1. fast beacon (0.5 second instead 2-3 seconds until beacon):
select main base observatory and press CTRL + 1 (= 1 key for quick select the observatory)
beacon by: 1-key + S-key
2. nano-shield on powernode: (if you have 2 cc up, 1 second instead 3-4 seconds)
E + D + click on powernode
....
are you being serious?
your answer is commander needs to beacon in half a second?
*shakes head*
i cant even begin to process the backwards logic on this.
go try being commander and do what you just suggested, see how it works out.
In those servers, I'd say grenade spam that annihilates everything minus whips is pretty nasty too.
Yeah, except that Whips are hard counters to GLs. Bile has no such hard counter. So that makes whatever point you were trying to make pretty moot.
The bottom line for me is this: the cheap cost of gorges, the ability for skulks to evolve into gorges in hard to shoot areas, the flaky notification system, the rapid time it takes for bile to kill power nodes, the seriously detrimental effect that power outage has in the marine main base... all of that allows Aliens to wreck marine bases and end the game faster and with far less investment making it easier for them to win. If it is easier for Aliens to win, then the game is imbalanced.
Now I'm just waiting for someone to say ... no, this is an asymmetric game... just because one side is able to win easier doesn't mean it's imbalanced...
I'll just go hang out in Marine vs Marine from now on...
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I think a lot of the difference of opinion here may come from the sizes of servers people play on. If your server has 24 people, then there's probably always a marine respawning, and one who has just spawned somewhere near base so this is less of an issue. If the game is smaller then this isn't going to be the case.
Solo marines never win the game for marines - at least not against alien teams that have the least bit of competence.
It's the same if you reverse the roles. Play with competent Marines.
In practice it's not the same, that much is clear. A hive being ninjaed down is incredibly rare compared to main base losing power. If the bar for "competent" is higher for marines than it is for aliens then we have a problem.
I see you point. From experience, competent Marines (matching competent Aliens) can be just as destructive. Marines can devastate poorly guarded bases, at practically any point in the game. They don't have to wait till a second Hive.
To stop 2-3 Gorges, you need 1-2 Marines? Sounds like a decent trade off. Those Gorges are focusing on one location, so you can afford to send less Marines to play guard duty. I'm not seeing the issue here. It should take 1-2 Marines to stop 2-3 Gorges.
Also, you say you had the upper hand. How did your team allow the Aliens to keep Cafe or Gen (separated by Locker Room) long enough to "constantly" harass Terminal? All you have to do is drop the Aliens to one Hive and kill the Gorges; no more Bile Bomb.
You can't expect 1 or 2 marines to just sit in base all game waiting for that moment that 2 gorges run into your base with adrenaline jumping about bile bombing your entire base. It just doesn't happen and isn't fun.
This was on a pub server with average/newbie players that don't look at their maps often enough. From a commander perspective that's trying to help an average/newbie team actually win a game as marine it's extremely overpowered and frustrating.
It's also irritating how you have to spread your base structures all over the bloody place aswel just so they don't annihilate absolutely everything within one bile area.
If you think it's fine the way it is at the moment, you're wrong.
The 1-2 on guard duty can float, bouncing between bases, not straying to far. I've played this role, when others preferred to push. It's pretty fun with little risk of death. Someone has to do it, when the team response is noticeably poor.
As for things being fine, I think once the Marine Alert system is improved, the Marine side will be better in most games.
anyone that thinks the current bile is fine is naive or only plays with every competent comms and marines. As you diverge from the responsive ideal team bile bomb's effectiveness goes up. It becomes so effective that its used all too often because the aliens know it will work. gorges can bile bomb from so far away that once marines start phasing in he can slide away. now you have to have a few marines welding to stop the damage and repair so the next the commander has the maximum response time.
I have no qualms with the bile ability but only its characteristics. Reduce the range and/or splash radius and the risk is commensurate with the reward.
I think a lot of the difference of opinion here may come from the sizes of servers people play on. If your server has 24 people, then there's probably always a marine respawning, and one who has just spawned somewhere near base so this is less of an issue. If the game is smaller then this isn't going to be the case.
It's definitely a huge deal.
