Point blank shotgun blast, grenade, charged railgun shot. Those will do the trick, usually. Grenade launcher not so much after the radius nerf, and the charged railgun is a two shot assuming carapace. Still, they effectively "kill" a lerk regardless by forcing it out of the battle.
Charged railgun doesnt 1 shot a Lerk without cara.
Lerk has 225/275hp and the railgun does 200 damage.
And if I watch my data for the sg. 10 bullet, 17 damage=> total damage= 170*1.3 (w3)=221 damage so, technically speaking, You need a second shot. =P
The problem isn't/hasn't been that JP+SG is too good.
Exos have been awful as long as I've been playing.
Dual exos do great DPS, but they're so slow that there's no real point in using them.
Of course there's a point. You use them to stay in base and defend while the team pushes. Prevented the old bile bomb rushes. Of course, you can only defend one base but *shrug*.
I personally liked hopping on the RT so Onos had a harder time Meleeing and I could get a higher view.
You get 3-4 Dual Exos together, and they'll wreak some havoc... in 15 minutes.
The problem is that they're too dependent on support to be effective.
3-4 Marines with JPs, regardless of the weapons they're using, can get to, and kill a hive before 3-4 Exos can get there(Map/Tech point depending. I'm thinking Flow Control ---> Turbine on Refinery).
@Frothybeverage you seem to be confused at how exos are meant to work. You say "The problem is that they're too dependent on support to be effective.", the thing is, the exos ARE the support. THEY support marines, not the other way around. They sit at the back and shoot over the marines at a distance for cover, they do NOT go in first.
Marines only need 2 chairs to win. Aliens need 3 hives to properly compete with 2 chairs and 2 hives to properly compete against 1 chair with upgrades.
Thats a fundamental flaw in this game's design. The marines should want 3 chairs, especially with how incredibly easy it is to lock down 2 tech points on most of the maps. Any 5 cap map is basically an automatic win for the marine team (assuming skill on both sides). Aliens without all 3 hives and full upgrades simply cannot take down a team of exo's and welders, it just cannot happen. Vital things like stomp and umbra are missing. Marines can basically insure victory within the first 2 minutes of the game by setting up phase between their main and 1 tech point.
With two equally skilled teams. Marines will win the game on 2 tech points and 4 res nodes, everytime. Their power level just increases as the time counts, its simply a matter of time. This is flawed. If its a 5 tech map, they might end up with a 3 hive vs 2 chair fight. If this happens, the marines can simply all ball up and hit a hive. The loss of a hive is WAY more serious than the loss of a 1 of the 2 chairs. All you lose is proto, and if you rushed a hive, you probably took it...so rebuild there in 1 minute flat. Anything lost is recovered in seconds, outside of maybe an advanced armory, which who needs that anyway? Both those guns are bad. Meanwhile, Aliens if they killed your tech point, have to rebuild an entire hive and any lost upgrades as a result of the hive that was hit. At BEST this puts them at an evolution disadvantage for MINUTES, even with multiple gorges spraying the hive (which, if they have exo's, you won't have).
Honestly, I don't see how Aliens are suppose to stack up. Before the aliens were winning because skulks were unnaturally difficult to hit. Now they are really really easy to hit and the aliens got nothing to compensate for that at all.
I haven't even mentioned how lackluster the alien upgrades are.
Camo: Easily countered by an Obs, making it useless. Patch nerfed it so bad that it requires camping and ambush to work...meaning you aren't attacking, which means marines are sitting pretty on 4 res and 2 chairs. If your comm goes camo, you will probably lose. By the time you correct the error and get carapace, marines have weapons 2.
Silence: Its nice to have but it doesn't alter the outcome of an encounter with the enemy. Its like a perk to me. Not better than anything else, therefore not worth taking pre-3rd hive.
Celerity: You're faster as long as you aren't in combat, in a game based upon combat. Tell me, why would I want an upgrade that doesn't work at ALL when I'm doing the primary job I'm suppose to be doing?
Adrenaline: Required late game for almost everyone. Certainly more useful than celerity right now, but worthless early game. 2nd hive upgrade 100% of the time.
Carapace: The only obvious upgrade choice on alien. Nothing else is better than this. Why? IT WORKS IN COMBAT.
Regen: Handy for lerking...yeah, thats all I got. Also doesn't work in combat.
Does the marine armor stop working in combat? How about weapons upgrades? How about jetpacks, do THEY work in combat? Cause Jetpacks are pretty darn similar to Celerity right? Movement improvement. Bites should drain the jetpack tank, I'm sure those alien teeth could pierce a fuel tank. That would make jetpacks properly balanced against this horrible celerity nerf.
Anyway. Aliens suck to play right now. They are not at all fun. Gorge is punished by not getting to be any other lifeform all game long. All the other high life forms are punished with being reduced to a class that has almost no combat effectiveness past pre-2nd hive early game until they can save up again...marines just pick up the dropped weapon.
Asymmetrical is one thing. This game is horribly unbalanced.
Point blank shotgun blast, grenade, charged railgun shot. Those will do the trick, usually. Grenade launcher not so much after the radius nerf, and the charged railgun is a two shot assuming carapace. Still, they effectively "kill" a lerk regardless by forcing it out of the battle.
Charged railgun doesnt 1 shot a Lerk without cara.
Lerk has 225/275hp and the railgun does 200 damage.
And if I watch my data for the sg. 10 bullet, 17 damage=> total damage= 170*1.3 (w3)=221 damage so, technically speaking, You need a second shot. =P
The point was how it feels in practice. When you die to a point blank shotgun blast, or a grenade exposion, or a railgun gibbing, it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to avoid it.
Marines only need 2 chairs to win. Aliens need 3 hives to properly compete with 2 chairs and 2 hives to properly compete against 1 chair with upgrades.
Thats a fundamental flaw in this game's design. The marines should want 3 chairs, especially with how incredibly easy it is to lock down 2 tech points on most of the maps. Any 5 cap map is basically an automatic win for the marine team (assuming skill on both sides). Aliens without all 3 hives and full upgrades simply cannot take down a team of exo's and welders, it just cannot happen. Vital things like stomp and umbra are missing. Marines can basically insure victory within the first 2 minutes of the game by setting up phase between their main and 1 tech point.
Here's the dynamic I've noticed with regards to tech point control over 800 hours of play:
Firstly, there is no "equilibrium point".
