I don't really agree with the OP. There are a few limitations as far as cysts. arcs, macs, and drifters go, but that's generally solved with one ramp or stairway. Also NS1 didn't have an alien comm, when you have to get in the hive it's kind of a pain to have to go out of your way to get to it, and sort of an inconvenience for the marine team. I've played around with the editor a little and it seems like there's a lot you can do with it, I just think more creative people are needed to make some good maps. HL already had a very large modding community that were experienced with creating maps. With NS2 you have to learn a whole different set of tools so it might take some time.
While I agree in principle with many of the OP's points, what's the alternative?
<b>Ladders:</b> Yeah we had more ladders in NS1, as they did in the original TFC. When TFC became TF2, ladders were gone. (although some custom mappers have worked in alternates) The same has happened in NS2.
For sake of NS2, let forget about non-lifeform entities for now. Do we want EXOs, Onos and Fade taking ladders? Seriously? Can you imagine how silly it would look for an EXO to be climbing a ladder? I loved the old designs, especially maps like Nancy and Hera etc with some of the 'crosstown express' vents that seemed to traverse the entire map. Places like the red room. Yeah I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss that stuff. The problem is how to reconcile it. Even with some kind of 'vertical lift' alternative, getting it to work effectively would be a significant task.
Yeah it limits mappers, but what is the alternative?
<b>Viewing range: </b>While I also agree, I also remember some maps had areas that were so far removed from the 'top level' that the commander had a hell of a time seeing all that distance away. This could potentially be dealt with if they could incorporate a 'zoom' function to allow a commander to zoom up/down in any given area. So the limit could stay in place, but there is greater flexibility. However, given the performance issues we face now, it would be suicide to increase it any further without examining the impact.
<b>Tech points: </b> I'm of a split mind on this. While it did give more 'variety', the problem was that maps had to be balanced taking into consideration that any spot could be a 'command chair' spot. The red room is a perfect example of an area where the mapper never intended to have relocation. To be fair the hives were always restricted to 'tech points', it was only the comm chair that wasn't.
However, the downside to having a mobile command chair is that you have just given the aliens another potential hive location for free. Back in NS1 you could relocate to a hive and that would limit the aliens to two hives maximum. In NS2 they could easily have 3 hives in no time at all, with hives to spare. Then you have the issue of the marine tech that is limited to the number of tech points you occupy. Would having two mobile command chairs sitting side by side not defeat that? A mobile command chair would only be a liability in NS2 as it stands. To bring it back in we'd have to redesign all the maps, as well as redesign how the marine tech would work without it.
<!--quoteo(post=2060162:date=Jan 14 2013, 07:18 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 14 2013, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really agree with the OP. There are a few limitations as far as cysts. arcs, macs, and drifters go, but that's generally solved with one ramp or stairway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made it very clear in my posts that NS2 maps are "made for wheelchairs". Imagine in real life trying to construct a 3 level office complex made exclusively for people are handicapped, you'd end up with a very different building.
<!--quoteo(post=2060288:date=Jan 13 2013, 08:22 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 13 2013, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I made it very clear in my posts that NS2 maps are "made for wheelchairs". Imagine in real life trying to construct a 3 level office complex made exclusively for people are handicapped, you'd end up with a very different building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine a building that has no stairs and only ladders... I can... it's called a submarine *shudder*
But really stairs also work just fine like in Atrium in Summit, there's a stair case you can cyst down easily. I'm positive that there will be some more great maps soon, it just takes time for people to learn the tools.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited January 2013
Except for the raised hives, which could easily be added, all of the complex geometry you're talking about could easily be done. Areas such as central drilling in mineshaft have the level-over-level design and custom maps such as ns2_goliath have much more complex raised levels/changing elevation.
The official maps are similar because that's the design path UWE choose, not because its impossible to do anything else.
Rmember, the biggest difference between NS1 maps and NS2 maps is now-a-days we can make maps that *look* like something.
NS1 maps looked like MAPS, made for a GAME. The theme was 'spacey' ... thats it. They were made by people (I watched one) who spent most of the time thinking 'what do I place here to make it interesting, oh a vent and a 20' water hole' ... the reasoning was 'fun.'
NS2 maps are supposed to look like *things*, a docking station, a refinary. The reasoning is 'consistent, themed location.'
Sorry, but for a LONG TIME games have been sacrificing 'fun' for 'graphics' ... it's nothing new sorry.
<!--quoteo(post=2060311:date=Jan 14 2013, 04:07 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 14 2013, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rmember, the biggest difference between NS1 maps and NS2 maps is now-a-days we can make maps that *look* like something.
NS1 maps looked like MAPS, made for a GAME. The theme was 'spacey' ... thats it. They were made by people (I watched one) who spent most of the time thinking 'what do I place here to make it interesting, oh a vent and a 20' water hole' ... the reasoning was 'fun.'
