You cannot possible be so naive as to believe that the critic against NS2:Combat is because we're internet boogie men trolls.
>"Because harming a new indie studio just out of the reason that they don't offer you their work of over 1 year work for free is imho disrespectful against all kind of indie developers."
If my opinions on your product is "harming your indie studio" then you have no place on a commercial market.
>"And this all reflects in a really bad way on us all as community!!!"
None of us can speak on the behalf of an entire community, we're not a single entity.
I have not purchased combat because I dislike the team death match type of game play.
If I wanted to play combat, i can do so within NS2.
I have not purchased combat because I dislike the team death match type of game play.
If I wanted to play combat, i can do so within NS2.
Just picking this out, having played ns2:c I would never go back and play combat mod. I never really liked it to begin with. They play differently and ns2:c is far superior. I genuinly enjoy ns2:c.
Not that you would like it runki, it still is a team deathmatch.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
I would say not only FLG/combat. In fact they spoil everything they touch IMO. Including NS2. I've seen kids better than 'em. Sad to see some of them are supposed to be adults (legal age). But hey, what to expect from them ?
For one time we have a game that can live on it's creative community (editor, moding possibility, etc). Sad to see it brought some of the worst. I'm in fact surprised. Some of these so called "Elite" are despicable to say the least.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
I agree with everything except this. It doesn't matter if FLG is 2 days old or 5 years old, if the product isn't up to scratch people are going to complain about it, not buy it, tell other people to not buy it etc. A world where no matter the quality of the game people buy it and give nothing but good praise because they are "an indie dev company trying to get on their feet" is a fantasy. So many game companies are born and die and are born again, some are successful, some aren't, its competitive market out there.
Also, you can't put blame on members of the NS2 community for being upset or disappointed about combat and frankly I am surprised to see a UWE dev stoop to that level of other members on here that have blaming other people for attacking FLG like the thread OP. Even doing that is a petty argument because most of the negative feedback isn't even coming from here, most of it is from the public which is totally understandable.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
I would say not only FLG/combat. In fact they spoil everything they touch IMO. Including NS2. I've seen kids better than 'em. Sad to see some of them are supposed to be adults (legal age). But hey, what to expect from them ?
For one time we have a game that can live on it's creative community (editor, moding possibility, etc). Sad to see it brought some of the worst. I'm in fact surprised. Some of these so called "Elite" are despicable to say the least.
Holy... Dude, I don't know about you but I've had nothing but a great 2 years with this community. I honestly don't know how else to respond to you.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
I agree with everything except this. It doesn't matter if FLG is 2 days old or 5 years old, if the product isn't up to scratch people are going to complain about it, not buy it, tell other people to not buy it etc. A world where no matter the quality of the game people buy it and give nothing but good praise because they are "an indie dev company trying to get on their feet" is a fantasy. So many game companies are born and die and are born again, some are successful, some aren't, its competitive market out there.
Also, you can't put blame on members of the NS2 community for being upset or disappointed about combat and frankly I am surprised to see a UWE dev stoop to that level of other members on here that have blaming other people for attacking FLG like the thread OP. Even doing that is a petty argument because most of the negative feedback isn't even coming from here, most of it is from the public which is totally understandable.
Oh come now, that is is not the entire situation at all. Of course if people have bought, played and truly dislike the game, they are more then entitled to their opinions. I am certainly not referring to that, I am referring to all the reviews and comments from people who haven't even played Combat, who are holding a grudge because they feel the game should have been given away for free to them, or should have been DLC instead of a stand alone game, or just generally like to leap at any opportunity to bash on UWE / NS2/ or anything related to those things. I'm not saying it's a majority of community members by any means, but it is a vocal enough group that it can be quite damaging to a small indie company trying to get their start.
that's just an ad hominem attack on the person rather than on the points of discussion.
I'm fine with that too. So you paid nothing for the game, I'm guessing as a key give-away, then continue to discourage hundreds if not many thousands of people who read your review from purchasing it. If you enjoy the game enough to keep playing it AFTER posting your review and not recommending others to, then what is the real reason you gave it the review you did? Couldn't just not say anything? You enjoy the game, yet say don't buy. Seems to me like the only remaining reason is some kind of grudge or something... so I might say your not recommending is ad hominem as well.
that's just an ad hominem attack on the person rather than on the points of discussion.
I'm fine with that too. So you paid nothing for the game, I'm guessing as a key give-away, then continue to discourage hundreds if not many thousands of people who read your review from purchasing it. If you enjoy the game enough to keep playing it AFTER posting your review and not recommending others to, then what is the real reason you gave it the review you did? Couldn't just not say anything? You enjoy the game, yet say don't buy. Seems to me like the only remaining reason is some kind of grudge or something... so I might say your not recommending is ad hominem as well.
10/10 you're a champion of a human being.
I sincerely hope someone comes along to take a piss on your accomplishments some day. Sincerely.
I just read gimmic's review. Quite frankly, I think it was very honest. He doesn't hide away the fact that he enjoys the game. He's not shitting on the game at all. He just simply can't recommend the game.
I really enjoy playing AvP, UT3 and Quake 4. But I couldn't in good conscience recommend any of those either.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
I was brought on to do some last minute PR & Marketing (1month prior to release). (I have 0$ to do this.)
My experience has been as follows:
I have had several NS2 players, follow me around on reddit, social media sites (such as twitter, facebook and forums) 24/7 downvoting and reporting all my efforts as spam.
