Um... This would be an insane buff to the GL, greatly increasing its kill potential against life forms. Whut.
Hmm not really, the reload time on GL is too long even for 1 grenade. In fact firing once and reloading takes so much time that it cant really be used in close combat ( vs fades and lerks ). It will effectively reduce the dps of GLs while increasing the chance of having a hit with manual detonation, if you have the timing/aim.
Placing all 4 nades and then reloading to detonate all 4 of them can be too strong (especially if aliens cant see them in AV).
#3 If a lifeform is lost to a GL, either it's a fringe case of luck, or the life form made a fatal mistake in choosing to dis/engage how they did. It's frustrating to lose a fade to a GL, but if you did, chances are almost always that it's mostly your fault.
The thought process would then be to change the weapon in so, lowering the player damage, leaving it be the same for structures. But at the same time implementating the detonation, so you have a chance to fend of aliens with some smart nade placing..
Ok, so the 'remote detonation' solution as compares to the 'detonate only on hit solution' -
RD -
- lower player damage
- Broadens the scope of projectile detonation scenarios (this is a buff)
- encourages spam and liberal scattering of explosions that the player can control the timing of
DOOH -
- lower player damage
- narrows the scope of projectile detonation scenarios (this is a nerf, but a very purposeful nerf)
- encourages skillful, intelligent play with the GL
I'm not sure why I'm even comparing the two.
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to be able to make my GL-that-didnt-hit-anything still explode at the exact perfect timing to chip the last bit of health off of a fleeing fade, but something tells me that is the exact antithesis of what people (seem to) want from the GL. It'd be fun, but that kind of mechanic just does not fit well into this game.
[...] the GL already had their cost increased by 25% in 268
Grenade launchers may be super effective, but your math skills are not.
Grenade launchers used to be the cheapest marine weapon at 15 pres.
Their cost has been increased by 5 so that they now cost 20pres (i.e. on the same level as the shotgun).
5/15 equals 1/3 equals a whopping 33% price increase, because you got to take the old price as your base, not the new value.
In my opinion the GL is a costly weapon to use+lose now. And it will take quite a while until you can afford a new one.
Morale:
Don't play on 24+ slot servers.
(because it's fucking hard to miss if there are 15 skulks piled up in a tiny room)
[/quote]
Mines are lit up and stationary... if you have more issues with mines over nades... idk what to tell you. Avoid mines? Play against more glers?
[/quote]
Mines are always there until they detonate, and will always blow up if you get too close, with Gls you have to be in the explosion when it detonates. Even though mines get the orange outline thingy as well sometimes they can be placed in tricky places like the exits of vents where you cant see them, also sometimes you don't notice them until its too late.
Mines are always there until they detonate, and will always blow up if you get too close, with Gls you have to be in the explosion when it detonates. Even though mines get the orange outline thingy as well sometimes they can be placed in tricky places like the exits of vents where you cant see them, also sometimes you don't notice them until its too late.
Just my opinion
Well that's the skill associated with mines, isn't it?
For the record, also, I think in the interest of reducing alien frustration from GL deaths (with or without my previously detailed changes) GL projectiles should absolutely be highlighted.
Why would this reduce frustration? Well, being hit by something you can't dodge is one thing- happens all the time.
Getting hit by something you cant even see to attempt to dodge?
Speaking of mines. I think that really smart marine scientists should have developed a coating that doesn't make them light up like a Christmas tree if seen by alien eyes. Not taking your enemies' senses into account pretty much nullifies a stationary explosion trap...
Speaking of mines. I think that really smart marine scientists should have developed a coating that doesn't make them light up like a Christmas tree if seen by alien eyes. Not taking your enemies' senses into account pretty much nullifies a stationary explosion trap...
Don't travel down this road, my friend; soon you will ask yourself: Why don't we just ARC the Kharaa from orbit/the room next to their hive that has all doors closed? Why is the commander even on the ground? Why is it necessary for marines to research the same tech over and over again, with resources extracted on the battlefield?
