<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Jan 15 2003, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Jan 15 2003, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Geez, people. ALIENS CAN BHOP TOO!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> SO WHAT? the main argument against bhopping is that IT DOESN'T BELONG IN NS. period. ns is all about atmosphere. having 6 marines jumping around like a bunch of crickets on crack is not what flayra was going for. get over it or get out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If going faster than your intended running speed is an exploit, then everyone that has jumped, or held forward and press strafed is an exploiter. Yes that's right, you gain speed simply by running and jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the speed increase added by the methods you mentioned are negligible. bhopping speed is FAR more pronounced.
Im not sure if this has been said or not on this thread because I really dont feel like reading all these pages right now. Since Bhoping is going to be removed from marines. What about the alien side?
Are they going to lose their Bhoping skill as well? Most likly. Ether that or they can make it so jumping as an alien takes energy away from being able to bite or shoot acid would decrease the chances of aliens jumping around themselves. But the skulks are ment to be on the jumpy/sneaky/quick side. Fades on the other hand, seeing them jump away very quickly after being nearly killed should loss energy or some sort of thing.
Or Bhop will be removed from all sides and so nether can do so but that removes the skulks jump/quick thing. Then theres always celerity. I see good and bad things about removing bhoping, though I dont often bhop. I mostly see the bad things on the alien side. I'll just wait and see how they handle it.
You can still chophop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Maybe bhopping needs to be sorted on species by species basis?
As it is, a horde of skulks, screaming towards you, at various points different ones jumping up & down, looks <b>COOL</b> and really makes the skulks scary, whereas yes, it is true, a fade looks kinda dumb, but on the other hand, the Fade does look cool when pouncing on a marine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Wow.. up to seven pages. Including a few posts by Flayra on what's being killed, which a number seem not to read before posting. :b Also funny to note, with all the people posting on this thread, and how varied those enjoying that bhopping will be gone... only two or three people keep posting complaints as to its removal. Numerous who know how to do it and are happy that it'll be gone, however many trying to explain the difference between a strategem and an exploit, more wanting the ferrets-on-smack Marines toned down as well..
Just shows how devoted (and dependent upon?) the vocal minority are to their <b>exploits</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--JRock+Jan 15 2003, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JRock @ Jan 15 2003, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b> I should be nicer so my post is taken seriously and not deleted.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The hell did I say that wasn't nice? The only thing I notice that was deleted was my extra exclamation points and question marks which were put in there (as I said in there) to show just how exasperated I am that people are still confusing the issue we're discussing here with another issue.
Again, bunnyhoping THE EXPLOIT is the issue, not bunnyhopping as in "jumping up and down a lot when attacked". Don't confuse the two. And anyone saying stuff about stamina is confused and talking about the latter instead of the former. What exactly do you expect Marines to do when being attacked by skulks, stand still and be eaten?!
The thread has gone slightly off topic and is both discussing bunnyhopping and jumping-like-a-freak-to-avoid- my-ankles-geting-bitten-off syndrome.
I think were all now aware of the difference between the two, although we don't seem to have come to a consensus on what to label each of them to tell the difference, and I think that is what is causing some confusion. I'll just call them bunnyhopping and evasive jumping.
Bunnyhopping = Bad. Evasive jumping = Until rolls or some other evasive manoeuvre gets put in, I think it shouldn't be nerfed in anyway. Flayra has already said this is the case.
It's good to hear he's understanding and realizes it would be irrational for Marines to just stand still while being attacked by a big ugly dog creature. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just don't understand what he edited in my post (I try to keep my posts here fairly civil even though I'm used to less restrictive forums.)
For all of those who didn't read most of the posts before posting, please at <b>least</b> read Flayra's. He's posted his reasons for changing what he will be changing, and what he plans on keeping about the "marines on smack."
I find the jumping marines an acceptable(sp?) thing to occur when you begin to get assaulted from every corner, the problem is that you can jump backwards (if you have <b>any</b> skillz) and pop a skulk charging head on at you (unless the skulk invests in celerity, then you cheating **** deserve what the skulk dishes) because of the <b>exploit</b> to get around the backwards movement slow-down. That's an exploit, period, end of story. It's not "leet skillz" to get around something in the game engine that is getting fixed now.
As for not using an exploit, that's always up to you. Since most servers are still 1.03, you can still turn into a marine clone as an alien, that's perfectly acceptable(sp?), too.
