I die over and over again as a marine, many many times vs a skulk one on one.... I have not got on the forums complaining about nerfing the other team... I just try and learn.
I do not agree a skulk should kill a marine on one on one when the marine can aim better. Get the first bite sure, but just get a free kill because you hid in a corner? No.
That AV mod looks pretty cool. Interesting color choices. Maybe NSL will allow AV mods in the future.
I dunno, if we do that, then we're opening the door for those alien custom skin mods from before.
probably not, av is probably handled my something other than skins.
if possible, feasibly, I hope they will allow AV mods.
No, what I mean is that some players were using custom Alien skin mods that made them easier to track. (Hmm.... this sounds familiar). It also negated aliens advantage in the darkness because they were easier to see so many servers banned them if I recall correctly. If we allowed custom AV vision then it'd be the same as allowing those custom alien skin mods.
I die over and over again as a marine, many many times vs a skulk one on one.... I have not got on the forums complaining about nerfing the other team... I just try and learn.
I do not agree a skulk should kill a marine on one on one when the marine can aim better. Get the first bite sure, but just get a free kill because you hid in a corner? No.
That AV mod looks pretty cool. Interesting color choices. Maybe NSL will allow AV mods in the future.
I dunno, if we do that, then we're opening the door for those alien custom skin mods from before.
probably not, av is probably handled my something other than skins.
if possible, feasibly, I hope they will allow AV mods.
No, what I mean is that some players were using custom Alien skin mods that made them easier to track. (Hmm.... this sounds familiar). It also negated aliens advantage in the darkness because they were easier to see so many servers banned them if I recall correctly. If we allowed custom AV vision then it'd be the same as allowing those custom alien skin mods.
No, it wouldn't - it's not for marines it's for aliens.
What is needed is an old AV mod (the one posted here isn't quite there unfortunately, there's still too much visual clutter although the colours (while too red) are better than vanilla vision), and that needs to be enabled in NSL.
AV mods are not in any way comparable to alien skin mods. For starters, alien skin mods allow marines to see skulks very easily. The normal alien vision highlights marines in bright orange, which at long distances is fine (unless the emergency lights are on in which case it's orange on red... fail).
Old AV was easy on the eye, as green is much less aggressive a colour, and had solid orange rather than an outline for structures and enemies: this made tracking much easier in CQC. At present, it's a horrible mess and needs to be fixed.
No, every encounter does not have more aliens than marines. Presuming the teams are even, that's not a thing. 1v1 encounter balance is stupidly important as one of the aliens best means of keeping the marines scattered is to harass backfield RT's, which tends to be responded to by one marine. Even if you outsmart them, bait them into the room, and get the jump on them it's *still* a 50/50 because of the boosted jump. Adding on to this encounter presuming skulks and base marines only, the marines gain an edge for every unit added to the encounter. A group of 4 marines against 4 skulks presuming equal skill has the marines above a 50/50. This is a big reason why large servers swing way out of balance and marine turtles are really hard to break.
Everything you said is true; marines have the upper hand in 1:1 encounters, which is exactly what I'm saying. A marine coming to defend an RT against a single skulk even more so because of matters of positioning. 1on1 encounters do happen, but the aliens are rightfully at a disadvantage at that point, because it's either their own fault (a stupid, greedy engagement) or because of a risk they took (biting RTs behind the lines). This is how it should be.
The point is, the aliens can always group up with every single player in their team and attack a specific location. How well and fast this works out depends on the level of teamwork they can muster, but there's always the possibility. The marines cannot do this because of the lack of mobility and the need for recappers. The marines need to be stronger in 1:1 situations, because they rarely happen. There will always be marines doing something else, and if there aren't, the aliens will attack somewhere where the marines aren't.
