You implied that they should always win since they put more res into the game. A much better argument is that Shotguns are designed to be a counter to the melee lifeforms Aliens use. The problem with this is that even though it is fair on the balance aspect, Scaredybob says what is the issue.
Yes, they SHOULD but that doesn't mean they will, I've seen many a marine lose to a solo skulk either due to an ambush or fail aim. That is my opinion.
Well, seeing as the shotgun does take you 20 res to acquire, not to mention the research costs, it's only normal that it's a somewhat significant improvement over the standard LMG. You have to consider that, in contrast to the LMG, with shotties you can no longer use distance to your advantage, as you only do max damage when aliens are just 1-2 meters away. So it makes sense that a researchable 20 res low-ROF high-spread weapon designed for close range combat actually enables you to reliably kill expendable 0 res skulks at close range, more so than a LMG would, assuming your aim doesn't let you down. If that wouldn't be the case, there would be no point in getting a shotgun in the first place.
Anyway, a skulk will always be at a disadvantage against a shotgun, as it should be. This should not be the argument to change shotgun damage outputs imo.
I can however understand the points ScardyBob brings up, especially the first two, being...
- One or two shot kills reduces the player-player engagement
- You generally don't get much feedback your taking damage until your actually dead
To which I think maybe a possible solution would be to slightly reduce damage/shot, but increase ROF accordingly so that the overall DPS stays roughly thesame. In any case, I'd like to see gls and flamethrowers made a bit more useful and/or cheaper, so that there's more than one viable weapon upgrade to choose from.
Okay, I'll try to adress this without jumping on the "wepn imbah" train here.
The Shotgun is a disputed weapon, this is true, but it is far from impossible to overcome. Let's move away from the pub vs. pro discussion or full damage hits and hitoint/resource counting and go to where you are probably situated, a pub game with low to mid-skilled players.
Coming from someone who has played on both marine and alien side I hope I might be able to give some insight on how to deal with shotguns.
For this, let us take a look at the situation as a Marine player. I have stated this before, but since some people here are new: I am mediocre at best. This goes for both my aim and my movement skills (sometimes battlefield awareness, but that is another deal ).
-Especially when pesky Skulks get in close and start jumping from one wall to another, twisting their body in weird shapes, I tend to miss the right timing to make a full damage hit with the shotgun. I actually prefer the rifle because of that, I miss less bullets with that weapon than with the shotgun.
-And when I jump out of the way of a Skulk bite I tend to be as disoriented as the Skulk player, sometimes turning too far and missing the first shot. This can be used against me.
-Even if I have a good day with the shotgun and get those Skulks down there still is a problem for me: Those pesky Lerks keeping at a distance hitting me with their spikes. The only way to retaliate is to pull out my pistol and try to gun them down, but the second the get hit they twist around in midair like crazy, making them very hard to track and hit.
-And then there are those smart aliens that team up on me. One distracts me by showing himself to me while the other sneaks up from behind. Really hard to decide which one to hit first. Not that it makes a difference once both pounce on me at the same time.
And now, let us take a look at the Alien side:
-As a Skulk, it is important to learn that the walls and the ceiling are your floors. It is also advisable to keep moving (unless you know a Marine is closeby and are unsure whether you should attack or hide). In the mid- to lategame skulks are great for sneaking behind enemy lines and killing extractors or other unguarded buildings, or distracting the enemy for your teammates (a skulk in the foreground can make an exo spin like crazy while the gorges behind bile him to death). Celerity and Silence are great for the Skulk.
-If you have the resources left, go for a Lerk, preferrably with Celerity. Move about quickly, grab onto ceilings and dark spots to hide and gun down unsuspecting Marines. Or fly past them while spreading gas (get some practice first before trying this, some Marines have twitchy fingers ). I can usually keep my Lerk for a long time and fly all around the map like crazy just harrassing enemies, and getting a kill here or there.
-Both Skulk and Lerk twist their body around a lot when turning around, you (as the Skulk/Lerk player) cannot see it but your opponent will notice. The better shots in the Marine team can still gun your down if you get too close but you make it a whole lot harder for them if you learn how to jump and twist around in midair a lot without losing too much momentum.