NS2 maps are supposed to look like *things*, a docking station, a refinary. The reasoning is 'consistent, themed location.'
Sorry, but for a LONG TIME games have been sacrificing 'fun' for 'graphics' ... it's nothing new sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
absolute garbage, every ns1 map had a theme. hera had the same theme as summit/docking, bast and machina were both mining ships, nancy was another spaceship, altair was a underwater research facility, it even had a submarine bay in it, tanith was a waste treatment facility, origin was a research facility where they studied the origin of kharaa, nothing didn't have a specific theme but it looked like the interior of a power plant.
<!--quoteo(post=2060302:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for the raised hives, which could easily be added<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how? create a statue like elevated structure with a techpoint on top of it? how's is the marine comm going to jump in the CC then? park some fire trucks around it?
<!--quoteo(post=2060302:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all of the complex geometry you're talking about could easily be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's like saying "cars can easily get away with 3 wheels". The game simply doesn't work with complex structuring because of the cysts/macs/arcs/drifter and most importantly, power nodes. Cysting alone for the allien khomm would be extremely difficult, infact, alot of ppl are already complaining about cysting in central drilling (mineshaft) and generator (dockings).
<!--quoteo(post=2060302:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The official maps are similar because that's the design path UWE choose<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
u know why? because UWE knows full well that the game design wouldn't work with complex strucutres with major elevations. Thanks for proving my point.
2nding for garbage post by OnosFactory. NS1 maps had amazing themes, environment and atmosphere, while still being great to play. Damn I miss those old maps.
<!--quoteo(post=2060322:date=Jan 14 2013, 05:25 PM:name=Hivelord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hivelord @ Jan 14 2013, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2nding for garbage post by OnosFactory. NS1 maps had amazing themes, environment and atmosphere, while still being great to play. Damn I miss those old maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
anyone who's played NS1 extensively would tell you that the old maps are way better than what we got today in NS2. It's not nostalgia, it's not being old school, it's a fact.
<!--quoteo(post=2060321:date=Jan 14 2013, 08:24 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->u know why? because UWE knows full well that the game design wouldn't work with complex strucutres with major elevations. Thanks for proving my point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Central Drilling already disproves your point. I don't know why you are still trying to make it.
<!--quoteo(post=2060325:date=Jan 13 2013, 11:33 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 13 2013, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Central Drilling already disproves your point. I don't know why you are still trying to make it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since they moved that res node across to the deposit side so it can be arc'd from depo I really don't know why half that room exists anymore, I also don't think it has ###### on your average NS1 map, the map with the 2 elevators in it alone has more height depth than 2-3 NS2 maps added together.
I thought onos fact post was stupid as well at first but I believe he's trying to say the NS1 mappers focus was on "lets see what crazy ###### we can put here" as opposed to "it's called mineshaft so it will be a mineshaft" and that graffics are trumping gameplay, meaning as long as the map looks like a mineshaft they don't give a ###### about the gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2060297:date=Jan 13 2013, 08:02 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 13 2013, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine a building that has no stairs and only ladders... I can... it's called a submarine *shudder*
But really stairs also work just fine like in Atrium in Summit, there's a stair case you can cyst down easily. I'm positive that there will be some more great maps soon, it just takes time for people to learn the tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a submarine is not a building
and it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools .... unless you have no experience in mapping what so ever.
<!--quoteo(post=2060325:date=Jan 14 2013, 05:33 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 14 2013, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Central Drilling already disproves your point. I don't know why you are still trying to make it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what piss me off on this board, you have a bunch of noobs who's never played ns1 and pretend like they know sh!t.
Central drilling doesn't mean jack. Can you create a layer underneath another layer in ns2 maps? like the tunnel that connects double and maint hive in ns_origin, like the tunnel that connects feedwater hive and water treatment in ns_bast and like the 3 layered sewer outside maint hive in ns_hera? can you create a 40 feet high super structure where marines can set up a base on? hell, a structure with that type of elevation is completely out of the comm's LOS in ns2 due to its sh!tty engine limitations. Oh and try to cyst your way up to the viaduct in ns_nothing, good luck with that sh!t. But you probably have no idea about any of these maps I've just mentioned anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2060329:date=Jan 14 2013, 08:42 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 08:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is what piss me off on this board, you have a bunch of noobs who's never played ns1 and pretend like they know sh!t.
Central drilling doesn't mean jack. Can you create a layer underneath another layer in ns2 maps? like the tunnel that connects double and maint hive in ns_origin, like the tunnel that connects feedwater hive and water treatment in ns_bast and like the 3 layered sewer outside maint hive in ns_hera? can you create a 40 feet high super structure where marines can set up a base on? hell, a structure with that type of elevation is completely out of the comm's LOS in ns2 due to its sh!tty engine limitations. Oh and try to cyst your way up to the viaduct in ns_nothing, good luck with that sh!t. But you probably have no idea about any of these maps I've just mentioned anyway.