Take, for example, the first minutes of a match. The marines need to split to scout for baserushes and cap res from both sides; the aliens don't need to worry about a baserush and don't need to cap, so they can all choose to attack one side. If the marines do an even split, the aliens can choose whichever side and overwhelm the marines. If the marines make an uneven split, the aliens can choose to attack the weaker side and overwhelm them. If the marines don't split at all, and we would thus get a 1:1 encounter on the side the marines chose, the aliens can choose the empty side and rush the base. In every possible outcome, the aliens can have more players in the encounter than the marines if they so choose. This applies to later game stages too; if more than half the marines are pushing, attack the phase gate. If more than half the marines are defending, kill the pressure squad. Whichever way you go, you can always have more players in the encounter than the marines. The only exception is a turtle, but the aliens now have new toys in their hands to end them.
No, every encounter does not have more aliens than marines. Presuming the teams are even, that's not a thing. 1v1 encounter balance is stupidly important as one of the aliens best means of keeping the marines scattered is to harass backfield RT's, which tends to be responded to by one marine. Even if you outsmart them, bait them into the room, and get the jump on them it's *still* a 50/50 because of the boosted jump. Adding on to this encounter presuming skulks and base marines only, the marines gain an edge for every unit added to the encounter. A group of 4 marines against 4 skulks presuming equal skill has the marines above a 50/50. This is a big reason why large servers swing way out of balance and marine turtles are really hard to break.
Everything you said is true; marines have the upper hand in 1:1 encounters, which is exactly what I'm saying. A marine coming to defend an RT against a single skulk even more so because of matters of positioning. 1on1 encounters do happen, but the aliens are rightfully at a disadvantage at that point, because it's either their own fault (a stupid, greedy engagement) or because of a risk they took (biting RTs behind the lines). This is how it should be.
The point is, the aliens can always group up with every single player in their team and attack a specific location. How well and fast this works out depends on the level of teamwork they can muster, but there's always the possibility. The marines cannot do this because of the lack of mobility and the need for recappers. The marines need to be stronger in 1:1 situations, because they rarely happen. There will always be marines doing something else, and if there aren't, the aliens will attack somewhere where the marines aren't.
Take, for example, the first minutes of a match. The marines need to split to scout for baserushes and cap res from both sides; the aliens don't need to worry about a baserush and don't need to cap, so they can all choose to attack one side. If the marines do an even split, the aliens can choose whichever side and overwhelm the marines. If the marines make an uneven split, the aliens can choose to attack the weaker side and overwhelm them. If the marines don't split at all, and we would thus get a 1:1 encounter on the side the marines chose, the aliens can choose the empty side and rush the base. In every possible outcome, the aliens can have more players in the encounter than the marines if they so choose. This applies to later game stages too; if more than half the marines are pushing, attack the phase gate. If more than half the marines are defending, kill the pressure squad. Whichever way you go, you can always have more players in the encounter than the marines. The only exception is a turtle, but the aliens now have new toys in their hands to end them.
"the aliens can always group up[...]The marines cannot do this because of the lack of mobility"
You're not serious. A running marine can outrun a skulk without upgrade. The only way for the skulk the keep the pace is wall jump /BH. They can group up the same as Alien. In fact they often do in competitive games (watch reddog twitch tv).
"The marines need to split to scout for baserushes and cap res from both sides"
No they want to find the hive (not difficult with a decent commander) and shoot everything that come out because they fear to loose this advantage if Aliens get resources. Split or rush hive is a choice.
"the aliens don't need to worry about a baserush and don't need to cap"
Have you ever been hive lock? Sorry it was in 1.04. Read "Egg lock". The thing that make alien rush a base is to slow down marine and to wait for Cyst growth... Otherwise nothing much to do... booooring..
Alien have the same need to cap Rts. The problem for alien is to choose the right direction in order to protect efficiently the Cyst chain. That's why they delay development. So they scout the same.
"If the marines make an uneven split"
5 players on the field never is even. Larger game aren't just organized. You can't make a rule based on split proportion while you take example on free sized game (8vs8/9 10...12...)
"the aliens can choose to attack the weaker side and overwhelm them"
So alien are scouting too; right ? Otherwise how can they know ?
I can't believe you play marine.
Let's have a look at something:
Yoclan server last night on Tram; 43 minutes. We played a game in which the teams where even in number (~10vs10) and skill (apparently). Back and forth all the time.
