But I don't love it nearly as much as I loved NS1.
First, I was the permagorge of my team. That was fun. Now, Permagorge means either you're going to save for onos, or you're the Khammander. It's less fun, imo.
Two, I was in a team of bloody lamers. We would reloc in the most amazing places, and basicly laught our arses off while loosing the game. We can't do that now. I miss that.
Three, the pace is way faster in NS2. And it doesn't forgive if you make a mistake in the earlygame. I don't like that.
Four, now, I'm older, I work, have a GF, and can't spend every evening smoking weird stuff (which actually helped finding new places to reloc), so it's probably less fun. I can't really say if the last part is the main reason why I have less fun now that then. Probably.
I joined the community a long time ago too.
NS1 was fun.
NS2 is fun.
That's your subjective opinion. Remember?
I think part of that is probably your age as well.
I know that things aren't as "fun" as they used to be when I was a teenager.
Responsibility does that.
That's certainly possible, although I tried to approach NS2 with as little bias as possible.
It was graphically limited, which is why it looked the way it does.
Compared to the original Half-Life, Half-Life 2 looks cartoony.
I agree. In part, the HL engine just looked more dirty because of what it was (an old Quake engine that couldn't use high-res textures or high-poly models). This meant very few rounded edges. Plus, there was something about the Radiosity maps (lighting) in the HL engine that made things seem extra-spooky. Seriously. I loved working with Radiosity in the HL engine. It was a pure joy (but took eight million years in Batch).
As for brightness:
Play with the settings maxed out, and turn down the gamma on your monitor.
This is a ridiculous suggestion. Of course I can make any map darker by adjusting my monitor. That is not the point at all. The environments in NS2 are simply more well-lit, probably because of the new power node system, whereby Aliens can dynamically darken an area. But seriously, you could have just said, "chomp the power node as a skulk dude." Yeah, that makes it darker, but it doesn't change the base lighting of the level itself. I could play the game with my wife's black stockings over my head and it would make the game darker... but why?
That depended on the map, and the game size.
Sure, but first encounters typically came later in NS1 compared to NS2. I don't have a pie chart or a cute little graph to back it up, but it's true.
I wish the maps in NS2 were bigger as well, but they're still pretty good maps.
I don't hate any of them.
I don't really have any maps that make me say "Awesome it's map X!"
My thoughts exactly. I want bigger maps. I don't hate the current maps, but I don't love them either.
You can still ninja around in NS2.
You just have to be more careful, and there's a higher chance that you're going to get caught.
[car reference] Sure, and you can drag race a Corolla but why not use a Mustang? [/car] You can hardly ninja around as a skulk in NS2, because the level designers have made vents way more accessible to marines than in NS1. In NS1 it was like, "Oh s^&*! There's a skulk in that vent!!!" Now it's like, "Dude, will someone get in that vent with their shotty already... seriously. I'm baking a cake over here man..."
Docking is basically an airport, think about how airports/train stations look in real life.
Sure. I get it. I even think it adds a cool variety to NS2. I'm not trying to rag on Docking or Descent. They are beautiful; they just aren't the kind of maps I would prefer.
All the official maps in NS1 were set in gritty enviroments.
Bast is still my favourite NS1 map.
I still remember the first time the Klaxxons went off.
NS2 is a faster paced game than NS1, but it's not like Combat mode.
One of the major and defining features of Combat mode in NS1 was a shorter game. So, how can you say that NS2 is nothing like Combat mode in NS1? It most certainly is my friend.
You're complaining that your new favourite game isn't as fun as your old favourite game, because you were expecting too much of it, and it didn't live up to your expectations.
I came into NS2 with the mindset of "Sweet, NS1 was awesome.", I didn't care what they'd changed as long as it was still an RTS/FPS hybrid with Marines vs Aliens.
I tried to make it very clear in my original post (which you quoted) that I am not upset or angry. I am also not complaining. I am simply sharing my thoughts with the community. I came into NS2 with the same mindset as you.
Blank slate.
However, time has gone by and I am now reflecting upon why I do not have as much fun in NS2 as I did in NS1. You can call it nostalgia, nostalgia-bias, being a teenager, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me what you call it. We both agree fun is subjective, and I (subjectively) have less fun in NS2 than I remember having in NS1.
Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just sharing my experience with NS2.
As I stated already, the only thing that doesn't really wow me are the maps.
They're all decent, and I can't think of a map I hate.
That just sounds so apathetic to me. I want to share my honest feelings about the maps with the community, and know that I put my desires and wishes out there. Now, whether or not anything changes, I am satisfied. I have said my piece. I have shared my heart.
I would like to see a larger, darker, and dirtier map for the next official release.
I may not get it, and that's OK. I'm just one dude. But at least I put it out there.
Just as with the new map Decent, it hurts my eyes especially the club section. While I understand there’s a lot of work that goes into these maps, why do they have to look so pretty?
It's Descent, not decent
Regardless. While we enjoy the gritty feel from the first set of maps released, we saw alot of potential for some cleaner assets, to give ns2 its own flavor. We really did not want to regurgitate the same mapset again, and with Descent came opportunities for themes that would never fly in a gritty environment. The chosen theme for Descent was a civilian space station that also had space-age industrial themes with it, as if its a colony in space that you might live on, or vacation on. With this comes the clean parts of Descent. There was possibility to leave some of the gritty stuff in the industrial sections, but it never seemed to mesh well with the rest of the themes. As artists we are always striving for creation, and making new and different things. There just came a time where ideas were running dry to keep new maps with that old texture set fresh. NS2 needed something different.
Jona, I really want to make it clear: I respect the creativity and hard work that went into Descent amd Docking, but they aren't my cup of tea. That's just a preference of course. I would have been very excited to see the same gritty, dirty texture set applied throughout NS2. But, I understand, others may not have felt the same way.
I love descent. I like all of the ns2 maps. Aesthetically speaking, they are much better to look at than NS1 maps. The reason they don't have the same impact is (IMO) twofold: the presence of 'meaningless' corridors in NS1 meant that it broke up the bigger, architecturally significant areas in the map. There was a larger contrast between the corridors and hive rooms, because there was a longer running time between them, so you actually got a sense of distinctness not just from how the room looked but also the physical distance between them. 2nd is because of alien vision. I barely ever played with alien vision on in ns1, and i think that helped me be more immersed in the maps.
I would like to see a larger, darker, and dirtier map for the next official release.
Me too. I'd also like to see a new map that's got a completely different look than any of the existing maps. And I'd like to see new maps, new maps, new maps, and more new maps.
Alas, since there's only so much UWE mapper to go around, looks like I'm getting my wish for a different-look (Biodome) and you're not getting yours.
Still, though... I didn't play NS1 so I don't know what I'm missing, but I'm surprised that you don't find Mineshaft to be large enough, dark enough, or dirty enough. Have you played on Jambi? It's larger by far than any of the official maps, and it seems plenty dark and dirty to me.
I'm not disputing that.
I'm just stating that, what you consider fun, and what I consider fun are different things.
I consider paintball to be fun, but you might consider it painful.
I joined the community a long time ago too.
NS1 was fun.
NS2 is fun.
That's your subjective opinion. Remember?
That was the intention of that remark.
I think part of that is probably your age as well.
I know that things aren't as "fun" as they used to be when I was a teenager.
Responsibility does that.
That's certainly possible, although I tried to approach NS2 with as little bias as possible.
I think a large part of it for me was that I hadn't even played NS1 since combat was released(I hated it, yet everyone and their dog seemed to love it, so every server was combat mode all the time), when I got into WoW.
I played that game religiously for about 4 years, and by that time NS1 was effectively dead.
It was graphically limited, which is why it looked the way it does.
Compared to the original Half-Life, Half-Life 2 looks cartoony.
I agree. In part, the HL engine just looked more dirty because of what it was (an old Quake engine that couldn't use high-res textures or high-poly models). This meant very few rounded edges. Plus, there was something about the Radiosity maps (lighting) in the HL engine that made things seem extra-spooky. Seriously. I loved working with Radiosity in the HL engine. It was a pure joy (but took eight million years in Batch).
I never played around with mapping in HL.
I made a few (crappy) Q3, Duke3D, and Doom/Doom II maps back in the day though.