Actually, the highlighting grenades feature would be really really nice. I have zero idea on its effect on performance but if its something that doesn't have a noticeable effect then I say put it in! We already have highlighted stuff like parasite on mines and would be a really good idea that probably wouldn't also need the contemplation of a nerf anywhere else.
Good players can identify when nades are launched anyway but it just helps a bit for lower players who aren't able to discern them and helps eliminate any confusion as to where nades are going and come from, helping players identify windows of opportunity to attack, punishing reckless GL play.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I'd be down for a nerfed player GL damage if I can get more control out of it to create some "skill depth" of this weapon. Anyone who's played TF2 would be able to use it.
#3 If a lifeform is lost to a GL, either it's a fringe case of luck, or the life form made a fatal mistake in choosing to dis/engage how they did. It's frustrating to lose a fade to a GL, but if you did, chances are almost always that it's mostly your fault.
Disagree.
I'd say when I personally die to grenades its typically 70% pure dumb luck and not my fault, and it's incredibly frustrating when it's unavoidable.
I.e. Quietly Flying around a corner into a projectile, first volley of an unrealistic physics bounce around a corner and right into my feet, or again the glitchy physics allow for detonation at melee range despite me intentionally closing the gap to negate the minimum distance primer. (usually a brief delay occurs as the projectile freezes in air)
I don't care about the times when I die to GLs that I know are incoming or being spammed.
I don't care about skilled shots that connect (typically i congratulate people)
I care about the unavoidable, unintentional, unskilled deaths that lead to my frustration.. which are way more frequent than they should be (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I'd sooner have the GL projectile outlined and seen through walls than take aware the benefits of GL spam (suppression, attention grabbing, broad AOE damage) so that I could never say it was "unavoidable" again. Oh and fix the melee detonation issues.
Edit: I posted this before seeing your table flipping emote AND that you agreed with outlining. >.>
Also.. to all that suggest controlled detonation : We tried it when the dedicated GL was first tested internally.. It was grossly OP
I'd be down for a nerfed player GL damage if I can get more control out of it to create some "skill depth" of this weapon. Anyone who's played TF2 would be able to use it.
I've mentioned before that increasing nade projectile speed would be a nice counter-buff to the player damage nerf, giving you more control over where the nades can land, not an enormous change but enough to give players a degree of control instead of most players just spamming them hoping they hit something.
I'd be down for a nerfed player GL damage if I can get more control out of it to create some "skill depth" of this weapon. Anyone who's played TF2 would be able to use it really badly.
Changed to reflect the sad truth of the situation. I think the skill depth is there already, but the skill floor is somewhere near the center of the planet and doesn't even slightly allude to the true nature of the GL's power.
@IronHorse , did you try it with the same damage as it is now? Cuz yes then it would be op, the point is to lower the damage but make it easier to use. No one wants to make the weapon useless, but lowering the 1shot deaths would certainly disappear if the player damage was decreased.
Well that's the skill associated with mines, isn't it?[/quote]
Well of course there skill with as far as I can tell everything in this game, but even though grenade launchers are pretty easy to use effectively they still take more skill than noticing that aliens are using/likely will use a vent and walking up to it and placing a mine right near the exit.
If I can see the outlined grenade flying to the hive, I'll leap into it to save the hive. #skulkmartyr
Edit - I don't think they should be seen through walls, @ironhorse . Idk if you really meant that or not. Unless someone parasites the nade in mid-air lol
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
For me, if I can see this as an alternative to trapping with the shotgun. Using the remote explosion GL to FINISH off a fleeing target (by setting up a quick trap) like a injured Fade for example I can see the GL's being used more tactically. The proposed player damage nerf would be weak enough to make it impossible to instantly kill him (Fade and Onos would probably survive, can't speak to Skulk/Lerk/Gorge), highlighted with default alien vision (Much like a mine, disregarding any trap would then have only have yourself to blame)
In the situation where a Marine Remote GL is versus a full health alien, there's no more impact detonation, so again, less need to spam. Only skilled remote detonation allowing for similar close-range weakness and self-FF danger.