At some point Marines had 3 bases Docking/Repair/Wharehouse (west side). And i must say they didn't put all their energy to get it. Far from it.
Fade and Lerk can't make it. Resistance is like a wall of bullet. The problem is no one is Neo in this game. Then Aliens get a double Onie party. After all, what else can we do? Aliens find a way to take back repair. No jetpack/exo at the time.
The game lasted long on this Repair episode. While trying to attack some other base. the commander always beaconed before we arrived. As soon as (s)he knew there was a double Onie party (and more after) he was following meticulously our moves with scans (so he had money) and a finger on Beacon.
We had to take repair 3 times, and each time they rebuild it fast (PG, mines, CC and even turrets) while we try the next base.
At some point we had 5 Onie + 2 gorges for taking back repair. 3 Lvl3 LMG in repair... only. But lvl3 just burn big time. The last time there was an Exo + 3 LMG. And we suffered loss though we a good flanking plan (crab tactic). 2 Onie down.
I mean they had the money for building 3 bases while we were putting to pieces their RTs... come on. We finally won after a series of 3 rush on Docking. What!!!
Let's just say no skulk did have a word to say in these operations. Only helping, from time to time. They did avoid Jetpacks and tried other target. Extractors...
A the end of the game i counted that the alien team produced no less than 8 Onie... But i do believe it was 10 (death/re-evolve, Khammender gifts). Ignore the fades and lerk dropped by the khammender.
Isn't it ridiculous ?
Ok it's a large game. But even on a 6vs6; Alien have a hard time to finish. And a hard time at early game. Last LS vs Saunamen is far from being an exception. Alien can't play smart, so they fall back to brute force dumb.
So please just stop saying marine are underpowered. It's utterly ridiculous. They have plenty of default abilities and toys to play with.
Alien have now:
-Skulk melee weapon cone has been reduced.
-Hit registration big time issue
-A(lien) V(omit)
-Gnarling
-Speed issue (as marine go faster with strafe jump)
-Sitting duck feeling since Strafe jump
-Hard to finish the last base syndrome
If you think Alien is OP in the first minutes of the game. Be my guest. i'm giving you my slot gladly. That's not for nothing people stack marine.
You're not serious. A running marine can outrun a skulk without upgrade. The only way for the skulk the keep the pace is wall jump /BH. They can group up the same as Alien. In fact they often do in competitive games (watch reddog twitch tv).
Where does this urban myth come from? A non-celerity skulk travels at 10-11 speed and can use vents. A marine with a rifle sprints at 6,25. Skulks cross distances on the map more than twice as fast as marines do. Could you please elaborate why you think a running marine can outrun a skulk?
Take Summit. You have 3 marines in Flight and 3 marines in Data. You also have 3 skulks in Computer Lab and 3 skulks in Glass Hallway. Now which do you think is more feasible; that the three marines in Data Core run to Flight Control to help those marines defend against or attack the skulks in Computer Lab, or that the three skulks in Computer Lab cross the map to Glass Hallway and attack Data Core as a group? Even if both teams are equally split apart on the map, the aliens are the ones who decide where to attack and with how many players. Not the marines.
No they want to find the hive (not difficult with a decent commander) and shoot everything that come out because they fear to loose this advantage if Aliens get resources. Split or rush hive is a choice.
Try this: every marine rushes towards the hive while every skulk goes to the marine base from the other side. Which side arrives at the enemy base first? Which side kills the command structure first?
Have you ever been hive lock? Sorry it was in 1.04. Read "Egg lock". The thing that make alien rush a base is to slow down marine and to wait for Cyst growth... Otherwise nothing much to do... booooring..
Of course the aliens have to watch out for their base too, but marine hiverushes are very different from alien baserushes; they happen slower and can be seen more easily, and the ability to spawn eggs has made egg-locking almost impossible. Losing a marine base by accident is much easier than losing a hive by accident.
Alien have the same need to cap Rts. The problem for alien is to choose the right direction in order to protect efficiently the Cyst chain. That's why they delay development. So they scout the same.
