As I said you have to change how you play...freely walking is not what you want to do...this is why a res node war is not fought.
You walk as part of a team (spaced out to cover each others feet), hold...get phase up...obs...push to next one...then sit and turtle up some upgrades. You have to do this pretty much right off the bat and be organised...not faf about for the first 2-3 min once you realise they have camo.
Freely walking about is what you do against crag or shift hives....with a shade hive you know you can stall weapons upgrades as aliens wont be getting carapace any time soon.
You're assuming that marines are winning every engagement because they're walking in groups.
What if aliens also walk (well, crawl) in groups?
Not to mention the strat you mentioned is heavily dependent on res, which the marine team won't have any if the aliens are doing it right.
its worth using in a competitive game, its just that the top teams have been holding back on practicing using it because it doesnt take much skill anyway and theyre hoping it will be tweaked so that its not a powerful yet skilless upg to have.
As I said you have to change how you play...freely walking is not what you want to do...this is why a res node war is not fought.
You walk as part of a team (spaced out to cover each others feet), hold...get phase up...obs...push to next one...then sit and turtle up some upgrades. You have to do this pretty much right off the bat and be organised...not faf about for the first 2-3 min once you realise they have camo.
Freely walking about is what you do against crag or shift hives....with a shade hive you know you can stall weapons upgrades as aliens wont be getting carapace any time soon.
Yup, this is how it should go.
Now - how many times you see marines move as a group, stay and hold locations, and the comm scanning - on PUBS?
I'm not addressing you specifically hakenspit, just making my ancient point that camo works extremely well on pubs. It just requires a bit more from the aliens, (to actually use it lol) and a WHOLE lot more from the marines.
On-topic:
If you want to keep camo 100% invis (partial doesn't work, we tried that already, screen settings and monitors vary too much to make something "partially invisible" for everyone) , there's a couple suggestions I've liked so far:
1. Audio cue - the closer the cloaked alien gets, the louder a sound effect gets. (make it jaws theme i don't know lol)
2. MY AWESOME SUGGESTION: marines STANDING STILL can partially see moving cloaked aliens (not ones that stand still) and marines MOVING can't see moving cloaked aliens. I think this would make a fun "oh he stopped i gotta stop too or he sees me" -kinda game. Also "oh he's looking away lets get closer". I have no idea if it's even possible to do this though.
The current cloak mechanism does not balance consistently throughout a game as other traits do, I believe it can, even if it has not been done before.
Though if no one can figure out how to make this work, then yes, lets revamp it. But changing core game mechanics should never be taken lightly, and it's hard to accept fundamental game changes.
its worth using in a competitive game, its just that the top teams have been holding back on practicing using it because it doesnt take much skill anyway and theyre hoping it will be tweaked so that its not a powerful yet skilless upg to have.
it is going to get a whole lot more responsive, good looking, fun and skill-based!
Just guessing here, but more responsive means more dynamic?
I personally would like a more fluid and dynamic transformation, but with an on/off switch (ability, instead of permanent upgrade)...pretty much like a chameleon has ( > it can go into it's normal auto-camo state,or deliberately choose to put up an offensive or warning pattern).
Dynamic in such way that it takes much longer to blend-in - 4/5secs maybe? - but also much longer to become completely visible again.
And the faster the Alien accelerates, the quicker the cloaking disappears.
But being an on/off ability - it needs to come at a price....so it costs a little energy to cloak and un-cloak.
Just dreaming here...haven't yet given this any thought about balance, and practical concequences :P
If camo is removed from full invisibility, then mind as well remove it entirely. It's main purpose is to ambush. Most people combine this with regen to attack, hide and cloak, get health and go back in. Silence (Which most people use for Pub play) is best for people who want to kill multiple enemy's without being detected. If they buff it down then get rid of it. Nough' said.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited February 2013
cloaking now doesn't actually cloak you but turns you into a crate, pipe, power node or railing.
Marine 1: I don't remember there being two powernodes in this room.