The difference I'm trying to post is this: There is a difference between something being in the game, and something not being an exploit. Last I checked, <b>everyone</b> agreed that the alien/marine class is an exploit.
And that thy are doing. Ok, either Valve cannot (because of side-effects for mods etc) or will not remove BHopping for the <i>base HL</i> does not mean it needs to stay in NS. The creator has deemed it an exploit and thus is removing it. How can one honestly arguing against removing it by saying that "If it was a bug they would remove it". Has anyone who made this comment actualy looked at what they posted?
Developer=God Player=Well.. not God.
Pretty simple concept really. He says "no" and removes it. Don't like it? I have a secret hint that will make you life much easier....
Come closer.... closer....
No.. Closer....
<b>DON'T PLAY!</b>
Odd that some developer think of the general public over a few L33t persons... go figure! Personally, I think he's gone looney. Everyone knows you satisfy the L33t Hax so that the pesky players go away! Sheeesh!
If I am not mistaken, there were scripts to allow you to bunnyhop for CS. (I could be wrong but I am pretty sure there were.)
Yes it takes skill to do, you are still exploiting the game, just like hostage jumping in CS took skill, but it was still an exploit.
Just because it takes skill does not mean it should be part of the game. If the developes have said that its an exploit, then it is an exploit.
I do not try to enforce no bunny hopping on my server, as I know how hard it is to try to control it from running CS since 1.1 but I don't like it when it's done. People get around faster then they are meant to, and don't make any noise. In a game where even walking creates noise, I don't think that this is fair at all. Anyone that dwells on the fact that it takes skill to do, just don't get it, and are the people that like to have that unfair advantage. (and it has nothing to do with new players vs experianced players, because I am pretty sure that Aliens can't bunnyhop anyways, so its a marine exploit, which means that noob or not, you are giving one team an advantage that the other can't use)
the line between fantasy and reality is blurred in this game, but WE ALL KNOW THAT HUMANS CANT BUNNY HOP AND THAT ITS NOT AN ADVANCED TECHNIQUE, anyone with more than 1 finger on each hand and 1/3 a brain can bhop. the only reason it was in the the game was cause the devs had more important things in mind, like...making the game. to all you who like bhop, go install cs v1.1
Developer=God Player=Well.. not God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <Flayra|v104> Please stop confusing me with God, it's just...not appropriate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
that is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wha...what? So...Flayra's NOT God? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
As of Now, I propose another BUG to be taken out in a later patch. It's called "Alien Bunny-Hopping." No, seriously. I'm just tired of those stupid skulks being able to leap at me and jump around like rabbits on Speed.
So I propose that aliens be made to no longer have the ability to jump. SOmebody's gotta be with me, right? RIGHT?!!?
Some people... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
For the billionth time...
<b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>THE ONLY PART OF "BUNNYHOPPING" THAT IS BEING REMOVED IS THE SPEED EXPLOIT.</span></span></u></i></b>
You will still be able to jump around as much as you want to avoid enemy attacks.
Can you say how this is being done pls, as if its via removing air acceleration then you wont be able to turn in the air anymore (ie. good for skulks). If its by setting the bhop speed cap which is mod dependant to 100% instead of what it is in presently (compared to 170% in tfc) then that is the best way forward in my opinion.
Bunnyhopping is skill related. But it might also depend on what kind of system you have, much like a certain bug related to your Frame's Per Second, it's never really been documented or studied.
Either way, it's going bye-bye, so no more crouched bunny hopping around the entire level silent as a mouse but with an HMG in your hands
<b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>THE ONLY PART OF "BUNNYHOPPING" THAT IS BEING REMOVED IS THE SPEED EXPLOIT.</span></span></u></i></b>
You will still be able to jump around as much as you want to avoid enemy attacks.
Let's recap.
Speed exploit = bad. Evasive maneuvers = good.
Bad = leave. Good = stay.
Got it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I got what you are saying but I don't get you...
I used to think you held your own opinion Coil, but this Bunny Hopping Issue has revealed your true colours.
I recall reading on <i>several</i> occasions (I wish I had a quote but I don't) that your position on bunny hopping as an evasive manouver was that it is a detriment to the atmosphere of NS. I was impressed that both you and Silver Fox, two of the respected "old timers" to NS, expressed yourselves honestly and posted the way you felt without feeling like you had to agree with the developers. In other words you didn't get your position as a NS vet by being a suck-up.