You missed the point. Alien players don't cap resource nodes, the alien commander caps resource nodes. The aliens don't have to stop at their naturals to help the commander cap, they're all free to push onwards from the first minute. If you ever watch comp games, you see that the first encounters almost invariably happen at the marine naturals, not the alien naturals. Because the aliens are faster and don't have to stay behind to cap.
If you think Alien is OP in the first minutes of the game. Be my guest. i'm giving you my slot gladly. That's not for nothing people stack marine.
I have never, ever, ever, ever said that. If anything, the aliens are weaker than the marines in the early stages of the game. What I've said this whole time is that balancing 1on1 situations to be an exact 50-50 chance is going to make marines lose a lot more fights, because in an average encounter there usually are more aliens than there are marines. We're of course only talking about skulks and the early game here, since that's what people seem to have a problem with: the 1on1 situation between an early game marine and an early game skulk.
All in all, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here.
You're not serious. A running marine can outrun a skulk without upgrade. The only way for the skulk the keep the pace is wall jump /BH. They can group up the same as Alien. In fact they often do in competitive games (watch reddog twitch tv).
Where does this urban myth come from? A non-celerity skulk travels at 10-11 speed and can use vents. A marine with a rifle sprints at 6,25. Skulks cross distances on the map more than twice as fast as marines do. Could you please elaborate why you think a running marine can outrun a skulk?
Take Summit. You have 3 marines in Flight and 3 marines in Data. You also have 3 skulks in Computer Lab and 3 skulks in Glass Hallway. Now which do you think is more feasible; that the three marines in Data Core run to Flight Control to help those marines defend against or attack the skulks in Computer Lab, or that the three skulks in Computer Lab cross the map to Glass Hallway and attack Data Core as a group? Even if both teams are equally split apart on the map, the aliens are the ones who decide where to attack and with how many players. Not the marines.
The proper table
Move forward is you press Fwd key
Move forward is you press Fwd key and 1 leap (looking at horizon)
BH bunny hoping without leap.
BH+Leap using everything.
The difference you're talking about is 7 vs 6.25. it is about 11%.
Ask any alien how many time did he feel he bit the ... air running after a marine on the ground. You can't always be on the wall or ceiling BH/WJ. When you ambush you have to land on the ground where lies the meat. So in a engagement that last +/-5 seconds the 11% is nothing if you have to run after the marine (no wall nearby). Add to that : lag issue, 'Regs', all nerf to alien mentioned before, strafe jump and this is nightmare land.
Don't think it is Mph or something close to average human values. That's why even if it is 11%, it's really closer than you think.
But thats not the only thing. I trained a little "strafe jumping" (while i was updating my table). I could reach a +/-7.10 during the jump (for a tiny, tiny,tiny,tiny millisecond, but i was there). I start at 0 and by combining quickly 'run' and SJ, i reach that speed. A marine can jump from one side of a tech point to the other. Hmmm. So technically i just did outrun the speed of a skulk.
You gonna say it's not like that in a game. Trust me with a programmable mouse with a good load of button on it: It is!
So basically Alien are condemned to use walls to build up speed (You're not at 10-11 like that, it needs time, training and a compliant map to get there) so they can outrun marines.
Make a race just for fun. You'll see that moving forward just isn't so different between a running marine and a skulk. In fact they always meet in the same rooms in early game. It's not for nothing.
No they want to find the hive (not difficult with a decent commander) and shoot everything that come out because they fear to loose this advantage if Aliens get resources. Split or rush hive is a choice.
Try this: every marine rushes towards the hive while every skulk goes to the marine base from the other side. Which side arrives at the enemy base first? Which side kills the command structure first?
Have you ever been hive lock? Sorry it was in 1.04. Read "Egg lock". The thing that make alien rush a base is to slow down marine and to wait for Cyst growth... Otherwise nothing much to do... booooring..
Of course the aliens have to watch out for their base too, but marine hiverushes are very different from alien baserushes; they happen slower and can be seen more easily, and the ability to spawn eggs has made egg-locking almost impossible. Losing a marine base by accident is much easier than losing a hive by accident.