As for brightness:
Play with the settings maxed out, and turn down the gamma on your monitor.
This is a ridiculous suggestion. Of course I can make any map darker by adjusting my monitor. That is not the point at all. The environments in NS2 are simply more well-lit, probably because of the new power node system, whereby Aliens can dynamically darken an area. But seriously, you could have just said, "chomp the power node as a skulk dude." Yeah, that makes it darker, but it doesn't change the base lighting of the level itself. I could play the game with my wife's black stockings over my head and it would make the game darker... but why?
I find with all the shadows on, the game is darker, except for Docking(To use your earlier example).
That might just be me though
That depended on the map, and the game size.
Sure, but first encounters typically came later in NS1 compared to NS2. I don't have a pie chart or a cute little graph to back it up, but it's true.
I wish the maps in NS2 were bigger as well, but they're still pretty good maps.
I don't hate any of them.
I don't really have any maps that make me say "Awesome it's map X!"
My thoughts exactly. I want bigger maps. I don't hate the current maps, but I don't love them either.
You can still ninja around in NS2.
You just have to be more careful, and there's a higher chance that you're going to get caught.
[car reference] Sure, and you can drag race a Corolla but why not use a Mustang? [/car] You can hardly ninja around as a skulk in NS2, because the level designers have made vents way more accessible to marines than in NS1. In NS1 it was like, "Oh s^&*! There's a skulk in that vent!!!" Now it's like, "Dude, will someone get in that vent with their shotty already... seriously. I'm baking a cake over here man..."
There are still vents that marines can't get into, at least by themselves.
I've got no issues with boosting into vents.
Docking is basically an airport, think about how airports/train stations look in real life.
Sure. I get it. I even think it adds a cool variety to NS2. I'm not trying to rag on Docking or Descent. They are beautiful; they just aren't the kind of maps I would prefer.
All the official maps in NS1 were set in gritty enviroments.
Bast is still my favourite NS1 map.
I still remember the first time the Klaxxons went off.
NS2 is a faster paced game than NS1, but it's not like Combat mode.
One of the major and defining features of Combat mode in NS1 was a shorter game. So, how can you say that NS2 is nothing like Combat mode in NS1? It most certainly is my friend.
You're complaining that your new favourite game isn't as fun as your old favourite game, because you were expecting too much of it, and it didn't live up to your expectations.
I came into NS2 with the mindset of "Sweet, NS1 was awesome.", I didn't care what they'd changed as long as it was still an RTS/FPS hybrid with Marines vs Aliens.
I tried to make it very clear in my original post (which you quoted) that I am not upset or angry. I am also not complaining. I am simply sharing my thoughts with the community. I came into NS2 with the same mindset as you.
Blank slate.
However, time has gone by and I am now reflecting upon why I do not have as much fun in NS2 as I did in NS1. You can call it nostalgia, nostalgia-bias, being a teenager, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me what you call it. We both agree fun is subjective, and I (subjectively) have less fun in NS2 than I remember having in NS1.
Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just sharing my experience with NS2.
As I stated already, the only thing that doesn't really wow me are the maps.
They're all decent, and I can't think of a map I hate.
That just sounds so apathetic to me. I want to share my honest feelings about the maps with the community, and know that I put my desires and wishes out there. Now, whether or not anything changes, I am satisfied. I have said my piece. I have shared my heart.
I would like to see a larger, darker, and dirtier map for the next official release.
I'd like to see "dirtier" maps too, but you have to admit that Mineshaft and Refinery are both pretty gritty, at least compared to the rest of the maps.
Again, I think a lot of the "dirt" in the original maps were due to engine limitations.
Look at how bright Quake was compared to Quake II, or Q3A.
What you miss is the Goldscr Engine and the good ol' Quake1 lowres-textures and movement.
It's really hard to make old school gamers comfortable with modern engines and modern gameplay design. Think about CS. Call of Duty (the first one was great). TeamFortress. Unreal (Tournament). Battlefield. Quake. Thief. And whatever you liked to play back then. Maybe it has to do with your imagination - the engines didn't allow for more detail. A book is always better than a movie. The whole atmosphere of those games are not possible in modern engines when you don't want a game to feel like it's ten years old. You could do that, but that'd be more like avantgarde art.