I gotten replys from gaming press, that they have been contacted by the NS2 community (even before i send em review keys) - Telling em FLG have stolen NS2 code, and that we are thiefs, and they where treathened by association with the resent gamepress scandals, but also email spam and even in one case a DDoS attack. (From NS2 players that had yet to even play the game).
A common theme on almost all promotional content, have been:
1. "This is a mod, do not buy!"
2. "Why isnt this free?!?"
and
3. "Why isnt it a 5$ DLC."
The short and the long story of it all, is that around 100 dissatified NS2 players, have succesfully made the launch far worse than expected.
I am but 1 guy, and while i have worked a average of 15hours each day, all days including weekends, i had no chance in hell to "fight off" 100 angry people, that wanted the game for free. And have actively sabotaged almost all PR and marketing efforts made not only by me, but also reviewers, youtubers and streamers.
@SantaClaws is the only reason then that he can't recommend it because he owns ns2? From what I read, that's about what it comes down to. That's where my issue is.
So many potential new players are turned away by "not reccomended" from ns2 vets. frankly, that's bull shit. If you got the game for free and are enjoying it enough to play 34 hrs in under 2 weeks, then SHUT THE FUCK UP with your not recommended bullshit. You're pissing on people who don't deserve to be pissed on.
He even admits he knows that if they sell for too little, they're in trouble, and if they don't, they're in trouble. He says "making us buy ns2 again" when he didnt even buy the fkng game. He fails to mention that in his review.
Over 220 products in his library. 9 he has reviews on. Why does this 1/228 have to go out of it's way to not recommend a game that he KNOWS is from a deserving and hard working company, knows the cost must be what it is, and GOT FOR FREE. If anything all these vets should have just not said anything at all.
It's just low and comes off as begrudged (can be read as butthurt).
I was brought on to do some last minute PR & Marketing (1month prior to release). (I have 0$ to do this.)
My experience has been as follows:
I have had several NS2 players, follow me around on reddit, social media sites (such as twitter, facebook and forums) 24/7 downvoting and reporting all my efforts as spam.
I gotten replys from gaming press, that they have been contacted by the NS2 community (even before i send em review keys) - Telling em FLG have stolen NS2 code, and that we are thiefs, and they where treathened by association with the resent gamepress scandals, but also email spam and even in one case a DDoS attack. (From NS2 players that had yet to even play the game).
A common theme on almost all promotional content, have been:
1. "This is a mod, do not buy!"
2. "Why isnt this free?!?"
and
3. "Why isnt it a 5$ DLC."
The short and the long story of it all, is that around 100 dissatified NS2 players, have succesfully made the launch far worse than expected.
I am but 1 guy, and while i have worked a average of 15hours each day, all days including weekends, i had no chance in hell to "fight off" 100 angry people, that wanted the game for free. And have actively sabotaged almost all PR and marketing efforts made not only by me, but also reviewers, youtubers and streamers.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
Oh come now, that is is not the entire situation at all. Of course if people have bought, played and truly dislike the game, they are more then entitled to their opinions. I am certainly not referring to that, I am referring to all the reviews and comments from people who haven't even played Combat, who are holding a grudge because they feel the game should have been given away for free to them, or should have been DLC instead of a stand alone game, or just generally like to leap at any opportunity to bash on UWE / NS2/ or anything related to those things. I'm not saying it's a majority of community members by any means, but it is a vocal enough group that it can be quite damaging to a small indie company trying to get their start.
To play devil's advocate here, I think it's entirely fair to give a game a negative review because you think it isn't worth its price. If you don't think a game is providing enough content to justify the money they're asking for it, that's as good a reason as any to give it a bad score. And for what it's worth nobody giving the game a bad score hasn't played the game, since Steam only lets you review games if you have played them (although some people are giving bad scores with like 20 minutes which is obviously ridiculous.)
And to dismiss someone's complaints as "just someone who likes to bash UWE" is to turn a blind eye towards criticism... If people have legitimate issues with how a company operates it might be better to take their words into consideration rather than just saying "haters gonna hate" as though what they're saying is meaningless...
(please note I am not one of the people who shares this mindset, I'm very happy with my $15 Combat purchase. I just don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's criticism as being worthless just because they aren't happy with you)
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
The irony hurts even more since UWE is the publisher and every sale lost by this, is actualy hurting UWEs wallets aswell.
My best gues is that atleast 90% of the negative reviews on the steam store, is from NS2 players that want the game for free, or as a 5$ DLC.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
The irony hurts even more since UWE is the publisher and every sale lost by this, is actualy hurting UWEs wallets aswell.
My best gues is that atleast 90% of the negative reviews on the steam store, is from NS2 players that want the game for free, or as a 5$ DLC.
I was referring to the people who followed you and took the time to fuck the game over (who has the time and hate for that?). Uwe may not get as much money out of this game as expected - but that is side cash for uwe; flg loses more and they have their name on it. Basically, uwe took little DMG on a gamble poorly thought out and, sadly, this gamble only hurt flg.
I don't feel so bad about uwe's 'wallet', because they have a few revenues of income and have had years to plan. I've always felt they milked the "we are indie, plz halp us" for far too long.