Marine 2: err Sir, that red barrel over there appears to be moving towards us
Marine 1: arghhhhh its biting me....
seriously though:
/me thinks that cloaking will now be player operated and it will use adrenaline.
e.g. when you hold SHIFT to walk you cloak nearly instantly. but it will use adrenaline so you can't do it forever. This will turn you into a hunter so that you can get into position quickly, and then go invisible quickly.
thats the only way i can think of it being skill based. but can't wait to find out yay feb is a short month
Edit: ooh i just realised - maybe they are making cloaking awesome now, and adding in motion tracking back in to counter it - that would be skill based, since no movment = no show up motion tracky
Give the marines thermal imaging goggles. Because that's the first item any military would issue when fighting an enemy that is trying to sneak around invisible or nearly invisible. Make it cost Pres and require a tech (at obs?). That'll solve a whole mess of problems, I think. Those poor marines were sent in wickedly unprepared.
What exactly are peoples issues with camo at the moment?
From what I gather, people are complaining that its too strong early game (maybe?), too weak late game (probably?), and requires no skill to use (dunno?).
Cloaking based on simple texture transparency like in NS1 is easily abused, but a proper special effect wouldn't be. The Hidden: Source pulls it off perfectly, the whole game is built around it.
You are in favor of skulks and frigging oni walking straight at marines who have zero ability to stand a chance unless the comm intervenes through scan/obs placement?
I encourage you to look up The Hidden: Source. That is my ideal camo. I would link something, but I am posting from a phone
I see where you're coming from. But, I agree with hakenspit as a player. Even without armor/weapons upgrades, it's easy to take out most camo skulks, in pub play. Most only get one bite in, some two, before I turn and fire; most experienced FPS gamers can 180 fire pretty accurately. Once I know aliens went shade, I know they have no speed or carpace (for at least 3-5 minutes), I know I can sporadically sprint and force the less experienced players out (due to impatiences), and I can call for scans on specific areas to out hiding skulks. Cloak giving 100% invisibility doesn't bug me.
If I remember correctly, the Hidden creature (test subject guy) could kill with one hit, while being able to high jump, and move faster than the swat team (I think they were swat). I think that changes it enough to not be a great example. Imagine a skulk with a 1-hit kill, at start. No need for any type of cloaking.
gah..... I go away for a weekend.....
I'm not comparing hidden for any other reason that how the hidden player was camo'd.......... Incredibly hard to spot when still, but with patience and luck, spotable. On the move, easier to spot, but by no means easy.
What exactly are peoples issues with camo at the moment?
From what I gather, people are complaining that its too strong early game (maybe?), too weak late game (probably?), and requires no skill to use (dunno?).
Too frustrating to play against, too dependent on skillful comm intervention.
Cloaking based on simple texture transparency like in NS1 is easily abused, but a proper special effect wouldn't be. The Hidden: Source pulls it off perfectly, the whole game is built around it.
it's me cl_matbright 1;_;
Well NS2 isn't just a mod, they have control over the engine itself. They don't have to support any feature that would allow a user to bypass the cloak effect. There will always be hacking, what's important is that it's no easier to break cloaking than it is to install an aimbot or something.
You are in favor of skulks and frigging oni walking straight at marines who have zero ability to stand a chance unless the comm intervenes through scan/obs placement?
I encourage you to look up The Hidden: Source. That is my ideal camo. I would link something, but I am posting from a phone
I see where you're coming from. But, I agree with hakenspit as a player. Even without armor/weapons upgrades, it's easy to take out most camo skulks, in pub play. Most only get one bite in, some two, before I turn and fire; most experienced FPS gamers can 180 fire pretty accurately. Once I know aliens went shade, I know they have no speed or carpace (for at least 3-5 minutes), I know I can sporadically sprint and force the less experienced players out (due to impatiences), and I can call for scans on specific areas to out hiding skulks. Cloak giving 100% invisibility doesn't bug me.
If I remember correctly, the Hidden creature (test subject guy) could kill with one hit, while being able to high jump, and move faster than the swat team (I think they were swat). I think that changes it enough to not be a great example. Imagine a skulk with a 1-hit kill, at start. No need for any type of cloaking.
gah..... I go away for a weekend.....
I'm not comparing hidden for any other reason that how the hidden player was camo'd.......... Incredibly hard to spot when still, but with patience and luck, spotable. On the move, easier to spot, but by no means easy.
The worry is good players will use in-game, graphics and available console options to make it easier to see cloaked targets. Having played the hidden, it wasn't that hard to spot the cloaked hidden. Usually, the hidden had to take advantage of the map (areas out of enemy LOS), and the one hit kill. If they didn't, a twitch shot gunner could end the round.