-Marines profit from teaming up, but Aliens do just as much. Two Skulks moving as a team can take down unaware lone marines in a matter of seconds, kill resource towers before the enemy can react and, most importantly, split enemy awareness. An opponent who has to choose between two targets will likely go for the wrong one first. Even bigger groups of marines moving in tight formations are easier to take out if you combine good teamplay (use voice chat to coordinate with your buddy) with suprise attacks. They will likely stand in each other's line of sight, making your job so much easier. If noone asks you to tag along take the initative, stick with someone you deem reliable, make yourself useful, before long he will start working with you, too.
This is behaviour I encounter on a regular basis, more or less frequently depending on the general skill found on the servers I play on. There is the risk that the Marine team is stacked or that people on the server you play are just generally better shots than what I described above, but n general I found that trying to do what I just described helped me getting down quite a few shotgun players (side note: I die to shotguns a lot more when being a gorge than I do when being a Skulk or Lerk ).
I think a lot of the fuss over shot gun being op is, for the most part, brought on due to alien players not being able to effectively dodge their shot-gun wielding opponents.
Skulks that leap and bounce off walls certainly are more difficult to kill than ones that run on the floor.
Fades that can shadow-step/blink effectively are damn near impossible to hit, even with a shot gun.
I practiced for an hour or so just last night over and over again trying to kill a fade trying to kill me with 1 weap 2 armor upgrade using a shotgun and I was still getting cut down at least 85% of the time. (That might be because I suck at aiming) but I believe dodging and moving in unpredictable ways is core to alien play.
A marine with 3/3 upgrades usually indicates aliens have been behind all game. Should a skulk really be able to compete with a 3/3 marine that far into the end game?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I think its a frustration with design thing..
Alien must close distance to attack.. alien dies instantly once this is achieved.. thus feels wronged/robbed.
At face value a player may not understand intuitively why, since they think they did the right thing.. but shotguns just introduce another wrench into that supposedly so simple of an equation to those that do not know how to approach the situation. (LERKS! :-P)
It would be nice if there was a greater delay between shots, because now even if I managed to dodge a shot, I don't really have quality time to bite the marine before he can shoot me again.
As much as I find it exhilarating cleverly charging and leaping at a shotgunner to dodge their first shot, against any competent shotgunner, I just won't be able to land more than 1 bite before they can kill me.
Not unless I attempt to dodge out their entire clip, which has an even lower chance of success (not to mention that the marine can now go pistol).
That said, I've usually found 2 competent skulks can often work to defeat 1 competent shotgunner.
And I personally suck at shotgun so increasing the delay between shots would just stop me from using it even more.
Most marines are pretty terrible with a shotgun, like sinkingmist just admitted himself. If you claim its so easy to one shot skulk after skulk and that it should be nerfed...why aren't servers filled with comms researching sgs first and everyone buying one immediately?
If anything, the opposite happens on pubs. Marines play passive securing only one techpoint, only a few people get sgs and try to pressure, and 70% of the server is saving for that eventual dual exo they think they need. By then, aliens have 3 hives, the fades have been crushing your sg-less marines, and the game is pretty much over.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment. Against any semi-competent alien team, a SGer still needs to stick with his team or he will easily be ambushed down and that p-res wasted.
Of course all that being said, my words were probably just wasted on you since at this point all you are capable of thinking is "omg my groundskulk methods aren't working again" and "its not me, its the gun".
Yes, they SHOULD but that doesn't mean they will, I've seen many a marine lose to a solo skulk either due to an ambush or fail aim. That is my opinion.
Sooo.... because the lerk is 30 res and the SG is 20, the lerk SHOULD win? Ya, you can't say that just because something costs more res that it should win.
Also, like Ironhorse said, it's a problem of design. Not only for the reason he stated, but because it (and weapon/armor upgrades to some extent) make skulks completely obsolete as combat lifeforms mid-late game. Comparing it to the equivalent 0 res unit on the marines, LMG marines can continue to be useful in combat due to wep/armor upgrades. IMHO, this should not be the case, no lifeform/weapon should ever be obsolete in combat, especially not the one that the majority of people are for the majority of the game.
There's a difference in that completely, also if you're basically saying the lerk HAS to go in for bites against shot gunners or my opinion is flawed.
Also the difference is that marines use tres not pres to win games, by getting upgrades, aliens use pres and not tres. You can't just say, marines played correctly by using tres to get upgrades, but aliens didn't use their pres to get life forms therefore the base marine is op.