/smfh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how the marine commander's view has changed from NS1 to NS2. Where do these imaginary limitations come from exactly? I think the anger you are clearly displaying is clouding your better judgement. There is absolutely nothing restricting any of these from existing in NS2 other than the chosen design path the devs took.
An example is the 3 layer maintenance area leading into maintenance hive on Hera. The vast majority of the pipes there are superfluous, leading to the same exact area. The only thing they serve to do is break up forces and divert them in different directions. Which is fine, it had its uses in NS1, and it provided many enjoyable gaming experiences. However, it breaks flow, and takes attention away from the combat aspect of the game. NS2 is much more focused on fast paced and continuous player vs player action. Whether you prefer that or NS1s slower paced, more strategical approach is personal opinion. However, that does not mean map design is suddenly limited by imaginary engine and mechanic issues. It isn't. The maps can and will be created, if community members are willing to do it.
Its also important to note that this is no longer a mod, but an official release by a business. This means that certain concrete game mechanics must be delivered. So where NS1 would at times obscure one level to provide vision of another, NS2 cannot. This is simply an example of bad design in the original, that was updated and standardized in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2060332:date=Jan 14 2013, 05:53 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 14 2013, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me how the marine commander's view has changed from NS1 to NS2. Where do these imaginary limitations come from exactly? I think the anger you are clearly displaying is clouding your better judgement. There is absolutely nothing restricting any of these from existing in NS2 other than the chosen design path the devs took.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even <b><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><u><i>PLAYED</i></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> ns1?! How is the comm view changed in ns2? How about the fact that the comm in ns1 is placed WAY higher up in the air compared to ns2? In ns2 the comm won't even be able to see the viaduct because it's outside its LOS.
Man I'm talking to a brick wall here. How do you mute people on this board?
<!--quoteo(post=2060334:date=Jan 14 2013, 08:59 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you even <b><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><u><i>PLAYED</i></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> ns1?! How is the comm view changed in ns2? How about the fact that the comm in ns1 is placed WAY higher up in the air compared to ns2? In ns2 the comm won't even be able to see the viaduct because it's outside its LOS.
Man I'm talking to a brick wall here. How do you mute people on this board?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the commander's view height is determined entirely by the map right? I've already recreated the entire layout of ns_nothing, and trust me, its all feasible and viewable from the commander's perspective.
Sure, some elevators had to be replaced by ramps, but honestly the elevators were awful for game flow, and very hard to balance properly.
You know what I want to see - Eventually have the ability for the commander to change the vertical "level" he/she is building stuff on. Everything is built from this top-down interface, which is fine for most things, but then you can't build something below/above a surface it automatically builds on. If there's a tunnel underneath another room, you might not be able to build there because it builds in the room above instead. You can't do things like having a long spiral staircase (unless it's radius gets smaller and smaller) due to the fact there'd be a massive dead-zone where you can't get medpacks (actually, that does sound kinda cool), and you wouldn't be able to cyst up it. It just limits map design quite a lot. If you have one thing above/below another thing, whichever part you can't build on needs to be insignificant enough for it to not matter. You know what would be awesome... multi-story maps. Like an underground research facility that has been infested by aliens. Marines start on the top and aliens on the bottom, and you have to keep on going down levels further into alien territory. Unfortunately, the game just doesn't support something like that.
<!--quoteo(post=2060346:date=Jan 14 2013, 06:56 PM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 14 2013, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what I want to see - Eventually have the ability for the commander to change the vertical "level" he/she is building stuff on. Everything is built from this top-down interface, which is fine for most things, but then you can't build something below/above a surface it automatically builds on. If there's a tunnel underneath another room, you might not be able to build there because it builds in the room above instead. You can't do things like having a long spiral staircase (unless it's radius gets smaller and smaller) due to the fact there'd be a massive dead-zone where you can't get medpacks (actually, that does sound kinda cool), and you wouldn't be able to cyst up it. It just limits map design quite a lot. If you have one thing above/below another thing, whichever part you can't build on needs to be insignificant enough for it to not matter. You know what would be awesome... multi-story maps. Like an underground research facility that has been infested by aliens. Marines start on the top and aliens on the bottom, and you have to keep on going down levels further into alien territory. Unfortunately, the game just doesn't support something like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah that can be easily achieved with a "vertical zoom" for the commander, and it'd be freaking awesome! The problem is that the players will have a hard time reading the 2D minimap.
I'm not going to take part in the argument here, because there is a lot of subjectivity going on (the notion that NS1 maps were better than NS2 maps is a matter of taste, even if I wholeheartedly agree with it).
