The bit that's untrue is the bit where the OP argues that any of the points raised constitute a 'severe limitation' of NS2's potential level design variety.
Yes all of the things you listed are true, no none of them are remotely relevant when it comes to designing good or interesting NS2 maps. No good level design hinges fundamentally on rooms being huge, hives being far off the ground unsupported, or ladders/elevators being the only way to traverse a space. All of those things are <i>bad</i> design choices. Huge unobstructed rooms makes things unbalanced in favor of marines due to making it very difficult for skulks to traverse the intervening space, or for aliens to effectively combat jetpacks. Hives being far off the ground without any floor access makes it much harder for marines to effectively attack the hive without heavy weapons support, making it far, far tougher in the early game if a gorge decides to evolve on top of it. And ladders/elevators as choke points are a very poor design choice, because they make too good a choke point without conventional routes to support them, and for them to affect cyst/drifter/mac pathing they would have to be unsupplemented by conventional routes.
Even were these specific mechanics <i>not</i> bad decisions, they can be worked around. Rooms can be made spacious enough and alien-unfriendly enough by adding some intelligent view blocking geometry between a series of very well connected large rooms, and things like chain fences allow marines to shoot without aliens being able to cross. Hives can be suspended on inaccessible platforms, and extremely good choke points can be created in many other ways than with elevators, such as excessively small doorways or poor room inter-connectivity. The functionality of all the mechanics are easily reproducible, though extremely ill-advised.
That the OP is making these points out to be a serious issue suggests a lack of understanding of level design, and their calling for popular support from 'ns1 vets' further suggests that the argument proposed is not the focus of the post, instead the post is an excuse to complain about NS2 and invite other people to do the same, the argument is simply a justification for an existing bias against the game.
Hence, why people react with hostility, there is no logical opposition to an argument which is not logical. The logical component of the argument is incorrect, but as it is not important, the OP's position of 'NS1 was better, NS2 sucks' is still held.
Get what wrong? The only thing you're contesting is the word "severe". Not only is the word entirely subjective, he probably didn't even think about it that much...
<!--quoteo(post=2061965:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:27 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 17 2013, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your point isn't that he's wrong, is it? All you're saying is that you can do other stuff instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OP's point: NS2 is limited in map design because of X,Y,Z.
My point: That's an irrelevant observation.
Surely you would think me an idiot if I made a thread complaining that NS2 doesn't let me switch the lighting to a one lightmap pixel per meter of map geometry model, because in my mind that was absolutely key to NS1's greatness.
You would obviously think that that's a ridiculous thing to complain about, because it's patently obvious that no sane person would want to do that and it would add nothing of value to the game.
This is a slightly less obvious example of the same issue.
By virtue of the fact that those NS1 maps were created in the first place, you should realise that it's not irrelevant... unless what you're arguing is that those NS1 rooms were actually crap and should never have been designed that way in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=2061970:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:35 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2013, 11:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP's point: NS2 is limited in map design because of X,Y,Z.
My point: That's an irrelevant observation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me: X, Y and Z in NS1 maps can't be replicated in NS2 due to limitations
You: NS2 maps aren't limited because you <b><u>DON'T HAVE TO</u></b> replicate X, Y and Z.
Seriously? Imagine some one says "hey dude you suck at NS" and your reply is "it's irrelevant because I don't have to play NS, I can be good at other games"
Maybe the exact details of the though process of Chris0132 is not so relevant either. No disrespect but I think we understood what you wanted to say and the rest is a bit of semantic nick-picking.
More importantly, how could UWE relax the current restrictions? For example, the current cysts system clearly still need some work, if they could at the same time allow for more freedom in the map design, everybody would be happy.
It is necessary for NS1 and NS2 rooms to have lighting, it is not necessary for them to both use an identical lighting model.
Similarly, it is necessary for NS1 and NS2 rooms to have things like some degree of choke points, some level visual variety and differing playstyles from room to room, and perhaps the occasional set-piece, though all of those can be basically lumped into the overall goal of 'levels must be interesting'.