Protip: if a shotgun gives an advantage over a skulk, then for balance purposes you assume that the shotgun always wins.
It is of absolutely no benefit to anyone for you to take into account the situation when Archea as aliens takes on nsplayer(1) with his shotgun and he somehow doesn't kill them.
The shotgun should always win in 1v1 situations, against 2 MAYBE, 3 or more skulks and it's unacceptable for the marine to win and the aliens just suck.
The shotgun should always win in 1v1 situations, against 2 MAYBE, 3 or more skulks and it's unacceptable for the marine to win and the aliens just suck.
How many skulks will two shotguns beat though?
And what about factoring skill differential in? For example, say one marine player is twice as good as any alien player, and that marine player has a shotgun. How many alien players will he be able to kill at one time? Are we not maybe giving too much power to a single individual? I mean sure, we can hope that everyone is equally skilled, but in the (frequent) case that they are not, should we not at least try to have feedback loops somewhere, rather than steamroll loops like the shotgun?
I don't think the problem is so much the PvP aspect. After all, I go down to a good lerk almost as fast as to a good shotty player. And to engage two shotty marines as a fade without knowing one is distracted is just crazy. As a skulk you have a chance of taking out a mediocre shotty player, while I as a single lmg marine could hardly take out a mediocre lerk all by myself. I think it's all reasonably well balanced.
The problem I have with the shotgun is that it obliterates the choice to research/buy any other weapon. It just does too much damage to structures! If its anti-structure damage was nerfed (maybe set its damage type to "puncture"?), the ft/gl might become a more viable support weapon.
I don't think the problem is so much the PvP aspect. After all, I go down to a good lerk almost as fast as to a good shotty player. And to engage two shotty marines as a fade without knowing one is distracted is just crazy. As a skulk you have a chance of taking out a mediocre shotty player, while I as a single lmg marine could hardly take out a mediocre lerk all by myself. I think it's all reasonably well balanced.
The problem I have with the shotgun is that it obliterates the choice to research/buy any other weapon. It just does too much damage to structures! If its anti-structure damage was nerfed (maybe set its damage type to "puncture"?), the ft/gl might become a more viable support weapon.
I think the Lerk comparison is a perfect example of how perfect the system can be, even with the exact same chances of survival.
Does a skulk have a reasonable chance against a shotgun? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? No...
Does an LMG marine have a reasonable chance against a Lerk? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? Hell yes. I love fighting against Lerks.
A nice way of putting the issue. Aliens do specialization much better than the 'jack-of-all-trades' marines. However, I think nerfing shotguns is only treating the symptom rather than the problem.
Specifically, changing the purchasable weapons to supplemental equipment rather than weapon replacement (e.g. assault rifle AND shotgun/grenade launcher/flamethrower rather than OR). Then you can tailor those weapons to specific roles (e.g. grenade launcher only does structure damage or shotgun only works at extreme close range).
Seriously though, I would be interested in trying this out.
Does a skulk have a reasonable chance against a shotgun? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? No...
Does an LMG marine have a reasonable chance against a Lerk? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? Hell yes. I love fighting against Lerks.
That's it. Fully Agree.
As Marines you still have the fun of the game (maybe except against Onos, depend of the level of your armor and the numbers of your partner), because of so many thing (shot at distance, groups, medpack and vigilance of the com, chalenge of killing Alien with your brain, etc...) . With the skulk vs shotgun there is no fun and the game become boring until you have another lifeform, lifeform that you can loose very quickly and, at opposite to SG, you can't pick up it again after you die.
When i play Marines, if i loose my SG, i just have to say "leave that SG it's mine, i come back to take it" and just go where i died previously for keep using my 20 res investment.
Even if another Marines pick it up after i die, the 20 res investment continues to benefit to someone. If you loose a Fade, you loose it, no way to take it back. It's even more rude.
I know it's not possible to give the chance to a death fade of recovering his previous lifeform (i'm not complaining), but this is just to show the difference between playing Marines and Alien, the notion of cost is not the same.
Imbalanxd, maybe you should consider trying to play NS2 as an objective-based team game...
But please let's continue the discussion revolving around the thought process of "i can't 1v1 this sger right now in hub for no reason with my skulk so it must be broken"
well in my opinion i tend to agree that the problem lies with the shotgun being an upgrade rather than a side grade.