In NS1 you can see people get away with most ridiculous base layouts on huge servers because of how the constant marine spawning keeps the base safe or at least provides an early warning. Meanwhile in 6v6 my base layout and tech choise is sometimes dependent on the hive just to fend off the incoming baserushes and I have to be constantly aware of the open routes to my base and I occassionally have to ask one marine to fall back just to have some for of safety in case a baserush hits.
The marines can be as competent as they want. The gorge has to sneak in the base when the marines are pushing a hive. Therefore you always need at least one marine in base, since the alert goes off at 40% hp and even if the comm jumps out and instatnly kills the gorge, the dot of the bilebombs will finish off the node.
If power is down, all the marines have to return to base or the next skulkrush will end the game. If the marines come back, their forward pgs will go down. Either way, the aliens profit. Simply the threat of a gorge coming in, forcing marines to do guard duty is helping the aliens on the field.
The problem is simply that player vs player is totally unimportant for winning games. You win by doing economic damage and the best way to do that is kill structures.
Bile is fine, 10 res gorge is fine because gorges die a lot. When I play gorge I never get enough res to go onos because I spend all my res re-spawning. A single marine can run down and kill a gorge unless the gorge gets lucky, can hide or get help. With exos and FTs plus armor/weapon upgrades bile doesn't need tweaking.
I think marine coms forget to ask "what will cause me to lose the game right now". Map awareness is important but even more important is trying to see from the mind of your enemy. How are your forces dispersed and where is your openings, that is where you need to watch.
Obviously the com can not watch everything perfectly at all times however if your hitting there base and the enemy is nowhere to be found they must be somewhere... likely killing your base!
At the end of the day when it comes to bio attacks on base the loss is more of an issue of a com that thought only of "what do I do to win" and never "what do I do to not lose".
I think marine coms forget to ask "what will cause me to lose the game right now". Map awareness is important but even more important is trying to see from the mind of your enemy. How are your forces dispersed and where is your openings, that is where you need to watch.
Obviously the com can not watch everything perfectly at all times however if your hitting there base and the enemy is nowhere to be found they must be somewhere... likely killing your base!
At the end of the day when it comes to bio attacks on base the loss is more of an issue of a com that thought only of "what do I do to win" and never "what do I do to not lose".
What it comes down to though is that the commander is one player on a team of at least 5 FPS players. UWE has repeatedly said this is a shooter first RTS second. So should the game really end because of 10 seconds of inattentiveness on the part of the comm? That never happens on the alien side because there's nothing the alien comm can do to screw it up that badly. One way or the other, there has to be balance between the two teams when it comes to the responsibilities of the commander role. In a pub environment weak commanders are very common, so obviously the team that demands more skill from the comm will be at a disadvantage.
Random thought: in NS1, motion tracking made it much simpler for the commander to be aware of approaching danger to his base...
The problem is simply that player vs player is totally unimportant for winning games. You win by doing economic damage and the best way to do that is kill structures.
I gotta quote this since it is right on the money. This is what really dampens the fun factor in NS2 since the exciting PvP battles usually only happen when the game has already been decided. The bulk of the time it's "res node warz" where one team builds extractors/harvesters and the other team attacks them. (since we all know that attacking a static structure that can't fight back it the epitome of excitement, amitite?!?) Add in the inane power node mechanic and you have a game that revolves more about teams attacking the other team's static structures than the other team's players.
It's no wonder people say bile bomb is overpowered. It's because attacking players is meaningless in the big scheme of things. If PvP was more important in NS2 then bile bomb wouldn't be a very good weapon to use. (excluding using it against the craptastic EXO who is the only unit/structure in the entire game that is armor only.)
So yeah, in a game where it's all about player versus environment, it's no surprise that bile bomb would be seen as overpowered.
How about sentries can shoot down bilebombs?
It makes sense, would make sentries from a waste of res to a thing you need to place stratetically (sentries still need line of sight, indirect hits with bile's aoe can take down sentries), but it would mean that a ninja-gorge would have tp either attack a less important target or have to spit down the sentry battery (or at lease an offending sentry), wich does take a while.