Using the hidden cloaking mechanic would weaken cloaking for everything except fades and maybe lerks.
Silence would be the better option in most games.
I feel as a new and more 'casual' player I should post my opinion on the cloak, too Personally, I really love it. One thing that made me fall in love with this game was the great atmosphere on both teams, especially Marines (because you don't use anything like the Alien Vision there). So whenever cloaking occurs it adds for me so much to the mood from the perspective of an Marine, I get uneasy feelings walking down the corridors and strain my eyes trying to be alert. It's amazing. As Alien the camo is great, too, it gives a sense of power though in the end it doesn't make much of a difference (at least for me. I know there's people better than me that can use it pretty well)
So what I was trying to say is I enjoy the current cloak immensely no matter which side I'm on, and I think the new cloak should not change too much from it. I don't feel like it's OP at all, but it immensely adds to the atmosphere. Most other games with cloak are too easy and don't produce the tense atmosphere you get with NS2. For example I play Blacklight, it has a Cloak feature too but its not 100% invisible (unless standing still) and it plays a sound whenever someone decloaks. It's surprisingly easy to spot cloaked people there, as it is very obvious to notice the cloaked players as they move and in case you missed that as soon they decloak you know exactly where they are because of the sound and can shoot them before they have a chance of killing you. So I sincerely hope the new cloaking will NOT be anything like that, it would make it too easy for Marines and it would be a hell of a lot less scary / atmospheric, therefore less fun for both sides.
I will anxiously await the new cloaking, hoping for the best
I feel that cloak should be 100% ONLY if the creature using it is standing still. If there was a predetor "haze" around the skulk as it was moving, that would be acceptable, but a player shouldn't be able to walk up to other players without any considerations other than if the comm will randomly scan or not.
What exactly are peoples issues with camo at the moment? From what I gather, people are complaining that its too strong early game (maybe?), too weak late game (probably?)
What I've been reading (as far as complaints about camo) is that it is less about what camo offers, and more about what you have to give up to have it.
Say you go shade hive first. OK, you've got camo and related traits. In many games, aliens will have second hive around the 6-8 minute mark. Now you have the choice, do you go crag hive to pick up carapace and regeneration (as well as the crags themselves for healing), or do you go shift hive to pick up celerity and adrenaline (as well as the shift for forward egg drops)?
The choice you don't make, means you are without those traits for usually another 10 minutes. So can you imagine playing a game for ~15+ minutes without carapace? What about going ~15+ minutes without celerity? What about the ability to drop a shift and start popping out eggs? Or a crag to heal a hive that the marines launched a failed attack on?
What some people are saying is that it's the *other* choices that make shade hive a liability in the early game, since you push back needed upgrades to much later in the game. Me personally I'm divided on it. While the point is apt, the aliens often win the game before third hive is dropped anyway.
Comments
You're assuming that marines are winning every engagement because they're walking in groups.
What if aliens also walk (well, crawl) in groups?
Not to mention the strat you mentioned is heavily dependent on res, which the marine team won't have any if the aliens are doing it right.
Full invisibilty like now but with motion scanners for marines or
partial shimmer invisibility, lower speed penalty but comm scans and obs only reveal a circle around a skulk every 5 seconds as a pulse.
Yup, this is how it should go.
Now - how many times you see marines move as a group, stay and hold locations, and the comm scanning - on PUBS?
I'm not addressing you specifically hakenspit, just making my ancient point that camo works extremely well on pubs. It just requires a bit more from the aliens, (to actually use it lol) and a WHOLE lot more from the marines.
On-topic:
If you want to keep camo 100% invis (partial doesn't work, we tried that already, screen settings and monitors vary too much to make something "partially invisible" for everyone) , there's a couple suggestions I've liked so far:
1. Audio cue - the closer the cloaked alien gets, the louder a sound effect gets. (make it jaws theme i don't know lol)
2. MY AWESOME SUGGESTION: marines STANDING STILL can partially see moving cloaked aliens (not ones that stand still) and marines MOVING can't see moving cloaked aliens. I think this would make a fun "oh he stopped i gotta stop too or he sees me" -kinda game. Also "oh he's looking away lets get closer". I have no idea if it's even possible to do this though.