With this, maybe we'll see GL's showing up more often being used more tactically and less dumb luck spam. Maybe this might pull some of the spotlight from a Shotgun for use in base assaults.
Thoughts? I'm kind of liking where this is headed.
For me, if I can see this as an alternative to trapping with the shotgun. Using the remote explosion GL to FINISH off a fleeing target (by setting up a quick trap) like a injured Fade for example I can see the GL's being used more tactically. The proposed player damage nerf would be weak enough to make it impossible to instantly kill him (Fade and Onos would probably survive, can't speak to Skulk/Lerk/Gorge), highlighted with default alien vision (Much like a mine, disregarding any trap would then have only have yourself to blame)
In the situation where a Marine Remote GL is versus a full health alien, there's no more impact detonation, so again, less need to spam. Only skilled remote detonation allowing for similar close-range weakness and self-FF danger.
With this, maybe we'll see GL's showing up more often being used more tactically and less dumb luck spam. Maybe this might pull some of the spotlight from a Shotgun for use in base assaults.
Thoughts? I'm kind of liking where this is headed.
Afaik the GL already hurts lifeforms that are low on health the most (via splash damage). So we don't really want to reinforce that.
It also doesn't really serve the GL's purpose as anti-structure weapon. Of course, if we want to change the purpose, fine - but that's a whole new matter.
For me, if I can see this as an alternative to trapping with the shotgun. Using the remote explosion GL to FINISH off a fleeing target (by setting up a quick trap) like a injured Fade for example I can see the GL's being used more tactically. The proposed player damage nerf would be weak enough to make it impossible to instantly kill him (Fade and Onos would probably survive, can't speak to Skulk/Lerk/Gorge), highlighted with default alien vision (Much like a mine, disregarding any trap would then have only have yourself to blame)
In the situation where a Marine Remote GL is versus a full health alien, there's no more impact detonation, so again, less need to spam. Only skilled remote detonation allowing for similar close-range weakness and self-FF danger.
With this, maybe we'll see GL's showing up more often being used more tactically and less dumb luck spam. Maybe this might pull some of the spotlight from a Shotgun for use in base assaults.
Thoughts? I'm kind of liking where this is headed.
Honestly I feel this makes the situation even worse. Gls are supposed to be for attacking structures, and while they are annoying for grenade spam taking out skulks and that, this would make it a complete destroyer of lifeforms.
With a normal Gl, even if your spamming it as fast as possible it fires at detonates at a rythmic pace
Thunk thunk thunk thunk, pause, Boom boom boom boom. This would allow you to detonate all four at once. Getting hit by one gl is already massive damage. 4x that would be rediculous. You place 4 next to the door, a lerk is flying in through the door to go bite some marines and KABOOM lerk guts all over the place. Sure, if you miss then you have to reload again you cant shoot him out of the air due to the no detonation on hit, but still to have the potential to due so actually with just some good reactions would be crazy.
Although the problem is is that then its pretty bad at doing anything else but extremley frustrating unfair kills. you cant really get direct hits to damage sctructures as they just bounce so much and you have to get them somehow right next to the structure, making jp gl rushes pretty much ineffective, and also you cant do crap to defend you self against an upgraded skulk with leap even with a jp, That costs the same amount as SG jp, you should be able to fight lifeforms some with that much res.
So in conclusion you end up with a weapon that is very bad at fighting structures (The intended purpose of the gl) and lifeforms and really all it can do is painfully unfair and rediculous kills.
In my opinion, grenade launchers could be more balanced by making the blast radius smaller, which still allows for attacking structures and lifeforms but makes blindly spamming grenades less effective.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2014
I think GL can and will continue to be a pain on some borderline cases, because of the minimum "no detonation on impact" distance.