Skulks ? no problem for a good shotgunner
Lerks ? easy, and if they try to spike you you can just pistol them
Gorge ? lol
Fades ? shotguns are kind of required against good fades
Onos ? shotguns are still good
its a no brainer decision, its why we see every marine with shotguns during matches. We had the same problem with the old grenade launcher, it was an upgrade for the lmg, there was no reason not to choose it and every reason to have it. Marines already have upgrades, armor and weapon upgrades, i think its better to make everything else be side grades. But thats just my opinion :P
I'm not going to say that the shotgun isn't better than the lmg in the majority of situations, but if you're finding it easy to kill lerks from a distance, or to pistol them to death when they're spiking you, then you're playing against distinctly sub-par lerks.
Imbalanxd, maybe you should consider trying to play NS2 as an objective-based team game...
But please let's continue the discussion revolving around the thought process of "i can't 1v1 this sger right now in hub for no reason with my skulk so it must be broken"
Said it before, but I'll say it again. If a single skulk can't take on a single marine, yet marines have a superior force multiplier... I'll let you figure out where this is going.
Imbalanxd, maybe you should consider trying to play NS2 as an objective-based team game...
But please let's continue the discussion revolving around the thought process of "i can't 1v1 this sger right now in hub for no reason with my skulk so it must be broken"
Said it before, but I'll say it again. If a single skulk can't take on a single marine, yet marines have a superior force multiplier... I'll let you figure out where this is going.
Now what I find odd is that when I watch div 1 casts, this force multiplier that marines apparently have doesn't actually seem to be a universal truth. A ball of marines with upgrades and shotguns taking on a similar number of unupgraded skulks (or even skulks with cara) and no higher lifeforms can often take out the skulks, but not always, or perhaps even 'usually'. The reality of that situation is that if aliens don't have higher lifeforms to add to the mix taking out shotgunning marines, then they're either being outplayed by better shooters, or they're being outteched by a better RTS team, or they're being outplayed by better macro-positioning, or a combination of all three.
A fairer comparison would be 3 marines, 2 with a1/w1 shotguns, taking on 2 skulks and a lerk with carapace. From what I've seen of top level competitive play, and from what I've played at lower levels in competition, public gather, and public servers, this is a pretty even match up on average.
(edit) Even if marines would have the edge in this 3-man push vs lerk and 2 skulks, add another skulk to the mix and it really swings towards aliens. DISCLAIMER: at least from what I've seen, which is a fair amount, and what from I've experienced (over 400h).
I'm not going to say that the shotgun isn't better than the lmg in the majority of situations, but if you're finding it easy to kill lerks from a distance, or to pistol them to death when they're spiking you, then you're playing against distinctly sub-par lerks.
your the one putting words in my mouth, your reading comprehension needs a little work. Skilled lerks are hard to kill at a distance, they dont make it easy, but you can chase them away provided you have the aim :P Im sorry if you are finding it difficult. My point still stands though, shotguns are good vs lerks at close range and lerks are hardly a counter to shotgunner. Once again, thats just my opinion :P
A fairer comparison would be 3 marines, 2 with a1/w1 shotguns, taking on 2 skulks and a lerk with carapace. From what I've seen of top level competitive play, and from what I've played at lower levels in competition, public gather, and public servers, this is a pretty even match up on average.
Even match up? Sure, why not.
In fact, I wouldn't say its fair. I would say its kind of in favor of the aliens. Not because the aliens will definitely win, but because the aliens can run away if they're losing. By "aliens", I of course mean the Lerk, and so we get to the problem which has been stated over and over again.
Those 2 skulks will die every time. Even in victory, they will die, and the Lerk will flap around like a hero. Hoorah.
There comes a point in every game where a useful skulk will spend 80% of his time respawning. I don't want to be that skulk. Do you?
I'm not going to say that the shotgun isn't better than the lmg in the majority of situations, but if you're finding it easy to kill lerks from a distance, or to pistol them to death when they're spiking you, then you're playing against distinctly sub-par lerks.
your the one putting words in my mouth, your reading comprehension needs a little work. Skilled lerks are hard to kill at a distance, they dont make it easy, but you can chase them away provided you have the aim :P Im sorry if you are finding it difficult. My point still stands though, shotguns are good vs lerks at close range and lerks are hardly a counter to shotgunner. Once again, thats just my opinion :P
A fairer comparison would be 3 marines, 2 with a1/w1 shotguns, taking on 2 skulks and a lerk with carapace. From what I've seen of top level competitive play, and from what I've played at lower levels in competition, public gather, and public servers, this is a pretty even match up on average.
