NS1 bunnyhop changed considerably and deliberately in its lifetime - it might not have been intended from an engine point-of-view, but it sure as hell was intended for the game itself. Calling bunnyhop a bug in NS is one of the most dishonest/naive manipulations of the term out there. They could have removed it at any point but didn't.
Bunnyhop was unintuitive, yes, but the biggest barrier was the lack of "forward". Nobody wants that same limitation for its successor and nobody relished the fact that it was unintuitive in the first place. Basically, the downsides of bunnyhopping can be easily addressed. Again, you only need to look at NS2c to see a valid way of approaching the situation.
<!--quoteo(post=2063351:date=Jan 19 2013, 09:19 PM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jan 19 2013, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wall-jumping was suppose to replace bunny-hopping from ns1
Bunny-hopping was mainly used to get from A to B quicker
This is where wall-jumping fails and for a number of reasons - map geometry means wall-jumping is very sporadic - wall surface and decorative props that get in the way - inability to maintain speed after you land on the floor ie. no more chain wall-jumping - probably some others i cant think of right now - main factor : you arent that much quicker at ariving at your destination which means your putting in alot of effort for very little gain
now compare all this with marines who just hold down shift and can gain 20% more speed for quite a long duration.
As a skulk your going to be wall-jumping where you can and your gonna gain small bursts of speed here and there to shave off a few seconds of transit time. This ends up being frustrating as you can never maintain the speed that you work hard to get. More often than not your going to feel like it just isnt worth the effort and that its not actually a skill but rather you just jumping around like an idiot.
Bunny-hopping on the other hand is far superior compared to Wall-jumping as its not only more satisfying but it has alot more depth to the mechanic for people to explore.
As for the confusion, i think people who are ok with the current wall-jumping just dont know any better
hope this clears things up :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a decent amount of ns1 and saw the bunnyhopping, even though I wasn't very good at it. I disagree that the current walljumping is not worth using. Even running parallel to a wall and tapping jump once per second gets you a decent speed boost with no height loss. I do see the problems with it such as there only being a few set routes that can chain and the sudden boosts of speed being a bit much.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2063446:date=Jan 20 2013, 01:49 AM:name=Jow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jow @ Jan 20 2013, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll repeat my suggestion of combining walljumping with strafe jumping on level ground to create a nicer movement system.
<!--quoteo(post=2063272:date=Jan 19 2013, 11:44 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 19 2013, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reading up on what bunnyhopping is widely known as does not a NS-bhop expert make. I'm not contending your powers of literacy. I'm contending your understanding of its implementation in NS1. Feel free to prove me wrong by hopping on [teehee] an empty server with me. Also, show me where Cory undermines anything I said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did show you, it was in that topic you didn't feel like reading and the quote I took directly from him about it being a bug in all gldsrc games that people used in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2063286:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:09 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 19 2013, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you've quoted says nothing about your 'gravity' bhop theory. There is no connection between NS2 fall speed walljump and NS1 bhop, they are not both based on gravity. And no, you could not endlessly accelerate via a gravity loop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a theory, you can gain much faster speed falling than moving forward normally in the gldsrc engine. So as described in the wiki entry and from what I said, you can use that downward speed and transfer it to other directions by jumping at the right time. Timing your jumps properly would result in no deceleration so you would keep your momentum and go in another direction. So yea gravity did play a part in it, strafing and turning at certain angles also played a big part of it but the most speed could be attained by using downward motion.
<!--quoteo(post=2063288:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:10 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jan 19 2013, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you knew half as much as you pretend to know you would not find that surprising at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right I shouldn't be surprised that people actually bothered to write an essay on bunnyhopping through the ages.
<!--quoteo(post=2063318:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:04 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jan 19 2013, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you seem to have misunderstood
I was pointing out the fact that you have no idea what your talking about. You display in your posts a fundemental lack of understanding due to little practical experience. Its as if youve aquired all your information from somewhere else (probably the forums) and havnt figured anything out for yourself.