From all the games listed, NS is the only one that knows its roots and tries to combine those with modern game design. Not every idea is perfect, but it still is my favorite game right now. Cory's artwork is awesome, the engine is beautiful. I still don't see any game that realizes the RTS/FPS concept even close to NS. And when I played descent, I actually felt like I was playing NS1 again. Maybe it wasn't the atmosphere of the map, but the detail that was in it and the shape of the corridors...I don't know.
NS1 had its weaknesses, too. We had maaaaaany boring rounds, don't ignore that. We just always knew there could be an awesome round this evening. It's not that bad in NS2.
The only thing I really miss right now is the Focus upgrade.
EDIT: And what we also know from NS1: It will be a work in progress forever I guess that's what you buy together with NS.
I think a lot of our memories of NS1, and experiences with NS2, have to do with our expectations.
Here's a story about how I found NS1:
On my dial up internet at the age of like 12, looking for another cool mod (I just found out that counter-strike used to be a "mod" and thought I'd find another one to play). Read about a mod that lets me play as an alien, think that playing as a vortigaunt would be pretty cool. Download, play free game.
Best
Game
Ever
Here's a story about how I found NS2:
Hear about the possibility of a sequel to the best game ever made. Wait something like 4 years for it. Wait day and night, always thinking about new NS. Buy alpha version I can't play because bad laptop. Screw it, jump around ready room at 5 FPS getting really excited. Play 600 hours before official release day.
Very
Good
Game
Hype ruins everything. NS2 could have been the complete package with respects to replicating the feel of NS1, and many of us still would have been "disappointed". Simply because nothing lives up to the hype, ever.
Dark i Agree with a lot of what you have said. I think Marine Sprint has altered the game more than people think when it comes to timing and conflict. Also NS1 felt more like trying to control the "no man's land" then taking out the enemies home, NS2 just feels like res denial. RTs just werent that big of a deal in NS1 for either side. No idea what changed.
Bottom line for me: I DETEST Cysts and Power Nodes.
Edit *Didnt notice the 2 other pages, sorry if my comments were brought up. New Forum > Rising*
I dont think NS2 is less fun, but I *deeply* miss and agree with everything you mentioned in the OP. Where is the grit? Why does my gun sound like a pencil tapping on paper? Where is the tight control and punchy feel? Can anything be done for the spark engine to bring back the wonderful feel of NS1 on goldsource?
*sigh* bast.... will we ever see each other again?
I know many will tell me NOT to compare NS2 to NS1 but I can't do that. NS1 is why I joined the community 9 years ago. NS1 is why I bought NS2. I knew NS2 wouldn't be the same, but I hoped it would be just as fun in its own right.
OK, enough prefacing. Here are the things I miss the most:
1. Dropping comm chairs wherever you wanted.
2. The gritty look and feel of the NS1 maps. Dark and ambient, not bright and cartoonish.
3. Not running into the other team for several minutes into the game.
4. The larger maps.
5. Being able to ninja around the game.
My biggest disappointment is the style of the latest official maps. Don't get me wrong, docking and descent are beautiful! But they feel cartoonish. In fact, I think everything is more round and bubbly in NS2 and I don't like that personally. I miss the atmosphere of Hera, Bast, Nancy, Caged, and Nothing. There is no map that compares to any of these in NS2. None of the official maps have compelling soundscapes, at least not compared to NS1.
Another thought: NS2 is sort of a mix of classic NS and Combat NS. That's a real problem, because if I wanted to play combat back in the day I wanted combat and not a classic match (and vice versa). In essence, I had a choice. But in NS2 I don't have an official choice, and this compromise has, in my opinion, destroyed the uniqueness of NS.
I'm not leaving the community.
I'm not complaining out of anger or frustration.
I'm just sharing my thoughts.
There is no expectation that anyone will do anything with them, but I wanted to make them available to the community.
UWE: You have done a good job with NS2. There is no doubt about that. Keep on working; I support you guys. Like I said, the game is good, but it isn't great yet. Hopefully, it will get there in time.
What do you think?