Anyway, purposefully trying to ruin a game's launch with over-the-top bs is pathetic and sad. Legitimate negative reviews are fine; they have no bais behind them.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
The thing is, it's not just "Lol the internet"... this is lives and livelihoods being impacted by people on crusades of entitlement, ego, and hive-mindedness. Some would say "don't take it seriously or to heart", but try being the target of something like this and you'll soon realize even those with the toughest skins will eventually start to crack.
The internet (and life, in part because of the constant connection *to* the internet) is perpetual high school these days, and the ones with the biggest sway and loudest, most polarizing voices use their influence to crush others for kicks and their own ego boost. The masses follow or turn a blind eye because they don't want to be the next target (and justify it because "it's just the internet"), while those willing to stick their necks out by being logical and objective are pounded on relentlessly until they give up or join the horde.
Being at the mercy of a crusade of abusive negativity is horrible, and because of the internet will follow you around for a very long time, bleeding into all aspects of life.
You couldn't pay me to be a creator of anything requiring the public to succeed. I have only respect for those that keep doing it time and time again.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
The thing is, it's not just "Lol the internet"... this is lives and livelihoods being impacted by people on crusades of entitlement, ego, and hive-mindedness. Some would say "don't take it seriously or to heart", but try being the target of something like this and you'll soon realize even those with the toughest skins will eventually start to crack.
The internet (and life, in part because of the constant connection *to* the internet) is perpetual high school these days, and the ones with the biggest sway and loudest, most polarizing voices use their influence to crush others for kicks and their own ego boost. The masses follow or turn a blind eye because they don't want to be the next target (and justify it because "it's just the internet"), while those willing to stick their necks out by being logical and objective are pounded on relentlessly until they give up or join the horde.
Being at the mercy of a crusade of abusive negativity is horrible, and because of the internet will follow you around for a very long time, bleeding into all aspects of life.
You couldn't pay me to be a creator of anything requiring the public to succeed. I have only respect for those that keep doing it time and time again.
I am certainly not referring to that, I am referring to all the reviews and comments from people who haven't even played Combat, who are holding a grudge because they feel the game should have been given away for free to them, or should have been DLC instead of a stand alone game, or just generally like to leap at any opportunity to bash on UWE / NS2/ or anything related to those things.
I dont remember if this already asked, but why not standalone DLC or Expansion / add on? I play combat once for a while, because public is boring like no good servers online yet
Oh come now, that is not the entire situation at all. Of course if people have bought, played and truly dislike the game, they are more then entitled to their opinions. I am certainly not referring to that, I am referring to all the reviews and comments from people who haven't even played Combat, who are holding a grudge because they feel the game should have been given away for free to them, or should have been DLC instead of a standalone game, or just generally like to leap at any opportunity to bash on UWE / NS2/ or anything related to those things. I'm not saying it's a majority of community members by any means, but it is a vocal enough group that it can be quite damaging to a small indie company trying to get their start.
Firstly, just want to say thank you for taking the time to post your measured replies Corey. We know you are busy and don’t really have time to get involved in these discussions, so it’s much appreciated that you have taken the time to do so. Bar a few comments by a minority of people, I think you will find that most of what is left of the community are very committed to the longevity of the NS franchise, and appreciate the work that UWE, the CDT, and FLG have done towards doing so.
But there comes a point where reality sets in and the facts must be faced. Combat was always going to have a turbulent release – surely you guys must have foreseen this going in. All the early warning signs were there – I mentioned a few of the concerns members from my community had a week before it released, as at the time there was very little info surrounding the game. I made that thread in the hope that FLG were aware of these issues and could work towards addressing them, because I knew that many of them would hinder the success of combat sales.
I was brought on to do some last minute PR & Marketing (1month prior to release). (I have 0$ to do this.)
The short and the long story of it all, is that around 100 dissatified NS2 players, have succesfully made the launch far worse than expected.
I am but 1 guy, and while i have worked a average of 15hours each day, all days including weekends, i had no chance in hell to "fight off" 100 angry people, that wanted the game for free. And have actively sabotaged almost all PR and marketing efforts made not only by me, but also reviewers, youtubers and streamers.
C’mon dude, the words of 100 people on the internet in a forum and or reddit thread cannot be considered as a legitimate reason for hindered sales. I can’t speak for the behavior of these people - if what you say they did is true then of course that’s obviously horrible behavior. But as fickle and nasty as some people might be, at the end of the day people vote with their wallets – the majority of potential sale targets out there will not have read the reddit or the forums. And even if they did, the problem many of these people had were with the price of the game or some reason similar to that, and not the game itself.
I’m afraid the bigger problem here, in my opinion, is that of FLG’s/UWE’s business model. I know you guys were just trying to give FLG a chance to find their feet and get off the ground with combat, but at the end of the day you are selling a product - which is of course is made with love and hard work, but it is a product and has to be treated as such. Marketing a product properly plays a crucial role in its success, regardless of whether you are an indie start up, arts organization, or corporation. You don’t need bags of money or a call of duty budget to have a successful marketing strategy/product launch, but you do need to have a well thought-out business plan.
Combat was unfortunate in the sense that it was a game based upon an established franchise, which has the majority of its assets in common with a previous product that was only launched 2 years ago. To make matters worse, the primary customers were ones that may have already played the game mode as a mod in NS2 already, meaning that the product may not have appeared as fresh and pioneering as originally intended. Since you were unable to market to new customers outside the established community already, then unfortunately these were the cards that you dealt and have to work with accordingly.
The irony hurts even more since UWE is the publisher and every sale lost by this, is actualy hurting UWEs wallets aswell.