As with the above however, it is not necessary for NS2 to have exactly the same choke points, visual cues, playstyles, and set pieces. It is in fact almost certainly a bad thing to have them be identical, because they've already been done like that. Thus they will be less interesting the second time around. Ideally new ones should be devised.
Furthermore, NS2 is a different game. People are slower, for one thing, so a 200 meter wide room would be a very bad idea in NS2, because it would take more time to cross. In NS1 it might be entirely practical, because it takes the same amount of time to cross as a 50 meter room might in NS2. Thus, in NS2, a 50 meter room equates to a 200 meter NS1 room in terms of functionality, and functionality is what matters when designing levels. Visuals are important, but ultimately it must work first, or else you get a pretty waste of time.
I'd also argue that it's very possible for parts of NS1 maps to be quite badly designed. Most maps and games do have a bunch of badly designed sections. Mapping is quite hit or miss, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, oftentimes it's not what you planned it to be. Perhaps I should make a thread complaining that I can't make the big rotating airlock door from.. ns_bast was it? That was a great decision.
<!--quoteo(post=2061973:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:43 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Me: X, Y and Z in NS1 maps can't be replicated in NS2 due to limitations
You: NS2 maps aren't limited because you <b><u>DON'T HAVE TO</u></b> replicate X, Y and Z.
Seriously? Imagine some one says "hey dude you suck at NS" and your reply is "it's irrelevant because I don't have to play NS, I can be good at other games"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That... makes perfect sense?
If you're good at other games, why do you need to be good at NS? If you are universally terrible at everything ever I can see that being cause for concern, but as long as you have a bunch of things you're good at, why does it matter if you're not good at one particular thing? Unless that thing is key to your continued existence or something, but NS, and recreating NS1 maps with painstaking exactitude, are not. If you're looking for an ambition, you can do a lot better. Why not make NS1 maps better, or learn to build spaceships and go to space and discover aliens and recreate NS1 in real life or something.
I can totally get that NS1 had some great gameplay in its maps, but you can replicate parts of that gameplay without replicating the map. If you want to replicate it exactly... Well you can't? NS2 is a different game, even if you could replicate the map it wouldn't play the same. Even if you played the map again in NS1 it wouldn't play the same, because you have different players, it's a different time, people have different ideas about videogames, and simple random brownian motion would make it all different. Isn't that the point of NS? That it's different every time you play?
Why the obsession with recreating an experience you've already had?
It's not the logic he's contesting, it's the manipulation of it to say something silly, given the context. Anyway, Yuuki's right - I know what you've been trying to say all along and I should stop poking holes.
came back to weigh in one more time. the only thing ns2 limits in map design is spacing. the guidelines (at least originally) said they wanted more room based combat and less hallway based combat. then they brought back sieges (mascs, arcs). this makes a room based approach difficult as you need to space out objective rooms appropriately so you can't hold multiple objectives from one siege-able room. you need hallways. that's the only thing that's really limiting. and really, that's just a personal gripe because i did things wrong when i started and now i have to build some hallways.
<!--quoteo(post=2061973:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:43 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously? Imagine some one says "hey dude you suck at NS" and your reply is "it's irrelevant because I don't have to play NS, I can be good at other games"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually its more like saying "hey dude you suck at NS because you can't aim", and his reply is "good aim is not the only way to be good at NS".
<!--quoteo(post=2061976:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:50 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 17 2013, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More importantly, how could UWE relax the current restrictions? For example, the current cysts system clearly still need some work, if they could at the same time allow for more freedom in the map design, everybody would be happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This still confuses me. Given that aliens cannot use ladders (and should never have been able to), and elevators do not exist, how exactly do cysts limit map design?
One map which corresponds on style of ns1 maps is Mineshaft, i feel sorry sometimes when people say that the map is too big and somehow unbalanced. Actually it's an oldschool map!