Blessings,
Cody
I would love to have both. These games are amazing and we can learn lot from them
Let's have a small challenge: Name a multiplayer sequel that came out in the last 3 years that managed to keep the character of its old school prequel.
EDIT: No, wait. NS2 has still NS character. But name one that made you feel what you felt when playing the old school version.
Let's have a small challenge: Name a multiplayer sequel that came out in the last 3 years that managed to keep the character of its old school prequel.
EDIT: No, wait. NS2 has still NS character. But name one that made you feel what you felt when playing the old school version.
L4D2
Then again, most people complained that it should have been a cheap DLC rather than a whole new game.
Then again, I thought L4D1 was boring.
Haha, those games are just the same ones as their prequels. C'mon, a little more effort here. And neither L4D1 nor sports games from 2010 are old school.
Haha, those games are just the same ones as their prequels. C'mon, a little more effort here. And neither L4D1 nor sports games from 2010 are old school.
Doom, Doom II
WarCraft, Warcraft II
C&C, C&C: Red Alert
What, you don't like 3hr long games with marines turtling up at one hive location, on one RT, and eventually busting out as fully upgraded HMG HAs/JPs and stomping the aliens who had previously (and brilliantly) held 95% of the map? Come on, doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, especially if you were on the alien team at the time?
It's funny how you try to make something look bad that's imho one of the coolest things about NS1.
Yes Combacks are fun, when they are actually possible. Yes some people like long rounds. And no: Turtling wasn't a 100% guaranteed victory for Marines but it often lead to pretty awesome rounds and personally i miss those "let's save for one last push!" moments that have by now gone extinct from NS2. Instead rounds end by concede after 10-20 minutes, in an very anti-climatic and unmemorable way, always making it feel like those last 10-20 minutes had been wasted time.
Imho the biggest thing NS1 still has over NS2 is it's sandboxy and rather unpredictable nature, while NS2 feels streamlined to such a level that variety in gameplay suffers.
In NS1 you could pull off a bunch of random stuff that wasn't efficient in an "how to win the round" way but it was fun and sometimes it even lead to winning the round (which made it even more fun). Random relocs into odd places, Kharaa turtling off whole parts of the map in the early game or other things, NS1 often felt more like a big sandbox with room and time to play around instead of a small killbox where every misstep gets instantly punished leading to the end of the round.
Because of that rounds stayed fresh and unpredictable. Sadly that's something i do not get at all from NS2.. Rounds in NS2 feels way too predictable up to a point where the game becomes flat-out boring, because you've seen all the possible outcomes already dozens of times and comebacks are a much more difficult and rare thing.
At least there is still hope that somebody is gonna work out an mod that puts back the "NS" in to NS2 and dials a little bit back on the "CoD" similar to what siege maps do to NS1.
Doom, Doom II
WarCraft, Warcraft II
C&C, C&C: Red Alert
Good god, those are all oldschool games, both prequel and sequel, all of them with the same engine. Read the challenge again Seriously, I'd like to know an example of a classic with a modern sequel you'd say really feels like the classic. I mean I can't think of one. Just saying...
Doom, Doom II
WarCraft, Warcraft II
C&C, C&C: Red Alert
Good god, those are all oldschool games, both prequel and sequel, all of them with the same engine. Read the challenge again Seriously, I'd like to know an example of a classic with a modern sequel you'd say really feels like the classic. I mean I can't think of one. Just saying...
The performance is making it hard to enjoy the game. Gameplay additions, maps, features, all of these comes come in second compared to the low performance you get. The game as it stands just barely deserves its score on metacritic - 80. The game is fun and they managed to balance it well, but without new maps, and with this horrible performance even on good PCs, it's just not gonna appeal to me.
Imho the biggest thing NS1 still has over NS2 is it's sandboxy and rather unpredictable nature, while NS2 feels streamlined to such a level that variety in gameplay suffers.
The performance is making it hard to enjoy the game. Gameplay additions, maps, features, all of these comes come in second compared to the low performance you get. The game as it stands just barely deserves its score on metacritic - 80. The game is fun and they managed to balance it well, but without new maps, and with this horrible performance even on good PCs, it's just not gonna appeal to me.