My best gues is that atleast 90% of the negative reviews on the steam store, is from NS2 players that want the game for free, or as a 5$ DLC.
Again - surely this shouldn't be surpring to you? FLG’s whole marketing strategy for this game, in your own words, was to use word of mouth, third party reviewers like total biscuit (who will always been subjective) and social media to promote combat. As you guys had no budget for anything else, that means essentially the only people being reached by these type of campaigns are predominantly people who own NS2. It should not be at all surprising that these people would be vocal or object to various elements of combat. Also, as far as I can see on the steam store, the majority of reviews are actually positive (57), with only 16 negative (see below), meaning the positive far outweighs the negative. Using that as a reason for slow sales doesn’t stack up unfortunately.
I don’t condone people this ddosing nonsense or people saying that FLG’s posts are spam etc. That’s childish behaviour, and unacceptable. What is acceptable and normal is that some people would have an issue with combat being standalone. There were always going to be questions about the price too. Perhaps some went overboard when voicing their opinions. Thankfully, they are in the minority.
Down the line when you look back at combat though and look at overall sales, please consider that not everyone in the community was actively trying to undermine the game or FLG. This is a very passionate little community, and I’m sure most of them want to see the NS franchise continue to grow and prosper.
I know it’s also easy to get worked up reading many of these comments – but please keep in mind that there are those of us in the community who just want to make NS more successful than it is, and will always be commenting and questioning along the way to stimulate discussion and debate. Not all people on these forums are faceless trolls either – many of us have full time jobs like you guys and can appreciate how hard it can be. Hopefully the outcome of discussions, like this one, can be beneficial for all parties involved moving forward.
PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
I always wait for these moments, when Bonage is going to post a message that deserves every time many awesomes and agrees. But more seriously, he has definitely right.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
Maybe because they fear NS2 would die over Combat. It's not the same issue as NS1. When combat took over NS1 it was because NS1 was completely abandoned due to many HL1 factors / weakness. Here it can end up the same but for some of the same and other reasons as well. The ironic part is : it probably is some vets that are also killing NS2 with their online behavior.
To play devil's advocate here, I think it's entirely fair to give a game a negative review because you think it isn't worth its price. If you don't think a game is providing enough content to justify the money they're asking for it, that's as good a reason as any to give it a bad score. And for what it's worth nobody giving the game a bad score hasn't played the game, since Steam only lets you review games if you have played them (although some people are giving bad scores with like 20 minutes which is obviously ridiculous.)
And to dismiss someone's complaints as "just someone who likes to bash UWE" is to turn a blind eye towards criticism... If people have legitimate issues with how a company operates it might be better to take their words into consideration rather than just saying "haters gonna hate" as though what they're saying is meaningless...
(please note I am not one of the people who shares this mindset, I'm very happy with my $15 Combat purchase. I just don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's criticism as being worthless just because they aren't happy with you)
Having an opinion is okay. Spreading bullsh!t is another matter. Steam isn't the only stream. Online press, forums etc, are other vectors as well.
Run a company, you'll see that pricing is somehow an issue with an indie studio. The so called DLC price is something that can be done by the big heads in the market (EA, UBI, etc). They can afford it. Other than that. Any company is endangering itself doing this (low price). especially these days. As you said if the price isn't considered ok by the potential buyer he can leave it like that. But that's not what happened (I have no interest in UWE or FLG companies).
C’mon dude, the words of 100 people on the internet in a forum and or reddit thread cannot be considered as a legitimate reason for hindered sales. I can’t speak for the behavior of these people - if what you say they did is true then of course that’s obviously horrible behavior.
Negative reviews have always a bigger impact than positive. No matter what. That's why so many companies invest huge pile of money (not only game industry) in communication. For some it's wrong (i wouldn't drink a Coke as it is toxic) but for some other it's the only way to make their product rise above the sea level.
bonage, I think you may be underestimating the laziness of your average consumer and the impact a few vocal people can have. At most, people (not everyone, but a very large number) will take a quick glance at Steam/etc. reviews, barely read them, and just go off of the numbers alone (this is where a top ranked negative or 'joke' review can really hurt a game). You also have folks that only listen to one "celebrity" reviewer or outlet, and if they crap all over it their sheep audience will as well (and more aggressively in conversation, since they have to defend their idol's opinion for some reason). The more vitriolic the reviewer, the more "entertaining" they are... which brings in a large audience of venomous people that find that kind of behavior funny and emulate it.
There's a weird ripple effect that occurs in these kinds of situations. A single entity with some amount of celebrity can say something negative about something else. Their followers will believe it and regurgitate it. Others, who are just as unwilling to find out for themselves and need to latch onto someone else's opinion, will continue the regurgitation even though by that point it's so far from a first hand account it may as well be a complete fabrication (and often is). On and on the effect occurs, until completely incorrect or bias things are well "known" as fact.
The whole celebrity thing doesn't even need to be a person. If a popular area (say, a subreddit) is overwhelmingly negative, it is assumed to be truth (even though ultimately reviews are *opinion*, not fact). The vast majority of any website populace is lurkers, not posters, and very often the lurkers will simply adopt the opinion of the few that are vocal.
So yes, 100+ vocal people can absolutely make a massive difference, and they do... constantly.