Now you seem to have changed your position to that of the Flay's, which is that bunny hopping as an evasive manouver is okay. Why such a drastic change in position Coil?
I don't mean to flame so please don't take it that way.
Now regardless of whether bunny hopping as an evasive manouver is allowed or not in future versions I will probably still continue to play NS. But my opinion (whether it means anything or not) stands, I feel that bunny hopping as an evasive manouver fundamentally undermines the basic premise of the alien close-range attack and negatively impacts the atmosphere of NS.
People nowadays have great... no, amazing reflexes. Not only are people adept at acquiring moving targets at long to medium ranges, people are now quick and accurate enough to repeatedly jump, spin, acquire a moving target, and shoot them at close ranges. In public servers this jumping/spinning/targeting/shooting is actually what "bunny hopping as an evasive manouver" is.
I feel the average person's skill with bunny hopping as an evasive manouver has gotten so good that it has made close combat with aliens a 50/50 chance of survival for a marine (A person with really good reflexes could swing the success rate in their favor even). I feel that the chances of survival for a close-quarter encouter with an alien should be far less then 50/50, it should be 70/30, even 80/20 for the aliens.
Additional Thought (EDiT): I feel the removal of bunny hopping as an evasive manouver, in it's current state, will swing things back to the alien side. It doesn't have to be removal of repeated jumping, but in it's current state the ability to kills the alien while you are jumping repeatedly to evade him should be changed. A couple suggestions would be far less accurate shooting in the air, or no shooting in the air at all. I don't object to repeated jumping as an evasive manouver, I <i>do</i> object to repeated jumping and shooting as an effective <b>counter-attack</b>. The only effective counter-attack to being chewed up at close-range by an alien should be to get into squads.
I thought part of the advantage to sticking in squads on the marine team was that you have more eyes and firepower to deal with an alien threat from long to medium ranges. By allowing close-combat to be a viable option for the marines I feel that sticking together will become less important.
Already I see symptoms of this problem. On a rather excellent breakdown of Marine responsibilities on a thread in the Marine Strategy Forum a poster lists several roles that need to be filled for a successful marine game. One of the roles given was <b>Rambo/Scout</b>, here is the thread and description:
The Rambo - Every military entity has a small squad of troops that take the jobs that must be covert and typically extremely dangerous. These are the guys that harass the aliens. They aren't looking for just ANYTHING to kill. They are looking to cause aliens a blow to their resource reserves and if possible, take out hives. Sneaking past poorly made alien defenses, these marines sneak their way into the most vulnerable undefended alien areas to cause as much damage as they can before the aliens can react. This has the direct effect of hurting the aliens severely. It has the indirect effect of causing the aliens to halt their plans for conquest and come running. I've seen rambos thwart a seemingly unstoppable marine start attack just by attacking a hive. They work best in a grouped team of 2 to 3, but one good rambo can make the difference.
Even though I fundamentally disagree with this position being in NS at all I agree with the poster's strategy. <b>One good Rambo <i>can</i> make a difference</b> (especially on Public Servers), and no doubt bunny hopping as an evasive manouver will be one of the important skills a good Rambo has under his belt.
What would the marine team be like if everyone wanted to be that one good Rambo? What would become of NS when all the marines become that one good Rambo? I thought a team of Rambos (Whether they are good or not) is the exact opposite of what NS is.
Just because NS is <i>labeled</i> a Teamplay game it doesn't mean people will automatically teamplay, <i>people do what it takes to win</i> (hence the use of whatever exploits left in a game). If victory is equally as possible with a solo strategy, why go through the time and effort of organizing a team strategy?
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 14 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 14 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd love to see a marine stamina system + sprinting in there <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok.... so consider this analogy. Bunnyhopping = sprint manouver, bunnyhopping speed limiter = stamina bar. After so many hops you hit the stamina limit and lose your speed. So basically what you want in the game is exactly what we've already got, except you want it simplified to the act of holding down a sprint key?
Do you believe bunnyhopping "totally changes the gameplay on an individual level from simple Frag it![tm] to tactical."? If not, what makes you think a sprint key would?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that the difference between bunnyhopping and sprinting is actually quite simple:
Bunnyhopping is a "skill" that you have to go out and learn somewhere, which uses an interesting, nonintuitive quirk of the physics engine to get you moving faster than you normally would, and is not a technique usually taught in a game manual.