Yes.
In fact, I wonder if UWE can even do anything about performance anymore. A part of me feels like they are just waiting for technology to improve and computing power to double (according to Moore's Law). In time people will upgrade their systems and the engine won't feel so punishing anymore. I hope I'm wrong here, but if they could do something major to improve performance wouldn't they have done it by now?
I agree with pretty much everything on the original post.
Don't get me wrong. NS1, had its fair share of problems, but while I wouldn't call NS2 2 steps back for every step forward, it is definitely a case of a step back for every step forward with some of the more questionable implementations of game mechanics.
I also echo your sentiments on the art style. I don't know if it's just due to nostalgia factors, but I remember NS1 to be much more foreboding and hair-raising than NS2. Don't get me wrong, maps like Docking and Descent are beautifully rendered, but yea a lot of the objects and details feel like they don't really belong in the game and are simply there for you to say, "hey cool it's a fish-tank looking thingamajig."
Comments
But I don't love it nearly as much as I loved NS1.
First, I was the permagorge of my team. That was fun. Now, Permagorge means either you're going to save for onos, or you're the Khammander. It's less fun, imo.
Two, I was in a team of bloody lamers. We would reloc in the most amazing places, and basicly laught our arses off while loosing the game. We can't do that now. I miss that.
Three, the pace is way faster in NS2. And it doesn't forgive if you make a mistake in the earlygame. I don't like that.
Four, now, I'm older, I work, have a GF, and can't spend every evening smoking weird stuff (which actually helped finding new places to reloc), so it's probably less fun. I can't really say if the last part is the main reason why I have less fun now that then. Probably.
Yes, and I subjectively had more fun in NS1.
That's your subjective opinion. Remember?
That's certainly possible, although I tried to approach NS2 with as little bias as possible.
I agree. In part, the HL engine just looked more dirty because of what it was (an old Quake engine that couldn't use high-res textures or high-poly models). This meant very few rounded edges. Plus, there was something about the Radiosity maps (lighting) in the HL engine that made things seem extra-spooky. Seriously. I loved working with Radiosity in the HL engine. It was a pure joy (but took eight million years in Batch).
This is a ridiculous suggestion. Of course I can make any map darker by adjusting my monitor. That is not the point at all. The environments in NS2 are simply more well-lit, probably because of the new power node system, whereby Aliens can dynamically darken an area. But seriously, you could have just said, "chomp the power node as a skulk dude." Yeah, that makes it darker, but it doesn't change the base lighting of the level itself. I could play the game with my wife's black stockings over my head and it would make the game darker... but why?
Sure, but first encounters typically came later in NS1 compared to NS2. I don't have a pie chart or a cute little graph to back it up, but it's true.
My thoughts exactly. I want bigger maps. I don't hate the current maps, but I don't love them either.
[car reference] Sure, and you can drag race a Corolla but why not use a Mustang? [/car] You can hardly ninja around as a skulk in NS2, because the level designers have made vents way more accessible to marines than in NS1. In NS1 it was like, "Oh s^&*! There's a skulk in that vent!!!" Now it's like, "Dude, will someone get in that vent with their shotty already... seriously. I'm baking a cake over here man..."
Sure. I get it. I even think it adds a cool variety to NS2. I'm not trying to rag on Docking or Descent. They are beautiful; they just aren't the kind of maps I would prefer.
One of the major and defining features of Combat mode in NS1 was a shorter game. So, how can you say that NS2 is nothing like Combat mode in NS1? It most certainly is my friend.
I tried to make it very clear in my original post (which you quoted) that I am not upset or angry. I am also not complaining. I am simply sharing my thoughts with the community. I came into NS2 with the same mindset as you.
Blank slate.
However, time has gone by and I am now reflecting upon why I do not have as much fun in NS2 as I did in NS1. You can call it nostalgia, nostalgia-bias, being a teenager, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me what you call it. We both agree fun is subjective, and I (subjectively) have less fun in NS2 than I remember having in NS1.
Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just sharing my experience with NS2.
That just sounds so apathetic to me. I want to share my honest feelings about the maps with the community, and know that I put my desires and wishes out there. Now, whether or not anything changes, I am satisfied. I have said my piece. I have shared my heart.