In my opinion, the most failed map currently is refinery, it's neither ns2 style or oldschool ns1 style. Refinery should have been as special as mineshaft, but it has somehow become really linear. Techpoint - corridor- RT - Techpoint - corridor - and the other side of the map.
Anyway, i have almost nothing against ns2's design, but i really miss that 'feeling lonely' 'scary' moments which we cannot feel anymore on ns2 cos of limitation of map design on ns2.
For example, i am pretty sure lots of you've often already felt lonely and scared on maps like ns_bast ns_altair(probably the biggest map of natural selection) ns_hera etc.. on almost all maps of original natural selection.
It's certainly because it wasn't linear, there were lots of environmental differences/variations, and also lots of level(floor). You must have felt really under pressure when you were on lower level on maps like origin, hera etc. It was pretty dynamic.
So i actually also miss really much such experiences. I say again, i have nothing against ns2's design, it fits actually for a stand-alone asymmetric game, but it's still true that we lost some dynamic moments cos of ns2's own design limitations.
Only map of ns2 which brings a kind of similar dynamic experiences that we had on ns1 is ns2_mineshaft
<!--quoteo(post=2061977:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:51 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2013, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore, NS2 is a different game. People are slower<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can I ask you a question, just a honest question, I don't mean to insult you or anything. Have you actually played NS1? or are you just pretending to be?
Both aliens and marines travel MUCH faster in NS2 and yet you're saying the complete opposite. Fire up NS1 right now and see how slow marines and skulks are. Hell, marine didn't even have sprint back then. Would you like me to load up FRAPS and record you a video to make ur life a tad easier? I play ns1 every day anyway, it's no hassle for me.
<!--quoteo(post=2061976:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:50 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 17 2013, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More importantly, how could UWE relax the current restrictions?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's precisely what the point of this thread is: what could UWE do to eliminate these limitations.
But hell, why would UWE care when they have hordes of zombies defending their weak product? Like what one guy said in the other thread "people on this forum are deliberately defending UWE's flaws as if they were intended designs".
<!--quoteo(post=2062015:date=Jan 17 2013, 03:10 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 17 2013, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This still confuses me. Given that aliens cannot use ladders (and should never have been able to), and elevators do not exist, how exactly do cysts limit map design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060998:date=Jan 15 2013, 11:30 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 15 2013, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts require that you have a relatively flat path from <i>every</i> alien starting hive to <i>every</i> natural RT, which make a lot of ground on most maps. NS1 maps could use more complex geometries because skulks could sneak everywhere, evolve a gorge and drop a RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure gorgy and onos movement, IA units, etc. limit also what you can do, but it doesn't mean cysts are not a limiting factor as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2062015:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens cannot use ladders<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, aliens can climb walls, can walk on ceilings, can leap 20 meters, can fly, can teleport, can cause earth quakers, but no way in hell can they climb those ladders. Must be a birth defect, dam the evolution.
<!--quoteo(post=2062015:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->elevators do not exist<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what's that big thing in elevator transfer in ns_tram?
<!--quoteo(post=2062071:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah, aliens can climb walls, can walk on ceilings, can leap 20 meters, can fly, can teleport, can cause earth quakers, but no way in hell can they climb those ladders. Must be a birth defect, dam the evolution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ladders were made with the human body in mind, that's why dogs and other 4 legged animals can't climb them. Their bodies are designed to do something completely different, how would a fade efficiently climb a ladder with no hands? Moreover, why would he when he can blink/shadowstep/double jump?
<!--quoteo(post=2062071:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what's that big thing in elevator transfer in ns_tram?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a non-functional elevator. He was referring to the actual entity from hammer editor where you could make a brush function as an elevator.