They should just remove the bile stack from multiple gorges. Marines can't complain they didn't have time to beacon, gorges don't lose anything except the "cheap" (IMO) tactic of having 2-3 gorges insta kill a power node.
its funny all the complaints when spit was "OP"... people kept pointing out that gorges are support unit yet when gorges are bile bombing bases I don't see any of the same complaints. If i can force a beacon I've done enough economic damage that its worth sacrificing a gorge.
its funny all the complaints when spit was "OP"... people kept pointing out that gorges are support unit yet when gorges are bile bombing bases I don't see any of the same complaints. If i can force a beacon I've done enough economic damage that its worth sacrificing a gorge.
Well truth be told, the spit complaints are a different issue. When they were arguing gorges were support classes, it was because spit was able to kill a marine 1 on 1 with ease (let's NOT ARGUE about this in the bilebomb thread) and that as a support class they shouldn't be able to do that. On the other hand, bilebomb is a support ability (it doesn't kill players) and as such the support class-argument doesn't really apply.
Although, GL-welder attachment 10 res weapon pl0x, UWE? :P
its funny all the complaints when spit was "OP"... people kept pointing out that gorges are support unit yet when gorges are bile bombing bases I don't see any of the same complaints. If i can force a beacon I've done enough economic damage that its worth sacrificing a gorge.
We're long past the point of gorges being only support units.
Its not bile nor the gorge that is the issue here. Its the mechanic that one player can pay 10 rez and win the game due to a long range high dps skill and a notification system that doesn't work.
If you've gotten to the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by an onos with two bilebombing gorges, then you've already lost.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
If you've gotten to the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by an onos with two bilebombing gorges, then you've already lost.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
This is EXTREMELY common. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a winning game due to a couple of bile bombers hitting a power node way behind the front line. Tier 3 weapon and armor? Exos? Swimming in res? Doesn't matter, game over.
Most of you will say the solution is to have someone defending the power node; that doesn't work. Having a couple of people floating between power-nodes just results in a game of ring around the rosey with the bombers and almost always results in either A.)Wasting time by distracting marines or B.)A power node goes down. If you decide to have more marines on defense, guess what? You are turtling, and that always leads to a loss.
It's completely unfair that the aliens have a "push button to win" when attacking marines. Marines have to put in the effort to completely destroy an alien base, why shouldn't aliens be the same?
Batteries need to power structures like they used to.
anyone that thinks the current bile is fine is naive or only plays with every competent comms and marines.
Two assumptions. Both wrong. One of them insulting.
The warning system is the clear issue. With a better warning system, Commanders will be notified of an attack and be able to respond faster.
It would be funny if the warning system were improved and Bile Bomb was weakened. Then there would be threads complaining about Gorges being fairly useless offensively and more questioning of its role in NS2.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling(or implement a maximum DoT stack from bile that's comparable to what a single Gorge can do). Multiple Gorges biling can still do a lot of damage by targeting multiple parts of the base at once.
I don't know that that completely fixes the issue, but that combined with fixing alerts would go a long way.
Comments
....
are you being serious?
your answer is commander needs to beacon in half a second?
*shakes head*
i cant even begin to process the backwards logic on this.
go try being commander and do what you just suggested, see how it works out.
Its 'easy' to bile a marine base.. Guess what?
Said base is also 'easy' to bite as a skulk. I did it plenty.
one base guard is all you need.
Yeah, except that Whips are hard counters to GLs. Bile has no such hard counter. So that makes whatever point you were trying to make pretty moot.
The bottom line for me is this: the cheap cost of gorges, the ability for skulks to evolve into gorges in hard to shoot areas, the flaky notification system, the rapid time it takes for bile to kill power nodes, the seriously detrimental effect that power outage has in the marine main base... all of that allows Aliens to wreck marine bases and end the game faster and with far less investment making it easier for them to win. If it is easier for Aliens to win, then the game is imbalanced.
Now I'm just waiting for someone to say ... no, this is an asymmetric game... just because one side is able to win easier doesn't mean it's imbalanced...
I'll just go hang out in Marine vs Marine from now on...
Nano the powernode
Always keep enough res for beacon
Beacon
Bile is fine
I see you point. From experience, competent Marines (matching competent Aliens) can be just as destructive. Marines can devastate poorly guarded bases, at practically any point in the game. They don't have to wait till a second Hive.
The 1-2 on guard duty can float, bouncing between bases, not straying to far. I've played this role, when others preferred to push. It's pretty fun with little risk of death. Someone has to do it, when the team response is noticeably poor.