By accident ? what???!!! There is no accident. All is a matter of choice. A bad call stays a bad call.
Alien have the same need to cap Rts. The problem for alien is to choose the right direction in order to protect efficiently the Cyst chain. That's why they delay development. So they scout the same.
You missed the point. Alien players don't cap resource nodes, the alien commander caps resource nodes. The aliens don't have to stop at their naturals to help the commander cap, they're all free to push onwards from the first minute. If you ever watch comp games, you see that the first encounters almost invariably happen at the marine naturals, not the alien naturals. Because the aliens are faster and don't have to stay behind to cap.
It is common to play with a "perma gorge". He's not gonna be the 'ill-killer' of the day but the builder. You know a drifter cost 8 res... Right now, on B255, it is preferred to put every unit at offensive position with Carapace on high skill. Not for nothing either.
Whatever you can imagine the RTs capping always takes time for both teams.
A/ Purely building it whatever the system
B/ or defending it.
The time is distributed differently on Alien and marine side.
If you think Alien is OP in the first minutes of the game. Be my guest. i'm giving you my slot gladly. That's not for nothing people stack marine.
I have never, ever, ever, ever said that. If anything, the aliens are weaker than the marines in the early stages of the game. What I've said this whole time is that balancing 1on1 situations to be an exact 50-50 chance is going to make marines lose a lot more fights, because in an average encounter there usually are more aliens than there are marines. We're of course only talking about skulks and the early game here, since that's what people seem to have a problem with: the 1on1 situation between an early game marine and an early game skulk.
All in all, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here.
Teams are even. If alien choose to engage like "fade ball", or "skulk ball" isn't for the fun only. They need it.
I must say I do not understand half of the points you're trying to make, be it a communication barrier or you not making sense.
Also, you're missing the point with your speed table. I'm not talking about the speeds in combat, I'm talking about the time it takes for a skulk to cross a distance on the map as opposed to a marine, because this is a key factor in determining who's got the say on where and how to engage. Depending on the map, skulks can easily cross distances 2-3 times faster than a sprinting marine.
Make a race just for fun. You'll see that moving forward just isn't so different between a running marine and a skulk. In fact they always meet in the same rooms in early game. It's not for nothing.
Skulks are faster than marines. I cannot see how you can argue against that. If the skulks started running towards the marines at the start of the game at max speed, and the marines started doing the same, they would encounter each other much closer to the marine base than the alien hive. There is no way around this.
I must say I do not understand half of the points you're trying to make, be it a communication barrier or you not making sense.
Also, you're missing the point with your speed table. I'm not talking about the speeds in combat, I'm talking about the time it takes for a skulk to cross a distance on the map as opposed to a marine, because this is a key factor in determining who's got the say on where and how to engage. Depending on the map, skulks can easily cross distances 2-3 times faster than a sprinting marine.
You make it look like the alien always have the "initiative". Far from it on B255. Alien only decide which option they take after what's left on any early engagement. The choice are clearly reduced. Left-right strategy, Ca-ra-pa-ce. I cannot call an initiative what looks like a desperate call.
Alien only can build up speed. It takes time. On a game with more than 6vs6, it impossible not to cross a marine on the way. period.
Make a race just for fun. You'll see that moving forward just isn't so different between a running marine and a skulk. In fact they always meet in the same rooms in early game. It's not for nothing.
Skulks are faster than marines. I cannot see how you can argue against that. If the skulks started running towards the marines at the start of the game at max speed, and the marines started doing the same, they would encounter each other much closer to the marine base than the alien hive. There is no way around this.
Clearly yes because you assume the skulk speed is a constant 10. Far from it. Try it you'll see. Making the two opponents meet at some specific room is also one of the reason some vents have been removed or nerfed. Vents aren't what they use to be.
In a real game (starting game scenario), you can't do that either because of all the things you need to do that make you loose speed (willingly or not).
because of :
-maps. sometimes it's not a peace of cake. And sometime not really suited for travel/combat or being undetected.