I would like to see a larger, darker, and dirtier map for the next official release.
I may not get it, and that's OK. I'm just one dude. But at least I put it out there.
Blessings,
Cody
Jona, I really want to make it clear: I respect the creativity and hard work that went into Descent amd Docking, but they aren't my cup of tea. That's just a preference of course. I would have been very excited to see the same gritty, dirty texture set applied throughout NS2. But, I understand, others may not have felt the same way.
Me too. I'd also like to see a new map that's got a completely different look than any of the existing maps. And I'd like to see new maps, new maps, new maps, and more new maps.
Alas, since there's only so much UWE mapper to go around, looks like I'm getting my wish for a different-look (Biodome) and you're not getting yours.
Still, though... I didn't play NS1 so I don't know what I'm missing, but I'm surprised that you don't find Mineshaft to be large enough, dark enough, or dirty enough. Have you played on Jambi? It's larger by far than any of the official maps, and it seems plenty dark and dirty to me.
I'm just stating that, what you consider fun, and what I consider fun are different things.
I consider paintball to be fun, but you might consider it painful.
That was the intention of that remark. I think a large part of it for me was that I hadn't even played NS1 since combat was released(I hated it, yet everyone and their dog seemed to love it, so every server was combat mode all the time), when I got into WoW.
I played that game religiously for about 4 years, and by that time NS1 was effectively dead.
I never played around with mapping in HL.
I made a few (crappy) Q3, Duke3D, and Doom/Doom II maps back in the day though.
I find with all the shadows on, the game is darker, except for Docking(To use your earlier example).
That might just be me though
Sure, but first encounters typically came later in NS1 compared to NS2. I don't have a pie chart or a cute little graph to back it up, but it's true.
My thoughts exactly. I want bigger maps. I don't hate the current maps, but I don't love them either.
There are still vents that marines can't get into, at least by themselves.
I've got no issues with boosting into vents.
Sure. I get it. I even think it adds a cool variety to NS2. I'm not trying to rag on Docking or Descent. They are beautiful; they just aren't the kind of maps I would prefer.
One of the major and defining features of Combat mode in NS1 was a shorter game. So, how can you say that NS2 is nothing like Combat mode in NS1? It most certainly is my friend.
I tried to make it very clear in my original post (which you quoted) that I am not upset or angry. I am also not complaining. I am simply sharing my thoughts with the community. I came into NS2 with the same mindset as you.
Blank slate.
However, time has gone by and I am now reflecting upon why I do not have as much fun in NS2 as I did in NS1. You can call it nostalgia, nostalgia-bias, being a teenager, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me what you call it. We both agree fun is subjective, and I (subjectively) have less fun in NS2 than I remember having in NS1.
Take it for whatever it's worth. I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just sharing my experience with NS2. I'd like to see "dirtier" maps too, but you have to admit that Mineshaft and Refinery are both pretty gritty, at least compared to the rest of the maps.
Again, I think a lot of the "dirt" in the original maps were due to engine limitations.
Look at how bright Quake was compared to Quake II, or Q3A.
It's really hard to make old school gamers comfortable with modern engines and modern gameplay design. Think about CS. Call of Duty (the first one was great). TeamFortress. Unreal (Tournament). Battlefield. Quake. Thief. And whatever you liked to play back then. Maybe it has to do with your imagination - the engines didn't allow for more detail. A book is always better than a movie. The whole atmosphere of those games are not possible in modern engines when you don't want a game to feel like it's ten years old. You could do that, but that'd be more like avantgarde art.
From all the games listed, NS is the only one that knows its roots and tries to combine those with modern game design. Not every idea is perfect, but it still is my favorite game right now. Cory's artwork is awesome, the engine is beautiful. I still don't see any game that realizes the RTS/FPS concept even close to NS. And when I played descent, I actually felt like I was playing NS1 again. Maybe it wasn't the atmosphere of the map, but the detail that was in it and the shape of the corridors...I don't know.
NS1 had its weaknesses, too. We had maaaaaany boring rounds, don't ignore that. We just always knew there could be an awesome round this evening. It's not that bad in NS2.