Yes, people 'vote with their wallet'... but how their vote is influenced is what is important to remember. Like actual elections, your average person doesn't have a clue and is just "voting" based on whatever they hear. It's the few vocal people out there that can make or break anything... and unfortunately the trend right now is that breaking is funny and 'deserved' (due to the inflated sense of entitlement so popular at the moment).
There's a feeling from some existing NS2 players that NS2:C is a cash-grab and required zero effort and it should be free/cheaper. This has generated some fairly pessimistic vibes even pre-release and I would bet that a lot of the naysayers have not even played the original NS2 mod and had no intention of playing NS2:C. As sickboy said, people form their opinions fairly quickly from what they 'hear'.
I'm not saying this is the only reason that the game hasn't taken off, but it certainly wouldn't have helped.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
Maybe because they fear NS2 would die over Combat. It's not the same issue as NS1. When combat took over NS1 it was because NS1 was completely abandoned due to many HL1 factors / weakness. Here it can end up the same but for some of the same and other reasons as well. The ironic part is : it probably is some vets that are also killing NS2 with their online behavior.
Yes, I also think that it can be a somesort of defensive stance to protect NS2 by attacking Combat. Many vets are still remember the time when Combat finished true NS mode. It is very interesting psychology, someone can write a dissertation on this ))))
I was brought on to do some last minute PR & Marketing (1month prior to release). (I have 0$ to do this.)
My experience has been as follows:
I have had several NS2 players, follow me around on reddit, social media sites (such as twitter, facebook and forums) 24/7 downvoting and reporting all my efforts as spam.
I gotten replys from gaming press, that they have been contacted by the NS2 community (even before i send em review keys) - Telling em FLG have stolen NS2 code, and that we are thiefs, and they where treathened by association with the resent gamepress scandals, but also email spam and even in one case a DDoS attack. (From NS2 players that had yet to even play the game).
A common theme on almost all promotional content, have been:
1. "This is a mod, do not buy!"
2. "Why isnt this free?!?"
and
3. "Why isnt it a 5$ DLC."
The short and the long story of it all, is that around 100 dissatified NS2 players, have succesfully made the launch far worse than expected.
I am but 1 guy, and while i have worked a average of 15hours each day, all days including weekends, i had no chance in hell to "fight off" 100 angry people, that wanted the game for free. And have actively sabotaged almost all PR and marketing efforts made not only by me, but also reviewers, youtubers and streamers.
Lol wow. Why would people actively and purposefully hurt the game by doing that shit? I thought people had just been giving bad feedback, not people saying there was theft. Lol the internet....
Some people are just insane, have a lot of time on thier hands and nothing better to do.
We can all argue for hours if it should have been cheaper or a dlc. I see no point in that, the moment has passed because it is released as standalone.
We can argue all we want about promotional ways of FLG.. again rather pointless, the moment has passed.. it is released.
We can argue all we want about the 'players' who spend hours following persons like gisp around to nonstop downvote. I am not confident it will give any results to argue about them.
What we can do is accepting SA Combat as is, and deciding for ourselves if its worth it to buy as a standalone game.
Many will decide no, fair enough.
Others will decide yes, also fair.
I would argue that saying "I wont buy as it should be a dlc" is a wrong reason. Thats just spite, thinking you are entitled to something due to your own views.
If you think you should not buy it "because the gameplay and what the game offers isn't worth the price" I will not disagree, that's everyone's own opinion. That would indicate you actually REALLY thought about what the game would offer.
As for myself.
I got the game, I bought it. I did this after watching streams of the gameplay. Sadly the streams did not shows 2 'details' which in hindsight would have significantly altered my choice. (server stability & servers, and the marine starting weapon atm being near silent)
If I had known these 2 things I would never have considered to get the game. Every time I play SA Combat I experience no fun and stress due to these 'reasons'.
Would I play the game again, if these 2 things are fixed? Probably. (Im even thinking of seeing if I can make a soundmod, I saw client side sounds should technicly be outside consistency check)
TotalBiscuit brings up in the first 2 minutes of his video the issue of Combat being a standalone game, how you don't get it for free or discounted if you own NS2, etc and how it will be a "sticking point" for this game. Also, go to 16:45 and 20:55 in the above video and he talks specifically about the value perception of Combat, where I think FLG failed in convincing the current NS2 player why they should buy NS2: Combat. The NS2 player could have been their strongest word of mouth advocate, and instead they have turned it into a source of negativity.
The fact that GISP and Cory are coming on here and outright blaming people who own NS2 for hurting the game because of valid criticism is just downright sickening. If Combat did a well enough job of differentiating itself from NS2, there would not be this outcry. Furthermore, if Combat didn't still have all the issues that NS2 has (huge learning curve, large skill gaps, no tutorial, etc; all things TB brought up in his video btw), then maybe it could stand on its own 2 feet better. TB sounds like he'd rather be getting a colonoscopy than playing NS2: Combat during that video. It just doesn't look fun, and (I'm sorry FLG) it mimics my experience when playing the game.
I am just sick of reading all the blame being passed off. It's time to own your late/nonexistent marketing and advertising, flaws in the game, etc. NS2: Combat isn't selling because of some specific reviews on Steam. It's not selling because frankly its a mod of an already niche unpopular game with a high learning curve that still isn't that fun for the causal gamer.
A word of advice FLG: you should be addressing why TB has such an awful time playing your game and try to fix that, rather than spending time making these threads blaming others.
Comments
@CoryStrader you make me laugh.
Reserved......
Upcoming Post....