The "minimum range" is suppose to be a drawback, but aliens who are just outside of it are hit the hardest, and have no time to react, while the marine firing the grenade takes almost no self-damage. So many times I have been trying to hug GL JP marines as Lerk, only to take a grenade in the face.
I'd rather GL damage be reduced (ideally changed to StructuralHeavy type, so the marine is likely to suffer more armor damage), but allow grenades to detonate on impact at close range again.
When I'm flying/blinking down the hallway, away from the marines, I will now totally be able to dodge these clearly visible grenades.
I did mention somewhere that I think the projectile speed is due to a re-nerf now that the collision is much better, so hitting your buddies in the back of the head shouldnt be an issue anymore. It'd also increase the level of prediction you need to hit life forms so direct hits would hopefully happen less often (and feel hella more skillful when you land them).
The changes to visibility as seen above shouldnt affect you dodging individual nades as you rightly reference in your post, but it will now be much clearer-
a) where the grenadier is firing, giving you the chance to avoid that general area
b) if there are recently-fired rounds laying on the floor near your escape path, they'll also be more obvious
Since this is about a discussion about explosives, I think the pulse grenade could use a bit of a buff.
The thing that should make you sometimes want a pulse grenade more than the raw damage of the cluster grenade or the lots of are armor damage nerve gas is so that it slows down lifeform attack speed. This isnt very usefull as useally as a lifeform you space out your attacks, so that when you bite or something it hits the marine instead of biting as much as possible which can get the timing wrong.
The only time you would useally be biting as fast as possible is when your biting on a structure, however it would save alot more of the structures health to just spam the pistol into him or use a cluster to kill him outright, rather then taking away a chunk of his health with the pulse and unless the structures almost gone he likely would just run away and hide to bite the rt again.
The Only bonus I know of for the pulse is that all the damage is there outright unlike how the cluster has a small explosion and then a lot more over an area.
I think instead of draining attack speed, it should cause a drain to the aliens energy kind of like the flame thrower does but maybe a bit more intense. Another idea Is that it could do damage over time, but I like a energy drain more. I think with an energy drain it would be very usefull against lifeforms like fade as they use energy so much.
@AnkleBitingKitty
They're anti-anti-structure weapons;
If you're a rightly vigilant marine, you'll be able to spot gorge/onos rushes in pubs a mile off. Chuck a pulse grenade at 'em to ruin their DPS and give your team time to respond before the power/etc goes down. Onos and gorge most affected by this (pulsed onos cant... kill... A3... marines... fast enoughhh)
I'm sure I heard mumurs somewhere in the forums of the possibility of a revision of pulse grenades not long ago though, so who knows @_@
Comments
Hmm not really, the reload time on GL is too long even for 1 grenade. In fact firing once and reloading takes so much time that it cant really be used in close combat ( vs fades and lerks ). It will effectively reduce the dps of GLs while increasing the chance of having a hit with manual detonation, if you have the timing/aim.
Placing all 4 nades and then reloading to detonate all 4 of them can be too strong (especially if aliens cant see them in AV).
Ok, so the 'remote detonation' solution as compares to the 'detonate only on hit solution' -
RD -
- lower player damage
- Broadens the scope of projectile detonation scenarios (this is a buff)
- encourages spam and liberal scattering of explosions that the player can control the timing of
DOOH -
- lower player damage
- narrows the scope of projectile detonation scenarios (this is a nerf, but a very purposeful nerf)
- encourages skillful, intelligent play with the GL
I'm not sure why I'm even comparing the two.
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to be able to make my GL-that-didnt-hit-anything still explode at the exact perfect timing to chip the last bit of health off of a fleeing fade, but something tells me that is the exact antithesis of what people (seem to) want from the GL. It'd be fun, but that kind of mechanic just does not fit well into this game.