What I will say is that, regardless of what is possible or not, in my opinion the current NS2 maps are a far cry from the greatness I remember when I played NS3.0. However, NS1 had <i>years</i> of development in it, from a modding team that may or may not have been far more receptive to community maps than the <i>company</i> we have today.
My point being, I feel UWE is trying to be more stable and grounded with their current map design. I think they're a little "samey" deliberately; if the maps were wildly different, with wildly distinct strategies and options it'd make the already steep skill curve devastating for new players. Just look at how many people post about how difficult the game is right now.
So, I understand why they may have done it. But I sincerely hope they begin to make maps that can at least approach the depth and excellence that we've been spoiled by.
As a tangent, I feel Red Orchestra 2 did the same thing; they wanted to represent Stalingrad only; they also wanted to make the game a little more appealing to a broader audience. So they downsized the maps and made them mostly close-quarters (to represent the bitter house-to-house fighting in Stalingrad better). This had a similar effect on RO1 fans as it did on NS1 fans here; it wasn't well-received. However, Tripwire (RO2 devs) have begun to port RO1 maps, as well as make new ones that resemble the open, large maps we were used to in the original game.
I feel UWE will do the same thing. I'm sure their new maps will begin to resemble maps from their original game. At least, I hope so.
1. Ns_Hera: Although I liked the layout of the processing chamber in Hera is was very alien (or at least onos) unfriendly. Marines could siege Data Core Delta from the upper corner (under the vent). If this was the aliens only hive it would be gg. If they had a second hive, then a gorge could bilebomb from the vent (until he was hit with some nade laucher in the face). If the alien team had some decent fades and a good lerk they could defend it, but in most cases it would be a succesfull siege. Onos couldn't do anything here, since he would be scared to pieces when he was halfway up the ladder. So imo this chamber would need a rework anyway in NS2 to balance it out.
2. Ns_Origin: Imo Vent Hive was a really bad hive to start with. If marines locked double res with the only real exit (which is the ladder pit in the screenshot) the aliens were kinda fooked from the start. Again, an onos would be useless here and fades would also have a hard time. A remake should have a ramp here and should lift the whole Vent Hive room and make a real second exit (the only other onces were vents).
3. Ns_Nothing: In this case I agree. There is no way lowering it a bit would make it possible?
4. Ns_Bast: Same as above. Although I think a rework with ramps can work
5. Ns_Bast (water tunnel): I'm not sure how water works in NS2 so can't really comment on this.
The OP and everyone agreeing with him are retarded... i said it... retarded. They have no mapping experience and believe that there will never be any great maps for NS2.
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.
<!--quoteo(post=2060348:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:00 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah that can be easily achieved with a "vertical zoom" for the commander, and it'd be freaking awesome! The problem is that the players will have a hard time reading the 2D minimap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah. Didn't even think of the minimap. Would be a bit confusing :D
<!--quoteo(post=2060360:date=Jan 14 2013, 04:25 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 14 2013, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The OP and everyone agreeing with him are retarded... i said it... retarded. They have no mapping experience and believe that there will never be any great maps for NS2.
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is anybody actually saying that NS2 maps and the mapping community isn't good? Certainly not the OP. Also, nobody is saying that there isn't or won't be great maps in NS2, even with the current limitations.
He's only saying that certain features of NS2 gameplay limit what can be done in NS2 maps as opposed to what could be done in NS1 maps. And he's right. MAC's, ARCs, drifters require 'paths' to be open, which was not the case in NS1. Cysts also require paths to be open - at least, not have too large jumps in height, and otherwise infestation cannot be spread past certain areas (which is a huge problem given the areas infestation can spread to are the only locations alien structures can be built). Tying hives to the same locations command stations can be built at mean they can only be built on the floor, as they're subject to the same limitations as the command station, when they previously weren't. The draw distance also seems to be much smaller, which limits the size of "open spaces" or even lengths of hallways, which might not be good from a gameplay perspective anyway, is still a limitation.
Maybe refrain from using derogatory terms like 'retarded' if you don't even understand what's being said in the thread. One person did a garbage post that ns2 maps sacrifice fun for aesthetics, but that is in no relation to what the thread is about. The concerns about limitations are all valid. Perhaps say something intelligent and constructive about the subject at hand before you attack those who actually have.
Edit: actually, you actually have said something moderately constructive in the first reply to the thread. Dunno how you could have misunderstood the intention of the thread since that post though. It's not like the thread title is "NS2 maps suck".
<!--quoteo(post=2060324:date=Jan 14 2013, 01:27 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 14 2013, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->anyone who's played NS1 extensively would tell you that the old maps are way better than what we got today in NS2. It's not nostalgia, it's not being old school, it's a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with all your points, but we've had many years watching NS2 grow to what it is. Your post on these three points are very valid, and I feel like they were completely overlooked by UWE.... only because they were looking at their game from a WHOLE different perspective.