>"Because harming a new indie studio just out of the reason that they don't offer you their work of over 1 year work for free is imho disrespectful against all kind of indie developers."
If my opinions on your product is "harming your indie studio" then you have no place on a commercial market.
>"And this all reflects in a really bad way on us all as community!!!"
None of us can speak on the behalf of an entire community, we're not a single entity.
I have not purchased combat because I dislike the team death match type of game play.
If I wanted to play combat, i can do so within NS2.
Just picking this out, having played ns2:c I would never go back and play combat mod. I never really liked it to begin with. They play differently and ns2:c is far superior. I genuinly enjoy ns2:c.
Not that you would like it runki, it still is a team deathmatch.
I would say not only FLG/combat. In fact they spoil everything they touch IMO. Including NS2. I've seen kids better than 'em. Sad to see some of them are supposed to be adults (legal age). But hey, what to expect from them ?
For one time we have a game that can live on it's creative community (editor, moding possibility, etc). Sad to see it brought some of the worst. I'm in fact surprised. Some of these so called "Elite" are despicable to say the least.
I agree with everything except this. It doesn't matter if FLG is 2 days old or 5 years old, if the product isn't up to scratch people are going to complain about it, not buy it, tell other people to not buy it etc. A world where no matter the quality of the game people buy it and give nothing but good praise because they are "an indie dev company trying to get on their feet" is a fantasy. So many game companies are born and die and are born again, some are successful, some aren't, its competitive market out there.
Also, you can't put blame on members of the NS2 community for being upset or disappointed about combat and frankly I am surprised to see a UWE dev stoop to that level of other members on here that have blaming other people for attacking FLG like the thread OP. Even doing that is a petty argument because most of the negative feedback isn't even coming from here, most of it is from the public which is totally understandable.
Holy... Dude, I don't know about you but I've had nothing but a great 2 years with this community. I honestly don't know how else to respond to you.
I'm fine with that too. So you paid nothing for the game, I'm guessing as a key give-away, then continue to discourage hundreds if not many thousands of people who read your review from purchasing it. If you enjoy the game enough to keep playing it AFTER posting your review and not recommending others to, then what is the real reason you gave it the review you did? Couldn't just not say anything? You enjoy the game, yet say don't buy. Seems to me like the only remaining reason is some kind of grudge or something... so I might say your not recommending is ad hominem as well.
10/10 you're a champion of a human being.
Self edit... sincere sentiment but harsh...
I just read gimmic's review. Quite frankly, I think it was very honest. He doesn't hide away the fact that he enjoys the game. He's not shitting on the game at all. He just simply can't recommend the game.
I really enjoy playing AvP, UT3 and Quake 4. But I couldn't in good conscience recommend any of those either.
My experience has been as follows:
I have had several NS2 players, follow me around on reddit, social media sites (such as twitter, facebook and forums) 24/7 downvoting and reporting all my efforts as spam.
I gotten replys from gaming press, that they have been contacted by the NS2 community (even before i send em review keys) - Telling em FLG have stolen NS2 code, and that we are thiefs, and they where treathened by association with the resent gamepress scandals, but also email spam and even in one case a DDoS attack. (From NS2 players that had yet to even play the game).
A common theme on almost all promotional content, have been:
1. "This is a mod, do not buy!"
2. "Why isnt this free?!?"
and
3. "Why isnt it a 5$ DLC."
The short and the long story of it all, is that around 100 dissatified NS2 players, have succesfully made the launch far worse than expected.
I am but 1 guy, and while i have worked a average of 15hours each day, all days including weekends, i had no chance in hell to "fight off" 100 angry people, that wanted the game for free. And have actively sabotaged almost all PR and marketing efforts made not only by me, but also reviewers, youtubers and streamers.
Anyways, its early in the morning and before this goes into a rant.
Here is 3 actual reviews, randomly picked from the gaming press.
So if you are undecided about wanting to get the game or not. Have a look at someones opinion who aint swayed by bias for or against, and stand on a neutral ground.
http://calmdowntom.com/review/natural-selection-2-review-pc/
http://www.entertainmentbuddha.com/reviews/natural-selection-2-combat-review/
http://www.gamewatcher.com/reviews/ns2-combat-review/11595
So many potential new players are turned away by "not reccomended" from ns2 vets. frankly, that's bull shit. If you got the game for free and are enjoying it enough to play 34 hrs in under 2 weeks, then SHUT THE FUCK UP with your not recommended bullshit. You're pissing on people who don't deserve to be pissed on.
He even admits he knows that if they sell for too little, they're in trouble, and if they don't, they're in trouble. He says "making us buy ns2 again" when he didnt even buy the fkng game. He fails to mention that in his review.
Over 220 products in his library. 9 he has reviews on. Why does this 1/228 have to go out of it's way to not recommend a game that he KNOWS is from a deserving and hard working company, knows the cost must be what it is, and GOT FOR FREE. If anything all these vets should have just not said anything at all.
It's just low and comes off as begrudged (can be read as butthurt).
Oh the sweet taste of irony.
To play devil's advocate here, I think it's entirely fair to give a game a negative review because you think it isn't worth its price. If you don't think a game is providing enough content to justify the money they're asking for it, that's as good a reason as any to give it a bad score. And for what it's worth nobody giving the game a bad score hasn't played the game, since Steam only lets you review games if you have played them (although some people are giving bad scores with like 20 minutes which is obviously ridiculous.)