Grenade launchers used to be the cheapest marine weapon at 15 pres.
Their cost has been increased by 5 so that they now cost 20pres (i.e. on the same level as the shotgun).
5/15 equals 1/3 equals a whopping 33% price increase, because you got to take the old price as your base, not the new value.
In my opinion the GL is a costly weapon to use+lose now. And it will take quite a while until you can afford a new one.
Morale:
Don't play on 24+ slot servers.
(because it's fucking hard to miss if there are 15 skulks piled up in a tiny room)
[/quote]
Mines are lit up and stationary... if you have more issues with mines over nades... idk what to tell you. Avoid mines? Play against more glers?
[/quote]
Mines are always there until they detonate, and will always blow up if you get too close, with Gls you have to be in the explosion when it detonates. Even though mines get the orange outline thingy as well sometimes they can be placed in tricky places like the exits of vents where you cant see them, also sometimes you don't notice them until its too late.
Just my opinion
Well that's the skill associated with mines, isn't it?
Why would this reduce frustration? Well, being hit by something you can't dodge is one thing- happens all the time.
Getting hit by something you cant even see to attempt to dodge?
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Don't travel down this road, my friend; soon you will ask yourself: Why don't we just ARC the Kharaa from orbit/the room next to their hive that has all doors closed? Why is the commander even on the ground? Why is it necessary for marines to research the same tech over and over again, with resources extracted on the battlefield?
Doesn't everyone want to explode out of their tube?
Good players can identify when nades are launched anyway but it just helps a bit for lower players who aren't able to discern them and helps eliminate any confusion as to where nades are going and come from, helping players identify windows of opportunity to attack, punishing reckless GL play.
I'd say when I personally die to grenades its typically 70% pure dumb luck and not my fault, and it's incredibly frustrating when it's unavoidable.
I.e. Quietly Flying around a corner into a projectile, first volley of an unrealistic physics bounce around a corner and right into my feet, or again the glitchy physics allow for detonation at melee range despite me intentionally closing the gap to negate the minimum distance primer. (usually a brief delay occurs as the projectile freezes in air)
I don't care about the times when I die to GLs that I know are incoming or being spammed.
I don't care about skilled shots that connect (typically i congratulate people)
I care about the unavoidable, unintentional, unskilled deaths that lead to my frustration.. which are way more frequent than they should be (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I'd sooner have the GL projectile outlined and seen through walls than take aware the benefits of GL spam (suppression, attention grabbing, broad AOE damage) so that I could never say it was "unavoidable" again. Oh and fix the melee detonation issues.
Edit: I posted this before seeing your table flipping emote AND that you agreed with outlining. >.>
Also.. to all that suggest controlled detonation : We tried it when the dedicated GL was first tested internally.. It was grossly OP
I've mentioned before that increasing nade projectile speed would be a nice counter-buff to the player damage nerf, giving you more control over where the nades can land, not an enormous change but enough to give players a degree of control instead of most players just spamming them hoping they hit something.
Well that's the skill associated with mines, isn't it?[/quote]
Well of course there skill with as far as I can tell everything in this game, but even though grenade launchers are pretty easy to use effectively they still take more skill than noticing that aliens are using/likely will use a vent and walking up to it and placing a mine right near the exit.
Edit - I don't think they should be seen through walls, @ironhorse . Idk if you really meant that or not. Unless someone parasites the nade in mid-air lol
In the situation where a Marine Remote GL is versus a full health alien, there's no more impact detonation, so again, less need to spam. Only skilled remote detonation allowing for similar close-range weakness and self-FF danger.
With this, maybe we'll see GL's showing up more often being used more tactically and less dumb luck spam. Maybe this might pull some of the spotlight from a Shotgun for use in base assaults.
Thoughts? I'm kind of liking where this is headed.
Afaik the GL already hurts lifeforms that are low on health the most (via splash damage). So we don't really want to reinforce that.