From what I can tell, there is no state in which both teams are completely equally matched in terms of potential technology. A state in which they will remain unless something significant happens (power node rush/ players leaving/ afkers). This would essentially be a scenario where all combat occurs at the midpoint between marine territory and alien territory.
That isn't to say that it doesn't happen, it does. However, it is temporary. There are two times that I know of when this happens.
The first is around the 11-14 minute mark, when marines have 3 tech points, and aliens have 2. During this time, the aliens have maxed their 2 hive tech, and are fairly powerful. The marines, while having full access to all tech, have only been able to afford around 70-80% of upgrades. If aliens do not take one of the marine's 3 tech points during this, or defeat the marines altogether, the odds will shift to the marine's favor. By the 15th minute mark, marines will have 100% of their upgrades researched, and 2 hive aliens won't be able to compete, and will slowly be beaten.
Now you may say hang on, how is it fair that the marines and aliens have equal power at this point, yet the aliens are expected to take a tech point to avoid defeat? Well, the marines have equal power to the aliens, but are spread over 3/5ths of the map, compared to the alien's 2/5ths. This is why this stage of the game needs to be played extremely passively. The alien's strength does not lie in attacking the marine's directly, it lies in attacking the marines indirectly, and hitting where the marine's are not.
The second time this temporary equilibrium occurs is right after the marines lose the third tech point, between the 14-17 minute mark. During this time, the aliens become fully defensive (either through formal defence at a position (typically the building hive), or through hit and run attacks which are intended to divert marine attention, but not actually do lasting damage). In this situation, the marine's must push the aliens out of the third tech point before they research too much tech, or have the opportunity to use it. Another big factor, potentially even bigger than the upgrades, is that the aliens now control 60% of the map, and 60% of the resources. The primary reason why this marine assault is not a cake walk, even with the 100% tech they should have now achieved, is because a large amount of resources are typically lost in the defense of the third tech point.
In almost all circumstances, save some relating mainly to map imbalances, 100% tech aliens are vastly more powerful than 100% tech marines. The exceptions occur in rooms which are simply too difficult to assault, such as Operations, Datacore, and Warehouse. This is a problem because marines can critical mass through team resources, whereas aliens cannot.
The reason I explain this is because, in my humble opinion, the dynamic illustrated above is far from a "fundamental flaw". It creates tension, it provides opportunity, and its constant action, with no permanent equilibrium. I don't think it would work any other way.
With two equally skilled teams. Marines will win the game on 2 tech points and 4 res nodes, everytime.
Careful, I was labeled a troll when I suggested this some weeks ago.
The reason this strategy works is because it avoids the potential and likely resource loss involved in losing a third tech point, and instead fast tracks the 100% tech process. However, it isn't easy to pull off, and puts almost no pressure on the alien team, making for a perfect alien game. It certainly does not work "everytime".
The point was how it feels in practice. When you die to a point blank shotgun blast, or a grenade exposion, or a railgun gibbing, it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to avoid it.
Worse than that, it looks like you dodged it but got farked anyway due to lag compensation. Dat feel when you see the shot that kills you miss.
Incorrect, Marines need 3 tech positions to win. Note, not to compete but to win. If Aliens have 3 hives, the marines are LOSING if they don't also control more res to win.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Your comments regarding upgrades:
Camo: Agreed.
Silence: VERY VERY good on skulks. Good marines are often 3/4 ears 1/4 eyesight. You can easily follow and ambush marines that are expecting to hear you coming. Unfortunately, it's normally better on higher skilled players that have good situation awareness.
Adren: Good once Leap is researched for skulks in 2nd hive. You're right that it's bad for early game which is why comms normally get Celerity.
Carapace and Regen: what you said.
I'd say perhaps play a few more games and see how aliens win with good teamwork. It's harder now with the skulk acceleration bug(so the win rate isn't 50:50 but rather "maybe" 60:50) but with good teamwork you can still win.
Look for a server with good communication (if you can hear chatter and orders when you join the team, it's normally a good sign), you'll find you win more.
The point was how it feels in practice. When you die to a point blank shotgun blast, or a grenade exposion, or a railgun gibbing, it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to avoid it.
Worse than that, it looks like you dodged it but got farked anyway due to lag compensation. Dat feel when you see the shot that kills you miss.
That won't be too huge of an issue sooner or later. Probably later, but I can hope for sooner. My favorites have always been leaping away, seeing the person shoot the ground where you were, then you die in midair.
Marines only need 2 chairs to win. Aliens need 3 hives to properly compete with 2 chairs and 2 hives to properly compete against 1 chair with upgrades.
Thats a fundamental flaw in this game's design. The marines should want 3 chairs, especially with how incredibly easy it is to lock down 2 tech points on most of the maps. Any 5 cap map is basically an automatic win for the marine team (assuming skill on both sides). Aliens without all 3 hives and full upgrades simply cannot take down a team of exo's and welders, it just cannot happen. Vital things like stomp and umbra are missing. Marines can basically insure victory within the first 2 minutes of the game by setting up phase between their main and 1 tech point.
Here's the dynamic I've noticed with regards to tech point control over 800 hours of play:
Firstly, there is no "equilibrium point".
From what I can tell, there is no state in which both teams are completely equally matched in terms of potential technology. A state in which they will remain unless something significant happens (power node rush/ players leaving/ afkers). This would essentially be a scenario where all combat occurs at the midpoint between marine territory and alien territory.
That isn't to say that it doesn't happen, it does. However, it is temporary. There are two times that I know of when this happens.
The first is around the 11-14 minute mark, when marines have 3 tech points, and aliens have 2. During this time, the aliens have maxed their 2 hive tech, and are fairly powerful. The marines, while having full access to all tech, have only been able to afford around 70-80% of upgrades. If aliens do not take one of the marine's 3 tech points during this, or defeat the marines altogether, the odds will shift to the marine's favor. By the 15th minute mark, marines will have 100% of their upgrades researched, and 2 hive aliens won't be able to compete, and will slowly be beaten.
Now you may say hang on, how is it fair that the marines and aliens have equal power at this point, yet the aliens are expected to take a tech point to avoid defeat? Well, the marines have equal power to the aliens, but are spread over 3/5ths of the map, compared to the alien's 2/5ths. This is why this stage of the game needs to be played extremely passively. The alien's strength does not lie in attacking the marine's directly, it lies in attacking the marines indirectly, and hitting where the marine's are not.