<!--quoteo(post=2062074:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:11 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 18 2013, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens were made with the human body in mind, that's why dogs and other 4 legged animals can't climb them. Their bodies are designed to do something completely different, how would a fade efficiently climb a ladder with no hands? Moreover, why would he when he can blink/shadowstep/double jump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> nanites
<!--quoteo(post=2062074:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:11 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 17 2013, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens were made with the human body in mind, that's why dogs and other 4 legged animals can't climb them. Their bodies are designed to do something completely different, how would a fade efficiently climb a ladder with no hands? Moreover, why would he when he can blink/shadowstep/double jump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record, I don't have a problem with aliens not being able to use ladders; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1iok0QJtI" target="_blank">however...</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2062080:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:22 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record, I don't have a problem with aliens not being able to use ladders; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1iok0QJtI" target="_blank">however...</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I keep mixing up my words lately, ladders is what i meant not aliens. And i'd like to see him climb a vertical ladder.
<!--quoteo(post=2062082:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:24 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 17 2013, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I keep mixing up my words lately, ladders is what i meant not aliens. And i'd like to see him climb a vertical ladder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I got what you meant; did you watch what I linked? ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2062074:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:11 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 18 2013, 03:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a non-functional elevator. He was referring to the actual entity from hammer editor where you could make a brush function as an elevator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh yeah, I'm pretty sure when I use the ns1 map editor, I can easily create an actual functional elevator. Oops, did I just go there? But hey, who needs elevators in futuristic space stations when you can just have ramps, right? I mean not even an actual place called elevator transfer needs an elevator...
<!--quoteo(post=2062074:date=Jan 17 2013, 11:11 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 17 2013, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ladders were made with the human body in mind, that's why dogs and other 4 legged animals can't climb them. Their bodies are designed to do something completely different, how would a fade efficiently climb a ladder with no hands? Moreover, why would he when he can blink/shadowstep/double jump?
It's a non-functional elevator. He was referring to the actual entity from hammer editor where you could make a brush function as an elevator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only nitpicking here, but how can you shadowstep up a ladder?
<!--quoteo(post=2062087:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh yeah, I'm pretty sure when I use the ns1 map editor, I can easily create an actual functional elevator. Oops, did I just go there? But hey, who needs elevators in futuristic space stations when you can just have ramps, right? I mean not even an actual place called elevator transfer needs an elevator...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I imagine elevators weren't implemented in NS2 because it wasn't deemed necessary as a core component of the game. NS1 had them because it was already programmed in and why not? Personally I hate elevators in maps so I don't mind it at all. Why would you want to be slowed down getting somewhere because you took an elevator rather than just go around?
Also it's not the "NS1 editor" it's the Valve Hammer editor.
<!--quoteo(post=2062089:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only nitpicking here, but how can you shadowstep up a ladder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't really, but you can double jump and shadow step forward or just shadow step over a gap rather than use a ladder.
<!--quoteo(post=2062067:date=Jan 17 2013, 05:56 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 17 2013, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure gorgy and onos movement, IA units, etc. limit also what you can do, but it doesn't mean cysts are not a limiting factor as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any path a cyst can't take an Onos wouldn't be able to either. In NS1 or NS2. I don't see any new limitation. What I'm trying to say is, the limitation DID exist in NS1, it just wasn't adhered to. This limitation isn't new, it just that the maps now are using proper design, rather than making up ###### as they go.
<!--quoteo(post=2062095:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:35 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 18 2013, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I imagine elevators weren't implemented in NS2 because it wasn't deemed necessary as a core component of the game. NS1 had them because it was already programmed in and why not? Personally I hate elevators in maps so I don't mind it at all. Why would you want to be slowed down getting somewhere because you took an elevator rather than just go around?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, anything that they couldn't do is NS2 deemed "unnecessary", how convenient. I guess UWE didn't hand pick your horde to play test this game for no reason. You guys hate elevator, hate ladders, love ramps, love flat maps, think lag is not an issue. What more could UWE ask for? lol...