-The rooms where you gonna meet the opponent. If you run you meet bullets from a distance (great speed meet useless feeder). If you decide to ambush you have to stop somewhere (speed = 0).
Average speed is quite the same.
In middle game marines have PGs... So if it is a decent marine team and commander they only have to go from one room to another after they pop from a PG. They don't need that much speed.
Comments
No, what I mean is that some players were using custom Alien skin mods that made them easier to track. (Hmm.... this sounds familiar). It also negated aliens advantage in the darkness because they were easier to see so many servers banned them if I recall correctly. If we allowed custom AV vision then it'd be the same as allowing those custom alien skin mods.
No, it wouldn't - it's not for marines it's for aliens.
What is needed is an old AV mod (the one posted here isn't quite there unfortunately, there's still too much visual clutter although the colours (while too red) are better than vanilla vision), and that needs to be enabled in NSL.
AV mods are not in any way comparable to alien skin mods. For starters, alien skin mods allow marines to see skulks very easily. The normal alien vision highlights marines in bright orange, which at long distances is fine (unless the emergency lights are on in which case it's orange on red... fail).
Old AV was easy on the eye, as green is much less aggressive a colour, and had solid orange rather than an outline for structures and enemies: this made tracking much easier in CQC. At present, it's a horrible mess and needs to be fixed.
Everything you said is true; marines have the upper hand in 1:1 encounters, which is exactly what I'm saying. A marine coming to defend an RT against a single skulk even more so because of matters of positioning. 1on1 encounters do happen, but the aliens are rightfully at a disadvantage at that point, because it's either their own fault (a stupid, greedy engagement) or because of a risk they took (biting RTs behind the lines). This is how it should be.
The point is, the aliens can always group up with every single player in their team and attack a specific location. How well and fast this works out depends on the level of teamwork they can muster, but there's always the possibility. The marines cannot do this because of the lack of mobility and the need for recappers. The marines need to be stronger in 1:1 situations, because they rarely happen. There will always be marines doing something else, and if there aren't, the aliens will attack somewhere where the marines aren't.
Take, for example, the first minutes of a match. The marines need to split to scout for baserushes and cap res from both sides; the aliens don't need to worry about a baserush and don't need to cap, so they can all choose to attack one side. If the marines do an even split, the aliens can choose whichever side and overwhelm the marines. If the marines make an uneven split, the aliens can choose to attack the weaker side and overwhelm them. If the marines don't split at all, and we would thus get a 1:1 encounter on the side the marines chose, the aliens can choose the empty side and rush the base. In every possible outcome, the aliens can have more players in the encounter than the marines if they so choose. This applies to later game stages too; if more than half the marines are pushing, attack the phase gate. If more than half the marines are defending, kill the pressure squad. Whichever way you go, you can always have more players in the encounter than the marines. The only exception is a turtle, but the aliens now have new toys in their hands to end them.
"the aliens can always group up[...]The marines cannot do this because of the lack of mobility"
You're not serious. A running marine can outrun a skulk without upgrade. The only way for the skulk the keep the pace is wall jump /BH. They can group up the same as Alien. In fact they often do in competitive games (watch reddog twitch tv).
"The marines need to split to scout for baserushes and cap res from both sides"
No they want to find the hive (not difficult with a decent commander) and shoot everything that come out because they fear to loose this advantage if Aliens get resources. Split or rush hive is a choice.
"the aliens don't need to worry about a baserush and don't need to cap"
Have you ever been hive lock? Sorry it was in 1.04. Read "Egg lock". The thing that make alien rush a base is to slow down marine and to wait for Cyst growth... Otherwise nothing much to do... booooring..
Alien have the same need to cap Rts. The problem for alien is to choose the right direction in order to protect efficiently the Cyst chain. That's why they delay development. So they scout the same.
"If the marines make an uneven split"
5 players on the field never is even. Larger game aren't just organized. You can't make a rule based on split proportion while you take example on free sized game (8vs8/9 10...12...)
"the aliens can choose to attack the weaker side and overwhelm them"
So alien are scouting too; right ? Otherwise how can they know ?