You say you can mash the spacebar + walljumping and gain 'stupid fast' speed .... seems like your talking about the old walljump and havnt played the game since many builds ago or havnt walljumped in a long time at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Instead of arguing I'll just show you a little video i made. I do 3 runs of the same course. 1 just running on the ground, the second trying to time the wall jumps, and the 3rd mashing the space bar repeatedly as I hit walls. You're welcome to guess which one ended up being the fastest but I recommended watching the video.
Now all that being said, Commy is right, I don't have sway over anything. All I do is try to break the game to find problems and when I browse through here and see people mentioning a bug, I report it so that it can get into the process of being fixed. That's about it.
<!--quoteo(post=2063525:date=Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of arguing I'll just show you a little video i made. I do 3 runs of the same course. 1 just running on the ground, the second trying to time the wall jumps, and the 3rd mashing the space bar repeatedly as I hit walls. You're welcome to guess which one ended up being the fastest but I recommended watching the video.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2tOf0wtV8k&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">Wall Jumping</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is incorrect - hitting your jump key more than once in a ~250ms period will not give you any speed boost (I can only assume this is a countermeasure for macros). the reason why your third route was quicker was because you added an extra jump off of the crate prior to entering Computer Lab. you can't "spam jumps" to gain speed. however, as long as you stay outside of that timing window and within the friction timing, then each jump linearly adds to your current speed which gives you a huge speed boost in specific map areas.
<!--quoteo(post=2063525:date=Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a theory, you can gain much faster speed falling than moving forward normally in the gldsrc engine. So as described in the wiki entry and from what I said, you can use that downward speed and transfer it to other directions by jumping at the right time. Timing your jumps properly would result in no deceleration so you would keep your momentum and go in another direction. So yea gravity did play a part in it, strafing and turning at certain angles also played a big part of it but the most speed could be attained by using downward motion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> bunnyhopping has nothing to do with "transferring downward speed". you gain speed from strafing in the air. bunnyhopping simply refers to jumping on the same frame that you land so that no ground friction is applied, allowing you to continue airstrafing to gain speed.
it's possible you are referring to this section of the Wikipedia article: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->act of pressing the jump key while holding crouch and a movement key to move faster (especially when going down a slope)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is simply describing jump interactions with ramps. you get a speed boost from landing and jumping off of a ramp that's at a downward angle (as seen <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We9HecfYYd4#t=40s" target="_blank">here</a>), and you get a height increase when jumping off of a ramp that's at an upward angle, although this varies from game to game.
<!--quoteo(post=2063559:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is incorrect - hitting your jump key more than once in a ~250ms period will not give you any speed boost (I can only assume this is a countermeasure for macros). the reason why your third route was quicker was because you added an extra jump off of the crate prior to entering Computer Lab. you can't "spam jumps" to gain speed. however, as long as you stay outside of that timing window and within the friction timing, then each jump linearly adds to your current speed which gives you a huge speed boost in specific map areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right but spamming it still got me there faster than just running.
<!--quoteo(post=2063559:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhopping has nothing to do with "transferring downward speed". you gain speed from strafing in the air. bunnyhopping simply refers to jumping on the same frame that you land so that no ground friction is applied, allowing you to continue airstrafing to gain speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok I was doing it wrong then
I miss skulk bunnyhopping. For me it was kind of difficult to learn. I remember there was a map made specifically to teach bunnyhopping in NS1. That's how I learned it. Once you got the hang of it seemed like a new layer of the game opened to you. It's an active skill that had levels of mastery. Some games need that. I think that's why CS-classic was such a hit because the gun recoil in that game had levels of mastery. Back to the point. The Skulk is missing that kind of fun right now, and current walljumping is a snorefest.
<!--quoteo(post=2063664:date=Jan 20 2013, 06:25 AM:name=senate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (senate @ Jan 20 2013, 06:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I miss skulk bunnyhopping. For me it was kind of difficult to learn. I remember there was a map made specifically to teach bunnyhopping in NS1. That's how I learned it. Once you got the hang of it seemed like a new layer of the game opened to you. It's an active skill that had levels of mastery. Some games need that. I think that's why CS-classic was such a hit because the gun recoil in that game had levels of mastery. Back to the point. The Skulk is missing that kind of fun right now, and current walljumping is a snorefest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That just brought me back, I used to love those tfc maps where the whole point was to try and do rocket and grenade jumps to accomplish ridiculous jumps and objectives.