The second time this temporary equilibrium occurs is right after the marines lose the third tech point, between the 14-17 minute mark. During this time, the aliens become fully defensive (either through formal defence at a position (typically the building hive), or through hit and run attacks which are intended to divert marine attention, but not actually do lasting damage). In this situation, the marine's must push the aliens out of the third tech point before they research too much tech, or have the opportunity to use it. Another big factor, potentially even bigger than the upgrades, is that the aliens now control 60% of the map, and 60% of the resources. The primary reason why this marine assault is not a cake walk, even with the 100% tech they should have now achieved, is because a large amount of resources are typically lost in the defense of the third tech point.
In almost all circumstances, save some relating mainly to map imbalances, 100% tech aliens are vastly more powerful than 100% tech marines. The exceptions occur in rooms which are simply too difficult to assault, such as Operations, Datacore, and Warehouse. This is a problem because marines can critical mass through team resources, whereas aliens cannot.
The reason I explain this is because, in my humble opinion, the dynamic illustrated above is far from a "fundamental flaw". It creates tension, it provides opportunity, and its constant action, with no permanent equilibrium. I don't think it would work any other way.
With two equally skilled teams. Marines will win the game on 2 tech points and 4 res nodes, everytime.
Careful, I was labeled a troll when I suggested this some weeks ago.
The reason this strategy works is because it avoids the potential and likely resource loss involved in losing a third tech point, and instead fast tracks the 100% tech process. However, it isn't easy to pull off, and puts almost no pressure on the alien team, making for a perfect alien game. It certainly does not work "everytime".
Those situations are moot if you just go 2tech, 4 node turtle till tech'ed. Especially if its a 4 tech map. If you simply turtle and prevent the aliens from getting 3 hives. You will eventually win the game, everytime. It doesn't happen everytime because of issues with flux in player skill. Even Onos don't stand up very long against multiple marines with shotguns and w3. If its a 5 point map, you simply take 2 points and prevent the 3rd hive until you eventually win.
2 hive vs 2 tech early, like you said, 10 minutes or so. Is barely back and forth and interesting. Often this is the point the game ends however. With one side making a successful push the other cannot recover from. However, if its a hive that dies, thats GG, there is no coming back from that. If one chair dies, the marines are still VERY much in the game, they have lost almost nothing as a result. Thats a bit of a problem IMO.
I disagree that 100% marine is not as powerful as 100% upgraded alien. A stock 100% upgraded marine has almost 200% more combat effectiveness than at game start. A 100% upgraded skulk has 20 more armor and 2 other upgrades that don't do anything to make him more effective in combat. Most of the alien team will be skulks most of the time. If you can kill the fades and oni when they show, which isn't hard with W3 shotguns and/or exo's you're home free until you make that push.
Honestly, take a group of your friends or something and play 9v9. Play a 4 tech map. Setup a 2 tech, 4 res turtle with just minor res and cyst harassment and try to tell me marines don't win this situation everytime. Aliens simply have nothing they can do. If they attempt to attack you, you kill them. So they have to save their res for fade/lerk/onos, but your tech will be ready for that...and murder them. They'll be out of res and you just walk on down to hive(s) and win the game.
Incorrect, Marines need 3 tech positions to win. Note, not to compete but to win. If Aliens have 3 hives, the marines are LOSING if they don't also control more res to win.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Stomp is fairly vital to knock down the welders and give you a chance to kill exo's. The umbra covers the onos running in to use stomp. I rarely see aliens win games on 2 hives unless the marines are bad. If the aliens have 2 hives and the marines have 2 tech points. Its just a matter of time, as I've been saying, until the aliens lose.
I used to play a LOT of NS1, 10 some years ago now. I liked it, thats why I'm here now.
I started with NS2 just before this last update. So I'm less keen to the adjustment to the skulk, but I've found my ability to kill them as a marine has more than doubled since the patch. Before I was struggling to hit them. Now I can take on multiple 1v1 encounters in a row and barely take a hit sometimes...I didn't suddenly remember how to shoot overnight. I'm old and slow now. The game changed.
No, losing a chair is not anywhere close to losing a hive. How long does it take to build a new hive? How long does it take to replace EVERY lost structure and therefore marine upgrade? Hint: Marines can get the power back, the chair up, and every lost building back in under 2 minutes. The hive is at like 30% by then, IF it was dropped at the exact same time, which won't happen. Also, beacon. Aliens have no beacon. Marines can beacon home if it looks like they'll lose to a sneak attack.
Remember I said marines have 2 chairs, well they will have new IPs as well. Unless the aliens hit and kill BOTH in the time it takes your team to sneak attack the alien hive in exo suits...your situation is incorrect. This isn't even taking into account that if that hive the marines killed was the CRAG hive, you're in a whole new sorta mess.
Power nodes aren't weak, they take a long time to take down. Compare that to 1 or 2 marines running around behind your lines killing random cysts, completely preventing you from expanding at all. I don't get the piss and moan about power nodes at all. The ONLY time I see marines loss is when power nodes go down in bases. They those nodes didn't exist, marines would almost certainly never lose a round.
Also, no, marines don't NEED 3 points to win. But it certainly does accelerate the process. Even if Aliens manage to get 3 living hives, the marines still have a very easy path to victory on just 2 chairs.
Incorrect, Marines need 3 tech positions to win. Note, not to compete but to win. If Aliens have 3 hives, the marines are LOSING if they don't also control more res to win.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Stomp is fairly vital to knock down the welders and give you a chance to kill exo's. The umbra covers the onos running in to use stomp. I rarely see aliens win games on 2 hives unless the marines are bad. If the aliens have 2 hives and the marines have 2 tech points. Its just a matter of time, as I've been saying, until the aliens lose.
I used to play a LOT of NS1, 10 some years ago now. I liked it, thats why I'm here now.
I started with NS2 just before this last update. So I'm less keen to the adjustment to the skulk, but I've found my ability to kill them as a marine has more than doubled since the patch. Before I was struggling to hit them. Now I can take on multiple 1v1 encounters in a row and barely take a hit sometimes...I didn't suddenly remember how to shoot overnight. I'm old and slow now. The game changed.
No, losing a chair is not anywhere close to losing a hive. How long does it take to build a new hive? How long does it take to replace EVERY lost structure and therefore marine upgrade? Hint: Marines can get the power back, the chair up, and every lost building back in under 2 minutes. The hive is at like 30% by then, IF it was dropped at the exact same time, which won't happen. Also, beacon. Aliens have no beacon. Marines can beacon home if it looks like they'll lose to a sneak attack.