Though if no one can figure out how to make this work, then yes, lets revamp it. But changing core game mechanics should never be taken lightly, and it's hard to accept fundamental game changes.
You wouldn't happen to know Wooferz?
that would rock
I personally would like a more fluid and dynamic transformation, but with an on/off switch (ability, instead of permanent upgrade)...pretty much like a chameleon has ( > it can go into it's normal auto-camo state,or deliberately choose to put up an offensive or warning pattern).
Dynamic in such way that it takes much longer to blend-in - 4/5secs maybe? - but also much longer to become completely visible again.
And the faster the Alien accelerates, the quicker the cloaking disappears.
But being an on/off ability - it needs to come at a price....so it costs a little energy to cloak and un-cloak.
Just dreaming here...haven't yet given this any thought about balance, and practical concequences :P
Marine 1: I don't remember there being two powernodes in this room.
Marine 2: err Sir, that red barrel over there appears to be moving towards us
Marine 1: arghhhhh its biting me....
seriously though:
/me thinks that cloaking will now be player operated and it will use adrenaline.
e.g. when you hold SHIFT to walk you cloak nearly instantly. but it will use adrenaline so you can't do it forever. This will turn you into a hunter so that you can get into position quickly, and then go invisible quickly.
thats the only way i can think of it being skill based. but can't wait to find out
Edit: ooh i just realised - maybe they are making cloaking awesome now, and adding in motion tracking back in to counter it - that would be skill based, since no movment = no show up motion tracky
From what I gather, people are complaining that its too strong early game (maybe?), too weak late game (probably?), and requires no skill to use (dunno?).
gah..... I go away for a weekend.....
I'm not comparing hidden for any other reason that how the hidden player was camo'd.......... Incredibly hard to spot when still, but with patience and luck, spotable. On the move, easier to spot, but by no means easy.
Too frustrating to play against, too dependent on skillful comm intervention.
Well NS2 isn't just a mod, they have control over the engine itself. They don't have to support any feature that would allow a user to bypass the cloak effect. There will always be hacking, what's important is that it's no easier to break cloaking than it is to install an aimbot or something.
The worry is good players will use in-game, graphics and available console options to make it easier to see cloaked targets. Having played the hidden, it wasn't that hard to spot the cloaked hidden. Usually, the hidden had to take advantage of the map (areas out of enemy LOS), and the one hit kill. If they didn't, a twitch shot gunner could end the round.
Using the hidden cloaking mechanic would weaken cloaking for everything except fades and maybe lerks.
Silence would be the better option in most games.
Cloak now doesn't suck, people still complain.
I don't get it guys
So what I was trying to say is I enjoy the current cloak immensely no matter which side I'm on, and I think the new cloak should not change too much from it. I don't feel like it's OP at all, but it immensely adds to the atmosphere. Most other games with cloak are too easy and don't produce the tense atmosphere you get with NS2. For example I play Blacklight, it has a Cloak feature too but its not 100% invisible (unless standing still) and it plays a sound whenever someone decloaks. It's surprisingly easy to spot cloaked people there, as it is very obvious to notice the cloaked players as they move and in case you missed that as soon they decloak you know exactly where they are because of the sound and can shoot them before they have a chance of killing you. So I sincerely hope the new cloaking will NOT be anything like that, it would make it too easy for Marines and it would be a hell of a lot less scary / atmospheric, therefore less fun for both sides.
I will anxiously await the new cloaking, hoping for the best
Say you go shade hive first. OK, you've got camo and related traits. In many games, aliens will have second hive around the 6-8 minute mark. Now you have the choice, do you go crag hive to pick up carapace and regeneration (as well as the crags themselves for healing), or do you go shift hive to pick up celerity and adrenaline (as well as the shift for forward egg drops)?
The choice you don't make, means you are without those traits for usually another 10 minutes. So can you imagine playing a game for ~15+ minutes without carapace? What about going ~15+ minutes without celerity? What about the ability to drop a shift and start popping out eggs? Or a crag to heal a hive that the marines launched a failed attack on?
What some people are saying is that it's the *other* choices that make shade hive a liability in the early game, since you push back needed upgrades to much later in the game. Me personally I'm divided on it. While the point is apt, the aliens often win the game before third hive is dropped anyway.