It also doesn't really serve the GL's purpose as anti-structure weapon. Of course, if we want to change the purpose, fine - but that's a whole new matter.
I liked meat's approach better
Honestly I feel this makes the situation even worse. Gls are supposed to be for attacking structures, and while they are annoying for grenade spam taking out skulks and that, this would make it a complete destroyer of lifeforms.
With a normal Gl, even if your spamming it as fast as possible it fires at detonates at a rythmic pace
Thunk thunk thunk thunk, pause, Boom boom boom boom. This would allow you to detonate all four at once. Getting hit by one gl is already massive damage. 4x that would be rediculous. You place 4 next to the door, a lerk is flying in through the door to go bite some marines and KABOOM lerk guts all over the place. Sure, if you miss then you have to reload again you cant shoot him out of the air due to the no detonation on hit, but still to have the potential to due so actually with just some good reactions would be crazy.
Although the problem is is that then its pretty bad at doing anything else but extremley frustrating unfair kills. you cant really get direct hits to damage sctructures as they just bounce so much and you have to get them somehow right next to the structure, making jp gl rushes pretty much ineffective, and also you cant do crap to defend you self against an upgraded skulk with leap even with a jp, That costs the same amount as SG jp, you should be able to fight lifeforms some with that much res.
So in conclusion you end up with a weapon that is very bad at fighting structures (The intended purpose of the gl) and lifeforms and really all it can do is painfully unfair and rediculous kills.
In my opinion, grenade launchers could be more balanced by making the blast radius smaller, which still allows for attacking structures and lifeforms but makes blindly spamming grenades less effective.
The "minimum range" is suppose to be a drawback, but aliens who are just outside of it are hit the hardest, and have no time to react, while the marine firing the grenade takes almost no self-damage. So many times I have been trying to hug GL JP marines as Lerk, only to take a grenade in the face.
I'd rather GL damage be reduced (ideally changed to StructuralHeavy type, so the marine is likely to suffer more armor damage), but allow grenades to detonate on impact at close range again.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice this and link it in here.
https://trello.com/c/DJnlDPE6/603-increase-visual-scale-of-the-gl-rounds-and-add-make-it-highlighted-in-av
The changes to visibility as seen above shouldnt affect you dodging individual nades as you rightly reference in your post, but it will now be much clearer-
a) where the grenadier is firing, giving you the chance to avoid that general area
b) if there are recently-fired rounds laying on the floor near your escape path, they'll also be more obvious
The thing that should make you sometimes want a pulse grenade more than the raw damage of the cluster grenade or the lots of are armor damage nerve gas is so that it slows down lifeform attack speed. This isnt very usefull as useally as a lifeform you space out your attacks, so that when you bite or something it hits the marine instead of biting as much as possible which can get the timing wrong.
The only time you would useally be biting as fast as possible is when your biting on a structure, however it would save alot more of the structures health to just spam the pistol into him or use a cluster to kill him outright, rather then taking away a chunk of his health with the pulse and unless the structures almost gone he likely would just run away and hide to bite the rt again.
The Only bonus I know of for the pulse is that all the damage is there outright unlike how the cluster has a small explosion and then a lot more over an area.
I think instead of draining attack speed, it should cause a drain to the aliens energy kind of like the flame thrower does but maybe a bit more intense. Another idea Is that it could do damage over time, but I like a energy drain more. I think with an energy drain it would be very usefull against lifeforms like fade as they use energy so much.
They're anti-anti-structure weapons;
If you're a rightly vigilant marine, you'll be able to spot gorge/onos rushes in pubs a mile off. Chuck a pulse grenade at 'em to ruin their DPS and give your team time to respond before the power/etc goes down. Onos and gorge most affected by this (pulsed onos cant... kill... A3... marines... fast enoughhh)
I'm sure I heard mumurs somewhere in the forums of the possibility of a revision of pulse grenades not long ago though, so who knows @_@