As for things being fine, I think once the Marine Alert system is improved, the Marine side will be better in most games.
I have no qualms with the bile ability but only its characteristics. Reduce the range and/or splash radius and the risk is commensurate with the reward.
Objection !
In NS1 you can see people get away with most ridiculous base layouts on huge servers because of how the constant marine spawning keeps the base safe or at least provides an early warning. Meanwhile in 6v6 my base layout and tech choise is sometimes dependent on the hive just to fend off the incoming baserushes and I have to be constantly aware of the open routes to my base and I occassionally have to ask one marine to fall back just to have some for of safety in case a baserush hits.
If power is down, all the marines have to return to base or the next skulkrush will end the game. If the marines come back, their forward pgs will go down. Either way, the aliens profit. Simply the threat of a gorge coming in, forcing marines to do guard duty is helping the aliens on the field.
The problem is simply that player vs player is totally unimportant for winning games. You win by doing economic damage and the best way to do that is kill structures.
Obviously the com can not watch everything perfectly at all times however if your hitting there base and the enemy is nowhere to be found they must be somewhere... likely killing your base!
At the end of the day when it comes to bio attacks on base the loss is more of an issue of a com that thought only of "what do I do to win" and never "what do I do to not lose".
What it comes down to though is that the commander is one player on a team of at least 5 FPS players. UWE has repeatedly said this is a shooter first RTS second. So should the game really end because of 10 seconds of inattentiveness on the part of the comm? That never happens on the alien side because there's nothing the alien comm can do to screw it up that badly. One way or the other, there has to be balance between the two teams when it comes to the responsibilities of the commander role. In a pub environment weak commanders are very common, so obviously the team that demands more skill from the comm will be at a disadvantage.
Random thought: in NS1, motion tracking made it much simpler for the commander to be aware of approaching danger to his base...
It's no wonder people say bile bomb is overpowered. It's because attacking players is meaningless in the big scheme of things. If PvP was more important in NS2 then bile bomb wouldn't be a very good weapon to use. (excluding using it against the craptastic EXO who is the only unit/structure in the entire game that is armor only.)
So yeah, in a game where it's all about player versus environment, it's no surprise that bile bomb would be seen as overpowered.
It makes sense, would make sentries from a waste of res to a thing you need to place stratetically (sentries still need line of sight, indirect hits with bile's aoe can take down sentries), but it would mean that a ninja-gorge would have tp either attack a less important target or have to spit down the sentry battery (or at lease an offending sentry), wich does take a while.
The image of "Don't move, I'm going to set you on fire to remove the acid" is rather amusing. Reminds me of TF2 logic.
Well truth be told, the spit complaints are a different issue. When they were arguing gorges were support classes, it was because spit was able to kill a marine 1 on 1 with ease (let's NOT ARGUE about this in the bilebomb thread) and that as a support class they shouldn't be able to do that. On the other hand, bilebomb is a support ability (it doesn't kill players) and as such the support class-argument doesn't really apply.
Although, GL-welder attachment 10 res weapon pl0x, UWE? :P
No rine can end the game in 30 seconds solo.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
This is EXTREMELY common. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a winning game due to a couple of bile bombers hitting a power node way behind the front line. Tier 3 weapon and armor? Exos? Swimming in res? Doesn't matter, game over.
Most of you will say the solution is to have someone defending the power node; that doesn't work. Having a couple of people floating between power-nodes just results in a game of ring around the rosey with the bombers and almost always results in either A.)Wasting time by distracting marines or B.)A power node goes down. If you decide to have more marines on defense, guess what? You are turtling, and that always leads to a loss.
It's completely unfair that the aliens have a "push button to win" when attacking marines. Marines have to put in the effort to completely destroy an alien base, why shouldn't aliens be the same?
Batteries need to power structures like they used to.
Two assumptions. Both wrong. One of them insulting.
The warning system is the clear issue. With a better warning system, Commanders will be notified of an attack and be able to respond faster.
It would be funny if the warning system were improved and Bile Bomb was weakened. Then there would be threads complaining about Gorges being fairly useless offensively and more questioning of its role in NS2.
I don't know that that completely fixes the issue, but that combined with fixing alerts would go a long way.