And to dismiss someone's complaints as "just someone who likes to bash UWE" is to turn a blind eye towards criticism... If people have legitimate issues with how a company operates it might be better to take their words into consideration rather than just saying "haters gonna hate" as though what they're saying is meaningless...
(please note I am not one of the people who shares this mindset, I'm very happy with my $15 Combat purchase. I just don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's criticism as being worthless just because they aren't happy with you)
My best gues is that atleast 90% of the negative reviews on the steam store, is from NS2 players that want the game for free, or as a 5$ DLC.
I was referring to the people who followed you and took the time to fuck the game over (who has the time and hate for that?). Uwe may not get as much money out of this game as expected - but that is side cash for uwe; flg loses more and they have their name on it. Basically, uwe took little DMG on a gamble poorly thought out and, sadly, this gamble only hurt flg.
I don't feel so bad about uwe's 'wallet', because they have a few revenues of income and have had years to plan. I've always felt they milked the "we are indie, plz halp us" for far too long.
Anyway, purposefully trying to ruin a game's launch with over-the-top bs is pathetic and sad. Legitimate negative reviews are fine; they have no bais behind them.
The thing is, it's not just "Lol the internet"... this is lives and livelihoods being impacted by people on crusades of entitlement, ego, and hive-mindedness. Some would say "don't take it seriously or to heart", but try being the target of something like this and you'll soon realize even those with the toughest skins will eventually start to crack.
The internet (and life, in part because of the constant connection *to* the internet) is perpetual high school these days, and the ones with the biggest sway and loudest, most polarizing voices use their influence to crush others for kicks and their own ego boost. The masses follow or turn a blind eye because they don't want to be the next target (and justify it because "it's just the internet"), while those willing to stick their necks out by being logical and objective are pounded on relentlessly until they give up or join the horde.
Being at the mercy of a crusade of abusive negativity is horrible, and because of the internet will follow you around for a very long time, bleeding into all aspects of life.
You couldn't pay me to be a creator of anything requiring the public to succeed. I have only respect for those that keep doing it time and time again.
..... ........ no u.
Firstly, just want to say thank you for taking the time to post your measured replies Corey. We know you are busy and don’t really have time to get involved in these discussions, so it’s much appreciated that you have taken the time to do so. Bar a few comments by a minority of people, I think you will find that most of what is left of the community are very committed to the longevity of the NS franchise, and appreciate the work that UWE, the CDT, and FLG have done towards doing so.
But there comes a point where reality sets in and the facts must be faced. Combat was always going to have a turbulent release – surely you guys must have foreseen this going in. All the early warning signs were there – I mentioned a few of the concerns members from my community had a week before it released, as at the time there was very little info surrounding the game. I made that thread in the hope that FLG were aware of these issues and could work towards addressing them, because I knew that many of them would hinder the success of combat sales.
C’mon dude, the words of 100 people on the internet in a forum and or reddit thread cannot be considered as a legitimate reason for hindered sales. I can’t speak for the behavior of these people - if what you say they did is true then of course that’s obviously horrible behavior. But as fickle and nasty as some people might be, at the end of the day people vote with their wallets – the majority of potential sale targets out there will not have read the reddit or the forums. And even if they did, the problem many of these people had were with the price of the game or some reason similar to that, and not the game itself.
I’m afraid the bigger problem here, in my opinion, is that of FLG’s/UWE’s business model. I know you guys were just trying to give FLG a chance to find their feet and get off the ground with combat, but at the end of the day you are selling a product - which is of course is made with love and hard work, but it is a product and has to be treated as such. Marketing a product properly plays a crucial role in its success, regardless of whether you are an indie start up, arts organization, or corporation. You don’t need bags of money or a call of duty budget to have a successful marketing strategy/product launch, but you do need to have a well thought-out business plan.
Combat was unfortunate in the sense that it was a game based upon an established franchise, which has the majority of its assets in common with a previous product that was only launched 2 years ago. To make matters worse, the primary customers were ones that may have already played the game mode as a mod in NS2 already, meaning that the product may not have appeared as fresh and pioneering as originally intended. Since you were unable to market to new customers outside the established community already, then unfortunately these were the cards that you dealt and have to work with accordingly.
Again - surely this shouldn't be surpring to you? FLG’s whole marketing strategy for this game, in your own words, was to use word of mouth, third party reviewers like total biscuit (who will always been subjective) and social media to promote combat. As you guys had no budget for anything else, that means essentially the only people being reached by these type of campaigns are predominantly people who own NS2. It should not be at all surprising that these people would be vocal or object to various elements of combat. Also, as far as I can see on the steam store, the majority of reviews are actually positive (57), with only 16 negative (see below), meaning the positive far outweighs the negative. Using that as a reason for slow sales doesn’t stack up unfortunately.
I don’t condone people this ddosing nonsense or people saying that FLG’s posts are spam etc. That’s childish behaviour, and unacceptable. What is acceptable and normal is that some people would have an issue with combat being standalone. There were always going to be questions about the price too. Perhaps some went overboard when voicing their opinions. Thankfully, they are in the minority.
Down the line when you look back at combat though and look at overall sales, please consider that not everyone in the community was actively trying to undermine the game or FLG. This is a very passionate little community, and I’m sure most of them want to see the NS franchise continue to grow and prosper.