I can't believe you play marine.
Let's have a look at something:
Yoclan server last night on Tram; 43 minutes. We played a game in which the teams where even in number (~10vs10) and skill (apparently). Back and forth all the time.
At some point Marines had 3 bases Docking/Repair/Wharehouse (west side). And i must say they didn't put all their energy to get it. Far from it.
Fade and Lerk can't make it. Resistance is like a wall of bullet. The problem is no one is Neo in this game. Then Aliens get a double Onie party. After all, what else can we do? Aliens find a way to take back repair. No jetpack/exo at the time.
The game lasted long on this Repair episode. While trying to attack some other base. the commander always beaconed before we arrived. As soon as (s)he knew there was a double Onie party (and more after) he was following meticulously our moves with scans (so he had money) and a finger on Beacon.
We had to take repair 3 times, and each time they rebuild it fast (PG, mines, CC and even turrets) while we try the next base.
At some point we had 5 Onie + 2 gorges for taking back repair. 3 Lvl3 LMG in repair... only. But lvl3 just burn big time. The last time there was an Exo + 3 LMG. And we suffered loss though we a good flanking plan (crab tactic). 2 Onie down.
I mean they had the money for building 3 bases while we were putting to pieces their RTs... come on. We finally won after a series of 3 rush on Docking. What!!!
Let's just say no skulk did have a word to say in these operations. Only helping, from time to time. They did avoid Jetpacks and tried other target. Extractors...
A the end of the game i counted that the alien team produced no less than 8 Onie... But i do believe it was 10 (death/re-evolve, Khammender gifts). Ignore the fades and lerk dropped by the khammender.
Isn't it ridiculous ?
Ok it's a large game. But even on a 6vs6; Alien have a hard time to finish. And a hard time at early game. Last LS vs Saunamen is far from being an exception. Alien can't play smart, so they fall back to brute force dumb.
So please just stop saying marine are underpowered. It's utterly ridiculous. They have plenty of default abilities and toys to play with.
Alien have now:
-Skulk melee weapon cone has been reduced.
-Hit registration big time issue
-A(lien) V(omit)
-Gnarling
-Speed issue (as marine go faster with strafe jump)
-Sitting duck feeling since Strafe jump
-Hard to finish the last base syndrome
If you think Alien is OP in the first minutes of the game. Be my guest. i'm giving you my slot gladly. That's not for nothing people stack marine.
Where does this urban myth come from? A non-celerity skulk travels at 10-11 speed and can use vents. A marine with a rifle sprints at 6,25. Skulks cross distances on the map more than twice as fast as marines do. Could you please elaborate why you think a running marine can outrun a skulk?
Take Summit. You have 3 marines in Flight and 3 marines in Data. You also have 3 skulks in Computer Lab and 3 skulks in Glass Hallway. Now which do you think is more feasible; that the three marines in Data Core run to Flight Control to help those marines defend against or attack the skulks in Computer Lab, or that the three skulks in Computer Lab cross the map to Glass Hallway and attack Data Core as a group? Even if both teams are equally split apart on the map, the aliens are the ones who decide where to attack and with how many players. Not the marines.
Try this: every marine rushes towards the hive while every skulk goes to the marine base from the other side. Which side arrives at the enemy base first? Which side kills the command structure first?
Of course the aliens have to watch out for their base too, but marine hiverushes are very different from alien baserushes; they happen slower and can be seen more easily, and the ability to spawn eggs has made egg-locking almost impossible. Losing a marine base by accident is much easier than losing a hive by accident.
You missed the point. Alien players don't cap resource nodes, the alien commander caps resource nodes. The aliens don't have to stop at their naturals to help the commander cap, they're all free to push onwards from the first minute. If you ever watch comp games, you see that the first encounters almost invariably happen at the marine naturals, not the alien naturals. Because the aliens are faster and don't have to stay behind to cap.