<!--quoteo(post=2062098:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:39 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maps now are using proper design, rather than making up ###### as they go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so ns2 maps use proper design, and ns1 maps were **** made up on the go. UWE should convert NS2 into a religions, sheep would follow.
Comments
Yes all of the things you listed are true, no none of them are remotely relevant when it comes to designing good or interesting NS2 maps. No good level design hinges fundamentally on rooms being huge, hives being far off the ground unsupported, or ladders/elevators being the only way to traverse a space. All of those things are <i>bad</i> design choices. Huge unobstructed rooms makes things unbalanced in favor of marines due to making it very difficult for skulks to traverse the intervening space, or for aliens to effectively combat jetpacks. Hives being far off the ground without any floor access makes it much harder for marines to effectively attack the hive without heavy weapons support, making it far, far tougher in the early game if a gorge decides to evolve on top of it. And ladders/elevators as choke points are a very poor design choice, because they make too good a choke point without conventional routes to support them, and for them to affect cyst/drifter/mac pathing they would have to be unsupplemented by conventional routes.
Even were these specific mechanics <i>not</i> bad decisions, they can be worked around. Rooms can be made spacious enough and alien-unfriendly enough by adding some intelligent view blocking geometry between a series of very well connected large rooms, and things like chain fences allow marines to shoot without aliens being able to cross. Hives can be suspended on inaccessible platforms, and extremely good choke points can be created in many other ways than with elevators, such as excessively small doorways or poor room inter-connectivity. The functionality of all the mechanics are easily reproducible, though extremely ill-advised.
That the OP is making these points out to be a serious issue suggests a lack of understanding of level design, and their calling for popular support from 'ns1 vets' further suggests that the argument proposed is not the focus of the post, instead the post is an excuse to complain about NS2 and invite other people to do the same, the argument is simply a justification for an existing bias against the game.
Hence, why people react with hostility, there is no logical opposition to an argument which is not logical. The logical component of the argument is incorrect, but as it is not important, the OP's position of 'NS1 was better, NS2 sucks' is still held.
They are limitations in a very technical sense, but it's like saying the inability to bake lightmaps is a limitation.
Yes it's technically something NS1 could do while NS2 can't, but... why on earth would you want to do it? What does it stop you doing, really?
OP's point: NS2 is limited in map design because of X,Y,Z.
My point: That's an irrelevant observation.
Surely you would think me an idiot if I made a thread complaining that NS2 doesn't let me switch the lighting to a one lightmap pixel per meter of map geometry model, because in my mind that was absolutely key to NS1's greatness.
You would obviously think that that's a ridiculous thing to complain about, because it's patently obvious that no sane person would want to do that and it would add nothing of value to the game.
This is a slightly less obvious example of the same issue.
My point: That's an irrelevant observation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me: X, Y and Z in NS1 maps can't be replicated in NS2 due to limitations
You: NS2 maps aren't limited because you <b><u>DON'T HAVE TO</u></b> replicate X, Y and Z.
Seriously? Imagine some one says "hey dude you suck at NS" and your reply is "it's irrelevant because I don't have to play NS, I can be good at other games"
More importantly, how could UWE relax the current restrictions? For example, the current cysts system clearly still need some work, if they could at the same time allow for more freedom in the map design, everybody would be happy.
Similarly, it is necessary for NS1 and NS2 rooms to have things like some degree of choke points, some level visual variety and differing playstyles from room to room, and perhaps the occasional set-piece, though all of those can be basically lumped into the overall goal of 'levels must be interesting'.
As with the above however, it is not necessary for NS2 to have exactly the same choke points, visual cues, playstyles, and set pieces. It is in fact almost certainly a bad thing to have them be identical, because they've already been done like that. Thus they will be less interesting the second time around. Ideally new ones should be devised.
Furthermore, NS2 is a different game. People are slower, for one thing, so a 200 meter wide room would be a very bad idea in NS2, because it would take more time to cross. In NS1 it might be entirely practical, because it takes the same amount of time to cross as a 50 meter room might in NS2. Thus, in NS2, a 50 meter room equates to a 200 meter NS1 room in terms of functionality, and functionality is what matters when designing levels. Visuals are important, but ultimately it must work first, or else you get a pretty waste of time.