NS2 should have strafing (changing fly direction in midair) without additional speed gain. It would add a whole new dimension and will not enable bunny-hop. I mean even TF2 has it (strafing, not bh) and its much slower than in TFC. Arcade games should have unrealistic and fun controls. We already have no recoil weapons. We need mine\grenade jumping, we need mid-air jump control. On topic - walljumping is too casual. Its fun, but something is missing.
We are still battling with new players buildings SG's in the first 5mins and picking Camo first. Hardly think re-implementing a physics exploit is beneficial to retaining a new audience.
With wall jumping there is just no reason to not pick it up. There is no real timing or finesse involved. Drop from height, press space. A good skulk can fly around crossroads by using the abundance of vertical surfaces or a bad skulk can get mauled by the wide open spaces and line of sight available to marines.
The misinformation in this thread is almost amusing... And to anyone saying otherwise NS2 has way more air control than NS1 ever had - which is arguably one of the main reasons skulks can do so well currently.
<!--quoteo(post=2064057:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 21 2013, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The misinformation in this thread is almost amusing... And to anyone saying otherwise NS2 has way more air control than NS1 ever had - which is arguably one of the main reasons skulks can do so well currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2063050:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:07 AM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 19 2013, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I may just be doing it wrong, but it currently feels like the time lost actually moving up the wall is larger than the time gained from any speed boost. Like if you had two skulks racing, one wall jumping and one just taking the shortest path, I don't really think there is any way for the walljumper to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're welcome to race me on Tram if you'd like, from the Warehouse RT to the Platform RT :-)
Comments
Bunnyhop was unintuitive, yes, but the biggest barrier was the lack of "forward". Nobody wants that same limitation for its successor and nobody relished the fact that it was unintuitive in the first place. Basically, the downsides of bunnyhopping can be easily addressed. Again, you only need to look at NS2c to see a valid way of approaching the situation.
Bunny-hopping was mainly used to get from A to B quicker
This is where wall-jumping fails and for a number of reasons
- map geometry means wall-jumping is very sporadic
- wall surface and decorative props that get in the way
- inability to maintain speed after you land on the floor ie. no more chain wall-jumping
- probably some others i cant think of right now
- main factor : you arent that much quicker at ariving at your destination which means your putting in alot of effort for very little gain
now compare all this with marines who just hold down shift and can gain 20% more speed for quite a long duration.
As a skulk your going to be wall-jumping where you can and your gonna gain small bursts of speed here and there to shave off a few seconds of transit time. This ends up being frustrating as you can never maintain the speed that you work hard to get. More often than not your going to feel like it just isnt worth the effort and that its not actually a skill but rather you just jumping around like an idiot.
Bunny-hopping on the other hand is far superior compared to Wall-jumping as its not only more satisfying but it has alot more depth to the mechanic for people to explore.
As for the confusion, i think people who are ok with the current wall-jumping just dont know any better
hope this clears things up :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a decent amount of ns1 and saw the bunnyhopping, even though I wasn't very good at it. I disagree that the current walljumping is not worth using. Even running parallel to a wall and tapping jump once per second gets you a decent speed boost with no height loss. I do see the problems with it such as there only being a few set routes that can chain and the sudden boosts of speed being a bit much.
Please :)
Please :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might work, im for
I did show you, it was in that topic you didn't feel like reading and the quote I took directly from him about it being a bug in all gldsrc games that people used in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2063286:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:09 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 19 2013, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you've quoted says nothing about your 'gravity' bhop theory. There is no connection between NS2 fall speed walljump and NS1 bhop, they are not both based on gravity. And no, you could not endlessly accelerate via a gravity loop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a theory, you can gain much faster speed falling than moving forward normally in the gldsrc engine. So as described in the wiki entry and from what I said, you can use that downward speed and transfer it to other directions by jumping at the right time. Timing your jumps properly would result in no deceleration so you would keep your momentum and go in another direction. So yea gravity did play a part in it, strafing and turning at certain angles also played a big part of it but the most speed could be attained by using downward motion.