We unknowingly sacrificed the range of environments in NS2..
and,|strofix|
I enjoyed NS1 because the games did not funnel players in to combat at every corner. If you wanted that, there was NS Combat. NS1 enjoyed a great variety of challenges that kept players engaged-
If you got on an elevator in NS1, you better be aware of the consequences of being in a confined space.. just like climbing a ladder... I never wanted a sterile environment , and I challenge Charlie to look back to the past and embrace the best of the best.
I think it's premature to say that community maps in NS2 won't be every bit as awesome as original NS1 maps - in time. HOWEVER, I agree that the limitations in NS2 (which are different from the limitations that were there in NS1!) mean that those maps won't be the same.
While I am eagerly awaiting the appearance of some of the original maps in NS2, I'm probably more eagerly awaiting what new and exciting directions we may be taken in by the community this time around.
There's no point in whining about NS2 limitations *BEFORE* we've seen what the mappers can do! Honestly, Amb, these last few posts of yours sound less well constructed and more 'wah wah wah I wanna play NS1 again.' I absolutely accept some of the valid arguments you made about height and hive limitations in your opening post, but surely the best thing to do rather than complain about it is to get mapping and show us what NEW stuff this engine can give us in terms of map design and gameplay!
<!--quoteo(post=2060412:date=Jan 14 2013, 09:44 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 14 2013, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's premature to say that community maps in NS2 won't be every bit as awesome as original NS1 maps - in time. HOWEVER, I agree that the limitations in NS2 (which are different from the limitations that were there in NS1!) mean that those maps won't be the same.
While I am eagerly awaiting the appearance of some of the original maps in NS2, I'm probably more eagerly awaiting what new and exciting directions we may be taken in by the community this time around.
There's no point in whining about NS2 limitations *BEFORE* we've seen what the mappers can do! Honestly, Amb, these last few posts of yours sound less well constructed and more 'wah wah wah I wanna play NS1 again.' I absolutely accept some of the valid arguments you made about height and hive limitations in your opening post, but surely the best thing to do rather than complain about it is to get mapping and show us what NEW stuff this engine can give us in terms of map design and gameplay!
Just trying to be positive ;)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Roo.
I was lamenting the loss of things like the Red Room as well, but not mobile com chairs. I liked hidden siege spots like red room. I did not like trying to dig a CC out of red room like a Tick.
I do think it might be a bit early to lament the loss of clever NS1 maps though.
<!--quoteo(post=2060416:date=Jan 14 2013, 05:00 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 14 2013, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was lamenting the loss of things like the Red Room as well, but not mobile com chairs. I liked hidden siege spots like red room. I did not like trying to dig a CC out of red room like a Tick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, good old Red Room reloc. Those were the days.
<!--quoteo(post=2060422:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM:name=DTE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DTE @ Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amb, I lawled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=2060422:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM:name=DTE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DTE @ Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or even reloc on that catwalk above Via Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it'd be pretty funny if that map was remade for NS2, imagine a jet packer ninja drop a PG on the viaduct and the alien commander goes "well i tried to cover up the viaduct with infestation but there's no ramps for the cysts to reach that high, sorry folks"
Comments
<b>Ladders:</b> Yeah we had more ladders in NS1, as they did in the original TFC. When TFC became TF2, ladders were gone. (although some custom mappers have worked in alternates) The same has happened in NS2.
For sake of NS2, let forget about non-lifeform entities for now. Do we want EXOs, Onos and Fade taking ladders? Seriously? Can you imagine how silly it would look for an EXO to be climbing a ladder? I loved the old designs, especially maps like Nancy and Hera etc with some of the 'crosstown express' vents that seemed to traverse the entire map. Places like the red room. Yeah I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss that stuff. The problem is how to reconcile it. Even with some kind of 'vertical lift' alternative, getting it to work effectively would be a significant task.
Yeah it limits mappers, but what is the alternative?
<b>Viewing range: </b>While I also agree, I also remember some maps had areas that were so far removed from the 'top level' that the commander had a hell of a time seeing all that distance away. This could potentially be dealt with if they could incorporate a 'zoom' function to allow a commander to zoom up/down in any given area. So the limit could stay in place, but there is greater flexibility. However, given the performance issues we face now, it would be suicide to increase it any further without examining the impact.
<b>Tech points: </b> I'm of a split mind on this. While it did give more 'variety', the problem was that maps had to be balanced taking into consideration that any spot could be a 'command chair' spot. The red room is a perfect example of an area where the mapper never intended to have relocation. To be fair the hives were always restricted to 'tech points', it was only the comm chair that wasn't.