I'd also argue that it's very possible for parts of NS1 maps to be quite badly designed. Most maps and games do have a bunch of badly designed sections. Mapping is quite hit or miss, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, oftentimes it's not what you planned it to be. Perhaps I should make a thread complaining that I can't make the big rotating airlock door from.. ns_bast was it? That was a great decision.
<!--quoteo(post=2061973:date=Jan 17 2013, 12:43 PM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Me: X, Y and Z in NS1 maps can't be replicated in NS2 due to limitations
You: NS2 maps aren't limited because you <b><u>DON'T HAVE TO</u></b> replicate X, Y and Z.
Seriously? Imagine some one says "hey dude you suck at NS" and your reply is "it's irrelevant because I don't have to play NS, I can be good at other games"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That... makes perfect sense?
If you're good at other games, why do you need to be good at NS? If you are universally terrible at everything ever I can see that being cause for concern, but as long as you have a bunch of things you're good at, why does it matter if you're not good at one particular thing? Unless that thing is key to your continued existence or something, but NS, and recreating NS1 maps with painstaking exactitude, are not. If you're looking for an ambition, you can do a lot better. Why not make NS1 maps better, or learn to build spaceships and go to space and discover aliens and recreate NS1 in real life or something.
I can totally get that NS1 had some great gameplay in its maps, but you can replicate parts of that gameplay without replicating the map. If you want to replicate it exactly... Well you can't? NS2 is a different game, even if you could replicate the map it wouldn't play the same. Even if you played the map again in NS1 it wouldn't play the same, because you have different players, it's a different time, people have different ideas about videogames, and simple random brownian motion would make it all different. Isn't that the point of NS? That it's different every time you play?
Why the obsession with recreating an experience you've already had?
Actually its more like saying "hey dude you suck at NS because you can't aim", and his reply is "good aim is not the only way to be good at NS".
<!--quoteo(post=2061976:date=Jan 17 2013, 02:50 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 17 2013, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2061976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More importantly, how could UWE relax the current restrictions? For example, the current cysts system clearly still need some work, if they could at the same time allow for more freedom in the map design, everybody would be happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This still confuses me.
Given that aliens cannot use ladders (and should never have been able to), and elevators do not exist, how exactly do cysts limit map design?
In my opinion, the most failed map currently is refinery, it's neither ns2 style or oldschool ns1 style. Refinery should have been as special as mineshaft, but it has somehow become really linear. Techpoint - corridor- RT - Techpoint - corridor - and the other side of the map.
For example, i am pretty sure lots of you've often already felt lonely and scared on maps like ns_bast ns_altair(probably the biggest map of natural selection) ns_hera etc.. on almost all maps of original natural selection.
It's certainly because it wasn't linear, there were lots of environmental differences/variations, and also lots of level(floor).
You must have felt really under pressure when you were on lower level on maps like origin, hera etc. It was pretty dynamic.
So i actually also miss really much such experiences. I say again, i have nothing against ns2's design, it fits actually for a stand-alone asymmetric game, but it's still true that we lost some dynamic moments cos of ns2's own design limitations.
Only map of ns2 which brings a kind of similar dynamic experiences that we had on ns1 is ns2_mineshaft
can I ask you a question, just a honest question, I don't mean to insult you or anything. Have you actually played NS1? or are you just pretending to be?
Both aliens and marines travel MUCH faster in NS2 and yet you're saying the complete opposite. Fire up NS1 right now and see how slow marines and skulks are. Hell, marine didn't even have sprint back then. Would you like me to load up FRAPS and record you a video to make ur life a tad easier? I play ns1 every day anyway, it's no hassle for me.
That's precisely what the point of this thread is: what could UWE do to eliminate these limitations.