<!--quoteo(post=2063288:date=Jan 19 2013, 12:10 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jan 19 2013, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you knew half as much as you pretend to know you would not find that surprising at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right I shouldn't be surprised that people actually bothered to write an essay on bunnyhopping through the ages.
<!--quoteo(post=2063318:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:04 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jan 19 2013, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you seem to have misunderstood
I was pointing out the fact that you have no idea what your talking about. You display in your posts a fundemental lack of understanding due to little practical experience. Its as if youve aquired all your information from somewhere else (probably the forums) and havnt figured anything out for yourself.
You say you can mash the spacebar + walljumping and gain 'stupid fast' speed .... seems like your talking about the old walljump and havnt played the game since many builds ago or havnt walljumped in a long time at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of arguing I'll just show you a little video i made. I do 3 runs of the same course. 1 just running on the ground, the second trying to time the wall jumps, and the 3rd mashing the space bar repeatedly as I hit walls. You're welcome to guess which one ended up being the fastest but I recommended watching the video.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2tOf0wtV8k&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">Wall Jumping</a>
Now all that being said, Commy is right, I don't have sway over anything. All I do is try to break the game to find problems and when I browse through here and see people mentioning a bug, I report it so that it can get into the process of being fixed. That's about it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2tOf0wtV8k&feature=youtu.be" target="_blank">Wall Jumping</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is incorrect - hitting your jump key more than once in a ~250ms period will not give you any speed boost (I can only assume this is a countermeasure for macros). the reason why your third route was quicker was because you added an extra jump off of the crate prior to entering Computer Lab. you can't "spam jumps" to gain speed.
however, as long as you stay outside of that timing window and within the friction timing, then each jump linearly adds to your current speed which gives you a huge speed boost in specific map areas.
<!--quoteo(post=2063525:date=Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 19 2013, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not a theory, you can gain much faster speed falling than moving forward normally in the gldsrc engine. So as described in the wiki entry and from what I said, you can use that downward speed and transfer it to other directions by jumping at the right time. Timing your jumps properly would result in no deceleration so you would keep your momentum and go in another direction. So yea gravity did play a part in it, strafing and turning at certain angles also played a big part of it but the most speed could be attained by using downward motion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bunnyhopping has nothing to do with "transferring downward speed". you gain speed from strafing in the air. bunnyhopping simply refers to jumping on the same frame that you land so that no ground friction is applied, allowing you to continue airstrafing to gain speed.
it's possible you are referring to this section of the Wikipedia article:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->act of pressing the jump key while holding crouch and a movement key to move faster (especially when going down a slope)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is simply describing jump interactions with ramps. you get a speed boost from landing and jumping off of a ramp that's at a downward angle (as seen <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We9HecfYYd4#t=40s" target="_blank">here</a>), and you get a height increase when jumping off of a ramp that's at an upward angle, although this varies from game to game.
however, as long as you stay outside of that timing window and within the friction timing, then each jump linearly adds to your current speed which gives you a huge speed boost in specific map areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right but spamming it still got me there faster than just running.
<!--quoteo(post=2063559:date=Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 19 2013, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhopping has nothing to do with "transferring downward speed". you gain speed from strafing in the air. bunnyhopping simply refers to jumping on the same frame that you land so that no ground friction is applied, allowing you to continue airstrafing to gain speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok I was doing it wrong then
That just brought me back, I used to love those tfc maps where the whole point was to try and do rocket and grenade jumps to accomplish ridiculous jumps and objectives.
On topic - walljumping is too casual. Its fun, but something is missing.
Hardly think re-implementing a physics exploit is beneficial to retaining a new audience.
With wall jumping there is just no reason to not pick it up. There is no real timing or finesse involved. Drop from height, press space.
A good skulk can fly around crossroads by using the abundance of vertical surfaces or a bad skulk can get mauled by the wide open spaces and line of sight available to marines.
LOL this is awesome. NS2 classes ^_^ . They should add this to the undergraduate curriculum of universities xD .
wait, you mean i can STRAFE IN MID-AIR NOW?
mind just got blown.
You're welcome to race me on Tram if you'd like, from the Warehouse RT to the Platform RT :-)