Remember I said marines have 2 chairs, well they will have new IPs as well. Unless the aliens hit and kill BOTH in the time it takes your team to sneak attack the alien hive in exo suits...your situation is incorrect. This isn't even taking into account that if that hive the marines killed was the CRAG hive, you're in a whole new sorta mess.
Power nodes aren't weak, they take a long time to take down. Compare that to 1 or 2 marines running around behind your lines killing random cysts, completely preventing you from expanding at all. I don't get the piss and moan about power nodes at all. The ONLY time I see marines loss is when power nodes go down in bases. They those nodes didn't exist, marines would almost certainly never lose a round.
Also, no, marines don't NEED 3 points to win. But it certainly does accelerate the process. Even if Aliens manage to get 3 living hives, the marines still have a very easy path to victory on just 2 chairs.
1st paragraph: I guess we just have different Anecdotal evidence then. More often than not, if it's 2 hives vs 2 CCs it's even in the games I play (assuming it's not Marines have locked down but not built a base in the 3rd point). If aliens go 3 hives (as in the 3rd hive gets up) it's game except for rare circumstances for me.
2nd Para: Yeah, SkulkvsMarine is in a slanted state. Hopefully they'll hotfix the bug soon.
3rd and 4th para: Well, you have to remember all situations are circumstancial. However, if it becomes 2 hives to 1 CC, marines lose. The loss of the marine's base is considerably more painful than losing a hive in every game I've played. If the power goes down, the base goes down if the marine team doesn't have a substantial force there. AA, 2 IPs, CC, Upgrades, Proto(maybe, it's rarer nowadays), all down. As it stands, the alien strategies pre-patch are still in effect and still work (if you're on equivalent skill levels) Exos still die when the comm beacons to save the base, Marines still lose when one of their base's power is knocked out and they weren't beaconed back, etc. Late game NS2 is still the same. It's the early game Skulk-Marine dynamic which has been knocked around that's causing so many problems.
As for the power node... Flamewars and battles have been fought about it. The fact they had to nerf Bile specifically because the Powernode (8 seconds with 2 gorges pre-patch) was dying faster than a zergling in attacks should tell you something. Maybe things have changed, but it's still known as the I-WIN button for a reason, and that's not because it's a fortress of constitution and armor.
Let me put it this way, why weren't you talking about this before the patch when powernodes were gorge/onos candy and marines had to have military communication, accuracy, dodging, and map awareness to win and the competitive win ratio was 65 aliens/35 marines?. (accuracy and dodging is the one thing we need less now due to skulk hitreg fix/accell bug)
Incorrect, Marines need 3 tech positions to win. Note, not to compete but to win. If Aliens have 3 hives, the marines are LOSING if they don't also control more res to win.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Stomp is fairly vital to knock down the welders and give you a chance to kill exo's. The umbra covers the onos running in to use stomp. I rarely see aliens win games on 2 hives unless the marines are bad. If the aliens have 2 hives and the marines have 2 tech points. Its just a matter of time, as I've been saying, until the aliens lose.
I used to play a LOT of NS1, 10 some years ago now. I liked it, thats why I'm here now.
I started with NS2 just before this last update. So I'm less keen to the adjustment to the skulk, but I've found my ability to kill them as a marine has more than doubled since the patch. Before I was struggling to hit them. Now I can take on multiple 1v1 encounters in a row and barely take a hit sometimes...I didn't suddenly remember how to shoot overnight. I'm old and slow now. The game changed.
No, losing a chair is not anywhere close to losing a hive. How long does it take to build a new hive? How long does it take to replace EVERY lost structure and therefore marine upgrade? Hint: Marines can get the power back, the chair up, and every lost building back in under 2 minutes. The hive is at like 30% by then, IF it was dropped at the exact same time, which won't happen. Also, beacon. Aliens have no beacon. Marines can beacon home if it looks like they'll lose to a sneak attack.
Remember I said marines have 2 chairs, well they will have new IPs as well. Unless the aliens hit and kill BOTH in the time it takes your team to sneak attack the alien hive in exo suits...your situation is incorrect. This isn't even taking into account that if that hive the marines killed was the CRAG hive, you're in a whole new sorta mess.
Power nodes aren't weak, they take a long time to take down. Compare that to 1 or 2 marines running around behind your lines killing random cysts, completely preventing you from expanding at all. I don't get the piss and moan about power nodes at all. The ONLY time I see marines loss is when power nodes go down in bases. They those nodes didn't exist, marines would almost certainly never lose a round.
Also, no, marines don't NEED 3 points to win. But it certainly does accelerate the process. Even if Aliens manage to get 3 living hives, the marines still have a very easy path to victory on just 2 chairs.
1st paragraph: I guess we just have different Anecdotal evidence then. More often than not, if it's 2 hives vs 2 CCs it's even in the games I play (assuming it's not Marines have locked down but not built a base in the 3rd point). If aliens go 3 hives (as in the 3rd hive gets up) it's game except for rare circumstances for me.
2nd Para: Yeah, SkulkvsMarine is in a slanted state. Hopefully they'll hotfix the bug soon.
3rd and 4th para: Well, you have to remember all situations are circumstancial. However, if it becomes 2 hives to 1 CC, marines lose. The loss of the marine's base is considerably more painful than losing a hive in every game I've played. If the power goes down, the base goes down if the marine team doesn't have a substantial force there. AA, 2 IPs, CC, Upgrades, Proto(maybe, it's rarer nowadays), all down. As it stands, the alien strategies pre-patch are still in effect and still work (if you're on equivalent skill levels) Exos still die when the comm beacons to save the base, Marines still lose when one of their base's power is knocked out and they weren't beaconed back, etc. Late game NS2 is still the same. It's the early game Skulk-Marine dynamic which has been knocked around that's causing so many problems.
As for the power node... Flamewars and battles have been fought about it. The fact they had to nerf Bile specifically because the Powernode (8 seconds with 2 gorges pre-patch) was dying faster than a zergling in attacks should tell you something. Maybe things have changed, but it's still known as the I-WIN button for a reason, and that's not because it's a fortress of constitution and armor.
Let me put it this way, why weren't you talking about this before the patch when powernodes were gorge/onos candy and marines had to have military communication, accuracy, dodging, and map awareness to win and the competitive win ratio was 65 aliens/35 marines?. (accuracy and dodging is the one thing we need less now due to skulk hitreg fix/accell bug)
Well, if the marines are fully teched, they can still win 1 CC vs 2 hives, assuming they have at least 3 nodes intact. 6 players with w3 shotguns can work magic sometimes, 2+1 comm left to defend. The only time the marines are completely out of the game is when they are completely surrounded.