Sprinting is a function deliberately built into a mod which gets you moving faster than you normally would, and has a special bind associated with it, as well as a place in the game manual.
Replacing bunnyhopping with sprinting would accomplish two things:
1) It would bring the "moving faster than you normally would" aspect of the game to a level where everybody could do it, rather than just the people who went out and learned a "skill."
2) It would remove what some people consider to be an exploit from the game, thereby solving a lot of issues (such as huge 120 post long arguement threads over the use of bunnyhopping).
It's like including a "reload" key in a game, rather than some FPS'es of yesteryear where you had to pull up your inventory and drag-drop a new magazine onto the gun you're currently using. The advantage gets handed to the guy who can access his inventory faster, but is that really a skill you want to encourage in your game? Or would you rather make it simple for everybody and have other skills take precedence (such as aim and teamwork)?
If you personally feel that bunnyhopping is a skill that truly separates the skilled player from the unskilled, then you and I have fundamental disagreements about what makes a person "skilled." As for me, well... I just play what they hand me the way i want to play it... I suggest the rest of you either do the same, or move on to a different mod, just like everybody else.
It's not like we're talking about some ethereal skill here, like being able to aim or knowing how to listen to footsteps. We're talking about MOVING here, people... something that you shouldn't have to think about, but should come naturally. Most of us feel that moving about is something they can do without special effort or thought or skill involved... converting to a sprint system in NS simply makes that the reality in the game as well as in real life.
<!--QuoteBegin--Inexorable+Jan 16 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Inexorable @ Jan 16 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Waitwaitwait... I'm confused..... Will we still be able to hop around like idiots after the fix?
*runs and ducks*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. It will.
Flay has posted that <b>bunny hopping as a speed exploit will be removed</b> <i>but</i> <b>bunny hopping as a method of bouncing up and down to avoid being hit</b> (hence 'Bunny Hopping as an evasive manouver') <b>will <i>not</i> be removed</b>.
I think Shrike has a good point.
Is NS about survival through reflex manouvers (jumping repeatedly to evade, shoot, and kill your enemy) or survival through team manouvers (stick in squads, leap frogging, watch your archs, and cover your teammates back)?
<!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Jan 16 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Jan 16 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bunny hopping is a skill guys! If you cant see that you obviously dont know how to download a script!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehrm, downloading a bhop-script is a skill???
1) Bhopping doesn't fit in NS, Not for Marines, Not for Aliens 2) Marines want to go somewhere fast, use phasegates. 3) Evasive-jump=not bhopping and will stay <span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> 4) Flayra has the last word, god or not, he says what's in, and what's out. Period </span></span>
Parasite was being sarcastic. Could done with a smiley too reinforce it though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Jan 16 2003, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Jan 16 2003, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel that the chances of survival for a close-quarter encouter with an alien should be far less then 50/50<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU feel. Not the rest of us. Your opinion is one that favors aliens which, while more movie-like, is not ideal for a game where balance is everything.
Also what the hell is an NS old timer or veteran? The game's only been in public release for 3 months and already people swing around terms like "vet" and "old timer" in attempts to make themselves out to be better or more important than the rest of us. Elitism sucks, folks. Keep it to the CS community.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO WHAT? the main argument against bhopping is that IT DOESN'T BELONG IN NS. period. ns is all about atmosphere. having 6 marines jumping around like a bunch of crickets on crack is not what flayra was going for. get over it or get out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If going faster than your intended running speed is an exploit, then everyone that has jumped, or held forward and press strafed is an exploiter. Yes that's right, you gain speed simply by running and jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the speed increase added by the methods you mentioned are negligible. bhopping speed is FAR more pronounced.
Are they going to lose their Bhoping skill as well? Most likly. Ether that or they can make it so jumping as an alien takes energy away from being able to bite or shoot acid would decrease the chances of aliens jumping around themselves. But the skulks are ment to be on the jumpy/sneaky/quick side. Fades on the other hand, seeing them jump away very quickly after being nearly killed should loss energy or some sort of thing.
Or Bhop will be removed from all sides and so nether can do so but that removes the skulks jump/quick thing. Then theres always celerity. I see good and bad things about removing bhoping, though I dont often bhop. I mostly see the bad things on the alien side. I'll just wait and see how they handle it.
