explain every basic little detail. I guess I'm plain tired of trying to get anything across on here, because it is utterly futile and a waste of time. Reading Savant's spamming mindless drivel page after page in every thread is sucking the life out of me, and I've had enough. This will be the last post I write here, outside of my own threads.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite simply you are wrong and just refuse to admit it. Most likely you are just someone from NS1 who can't stand the new features. Powernodes and Infestation changes the way in how buildings work and how they are placed compared to NS1, this actually ADDS strategy to the gameplay, it doesn't limit it.
All games have central pivotal design choices. These choices are not made for balance or for gameplay reasons, they are made for aesthetic reasons. Not even visual aesthetics, but conceptual aesthetics. Infestation and power is an example of one of these choices. You don't remove these in order to fix the game, these are the game. You fix the game in such a way that these remain unchanged. To remove infestation and power at this point would be to remove what natural selection 2 has become.