I wasn't talking then because I hadn't been playing NS2 long enough to get a feel for how matches played out yet, I was spending the majority of my playtime learning the maps and getting my sense of direction so I didn't have to always look at the map, this took a few days to get all the maps in my brain RAM . I did notice Aliens winning most games, but NS1 was this way as well when it came to pubs. In competitive play, Marines won 70% of the time, Aliens won 70% on the pub servers...I assumed since so much of NS2 is the same as NS1 in terms of a lot of the mechanics, that this disparity would also likely be the same. (Health, armor, damage and kill speeds...all lifted)
Now however, marines win basically every game that goes "the distance" (2 living hives and beyond). A lot of that is the marine/skulk play for sure. Some of the rest of it is directly related to other nerfs and buffs.
BTW - Marines have won 55% of all games this weekend on NS2stats supported servers. For everyone pointing to NS2stats when I first jumped on here 2 days ago to mention that marines were winning all the time as evidence against that idea...I'm right and you're wrong. Suck it
Well the issue the economy is considerably different from NS1. The reason marines are winning more now in "the distance" is because they're getting more res early on because they're winning engagements causing the aliens to have less res.
The marines "winning all the time" is anecdotal evidence. I've personally experienced a ~50/50 win ratio. Personally, I find the late game mechanics are the exact same as they've always been (except ninja power-node rushing has been fixed so the alert properly sound now and the commander has been given more seconds to beacon).
I think, if you observe games by their early game they're a better indication of how your pub games will go. Since early game right now basically goes to the marines, of course alien wins will suffer. However, that's a result of the aliens worse economy (from bad early game) meaning less high res life forms and slower high-res life forms coming out. That would be why you might be seeing a weaker late game Aliens presence and losing at 2.5/3 hives. Of course, it's conjecture without numbers but I think we can all agree Alien's early game has been hit hard which have repercussions on late game.
Point blank shotgun blast, grenade, charged railgun shot. Those will do the trick, usually. Grenade launcher not so much after the radius nerf, and the charged railgun is a two shot assuming carapace. Still, they effectively "kill" a lerk regardless by forcing it out of the battle.
Charged railgun doesnt 1 shot a Lerk without cara.
Lerk has 225/275hp and the railgun does 200 damage.
And if I watch my data for the sg. 10 bullet, 17 damage=> total damage= 170*1.3 (w3)=221 damage so, technically speaking, You need a second shot. =P
The point was how it feels in practice. When you die to a point blank shotgun blast, or a grenade exposion, or a railgun gibbing, it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to avoid it.
that's great, but you didn't say that before... we could all have fun fabricating our own anecdotes to support our argument.
btw i never feel 'one-shotted' as a lerk, because if i have <80% hp i just don't mess around with shotgun/railgun. on the other hand you seem to be one of those guys who takes a big hit and stays in, because if you die it will provide you with more ammunition and determination to whine about non-balance issues which are actually non-skill issues..
Incorrect, Marines need 3 tech positions to win. Note, not to compete but to win. If Aliens have 3 hives, the marines are LOSING if they don't also control more res to win.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Stomp is fairly vital to knock down the welders and give you a chance to kill exo's. The umbra covers the onos running in to use stomp. I rarely see aliens win games on 2 hives unless the marines are bad. If the aliens have 2 hives and the marines have 2 tech points. Its just a matter of time, as I've been saying, until the aliens lose.
I used to play a LOT of NS1, 10 some years ago now. I liked it, thats why I'm here now.
I started with NS2 just before this last update. So I'm less keen to the adjustment to the skulk, but I've found my ability to kill them as a marine has more than doubled since the patch. Before I was struggling to hit them. Now I can take on multiple 1v1 encounters in a row and barely take a hit sometimes...I didn't suddenly remember how to shoot overnight. I'm old and slow now. The game changed.
No, losing a chair is not anywhere close to losing a hive. How long does it take to build a new hive? How long does it take to replace EVERY lost structure and therefore marine upgrade? Hint: Marines can get the power back, the chair up, and every lost building back in under 2 minutes. The hive is at like 30% by then, IF it was dropped at the exact same time, which won't happen. Also, beacon. Aliens have no beacon. Marines can beacon home if it looks like they'll lose to a sneak attack.
Remember I said marines have 2 chairs, well they will have new IPs as well. Unless the aliens hit and kill BOTH in the time it takes your team to sneak attack the alien hive in exo suits...your situation is incorrect. This isn't even taking into account that if that hive the marines killed was the CRAG hive, you're in a whole new sorta mess.
Power nodes aren't weak, they take a long time to take down. Compare that to 1 or 2 marines running around behind your lines killing random cysts, completely preventing you from expanding at all. I don't get the piss and moan about power nodes at all. The ONLY time I see marines loss is when power nodes go down in bases. They those nodes didn't exist, marines would almost certainly never lose a round.
Also, no, marines don't NEED 3 points to win. But it certainly does accelerate the process. Even if Aliens manage to get 3 living hives, the marines still have a very easy path to victory on just 2 chairs.
1st paragraph: I guess we just have different Anecdotal evidence then. More often than not, if it's 2 hives vs 2 CCs it's even in the games I play (assuming it's not Marines have locked down but not built a base in the 3rd point). If aliens go 3 hives (as in the 3rd hive gets up) it's game except for rare circumstances for me.
2nd Para: Yeah, SkulkvsMarine is in a slanted state. Hopefully they'll hotfix the bug soon.
3rd and 4th para: Well, you have to remember all situations are circumstancial. However, if it becomes 2 hives to 1 CC, marines lose. The loss of the marine's base is considerably more painful than losing a hive in every game I've played. If the power goes down, the base goes down if the marine team doesn't have a substantial force there. AA, 2 IPs, CC, Upgrades, Proto(maybe, it's rarer nowadays), all down. As it stands, the alien strategies pre-patch are still in effect and still work (if you're on equivalent skill levels) Exos still die when the comm beacons to save the base, Marines still lose when one of their base's power is knocked out and they weren't beaconed back, etc. Late game NS2 is still the same. It's the early game Skulk-Marine dynamic which has been knocked around that's causing so many problems.
As for the power node... Flamewars and battles have been fought about it. The fact they had to nerf Bile specifically because the Powernode (8 seconds with 2 gorges pre-patch) was dying faster than a zergling in attacks should tell you something. Maybe things have changed, but it's still known as the I-WIN button for a reason, and that's not because it's a fortress of constitution and armor.