As it is, a horde of skulks, screaming towards you, at various points different ones jumping up & down, looks <b>COOL</b> and really makes the skulks scary, whereas yes, it is true, a fade looks kinda dumb, but on the other hand, the Fade does look cool when pouncing on a marine. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just shows how devoted (and dependent upon?) the vocal minority are to their <b>exploits</b>.
The hell did I say that wasn't nice? The only thing I notice that was deleted was my extra exclamation points and question marks which were put in there (as I said in there) to show just how exasperated I am that people are still confusing the issue we're discussing here with another issue.
Again, bunnyhoping THE EXPLOIT is the issue, not bunnyhopping as in "jumping up and down a lot when attacked". Don't confuse the two. And anyone saying stuff about stamina is confused and talking about the latter instead of the former.
What exactly do you expect Marines to do when being attacked by skulks, stand still and be eaten?!
The thread has gone slightly off topic and is both discussing bunnyhopping and jumping-like-a-freak-to-avoid- my-ankles-geting-bitten-off syndrome.
I think were all now aware of the difference between the two, although we don't seem to have come to a consensus on what to label each of them to tell the difference, and I think that is what is causing some confusion. I'll just call them bunnyhopping and evasive jumping.
Bunnyhopping = Bad.
Evasive jumping = Until rolls or some other evasive manoeuvre gets put in, I think it shouldn't be nerfed in anyway. Flayra has already said this is the case.
I just don't understand what he edited in my post (I try to keep my posts here fairly civil even though I'm used to less restrictive forums.)
For all of those who didn't read most of the posts before posting, please at <b>least</b> read Flayra's. He's posted his reasons for changing what he will be changing, and what he plans on keeping about the "marines on smack."
I find the jumping marines an acceptable(sp?) thing to occur when you begin to get assaulted from every corner, the problem is that you can jump backwards (if you have <b>any</b> skillz) and pop a skulk charging head on at you (unless the skulk invests in celerity, then you cheating **** deserve what the skulk dishes) because of the <b>exploit</b> to get around the backwards movement slow-down. That's an exploit, period, end of story. It's not "leet skillz" to get around something in the game engine that is getting fixed now.
As for not using an exploit, that's always up to you. Since most servers are still 1.03, you can still turn into a marine clone as an alien, that's perfectly acceptable(sp?), too.
The difference I'm trying to post is this: There is a difference between something being in the game, and something not being an exploit. Last I checked, <b>everyone</b> agreed that the alien/marine class is an exploit.
And that thy are doing. Ok, either Valve cannot (because of side-effects for mods etc) or will not remove BHopping for the <i>base HL</i> does not mean it needs to stay in NS. The creator has deemed it an exploit and thus is removing it. How can one honestly arguing against removing it by saying that "If it was a bug they would remove it". Has anyone who made this comment actualy looked at what they posted?
Developer=God
Player=Well.. not God.
Pretty simple concept really. He says "no" and removes it. Don't like it? I have a secret hint that will make you life much easier....
Come closer.... closer....
No.. Closer....
<b>DON'T PLAY!</b>
Odd that some developer think of the general public over a few L33t persons... go figure! Personally, I think he's gone looney. Everyone knows you satisfy the L33t Hax so that the pesky players go away! Sheeesh!
Yes it takes skill to do, you are still exploiting the game, just like hostage jumping in CS took skill, but it was still an exploit.
Just because it takes skill does not mean it should be part of the game. If the developes have said that its an exploit, then it is an exploit.
I do not try to enforce no bunny hopping on my server, as I know how hard it is to try to control it from running CS since 1.1 but I don't like it when it's done. People get around faster then they are meant to, and don't make any noise. In a game where even walking creates noise, I don't think that this is fair at all. Anyone that dwells on the fact that it takes skill to do, just don't get it, and are the people that like to have that unfair advantage. (and it has nothing to do with new players vs experianced players, because I am pretty sure that Aliens can't bunnyhop anyways, so its a marine exploit, which means that noob or not, you are giving one team an advantage that the other can't use)
Developer=God
Player=Well.. not God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<Flayra|v104> Please stop confusing me with God, it's just...not appropriate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
that is all.
As for if it;s a bug, it is, simple!
Developer=God
Player=Well.. not God.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<Flayra|v104> Please stop confusing me with God, it's just...not appropriate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
that is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wha...what? So...Flayra's NOT God? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
/me crei
So I propose that aliens be made to no longer have the ability to jump. SOmebody's gotta be with me, right? RIGHT?!!?