I have never, ever, ever, ever said that. If anything, the aliens are weaker than the marines in the early stages of the game. What I've said this whole time is that balancing 1on1 situations to be an exact 50-50 chance is going to make marines lose a lot more fights, because in an average encounter there usually are more aliens than there are marines. We're of course only talking about skulks and the early game here, since that's what people seem to have a problem with: the 1on1 situation between an early game marine and an early game skulk.
All in all, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here.
Move forward is you press Fwd key
Move forward is you press Fwd key and 1 leap (looking at horizon)
BH bunny hoping without leap.
BH+Leap using everything.
The difference you're talking about is 7 vs 6.25. it is about 11%.
Ask any alien how many time did he feel he bit the ... air running after a marine on the ground. You can't always be on the wall or ceiling BH/WJ. When you ambush you have to land on the ground where lies the meat. So in a engagement that last +/-5 seconds the 11% is nothing if you have to run after the marine (no wall nearby). Add to that : lag issue, 'Regs', all nerf to alien mentioned before, strafe jump and this is nightmare land.
Don't think it is Mph or something close to average human values. That's why even if it is 11%, it's really closer than you think.
But thats not the only thing. I trained a little "strafe jumping" (while i was updating my table). I could reach a +/-7.10 during the jump (for a tiny, tiny,tiny,tiny millisecond, but i was there). I start at 0 and by combining quickly 'run' and SJ, i reach that speed. A marine can jump from one side of a tech point to the other. Hmmm. So technically i just did outrun the speed of a skulk.
You gonna say it's not like that in a game. Trust me with a programmable mouse with a good load of button on it: It is!
So basically Alien are condemned to use walls to build up speed (You're not at 10-11 like that, it needs time, training and a compliant map to get there) so they can outrun marines.
Make a race just for fun. You'll see that moving forward just isn't so different between a running marine and a skulk. In fact they always meet in the same rooms in early game. It's not for nothing.
It always depends on maps!
By accident ? what???!!! There is no accident. All is a matter of choice. A bad call stays a bad call.
It is common to play with a "perma gorge". He's not gonna be the 'ill-killer' of the day but the builder. You know a drifter cost 8 res... Right now, on B255, it is preferred to put every unit at offensive position with Carapace on high skill. Not for nothing either.
Whatever you can imagine the RTs capping always takes time for both teams.
A/ Purely building it whatever the system
B/ or defending it.
The time is distributed differently on Alien and marine side.
Teams are even. If alien choose to engage like "fade ball", or "skulk ball" isn't for the fun only. They need it.
Also, you're missing the point with your speed table. I'm not talking about the speeds in combat, I'm talking about the time it takes for a skulk to cross a distance on the map as opposed to a marine, because this is a key factor in determining who's got the say on where and how to engage. Depending on the map, skulks can easily cross distances 2-3 times faster than a sprinting marine.
Skulks are faster than marines. I cannot see how you can argue against that. If the skulks started running towards the marines at the start of the game at max speed, and the marines started doing the same, they would encounter each other much closer to the marine base than the alien hive. There is no way around this.
You make it look like the alien always have the "initiative". Far from it on B255. Alien only decide which option they take after what's left on any early engagement. The choice are clearly reduced. Left-right strategy, Ca-ra-pa-ce. I cannot call an initiative what looks like a desperate call.
Alien only can build up speed. It takes time. On a game with more than 6vs6, it impossible not to cross a marine on the way. period.
Clearly yes because you assume the skulk speed is a constant 10. Far from it. Try it you'll see. Making the two opponents meet at some specific room is also one of the reason some vents have been removed or nerfed. Vents aren't what they use to be.
In a real game (starting game scenario), you can't do that either because of all the things you need to do that make you loose speed (willingly or not).
because of :
-maps. sometimes it's not a peace of cake. And sometime not really suited for travel/combat or being undetected.
-The rooms where you gonna meet the opponent. If you run you meet bullets from a distance (great speed meet useless feeder). If you decide to ambush you have to stop somewhere (speed = 0).
Average speed is quite the same.
In middle game marines have PGs... So if it is a decent marine team and commander they only have to go from one room to another after they pop from a PG. They don't need that much speed.
All things considered the difference is thin.