Let me put it this way, why weren't you talking about this before the patch when powernodes were gorge/onos candy and marines had to have military communication, accuracy, dodging, and map awareness to win and the competitive win ratio was 65 aliens/35 marines?. (accuracy and dodging is the one thing we need less now due to skulk hitreg fix/accell bug)
Well, if the marines are fully teched, they can still win 1 CC vs 2 hives, assuming they have at least 3 nodes intact. 6 players with w3 shotguns can work magic sometimes, 2+1 comm left to defend. The only time the marines are completely out of the game is when they are completely surrounded.
I wasn't talking then because I hadn't been playing NS2 long enough to get a feel for how matches played out yet, I was spending the majority of my playtime learning the maps and getting my sense of direction so I didn't have to always look at the map, this took a few days to get all the maps in my brain RAM . I did notice Aliens winning most games, but NS1 was this way as well when it came to pubs. In competitive play, Marines won 70% of the time, Aliens won 70% on the pub servers...I assumed since so much of NS2 is the same as NS1 in terms of a lot of the mechanics, that this disparity would also likely be the same. (Health, armor, damage and kill speeds...all lifted)
Now however, marines win basically every game that goes "the distance" (2 living hives and beyond). A lot of that is the marine/skulk play for sure. Some of the rest of it is directly related to other nerfs and buffs.
BTW - Marines have won 55% of all games this weekend on NS2stats supported servers. For everyone pointing to NS2stats when I first jumped on here 2 days ago to mention that marines were winning all the time as evidence against that idea...I'm right and you're wrong. Suck it
55% is 'all the time' ? errrrrrr yeah dude.... you're right.... must be one of those mathematical savants.
i don't know about others, but i'd like to see some of your gameplay. you've told a lot of stories which don't accurately portray any pub match i've played nor comp game i've watched.
therefore i want to see what you experience. record some demo's.
A friend of mine said what made sc1 so great was that although some aspects of certain races were OP, the community found ways to address these through strategies and made it that much more entertaining. In comparison, sc2 is too accommodating and became quite stale.
Yes, there are factors that make this much more difficult in NS2 such as community size(talent ratio) and reliance on a team. But this is what strategy is. Not to say that we shouldn't discuss making changes, but too accommodating can be detrimental.
Comments
Really a rail gun is weaker than a w3 SG?
Max damage, sg is better.
Railgun isnt affected by weapons upgrade.
Which game did that clip come from?
Football.
It's like Madden, but people play it in real life and not just on XBox.
;-)
Well I think we can all see something is wrong with that.
Exos have been awful as long as I've been playing.
Dual exos do great DPS, but they're so slow that there's no real point in using them.
Of course there's a point. You use them to stay in base and defend while the team pushes. Prevented the old bile bomb rushes. Of course, you can only defend one base but *shrug*.
I personally liked hopping on the RT so Onos had a harder time Meleeing and I could get a higher view.
You get 3-4 Dual Exos together, and they'll wreak some havoc... in 15 minutes.
The problem is that they're too dependent on support to be effective.
3-4 Marines with JPs, regardless of the weapons they're using, can get to, and kill a hive before 3-4 Exos can get there(Map/Tech point depending. I'm thinking Flow Control ---> Turbine on Refinery).
ARCs+Exos bringing up the rear, with marines equipped with flamethrowers/SGs leading the charge.
The problem is that without 2-3 welders(Or a horde of MACs), those Exos will die.
Dual claw exos.
Then Robbaz will definitely play the game and be the ultimate nipple inspector.
Thats a fundamental flaw in this game's design. The marines should want 3 chairs, especially with how incredibly easy it is to lock down 2 tech points on most of the maps. Any 5 cap map is basically an automatic win for the marine team (assuming skill on both sides). Aliens without all 3 hives and full upgrades simply cannot take down a team of exo's and welders, it just cannot happen. Vital things like stomp and umbra are missing. Marines can basically insure victory within the first 2 minutes of the game by setting up phase between their main and 1 tech point.
With two equally skilled teams. Marines will win the game on 2 tech points and 4 res nodes, everytime. Their power level just increases as the time counts, its simply a matter of time. This is flawed. If its a 5 tech map, they might end up with a 3 hive vs 2 chair fight. If this happens, the marines can simply all ball up and hit a hive. The loss of a hive is WAY more serious than the loss of a 1 of the 2 chairs. All you lose is proto, and if you rushed a hive, you probably took it...so rebuild there in 1 minute flat. Anything lost is recovered in seconds, outside of maybe an advanced armory, which who needs that anyway? Both those guns are bad. Meanwhile, Aliens if they killed your tech point, have to rebuild an entire hive and any lost upgrades as a result of the hive that was hit. At BEST this puts them at an evolution disadvantage for MINUTES, even with multiple gorges spraying the hive (which, if they have exo's, you won't have).
Honestly, I don't see how Aliens are suppose to stack up. Before the aliens were winning because skulks were unnaturally difficult to hit. Now they are really really easy to hit and the aliens got nothing to compensate for that at all.
I haven't even mentioned how lackluster the alien upgrades are.
Camo: Easily countered by an Obs, making it useless. Patch nerfed it so bad that it requires camping and ambush to work...meaning you aren't attacking, which means marines are sitting pretty on 4 res and 2 chairs. If your comm goes camo, you will probably lose. By the time you correct the error and get carapace, marines have weapons 2.
Silence: Its nice to have but it doesn't alter the outcome of an encounter with the enemy. Its like a perk to me. Not better than anything else, therefore not worth taking pre-3rd hive.
Celerity: You're faster as long as you aren't in combat, in a game based upon combat. Tell me, why would I want an upgrade that doesn't work at ALL when I'm doing the primary job I'm suppose to be doing?
Adrenaline: Required late game for almost everyone. Certainly more useful than celerity right now, but worthless early game. 2nd hive upgrade 100% of the time.
Carapace: The only obvious upgrade choice on alien. Nothing else is better than this. Why? IT WORKS IN COMBAT.
Regen: Handy for lerking...yeah, thats all I got. Also doesn't work in combat.
Does the marine armor stop working in combat? How about weapons upgrades? How about jetpacks, do THEY work in combat? Cause Jetpacks are pretty darn similar to Celerity right? Movement improvement. Bites should drain the jetpack tank, I'm sure those alien teeth could pierce a fuel tank. That would make jetpacks properly balanced against this horrible celerity nerf.