Even match up? Sure, why not.
In fact, I wouldn't say its fair. I would say its kind of in favor of the aliens. Not because the aliens will definitely win, but because the aliens can run away if they're losing. By "aliens", I of course mean the Lerk, and so we get to the problem which has been stated over and over again.
Those 2 skulks will die every time. Even in victory, they will die, and the Lerk will flap around like a hero. Hoorah.
There comes a point in every game where a useful skulk will spend 80% of his time respawning. I don't want to be that skulk. Do you?
Go and take a look at some div 1 games where this situation happens a lot. You'll see very often the skulks don't die in this scenario (and in some of the cases of course they do). Denying an aggressive marine push is a major win for the aliens, especially if they ensure that the marines cannot get back to reclaim the shotguns.
I for one really enjoy these tense moments where, seemingly against the odds, a nice piece of teamwork gets you the engagement win.
When you say that the skulks die every time, it's ridiculous hyperbole, and a gross generalisation. I'm really trying to avoid responding with generalisations (like 'only rambos complain about shotguns being OP'), because such arguments are equally sweeping and ridiculous, but there IS some ring of truth behind that particular statement: where teamwork and coordination is required, ie taking down shotgun marines, and that teamwork is not present, there's a tendency for people to blame the problem on the shotgun. My assertion is that this blame on the shotgun is often misplaced, and instead players would do better to focus on teamplay, communication and coordination. I accept there is a degree of generalisation to that sentiment, but it's considerably less than most of the arguments in this thread against the current implementation of the shotgun.
Stop talking about div 1 games. This thread isn't, nor has it ever been, about balance, which is the only case in which reference to those games would be relevant.
This thread is about whether or not it is enjoyable to be a skulk against a shotgun. Competitive players do not play for enjoyment or fun, not in competitive games. They would stare at a wall for 30 minutes if it was the most efficient way to win a game.
As for your explanation for skulks not dying: you are living in a utopia. One where the skulks, who let me remind you, attack for diversion, don't die. The very units who are meant to be getting shot at don't die. Ok, yes, and the princess married the prince and they lived happily ever after. In the games I play, units fulfill their roles. Skulks get shot, fades and lerks take the kills. If the skulks aren't getting shot, then screw them, I don't need them, because these marines evidently can't hit anything.
its a no brainer decision, its why we see every marine with shotguns during matches. We had the same problem with the old grenade launcher, it was an upgrade for the lmg, there was no reason not to choose it and every reason to have it. Marines already have upgrades, armor and weapon upgrades, i think its better to make everything else be side grades. But thats just my opinion :P
Incidentally, I was interested to see in the recent dn vs bklub NSL match that reddog casted that 2 members of bklub (who seemed to be saving for exos at the end, admittedly) went with lmgs rather than shotguns, which they could have got from tres given the number of extractors at that point. I've also seen a fair few players take an lmg over a shotgun (one good player said to me in a game the other day that they prefer the lmg).
I am inclined to agree about a shotgun side-grade being perhaps preferable to the mostly-upgrade case we currently have, but just found it interesting to note that there are at least some (very good) players who don't always go for the shotgun over the lmg. In some cases it's definitely preferable to have a mix of shotgun and lmg marines (mainly to neutralise lerks: they can't get close because of shotguns, and spiking from afar against lmgs + pistols together is particularly dangerous for lerks).
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Anyway, a skulk will always be at a disadvantage against a shotgun, as it should be. This should not be the argument to change shotgun damage outputs imo.
I can however understand the points ScardyBob brings up, especially the first two, being...
- One or two shot kills reduces the player-player engagement
- You generally don't get much feedback your taking damage until your actually dead
To which I think maybe a possible solution would be to slightly reduce damage/shot, but increase ROF accordingly so that the overall DPS stays roughly thesame. In any case, I'd like to see gls and flamethrowers made a bit more useful and/or cheaper, so that there's more than one viable weapon upgrade to choose from.
The Shotgun is a disputed weapon, this is true, but it is far from impossible to overcome. Let's move away from the pub vs. pro discussion or full damage hits and hitoint/resource counting and go to where you are probably situated, a pub game with low to mid-skilled players.