Some people... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>THE ONLY PART OF "BUNNYHOPPING" THAT IS BEING REMOVED IS THE SPEED EXPLOIT.</span></span></u></i></b>
You will still be able to jump around as much as you want to avoid enemy attacks.
Let's recap.
Speed exploit = bad.
Evasive maneuvers = good.
Bad = leave.
Good = stay.
Got it?
*snigger*
Bunnyhopping is skill related. But it might also depend on what kind of system you have, much like a certain bug related to your Frame's Per Second, it's never really been documented or studied.
Either way, it's going bye-bye, so no more crouched bunny hopping around the entire level silent as a mouse but with an HMG in your hands
<b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:yellow'>THE ONLY PART OF "BUNNYHOPPING" THAT IS BEING REMOVED IS THE SPEED EXPLOIT.</span></span></u></i></b>
You will still be able to jump around as much as you want to avoid enemy attacks.
Let's recap.
Speed exploit = bad.
Evasive maneuvers = good.
Bad = leave.
Good = stay.
Got it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I got what you are saying but I don't get you...
I used to think you held your own opinion Coil, but this Bunny Hopping Issue has revealed your true colours.
I recall reading on <i>several</i> occasions (I wish I had a quote but I don't) that your position on bunny hopping as an evasive manouver was that it is a detriment to the atmosphere of NS. I was impressed that both you and Silver Fox, two of the respected "old timers" to NS, expressed yourselves honestly and posted the way you felt without feeling like you had to agree with the developers. In other words you didn't get your position as a NS vet by being a suck-up.
Now you seem to have changed your position to that of the Flay's, which is that bunny hopping as an evasive manouver is okay. Why such a drastic change in position Coil?
I don't mean to flame so please don't take it that way.
Now regardless of whether bunny hopping as an evasive manouver is allowed or not in future versions I will probably still continue to play NS. But my opinion (whether it means anything or not) stands, I feel that bunny hopping as an evasive manouver fundamentally undermines the basic premise of the alien close-range attack and negatively impacts the atmosphere of NS.
People nowadays have great... no, amazing reflexes. Not only are people adept at acquiring moving targets at long to medium ranges, people are now quick and accurate enough to repeatedly jump, spin, acquire a moving target, and shoot them at close ranges. In public servers this jumping/spinning/targeting/shooting is actually what "bunny hopping as an evasive manouver" is.
I feel the average person's skill with bunny hopping as an evasive manouver has gotten so good that it has made close combat with aliens a 50/50 chance of survival for a marine (A person with really good reflexes could swing the success rate in their favor even). I feel that the chances of survival for a close-quarter encouter with an alien should be far less then 50/50, it should be 70/30, even 80/20 for the aliens.
Additional Thought (EDiT): I feel the removal of bunny hopping as an evasive manouver, in it's current state, will swing things back to the alien side. It doesn't have to be removal of repeated jumping, but in it's current state the ability to kills the alien while you are jumping repeatedly to evade him should be changed. A couple suggestions would be far less accurate shooting in the air, or no shooting in the air at all. I don't object to repeated jumping as an evasive manouver, I <i>do</i> object to repeated jumping and shooting as an effective <b>counter-attack</b>. The only effective counter-attack to being chewed up at close-range by an alien should be to get into squads.
I thought part of the advantage to sticking in squads on the marine team was that you have more eyes and firepower to deal with an alien threat from long to medium ranges. By allowing close-combat to be a viable option for the marines I feel that sticking together will become less important.
Already I see symptoms of this problem. On a rather excellent breakdown of Marine responsibilities on a thread in the Marine Strategy Forum a poster lists several roles that need to be filled for a successful marine game. One of the roles given was <b>Rambo/Scout</b>, here is the thread and description:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=19344' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=20&t=19344</a>
The Rambo - Every military entity has a small squad of troops that take the jobs that must be covert and typically extremely dangerous. These are the guys that harass the aliens. They aren't looking for just ANYTHING to kill. They are looking to cause aliens a blow to their resource reserves and if possible, take out hives. Sneaking past poorly made alien defenses, these marines sneak their way into the most vulnerable undefended alien areas to cause as much damage as they can before the aliens can react. This has the direct effect of hurting the aliens severely. It has the indirect effect of causing the aliens to halt their plans for conquest and come running. I've seen rambos thwart a seemingly unstoppable marine start attack just by attacking a hive. They work best in a grouped team of 2 to 3, but one good rambo can make the difference.