Anyway. Aliens suck to play right now. They are not at all fun. Gorge is punished by not getting to be any other lifeform all game long. All the other high life forms are punished with being reduced to a class that has almost no combat effectiveness past pre-2nd hive early game until they can save up again...marines just pick up the dropped weapon.
Asymmetrical is one thing. This game is horribly unbalanced.
The point was how it feels in practice. When you die to a point blank shotgun blast, or a grenade exposion, or a railgun gibbing, it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to avoid it.
Here's the dynamic I've noticed with regards to tech point control over 800 hours of play:
Firstly, there is no "equilibrium point".
From what I can tell, there is no state in which both teams are completely equally matched in terms of potential technology. A state in which they will remain unless something significant happens (power node rush/ players leaving/ afkers). This would essentially be a scenario where all combat occurs at the midpoint between marine territory and alien territory.
That isn't to say that it doesn't happen, it does. However, it is temporary. There are two times that I know of when this happens.
The first is around the 11-14 minute mark, when marines have 3 tech points, and aliens have 2. During this time, the aliens have maxed their 2 hive tech, and are fairly powerful. The marines, while having full access to all tech, have only been able to afford around 70-80% of upgrades. If aliens do not take one of the marine's 3 tech points during this, or defeat the marines altogether, the odds will shift to the marine's favor. By the 15th minute mark, marines will have 100% of their upgrades researched, and 2 hive aliens won't be able to compete, and will slowly be beaten.
Now you may say hang on, how is it fair that the marines and aliens have equal power at this point, yet the aliens are expected to take a tech point to avoid defeat? Well, the marines have equal power to the aliens, but are spread over 3/5ths of the map, compared to the alien's 2/5ths. This is why this stage of the game needs to be played extremely passively. The alien's strength does not lie in attacking the marine's directly, it lies in attacking the marines indirectly, and hitting where the marine's are not.
The second time this temporary equilibrium occurs is right after the marines lose the third tech point, between the 14-17 minute mark. During this time, the aliens become fully defensive (either through formal defence at a position (typically the building hive), or through hit and run attacks which are intended to divert marine attention, but not actually do lasting damage). In this situation, the marine's must push the aliens out of the third tech point before they research too much tech, or have the opportunity to use it. Another big factor, potentially even bigger than the upgrades, is that the aliens now control 60% of the map, and 60% of the resources. The primary reason why this marine assault is not a cake walk, even with the 100% tech they should have now achieved, is because a large amount of resources are typically lost in the defense of the third tech point.
In almost all circumstances, save some relating mainly to map imbalances, 100% tech aliens are vastly more powerful than 100% tech marines. The exceptions occur in rooms which are simply too difficult to assault, such as Operations, Datacore, and Warehouse. This is a problem because marines can critical mass through team resources, whereas aliens cannot.
The reason I explain this is because, in my humble opinion, the dynamic illustrated above is far from a "fundamental flaw". It creates tension, it provides opportunity, and its constant action, with no permanent equilibrium. I don't think it would work any other way.
Careful, I was labeled a troll when I suggested this some weeks ago.
The reason this strategy works is because it avoids the potential and likely resource loss involved in losing a third tech point, and instead fast tracks the 100% tech process. However, it isn't easy to pull off, and puts almost no pressure on the alien team, making for a perfect alien game. It certainly does not work "everytime".
Worse than that, it looks like you dodged it but got farked anyway due to lag compensation. Dat feel when you see the shot that kills you miss.
Also, stomp and Umbra are vital? What game are you playing @_@. That's like saying Exos are vital to victory.
Just so that we're on the same page, when did you start playing NS2? Was it before Gorgeous or afterwards? Skulk nerf aside (which also has a bug that gives ground accelleration decrease and should be hotfixed soon odds are) marines were actually worse off pre-patch in every situation you mentioned. That "ball up and hit a hive" idea worked until the marines realized they lost their main base (with IPs, advanced armory, all their upgrades) because the power was focused down. It is a lot harder for marines to recover from a main base death than it is for aliens to lose 1/3 hives. Most of alien's most important abilities are tied to 2nd hive. Xeno, Stomp, Umbra, those are ALL luxuries. You can win without them and are expected to win without them (as in win a game, not bust down a turtle). As a bad example, they're like turrets. Your comm can build a farm in every base when things are going good, but don't expect that till very late game.
Your comments regarding upgrades:
Camo: Agreed.
Silence: VERY VERY good on skulks. Good marines are often 3/4 ears 1/4 eyesight. You can easily follow and ambush marines that are expecting to hear you coming. Unfortunately, it's normally better on higher skilled players that have good situation awareness.
Adren: Good once Leap is researched for skulks in 2nd hive. You're right that it's bad for early game which is why comms normally get Celerity.
Carapace and Regen: what you said.
I'd say perhaps play a few more games and see how aliens win with good teamwork. It's harder now with the skulk acceleration bug(so the win rate isn't 50:50 but rather "maybe" 60:50) but with good teamwork you can still win.
Look for a server with good communication (if you can hear chatter and orders when you join the team, it's normally a good sign), you'll find you win more.
That won't be too huge of an issue sooner or later. Probably later, but I can hope for sooner. My favorites have always been leaping away, seeing the person shoot the ground where you were, then you die in midair.
Those situations are moot if you just go 2tech, 4 node turtle till tech'ed. Especially if its a 4 tech map. If you simply turtle and prevent the aliens from getting 3 hives. You will eventually win the game, everytime. It doesn't happen everytime because of issues with flux in player skill. Even Onos don't stand up very long against multiple marines with shotguns and w3. If its a 5 point map, you simply take 2 points and prevent the 3rd hive until you eventually win.
2 hive vs 2 tech early, like you said, 10 minutes or so. Is barely back and forth and interesting. Often this is the point the game ends however. With one side making a successful push the other cannot recover from. However, if its a hive that dies, thats GG, there is no coming back from that. If one chair dies, the marines are still VERY much in the game, they have lost almost nothing as a result. Thats a bit of a problem IMO.
I disagree that 100% marine is not as powerful as 100% upgraded alien. A stock 100% upgraded marine has almost 200% more combat effectiveness than at game start. A 100% upgraded skulk has 20 more armor and 2 other upgrades that don't do anything to make him more effective in combat. Most of the alien team will be skulks most of the time. If you can kill the fades and oni when they show, which isn't hard with W3 shotguns and/or exo's you're home free until you make that push.