Coming from someone who has played on both marine and alien side I hope I might be able to give some insight on how to deal with shotguns.
For this, let us take a look at the situation as a Marine player. I have stated this before, but since some people here are new: I am mediocre at best. This goes for both my aim and my movement skills (sometimes battlefield awareness, but that is another deal
-Especially when pesky Skulks get in close and start jumping from one wall to another, twisting their body in weird shapes, I tend to miss the right timing to make a full damage hit with the shotgun. I actually prefer the rifle because of that, I miss less bullets with that weapon than with the shotgun.
-And when I jump out of the way of a Skulk bite I tend to be as disoriented as the Skulk player, sometimes turning too far and missing the first shot. This can be used against me.
-Even if I have a good day with the shotgun and get those Skulks down there still is a problem for me: Those pesky Lerks keeping at a distance hitting me with their spikes. The only way to retaliate is to pull out my pistol and try to gun them down, but the second the get hit they twist around in midair like crazy, making them very hard to track and hit.
-And then there are those smart aliens that team up on me. One distracts me by showing himself to me while the other sneaks up from behind. Really hard to decide which one to hit first. Not that it makes a difference once both pounce on me at the same time.
And now, let us take a look at the Alien side:
-As a Skulk, it is important to learn that the walls and the ceiling are your floors. It is also advisable to keep moving (unless you know a Marine is closeby and are unsure whether you should attack or hide). In the mid- to lategame skulks are great for sneaking behind enemy lines and killing extractors or other unguarded buildings, or distracting the enemy for your teammates (a skulk in the foreground can make an exo spin like crazy while the gorges behind bile him to death). Celerity and Silence are great for the Skulk.
-If you have the resources left, go for a Lerk, preferrably with Celerity. Move about quickly, grab onto ceilings and dark spots to hide and gun down unsuspecting Marines. Or fly past them while spreading gas (get some practice first before trying this, some Marines have twitchy fingers
-Both Skulk and Lerk twist their body around a lot when turning around, you (as the Skulk/Lerk player) cannot see it but your opponent will notice. The better shots in the Marine team can still gun your down if you get too close but you make it a whole lot harder for them if you learn how to jump and twist around in midair a lot without losing too much momentum.
-Marines profit from teaming up, but Aliens do just as much. Two Skulks moving as a team can take down unaware lone marines in a matter of seconds, kill resource towers before the enemy can react and, most importantly, split enemy awareness. An opponent who has to choose between two targets will likely go for the wrong one first. Even bigger groups of marines moving in tight formations are easier to take out if you combine good teamplay (use voice chat to coordinate with your buddy) with suprise attacks. They will likely stand in each other's line of sight, making your job so much easier. If noone asks you to tag along take the initative, stick with someone you deem reliable, make yourself useful, before long he will start working with you, too.
This is behaviour I encounter on a regular basis, more or less frequently depending on the general skill found on the servers I play on. There is the risk that the Marine team is stacked or that people on the server you play are just generally better shots than what I described above, but n general I found that trying to do what I just described helped me getting down quite a few shotgun players (side note: I die to shotguns a lot more when being a gorge than I do when being a Skulk or Lerk
Skulks that leap and bounce off walls certainly are more difficult to kill than ones that run on the floor.
Fades that can shadow-step/blink effectively are damn near impossible to hit, even with a shot gun.
I practiced for an hour or so just last night over and over again trying to kill a fade trying to kill me with 1 weap 2 armor upgrade using a shotgun and I was still getting cut down at least 85% of the time. (That might be because I suck at aiming) but I believe dodging and moving in unpredictable ways is core to alien play.
A marine with 3/3 upgrades usually indicates aliens have been behind all game. Should a skulk really be able to compete with a 3/3 marine that far into the end game?
Alien must close distance to attack.. alien dies instantly once this is achieved.. thus feels wronged/robbed.
At face value a player may not understand intuitively why, since they think they did the right thing.. but shotguns just introduce another wrench into that supposedly so simple of an equation to those that do not know how to approach the situation. (LERKS! :-P)
As much as I find it exhilarating cleverly charging and leaping at a shotgunner to dodge their first shot, against any competent shotgunner, I just won't be able to land more than 1 bite before they can kill me.
Not unless I attempt to dodge out their entire clip, which has an even lower chance of success (not to mention that the marine can now go pistol).