But hell, why would UWE care when they have hordes of zombies defending their weak product? Like what one guy said in the other thread "people on this forum are deliberately defending UWE's flaws as if they were intended designs".
Given that aliens cannot use ladders (and should never have been able to), and elevators do not exist, how exactly do cysts limit map design?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2060998:date=Jan 15 2013, 11:30 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 15 2013, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts require that you have a relatively flat path from <i>every</i> alien starting hive to <i>every</i> natural RT, which make a lot of ground on most maps. NS1 maps could use more complex geometries because skulks could sneak everywhere, evolve a gorge and drop a RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure gorgy and onos movement, IA units, etc. limit also what you can do, but it doesn't mean cysts are not a limiting factor as well.
yeah, aliens can climb walls, can walk on ceilings, can leap 20 meters, can fly, can teleport, can cause earth quakers, but no way in hell can they climb those ladders. Must be a birth defect, dam the evolution.
<!--quoteo(post=2062015:date=Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->elevators do not exist<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what's that big thing in elevator transfer in ns_tram?
Ladders were made with the human body in mind, that's why dogs and other 4 legged animals can't climb them. Their bodies are designed to do something completely different, how would a fade efficiently climb a ladder with no hands? Moreover, why would he when he can blink/shadowstep/double jump?
<!--quoteo(post=2062071:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM:name=Amb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amb @ Jan 17 2013, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what's that big thing in elevator transfer in ns_tram?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a non-functional elevator. He was referring to the actual entity from hammer editor where you could make a brush function as an elevator.
nanites
For the record, I don't have a problem with aliens not being able to use ladders; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1iok0QJtI" target="_blank">however...</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2062080:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:22 AM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 17 2013, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the record, I don't have a problem with aliens not being able to use ladders; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl1iok0QJtI" target="_blank">however...</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I keep mixing up my words lately, ladders is what i meant not aliens. And i'd like to see him climb a vertical ladder.
I got what you meant; did you watch what I linked? ;)
That ladder is fairly vertical. :)
oh yeah, I'm pretty sure when I use the ns1 map editor, I can easily create an actual functional elevator. Oops, did I just go there? But hey, who needs elevators in futuristic space stations when you can just have ramps, right? I mean not even an actual place called elevator transfer needs an elevator...
It's a non-functional elevator. He was referring to the actual entity from hammer editor where you could make a brush function as an elevator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only nitpicking here, but how can you shadowstep up a ladder?
I imagine elevators weren't implemented in NS2 because it wasn't deemed necessary as a core component of the game. NS1 had them because it was already programmed in and why not? Personally I hate elevators in maps so I don't mind it at all. Why would you want to be slowed down getting somewhere because you took an elevator rather than just go around?
Also it's not the "NS1 editor" it's the Valve Hammer editor.
<!--quoteo(post=2062089:date=Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM:name=d0ped0g)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (d0ped0g @ Jan 17 2013, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only nitpicking here, but how can you shadowstep up a ladder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really, but you can double jump and shadow step forward or just shadow step over a gap rather than use a ladder.
Any path a cyst can't take an Onos wouldn't be able to either. In NS1 or NS2. I don't see any new limitation. What I'm trying to say is, the limitation DID exist in NS1, it just wasn't adhered to. This limitation isn't new, it just that the maps now are using proper design, rather than making up ###### as they go.
yeah, anything that they couldn't do is NS2 deemed "unnecessary", how convenient. I guess UWE didn't hand pick your horde to play test this game for no reason. You guys hate elevator, hate ladders, love ramps, love flat maps, think lag is not an issue. What more could UWE ask for? lol...
<!--quoteo(post=2062098:date=Jan 18 2013, 03:39 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 18 2013, 03:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2062098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->maps now are using proper design, rather than making up ###### as they go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so ns2 maps use proper design, and ns1 maps were **** made up on the go. UWE should convert NS2 into a religions, sheep would follow.