Even though I fundamentally disagree with this position being in NS at all I agree with the poster's strategy. <b>One good Rambo <i>can</i> make a difference</b> (especially on Public Servers), and no doubt bunny hopping as an evasive manouver will be one of the important skills a good Rambo has under his belt.
What would the marine team be like if everyone wanted to be that one good Rambo? What would become of NS when all the marines become that one good Rambo? I thought a team of Rambos (Whether they are good or not) is the exact opposite of what NS is.
Just because NS is <i>labeled</i> a Teamplay game it doesn't mean people will automatically teamplay, <i>people do what it takes to win</i> (hence the use of whatever exploits left in a game). If victory is equally as possible with a solo strategy, why go through the time and effort of organizing a team strategy?
*runs and ducks*
I'd love to see a marine stamina system + sprinting in there
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Ok.... so consider this analogy. Bunnyhopping = sprint manouver, bunnyhopping speed limiter = stamina bar. After so many hops you hit the stamina limit and lose your speed. So basically what you want in the game is exactly what we've already got, except you want it simplified to the act of holding down a sprint key?
Do you believe bunnyhopping "totally changes the gameplay on an individual level from simple Frag it![tm] to tactical."? If not, what makes you think a sprint key would?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that the difference between bunnyhopping and sprinting is actually quite simple:
Bunnyhopping is a "skill" that you have to go out and learn somewhere, which uses an interesting, nonintuitive quirk of the physics engine to get you moving faster than you normally would, and is not a technique usually taught in a game manual.
Sprinting is a function deliberately built into a mod which gets you moving faster than you normally would, and has a special bind associated with it, as well as a place in the game manual.
Replacing bunnyhopping with sprinting would accomplish two things:
1) It would bring the "moving faster than you normally would" aspect of the game to a level where everybody could do it, rather than just the people who went out and learned a "skill."
2) It would remove what some people consider to be an exploit from the game, thereby solving a lot of issues (such as huge 120 post long arguement threads over the use of bunnyhopping).
It's like including a "reload" key in a game, rather than some FPS'es of yesteryear where you had to pull up your inventory and drag-drop a new magazine onto the gun you're currently using. The advantage gets handed to the guy who can access his inventory faster, but is that really a skill you want to encourage in your game? Or would you rather make it simple for everybody and have other skills take precedence (such as aim and teamwork)?
If you personally feel that bunnyhopping is a skill that truly separates the skilled player from the unskilled, then you and I have fundamental disagreements about what makes a person "skilled." As for me, well... I just play what they hand me the way i want to play it... I suggest the rest of you either do the same, or move on to a different mod, just like everybody else.
It's not like we're talking about some ethereal skill here, like being able to aim or knowing how to listen to footsteps. We're talking about MOVING here, people... something that you shouldn't have to think about, but should come naturally. Most of us feel that moving about is something they can do without special effort or thought or skill involved... converting to a sprint system in NS simply makes that the reality in the game as well as in real life.
*runs and ducks*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. It will.
Flay has posted that <b>bunny hopping as a speed exploit will be removed</b> <i>but</i> <b>bunny hopping as a method of bouncing up and down to avoid being hit</b> (hence 'Bunny Hopping as an evasive manouver') <b>will <i>not</i> be removed</b>.
I think Shrike has a good point.
Is NS about survival through reflex manouvers (jumping repeatedly to evade, shoot, and kill your enemy) or survival through team manouvers (stick in squads, leap frogging, watch your archs, and cover your teammates back)?
Ehrm, downloading a bhop-script is a skill???
1) Bhopping doesn't fit in NS, Not for Marines, Not for Aliens
2) Marines want to go somewhere fast, use phasegates.
3) Evasive-jump=not bhopping and will stay
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> 4) Flayra has the last word, god or not, he says what's in, and what's out. Period </span></span>
Parasite was being sarcastic. Could done with a smiley too reinforce it though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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YOU feel. Not the rest of us. Your opinion is one that favors aliens which, while more movie-like, is not ideal for a game where balance is everything.
Also what the hell is an NS old timer or veteran? The game's only been in public release for 3 months and already people swing around terms like "vet" and "old timer" in attempts to make themselves out to be better or more important than the rest of us. Elitism sucks, folks. Keep it to the CS community.