The only thing I really miss right now is the Focus upgrade.
EDIT: And what we also know from NS1: It will be a work in progress forever
Here's a story about how I found NS1:
On my dial up internet at the age of like 12, looking for another cool mod (I just found out that counter-strike used to be a "mod" and thought I'd find another one to play). Read about a mod that lets me play as an alien, think that playing as a vortigaunt would be pretty cool. Download, play free game.
Best
Game
Ever
Here's a story about how I found NS2:
Hear about the possibility of a sequel to the best game ever made. Wait something like 4 years for it. Wait day and night, always thinking about new NS. Buy alpha version I can't play because bad laptop. Screw it, jump around ready room at 5 FPS getting really excited. Play 600 hours before official release day.
Very
Good
Game
Hype ruins everything. NS2 could have been the complete package with respects to replicating the feel of NS1, and many of us still would have been "disappointed". Simply because nothing lives up to the hype, ever.
Bottom line for me: I DETEST Cysts and Power Nodes.
Edit *Didnt notice the 2 other pages, sorry if my comments were brought up. New Forum > Rising*
*sigh* bast.... will we ever see each other again?
EDIT: No, wait. NS2 has still NS character. But name one that made you feel what you felt when playing the old school version.
owned.
L4D2
Then again, most people complained that it should have been a cheap DLC rather than a whole new game.
Then again, I thought L4D1 was boring.
Doom, Doom II
WarCraft, Warcraft II
C&C, C&C: Red Alert
It's funny how you try to make something look bad that's imho one of the coolest things about NS1.
Yes Combacks are fun, when they are actually possible. Yes some people like long rounds. And no: Turtling wasn't a 100% guaranteed victory for Marines but it often lead to pretty awesome rounds and personally i miss those "let's save for one last push!" moments that have by now gone extinct from NS2. Instead rounds end by concede after 10-20 minutes, in an very anti-climatic and unmemorable way, always making it feel like those last 10-20 minutes had been wasted time.
Imho the biggest thing NS1 still has over NS2 is it's sandboxy and rather unpredictable nature, while NS2 feels streamlined to such a level that variety in gameplay suffers.
In NS1 you could pull off a bunch of random stuff that wasn't efficient in an "how to win the round" way but it was fun and sometimes it even lead to winning the round (which made it even more fun). Random relocs into odd places, Kharaa turtling off whole parts of the map in the early game or other things, NS1 often felt more like a big sandbox with room and time to play around instead of a small killbox where every misstep gets instantly punished leading to the end of the round.
Because of that rounds stayed fresh and unpredictable. Sadly that's something i do not get at all from NS2.. Rounds in NS2 feels way too predictable up to a point where the game becomes flat-out boring, because you've seen all the possible outcomes already dozens of times and comebacks are a much more difficult and rare thing.
At least there is still hope that somebody is gonna work out an mod that puts back the "NS" in to NS2 and dials a little bit back on the "CoD" similar to what siege maps do to NS1.
The performance is making it hard to enjoy the game. Gameplay additions, maps, features, all of these comes come in second compared to the low performance you get. The game as it stands just barely deserves its score on metacritic - 80. The game is fun and they managed to balance it well, but without new maps, and with this horrible performance even on good PCs, it's just not gonna appeal to me.
^ This.
Yes.
In fact, I wonder if UWE can even do anything about performance anymore. A part of me feels like they are just waiting for technology to improve and computing power to double (according to Moore's Law). In time people will upgrade their systems and the engine won't feel so punishing anymore. I hope I'm wrong here, but if they could do something major to improve performance wouldn't they have done it by now?
Blessings,
Cody
Don't get me wrong. NS1, had its fair share of problems, but while I wouldn't call NS2 2 steps back for every step forward, it is definitely a case of a step back for every step forward with some of the more questionable implementations of game mechanics.
I also echo your sentiments on the art style. I don't know if it's just due to nostalgia factors, but I remember NS1 to be much more foreboding and hair-raising than NS2. Don't get me wrong, maps like Docking and Descent are beautifully rendered, but yea a lot of the objects and details feel like they don't really belong in the game and are simply there for you to say, "hey cool it's a fish-tank looking thingamajig."