However, the downside to having a mobile command chair is that you have just given the aliens another potential hive location for free. Back in NS1 you could relocate to a hive and that would limit the aliens to two hives maximum. In NS2 they could easily have 3 hives in no time at all, with hives to spare. Then you have the issue of the marine tech that is limited to the number of tech points you occupy. Would having two mobile command chairs sitting side by side not defeat that? A mobile command chair would only be a liability in NS2 as it stands. To bring it back in we'd have to redesign all the maps, as well as redesign how the marine tech would work without it.
Not simple at the point we're at now.
I made it very clear in my posts that NS2 maps are "made for wheelchairs". Imagine in real life trying to construct a 3 level office complex made exclusively for people are handicapped, you'd end up with a very different building.
Imagine a building that has no stairs and only ladders... I can... it's called a submarine *shudder*
But really stairs also work just fine like in Atrium in Summit, there's a stair case you can cyst down easily. I'm positive that there will be some more great maps soon, it just takes time for people to learn the tools.
The official maps are similar because that's the design path UWE choose, not because its impossible to do anything else.
NS1 maps looked like MAPS, made for a GAME. The theme was 'spacey' ... thats it. They were made by people (I watched one) who spent most of the time thinking 'what do I place here to make it interesting, oh a vent and a 20' water hole' ... the reasoning was 'fun.'
NS2 maps are supposed to look like *things*, a docking station, a refinary. The reasoning is 'consistent, themed location.'
Sorry, but for a LONG TIME games have been sacrificing 'fun' for 'graphics' ... it's nothing new sorry.
NS1 maps looked like MAPS, made for a GAME. The theme was 'spacey' ... thats it. They were made by people (I watched one) who spent most of the time thinking 'what do I place here to make it interesting, oh a vent and a 20' water hole' ... the reasoning was 'fun.'
NS2 maps are supposed to look like *things*, a docking station, a refinary. The reasoning is 'consistent, themed location.'
Sorry, but for a LONG TIME games have been sacrificing 'fun' for 'graphics' ... it's nothing new sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
absolute garbage, every ns1 map had a theme. hera had the same theme as summit/docking, bast and machina were both mining ships, nancy was another spaceship, altair was a underwater research facility, it even had a submarine bay in it, tanith was a waste treatment facility, origin was a research facility where they studied the origin of kharaa, nothing didn't have a specific theme but it looked like the interior of a power plant.
how? create a statue like elevated structure with a techpoint on top of it? how's is the marine comm going to jump in the CC then? park some fire trucks around it?
<!--quoteo(post=2060302:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all of the complex geometry you're talking about could easily be done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's like saying "cars can easily get away with 3 wheels". The game simply doesn't work with complex structuring because of the cysts/macs/arcs/drifter and most importantly, power nodes. Cysting alone for the allien khomm would be extremely difficult, infact, alot of ppl are already complaining about cysting in central drilling (mineshaft) and generator (dockings).
<!--quoteo(post=2060302:date=Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 14 2013, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The official maps are similar because that's the design path UWE choose<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
u know why? because UWE knows full well that the game design wouldn't work with complex strucutres with major elevations. Thanks for proving my point.
anyone who's played NS1 extensively would tell you that the old maps are way better than what we got today in NS2. It's not nostalgia, it's not being old school, it's a fact.
Central Drilling already disproves your point. I don't know why you are still trying to make it.
Since they moved that res node across to the deposit side so it can be arc'd from depo I really don't know why half that room exists anymore, I also don't think it has ###### on your average NS1 map, the map with the 2 elevators in it alone has more height depth than 2-3 NS2 maps added together.
I thought onos fact post was stupid as well at first but I believe he's trying to say the NS1 mappers focus was on "lets see what crazy ###### we can put here" as opposed to "it's called mineshaft so it will be a mineshaft" and that graffics are trumping gameplay, meaning as long as the map looks like a mineshaft they don't give a ###### about the gameplay.
But really stairs also work just fine like in Atrium in Summit, there's a stair case you can cyst down easily. I'm positive that there will be some more great maps soon, it just takes time for people to learn the tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a submarine is not a building
and it takes 2 weeks to learn the tools .... unless you have no experience in mapping what so ever.
do you have autism or something ?
this is what piss me off on this board, you have a bunch of noobs who's never played ns1 and pretend like they know sh!t.
Central drilling doesn't mean jack. Can you create a layer underneath another layer in ns2 maps? like the tunnel that connects double and maint hive in ns_origin, like the tunnel that connects feedwater hive and water treatment in ns_bast and like the 3 layered sewer outside maint hive in ns_hera? can you create a 40 feet high super structure where marines can set up a base on? hell, a structure with that type of elevation is completely out of the comm's LOS in ns2 due to its sh!tty engine limitations. Oh and try to cyst your way up to the viaduct in ns_nothing, good luck with that sh!t. But you probably have no idea about any of these maps I've just mentioned anyway.