That said, I've usually found 2 competent skulks can often work to defeat 1 competent shotgunner.
And I personally suck at shotgun so increasing the delay between shots would just stop me from using it even more.
If anything, the opposite happens on pubs. Marines play passive securing only one techpoint, only a few people get sgs and try to pressure, and 70% of the server is saving for that eventual dual exo they think they need. By then, aliens have 3 hives, the fades have been crushing your sg-less marines, and the game is pretty much over.
Usually the people buying the shotguns are the more experienced ones with it, know how to use it efficiently, and are willing to make the 20 res investment. Against any semi-competent alien team, a SGer still needs to stick with his team or he will easily be ambushed down and that p-res wasted.
Of course all that being said, my words were probably just wasted on you since at this point all you are capable of thinking is "omg my groundskulk methods aren't working again" and "its not me, its the gun".
Sooo.... because the lerk is 30 res and the SG is 20, the lerk SHOULD win? Ya, you can't say that just because something costs more res that it should win.
Also, like Ironhorse said, it's a problem of design. Not only for the reason he stated, but because it (and weapon/armor upgrades to some extent) make skulks completely obsolete as combat lifeforms mid-late game. Comparing it to the equivalent 0 res unit on the marines, LMG marines can continue to be useful in combat due to wep/armor upgrades. IMHO, this should not be the case, no lifeform/weapon should ever be obsolete in combat, especially not the one that the majority of people are for the majority of the game.
Also the difference is that marines use tres not pres to win games, by getting upgrades, aliens use pres and not tres. You can't just say, marines played correctly by using tres to get upgrades, but aliens didn't use their pres to get life forms therefore the base marine is op.
It is of absolutely no benefit to anyone for you to take into account the situation when Archea as aliens takes on nsplayer(1) with his shotgun and he somehow doesn't kill them.
The shotgun always wins. Go from there.
How many skulks will two shotguns beat though?
And what about factoring skill differential in? For example, say one marine player is twice as good as any alien player, and that marine player has a shotgun. How many alien players will he be able to kill at one time? Are we not maybe giving too much power to a single individual? I mean sure, we can hope that everyone is equally skilled, but in the (frequent) case that they are not, should we not at least try to have feedback loops somewhere, rather than steamroll loops like the shotgun?
The problem I have with the shotgun is that it obliterates the choice to research/buy any other weapon. It just does too much damage to structures! If its anti-structure damage was nerfed (maybe set its damage type to "puncture"?), the ft/gl might become a more viable support weapon.
I think the Lerk comparison is a perfect example of how perfect the system can be, even with the exact same chances of survival.
Does a skulk have a reasonable chance against a shotgun? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? No...
Does an LMG marine have a reasonable chance against a Lerk? No.
Is it still fun to try and take him on? Hell yes. I love fighting against Lerks.
Seriously though, I would be interested in trying this out.
That's it. Fully Agree.
As Marines you still have the fun of the game (maybe except against Onos, depend of the level of your armor and the numbers of your partner), because of so many thing (shot at distance, groups, medpack and vigilance of the com, chalenge of killing Alien with your brain, etc...) . With the skulk vs shotgun there is no fun and the game become boring until you have another lifeform, lifeform that you can loose very quickly and, at opposite to SG, you can't pick up it again after you die.
When i play Marines, if i loose my SG, i just have to say "leave that SG it's mine, i come back to take it" and just go where i died previously for keep using my 20 res investment.
Even if another Marines pick it up after i die, the 20 res investment continues to benefit to someone. If you loose a Fade, you loose it, no way to take it back. It's even more rude.
I know it's not possible to give the chance to a death fade of recovering his previous lifeform (i'm not complaining), but this is just to show the difference between playing Marines and Alien, the notion of cost is not the same.
But please let's continue the discussion revolving around the thought process of "i can't 1v1 this sger right now in hub for no reason with my skulk so it must be broken"
Never go soloing against shotgunner as a skulk if hes seen you. Its a team game.
Skulks ? no problem for a good shotgunner
Lerks ? easy, and if they try to spike you you can just pistol them
Gorge ? lol
Fades ? shotguns are kind of required against good fades
Onos ? shotguns are still good
its a no brainer decision, its why we see every marine with shotguns during matches. We had the same problem with the old grenade launcher, it was an upgrade for the lmg, there was no reason not to choose it and every reason to have it. Marines already have upgrades, armor and weapon upgrades, i think its better to make everything else be side grades. But thats just my opinion :P
Said it before, but I'll say it again. If a single skulk can't take on a single marine, yet marines have a superior force multiplier... I'll let you figure out where this is going.