Honestly, take a group of your friends or something and play 9v9. Play a 4 tech map. Setup a 2 tech, 4 res turtle with just minor res and cyst harassment and try to tell me marines don't win this situation everytime. Aliens simply have nothing they can do. If they attempt to attack you, you kill them. So they have to save their res for fade/lerk/onos, but your tech will be ready for that...and murder them. They'll be out of res and you just walk on down to hive(s) and win the game.
Stomp is fairly vital to knock down the welders and give you a chance to kill exo's. The umbra covers the onos running in to use stomp. I rarely see aliens win games on 2 hives unless the marines are bad. If the aliens have 2 hives and the marines have 2 tech points. Its just a matter of time, as I've been saying, until the aliens lose.
I used to play a LOT of NS1, 10 some years ago now. I liked it, thats why I'm here now.
I started with NS2 just before this last update. So I'm less keen to the adjustment to the skulk, but I've found my ability to kill them as a marine has more than doubled since the patch. Before I was struggling to hit them. Now I can take on multiple 1v1 encounters in a row and barely take a hit sometimes...I didn't suddenly remember how to shoot overnight. I'm old and slow now. The game changed.
No, losing a chair is not anywhere close to losing a hive. How long does it take to build a new hive? How long does it take to replace EVERY lost structure and therefore marine upgrade? Hint: Marines can get the power back, the chair up, and every lost building back in under 2 minutes. The hive is at like 30% by then, IF it was dropped at the exact same time, which won't happen. Also, beacon. Aliens have no beacon. Marines can beacon home if it looks like they'll lose to a sneak attack.
Remember I said marines have 2 chairs, well they will have new IPs as well. Unless the aliens hit and kill BOTH in the time it takes your team to sneak attack the alien hive in exo suits...your situation is incorrect. This isn't even taking into account that if that hive the marines killed was the CRAG hive, you're in a whole new sorta mess.
Power nodes aren't weak, they take a long time to take down. Compare that to 1 or 2 marines running around behind your lines killing random cysts, completely preventing you from expanding at all. I don't get the piss and moan about power nodes at all. The ONLY time I see marines loss is when power nodes go down in bases. They those nodes didn't exist, marines would almost certainly never lose a round.
Also, no, marines don't NEED 3 points to win. But it certainly does accelerate the process. Even if Aliens manage to get 3 living hives, the marines still have a very easy path to victory on just 2 chairs.
1st paragraph: I guess we just have different Anecdotal evidence then. More often than not, if it's 2 hives vs 2 CCs it's even in the games I play (assuming it's not Marines have locked down but not built a base in the 3rd point). If aliens go 3 hives (as in the 3rd hive gets up) it's game except for rare circumstances for me.
2nd Para: Yeah, SkulkvsMarine is in a slanted state. Hopefully they'll hotfix the bug soon.
3rd and 4th para: Well, you have to remember all situations are circumstancial. However, if it becomes 2 hives to 1 CC, marines lose. The loss of the marine's base is considerably more painful than losing a hive in every game I've played. If the power goes down, the base goes down if the marine team doesn't have a substantial force there. AA, 2 IPs, CC, Upgrades, Proto(maybe, it's rarer nowadays), all down. As it stands, the alien strategies pre-patch are still in effect and still work (if you're on equivalent skill levels) Exos still die when the comm beacons to save the base, Marines still lose when one of their base's power is knocked out and they weren't beaconed back, etc. Late game NS2 is still the same. It's the early game Skulk-Marine dynamic which has been knocked around that's causing so many problems.
As for the power node... Flamewars and battles have been fought about it. The fact they had to nerf Bile specifically because the Powernode (8 seconds with 2 gorges pre-patch) was dying faster than a zergling in attacks should tell you something. Maybe things have changed, but it's still known as the I-WIN button for a reason, and that's not because it's a fortress of constitution and armor.
Let me put it this way, why weren't you talking about this before the patch when powernodes were gorge/onos candy and marines had to have military communication, accuracy, dodging, and map awareness to win and the competitive win ratio was 65 aliens/35 marines?. (accuracy and dodging is the one thing we need less now due to skulk hitreg fix/accell bug)
Well, if the marines are fully teched, they can still win 1 CC vs 2 hives, assuming they have at least 3 nodes intact. 6 players with w3 shotguns can work magic sometimes, 2+1 comm left to defend. The only time the marines are completely out of the game is when they are completely surrounded.
I wasn't talking then because I hadn't been playing NS2 long enough to get a feel for how matches played out yet, I was spending the majority of my playtime learning the maps and getting my sense of direction so I didn't have to always look at the map, this took a few days to get all the maps in my brain RAM
Now however, marines win basically every game that goes "the distance" (2 living hives and beyond). A lot of that is the marine/skulk play for sure. Some of the rest of it is directly related to other nerfs and buffs.
BTW - Marines have won 55% of all games this weekend on NS2stats supported servers. For everyone pointing to NS2stats when I first jumped on here 2 days ago to mention that marines were winning all the time as evidence against that idea...I'm right and you're wrong. Suck it
The marines "winning all the time" is anecdotal evidence. I've personally experienced a ~50/50 win ratio. Personally, I find the late game mechanics are the exact same as they've always been (except ninja power-node rushing has been fixed so the alert properly sound now and the commander has been given more seconds to beacon).
I think, if you observe games by their early game they're a better indication of how your pub games will go. Since early game right now basically goes to the marines, of course alien wins will suffer. However, that's a result of the aliens worse economy (from bad early game) meaning less high res life forms and slower high-res life forms coming out. That would be why you might be seeing a weaker late game Aliens presence and losing at 2.5/3 hives. Of course, it's conjecture without numbers but I think we can all agree Alien's early game has been hit hard which have repercussions on late game.
that's great, but you didn't say that before... we could all have fun fabricating our own anecdotes to support our argument.
btw i never feel 'one-shotted' as a lerk, because if i have <80% hp i just don't mess around with shotgun/railgun. on the other hand you seem to be one of those guys who takes a big hit and stays in, because if you die it will provide you with more ammunition and determination to whine about non-balance issues which are actually non-skill issues..
55% is 'all the time' ? errrrrrr yeah dude.... you're right.... must be one of those mathematical savants.
i don't know about others, but i'd like to see some of your gameplay. you've told a lot of stories which don't accurately portray any pub match i've played nor comp game i've watched.
therefore i want to see what you experience. record some demo's.
Yes, there are factors that make this much more difficult in NS2 such as community size(talent ratio) and reliance on a team. But this is what strategy is. Not to say that we shouldn't discuss making changes, but too accommodating can be detrimental.