/smfh
Central drilling doesn't mean jack. Can you create a layer underneath another layer in ns2 maps? like the tunnel that connects double and maint hive in ns_origin, like the tunnel that connects feedwater hive and water treatment in ns_bast and like the 3 layered sewer outside maint hive in ns_hera? can you create a 40 feet high super structure where marines can set up a base on? hell, a structure with that type of elevation is completely out of the comm's LOS in ns2 due to its sh!tty engine limitations. Oh and try to cyst your way up to the viaduct in ns_nothing, good luck with that sh!t. But you probably have no idea about any of these maps I've just mentioned anyway.
/smfh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how the marine commander's view has changed from NS1 to NS2. Where do these imaginary limitations come from exactly? I think the anger you are clearly displaying is clouding your better judgement. There is absolutely nothing restricting any of these from existing in NS2 other than the chosen design path the devs took.
An example is the 3 layer maintenance area leading into maintenance hive on Hera. The vast majority of the pipes there are superfluous, leading to the same exact area. The only thing they serve to do is break up forces and divert them in different directions. Which is fine, it had its uses in NS1, and it provided many enjoyable gaming experiences. However, it breaks flow, and takes attention away from the combat aspect of the game. NS2 is much more focused on fast paced and continuous player vs player action. Whether you prefer that or NS1s slower paced, more strategical approach is personal opinion. However, that does not mean map design is suddenly limited by imaginary engine and mechanic issues. It isn't. The maps can and will be created, if community members are willing to do it.
Its also important to note that this is no longer a mod, but an official release by a business. This means that certain concrete game mechanics must be delivered. So where NS1 would at times obscure one level to provide vision of another, NS2 cannot. This is simply an example of bad design in the original, that was updated and standardized in NS2.
Have you even <b><!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><u><i>PLAYED</i></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> ns1?! How is the comm view changed in ns2? How about the fact that the comm in ns1 is placed WAY higher up in the air compared to ns2? In ns2 the comm won't even be able to see the viaduct because it's outside its LOS.
Man I'm talking to a brick wall here. How do you mute people on this board?
Man I'm talking to a brick wall here. How do you mute people on this board?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the commander's view height is determined entirely by the map right? I've already recreated the entire layout of ns_nothing, and trust me, its all feasible and viewable from the commander's perspective.
Sure, some elevators had to be replaced by ramps, but honestly the elevators were awful for game flow, and very hard to balance properly.
yeah that can be easily achieved with a "vertical zoom" for the commander, and it'd be freaking awesome! The problem is that the players will have a hard time reading the 2D minimap.
What I will say is that, regardless of what is possible or not, in my opinion the current NS2 maps are a far cry from the greatness I remember when I played NS3.0. However, NS1 had <i>years</i> of development in it, from a modding team that may or may not have been far more receptive to community maps than the <i>company</i> we have today.
My point being, I feel UWE is trying to be more stable and grounded with their current map design. I think they're a little "samey" deliberately; if the maps were wildly different, with wildly distinct strategies and options it'd make the already steep skill curve devastating for new players. Just look at how many people post about how difficult the game is right now.
So, I understand why they may have done it. But I sincerely hope they begin to make maps that can at least approach the depth and excellence that we've been spoiled by.
As a tangent, I feel Red Orchestra 2 did the same thing; they wanted to represent Stalingrad only; they also wanted to make the game a little more appealing to a broader audience. So they downsized the maps and made them mostly close-quarters (to represent the bitter house-to-house fighting in Stalingrad better). This had a similar effect on RO1 fans as it did on NS1 fans here; it wasn't well-received. However, Tripwire (RO2 devs) have begun to port RO1 maps, as well as make new ones that resemble the open, large maps we were used to in the original game.
I feel UWE will do the same thing. I'm sure their new maps will begin to resemble maps from their original game. At least, I hope so.
2. Ns_Origin: Imo Vent Hive was a really bad hive to start with. If marines locked double res with the only real exit (which is the ladder pit in the screenshot) the aliens were kinda fooked from the start. Again, an onos would be useless here and fades would also have a hard time. A remake should have a ramp here and should lift the whole Vent Hive room and make a real second exit (the only other onces were vents).
3. Ns_Nothing: In this case I agree. There is no way lowering it a bit would make it possible?
4. Ns_Bast: Same as above. Although I think a rework with ramps can work
5. Ns_Bast (water tunnel): I'm not sure how water works in NS2 so can't really comment on this.
6. Ns_Agora: Can imo be reworked succefully.
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.