Now what I find odd is that when I watch div 1 casts, this force multiplier that marines apparently have doesn't actually seem to be a universal truth. A ball of marines with upgrades and shotguns taking on a similar number of unupgraded skulks (or even skulks with cara) and no higher lifeforms can often take out the skulks, but not always, or perhaps even 'usually'. The reality of that situation is that if aliens don't have higher lifeforms to add to the mix taking out shotgunning marines, then they're either being outplayed by better shooters, or they're being outteched by a better RTS team, or they're being outplayed by better macro-positioning, or a combination of all three.
A fairer comparison would be 3 marines, 2 with a1/w1 shotguns, taking on 2 skulks and a lerk with carapace. From what I've seen of top level competitive play, and from what I've played at lower levels in competition, public gather, and public servers, this is a pretty even match up on average.
(edit) Even if marines would have the edge in this 3-man push vs lerk and 2 skulks, add another skulk to the mix and it really swings towards aliens. DISCLAIMER: at least from what I've seen, which is a fair amount, and what from I've experienced (over 400h).
Even match up? Sure, why not.
In fact, I wouldn't say its fair. I would say its kind of in favor of the aliens. Not because the aliens will definitely win, but because the aliens can run away if they're losing. By "aliens", I of course mean the Lerk, and so we get to the problem which has been stated over and over again.
Those 2 skulks will die every time. Even in victory, they will die, and the Lerk will flap around like a hero. Hoorah.
There comes a point in every game where a useful skulk will spend 80% of his time respawning. I don't want to be that skulk. Do you?
ROFL
That's a good one
Go and take a look at some div 1 games where this situation happens a lot. You'll see very often the skulks don't die in this scenario (and in some of the cases of course they do). Denying an aggressive marine push is a major win for the aliens, especially if they ensure that the marines cannot get back to reclaim the shotguns.
I for one really enjoy these tense moments where, seemingly against the odds, a nice piece of teamwork gets you the engagement win.
When you say that the skulks die every time, it's ridiculous hyperbole, and a gross generalisation. I'm really trying to avoid responding with generalisations (like 'only rambos complain about shotguns being OP'), because such arguments are equally sweeping and ridiculous, but there IS some ring of truth behind that particular statement: where teamwork and coordination is required, ie taking down shotgun marines, and that teamwork is not present, there's a tendency for people to blame the problem on the shotgun. My assertion is that this blame on the shotgun is often misplaced, and instead players would do better to focus on teamplay, communication and coordination. I accept there is a degree of generalisation to that sentiment, but it's considerably less than most of the arguments in this thread against the current implementation of the shotgun.
This thread is about whether or not it is enjoyable to be a skulk against a shotgun. Competitive players do not play for enjoyment or fun, not in competitive games. They would stare at a wall for 30 minutes if it was the most efficient way to win a game.
As for your explanation for skulks not dying: you are living in a utopia. One where the skulks, who let me remind you, attack for diversion, don't die. The very units who are meant to be getting shot at don't die. Ok, yes, and the princess married the prince and they lived happily ever after. In the games I play, units fulfill their roles. Skulks get shot, fades and lerks take the kills. If the skulks aren't getting shot, then screw them, I don't need them, because these marines evidently can't hit anything.
Incidentally, I was interested to see in the recent dn vs bklub NSL match that reddog casted that 2 members of bklub (who seemed to be saving for exos at the end, admittedly) went with lmgs rather than shotguns, which they could have got from tres given the number of extractors at that point. I've also seen a fair few players take an lmg over a shotgun (one good player said to me in a game the other day that they prefer the lmg).
I am inclined to agree about a shotgun side-grade being perhaps preferable to the mostly-upgrade case we currently have, but just found it interesting to note that there are at least some (very good) players who don't always go for the shotgun over the lmg. In some cases it's definitely preferable to have a mix of shotgun and lmg marines (mainly to neutralise lerks: they can't get close because of shotguns, and spiking from afar against lmgs + pistols together is particularly dangerous for lerks).
Just a point I found interesting.