I know it’s also easy to get worked up reading many of these comments – but please keep in mind that there are those of us in the community who just want to make NS more successful than it is, and will always be commenting and questioning along the way to stimulate discussion and debate. Not all people on these forums are faceless trolls either – many of us have full time jobs like you guys and can appreciate how hard it can be. Hopefully the outcome of discussions, like this one, can be beneficial for all parties involved moving forward.
Maybe because they fear NS2 would die over Combat. It's not the same issue as NS1. When combat took over NS1 it was because NS1 was completely abandoned due to many HL1 factors / weakness. Here it can end up the same but for some of the same and other reasons as well. The ironic part is : it probably is some vets that are also killing NS2 with their online behavior.
Having an opinion is okay. Spreading bullsh!t is another matter. Steam isn't the only stream. Online press, forums etc, are other vectors as well.
Run a company, you'll see that pricing is somehow an issue with an indie studio. The so called DLC price is something that can be done by the big heads in the market (EA, UBI, etc). They can afford it. Other than that. Any company is endangering itself doing this (low price). especially these days. As you said if the price isn't considered ok by the potential buyer he can leave it like that. But that's not what happened (I have no interest in UWE or FLG companies).
Negative reviews have always a bigger impact than positive. No matter what. That's why so many companies invest huge pile of money (not only game industry) in communication. For some it's wrong (i wouldn't drink a Coke as it is toxic) but for some other it's the only way to make their product rise above the sea level.
There's a weird ripple effect that occurs in these kinds of situations. A single entity with some amount of celebrity can say something negative about something else. Their followers will believe it and regurgitate it. Others, who are just as unwilling to find out for themselves and need to latch onto someone else's opinion, will continue the regurgitation even though by that point it's so far from a first hand account it may as well be a complete fabrication (and often is). On and on the effect occurs, until completely incorrect or bias things are well "known" as fact.
The whole celebrity thing doesn't even need to be a person. If a popular area (say, a subreddit) is overwhelmingly negative, it is assumed to be truth (even though ultimately reviews are *opinion*, not fact). The vast majority of any website populace is lurkers, not posters, and very often the lurkers will simply adopt the opinion of the few that are vocal.
So yes, 100+ vocal people can absolutely make a massive difference, and they do... constantly.
Yes, people 'vote with their wallet'... but how their vote is influenced is what is important to remember. Like actual elections, your average person doesn't have a clue and is just "voting" based on whatever they hear. It's the few vocal people out there that can make or break anything... and unfortunately the trend right now is that breaking is funny and 'deserved' (due to the inflated sense of entitlement so popular at the moment).
I'm not saying this is the only reason that the game hasn't taken off, but it certainly wouldn't have helped.
Some people are just insane, have a lot of time on thier hands and nothing better to do.
We can all argue for hours if it should have been cheaper or a dlc. I see no point in that, the moment has passed because it is released as standalone.
We can argue all we want about promotional ways of FLG.. again rather pointless, the moment has passed.. it is released.
We can argue all we want about the 'players' who spend hours following persons like gisp around to nonstop downvote. I am not confident it will give any results to argue about them.
What we can do is accepting SA Combat as is, and deciding for ourselves if its worth it to buy as a standalone game.
Many will decide no, fair enough.
Others will decide yes, also fair.
I would argue that saying "I wont buy as it should be a dlc" is a wrong reason. Thats just spite, thinking you are entitled to something due to your own views.
If you think you should not buy it "because the gameplay and what the game offers isn't worth the price" I will not disagree, that's everyone's own opinion. That would indicate you actually REALLY thought about what the game would offer.
As for myself.
I got the game, I bought it. I did this after watching streams of the gameplay. Sadly the streams did not shows 2 'details' which in hindsight would have significantly altered my choice. (server stability & servers, and the marine starting weapon atm being near silent)
If I had known these 2 things I would never have considered to get the game. Every time I play SA Combat I experience no fun and stress due to these 'reasons'.
Would I play the game again, if these 2 things are fixed? Probably. (Im even thinking of seeing if I can make a soundmod, I saw client side sounds should technicly be outside consistency check)
TotalBiscuit brings up in the first 2 minutes of his video the issue of Combat being a standalone game, how you don't get it for free or discounted if you own NS2, etc and how it will be a "sticking point" for this game. Also, go to 16:45 and 20:55 in the above video and he talks specifically about the value perception of Combat, where I think FLG failed in convincing the current NS2 player why they should buy NS2: Combat. The NS2 player could have been their strongest word of mouth advocate, and instead they have turned it into a source of negativity.
The fact that GISP and Cory are coming on here and outright blaming people who own NS2 for hurting the game because of valid criticism is just downright sickening. If Combat did a well enough job of differentiating itself from NS2, there would not be this outcry. Furthermore, if Combat didn't still have all the issues that NS2 has (huge learning curve, large skill gaps, no tutorial, etc; all things TB brought up in his video btw), then maybe it could stand on its own 2 feet better. TB sounds like he'd rather be getting a colonoscopy than playing NS2: Combat during that video. It just doesn't look fun, and (I'm sorry FLG) it mimics my experience when playing the game.
I am just sick of reading all the blame being passed off. It's time to own your late/nonexistent marketing and advertising, flaws in the game, etc. NS2: Combat isn't selling because of some specific reviews on Steam. It's not selling because frankly its a mod of an already niche unpopular game with a high learning curve that still isn't that fun for the causal gamer.
A word of advice FLG: you should be addressing why TB has such an awful time playing your game and try to fix that, rather than spending time making these threads blaming others.