Ah. Didn't even think of the minimap. Would be a bit confusing :D
<!--quoteo(post=2060360:date=Jan 14 2013, 04:25 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 14 2013, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The OP and everyone agreeing with him are retarded... i said it... retarded. They have no mapping experience and believe that there will never be any great maps for NS2.
Even with the extra things that need to be considered when mapping for NS2, the mapping community is incredible, have great imaginations and will still be able to make incredible maps that rival even ones from NS1.
It takes TIME to make these maps, you certainly can't expect them so soon after the games been released. Making maps for natural selection is the most demanding thing compared to other games I have ever seen because of their sheer size and complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is anybody actually saying that NS2 maps and the mapping community isn't good? Certainly not the OP. Also, nobody is saying that there isn't or won't be great maps in NS2, even with the current limitations.
He's only saying that certain features of NS2 gameplay limit what can be done in NS2 maps as opposed to what could be done in NS1 maps. And he's right. MAC's, ARCs, drifters require 'paths' to be open, which was not the case in NS1. Cysts also require paths to be open - at least, not have too large jumps in height, and otherwise infestation cannot be spread past certain areas (which is a huge problem given the areas infestation can spread to are the only locations alien structures can be built). Tying hives to the same locations command stations can be built at mean they can only be built on the floor, as they're subject to the same limitations as the command station, when they previously weren't. The draw distance also seems to be much smaller, which limits the size of "open spaces" or even lengths of hallways, which might not be good from a gameplay perspective anyway, is still a limitation.
Maybe refrain from using derogatory terms like 'retarded' if you don't even understand what's being said in the thread. One person did a garbage post that ns2 maps sacrifice fun for aesthetics, but that is in no relation to what the thread is about. The concerns about limitations are all valid. Perhaps say something intelligent and constructive about the subject at hand before you attack those who actually have.
Edit: actually, you actually have said something moderately constructive in the first reply to the thread. Dunno how you could have misunderstood the intention of the thread since that post though. It's not like the thread title is "NS2 maps suck".
I completely agree with all your points, but we've had many years watching NS2 grow to what it is. Your post on these three points are very valid, and I feel like they were completely overlooked by UWE.... only because they were looking at their game from a WHOLE different perspective.
We unknowingly sacrificed the range of environments in NS2..
and,|strofix|
I enjoyed NS1 because the games did not funnel players in to combat at every corner. If you wanted that, there was NS Combat. NS1 enjoyed a great variety of challenges that kept players engaged-
If you got on an elevator in NS1, you better be aware of the consequences of being in a confined space.. just like climbing a ladder... I never wanted a sterile environment , and I challenge Charlie to look back to the past and embrace the best of the best.
-Align<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
While I am eagerly awaiting the appearance of some of the original maps in NS2, I'm probably more eagerly awaiting what new and exciting directions we may be taken in by the community this time around.
There's no point in whining about NS2 limitations *BEFORE* we've seen what the mappers can do! Honestly, Amb, these last few posts of yours sound less well constructed and more 'wah wah wah I wanna play NS1 again.' I absolutely accept some of the valid arguments you made about height and hive limitations in your opening post, but surely the best thing to do rather than complain about it is to get mapping and show us what NEW stuff this engine can give us in terms of map design and gameplay!
Just trying to be positive ;)
Roo
While I am eagerly awaiting the appearance of some of the original maps in NS2, I'm probably more eagerly awaiting what new and exciting directions we may be taken in by the community this time around.
There's no point in whining about NS2 limitations *BEFORE* we've seen what the mappers can do! Honestly, Amb, these last few posts of yours sound less well constructed and more 'wah wah wah I wanna play NS1 again.' I absolutely accept some of the valid arguments you made about height and hive limitations in your opening post, but surely the best thing to do rather than complain about it is to get mapping and show us what NEW stuff this engine can give us in terms of map design and gameplay!
Just trying to be positive ;)
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Roo.
I was lamenting the loss of things like the Red Room as well, but not mobile com chairs. I liked hidden siege spots like red room. I did not like trying to dig a CC out of red room like a Tick.
I do think it might be a bit early to lament the loss of clever NS1 maps though.
<!--quoteo(post=2060416:date=Jan 14 2013, 05:00 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 14 2013, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was lamenting the loss of things like the Red Room as well, but not mobile com chairs. I liked hidden siege spots like red room. I did not like trying to dig a CC out of red room like a Tick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, good old Red Room reloc. Those were the days.
Or even reloc on that catwalk above Via Hive.
thank you.
<!--quoteo(post=2060422:date=Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM:name=DTE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DTE @ Jan 15 2013, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or even reloc on that catwalk above Via Hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it'd be pretty funny if that map was remade for NS2, imagine a jet packer ninja drop a PG on the viaduct and the alien commander goes "well i tried to cover up the viaduct with infestation but there's no ramps for the cysts to reach that high, sorry folks"