IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2017
Hmm well it didn't seem like that was what you were saying when you just left it at "increase the price again" , implying that it wasn't proportional or that it had been done before.
I guess I disagree with your point that Marines have an advantage at that time. If anything they have an advantage at the very start of a round.. but I would say that the A2/ shotgun/PG timing is pretty well matched with fades and 2nd hive / typical tier 2 tech.
Also, even if I didn't disagree with you, I'd argue that there's a pretty decent power output difference between tier 2 tech and tier 3 tech - especially for aliens, enough that it can be a make or break scenario. (Multi onos compounding this ofc)
Or that one imbalance doesn't justify another?
I said it had already happened. Maybe I misread you, but my main point was that when you come up with solutions, you don't think of reverting but make a new short sighted solution that will create a new problem which will then require a new solution and so on.
I disagree. If aliens are stalemating marines on tier 2 tech, marines should lose. Especially when aliens don't even have many lifeforms in the first place, allowing for multiple onos, so its really tier 2 marines vs tier 1.5 aliens.
Its not about justifying. Its about showing you the flaw in your logic. That the game ends soon after onos comes up is a symptom of, amongst other things, marines being unable to contain the aliens in the first place. Its not the cause. If it was so, marines having a similar edge should prevent that from happening. Or "a lot can happen in that amount of time".
And no. The problem isn't that onos is so much more powerful than lerks and fades or the previous onos. The problem is that you can get to the point that you can legitimately have multiple onos as you don't have to commit to getting as many lerks and fades.
Why is this? As a pubber it lines up with what I see on the regular so I agree, but why is this, and should this be?
And no. The problem isn't that onos is so much more powerful than lerks and fades or the previous onos. The problem is that you can get to the point that you can legitimately have multiple onos as you don't have to commit to getting as many lerks and fades.
Why is this? As a pubber it lines up with what I see on the regular so I agree, but why is this, and should this be?
Because marines can't kill skulks or hives with 2/2 shotguns and pgs.
Skulk is an inherently easier lifeform to learn and play imo. Most people will do better, with their skulks than they will with their lerks or fades. And not just in structure damage, that much is obvious, but in kills as well.
I think the reason has something to do with the bites. I don't know if it's the combination of speed and bite cone or what - but people are just much better at landing bites with skulk, than they are with lerks or fades. It can also just be explained by the fact that skulk is necessarily the most commonly played lifeform.
Skulk is an inherently easier lifeform to learn and play imo. Most people will do better, with their skulks than they will with their lerks or fades. And not just in structure damage, that much is obvious, but in kills as well.
I think the reason has something to do with the bites. I don't know if it's the combination of speed and bite cone or what - but people are just much better at landing bites with skulk, than they are with lerks or fades. It can also just be explained by the fact that skulk is necessarily the most commonly played lifeform.
Probably they will spend 90% of their time on aliens as a skulk, unless they become good with another lifeform.
I'm adequate to good on every lifeform, but I still prefer skulks. Much less pressure, much easier to be productive. (Just go resbiting.)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2017
I believe it's because of the high skill floor requirement.
To be a good lerk you need to know what time of the round you can be aggressive or not, (first few minutes, before shotguns) you need to be really good at being highly/spastic levels of evasive and ensuring you only take a light amount of damage, and you need to be able to dodge effectively while simultaneously spiking/sporing. A huge contributor is role confusion.. many players mistake the lerk as a skulk with wings, and they often don't have the tools they need early on enough (look at average spore research time) to make it accessible for their skill level.
To be a good fade you need to be able to handle high speeds with short windows of time to attack that are part of your natural uninterrupted movement path, and accept that you're a hit and run role.
But both classes absolutely require you to leave the room alive.. and I really feel like that's the major barrier right there. I personally use ns2+'s ns1 style HUD bars to better determine when my armor is gone as an indicator of when to gtfo. A skulk doesn't care if he dies, and it's less of a chance of occurring (or at the very least provides more time to react) with onos.
There's no way to alleviate this at a fundamental level without massive changes like buffing their HP and severely lowering their dmg output, or something else radical like perma roles/ you get one lifeform purchase and can never lose it. None of which would ever occur, and requires too much work anyways. Even with thousands of hours of playtime, and as someone who considers himself at least decent with the lerk in pubs (surviving most of the round as a lerk) - I still often flash my lerk, as its so insanely easy to do so, it just requires one false move.
The game just wasn't designed from the ground up to be easily accessible, and the roles are not clearly communicated or designed for it anyhow.
@Aeglos
Marines can most definitely contain aliens and still the power shift once onos pop can be devastating.
A few months ago I described the issue as "win before onos pop or GG" and for aliens it's "survive the first few minutes and then wait for onos"
I still feel like that's the case, especially with your viewpoint of "if Marines can't close the game with tier 2 tech then they deserve to lose" which just sounds so incredibly binary.
Well, duh? Stop looking at it from a results point of view. Look at it from a process point of view. If, despite all the advantages you have, you can't beat the aliens, how do you expect to win when you don't have them? Especially when they are taking a risk with handicapping themselves temporarily for a greater gain. (Well, in reality they are more likely to flash lerk/fade, but thats more a problem of skill disparity on the server.)
And I didn't say close the game. I said stalemate. If you are killing their lifeforms, the onos are not as much a threat, especially with armoury blocks. Or if you are keeping their res down, you can stall out the onos for longer. Or if you can have jetpacks around that time, you are on even footing.
Really, even after all that, the biggest problem for marines is that they are entirely reliant on phasegates to project their power and can ill afford to lose them as reestablishing them takes teamwork that few teams can muster while aliens can more easily push marines out of position to take out the gates. Boneshield is incredibly broken, but you don't come up with it instantly and its also not stomp.
Also, its binary because you make it so. There are many hows to the game. You are just narrowly looking at the what. Good grief. Do you know that you can apply that to practically every game and sport?
That's not it. You should have to lerk and fade to be able to make it to a situation where the onos can help you push back. The problem is that aliens are doing so without committing to as many lerks and fades. The problem is why go lerk and fade when skulks do just fine?
Well, duh? Stop looking at it from a results point of view. Look at it from a process point of view. If, despite all the advantages you have, you can't beat the aliens, how do you expect to win when you don't have them? Especially when they are taking a risk with handicapping themselves temporarily for a greater gain. (Well, in reality they are more likely to flash lerk/fade, but thats more a problem of skill disparity on the server.)
I think the point is that aliens are not handicapping themselves. There are lots of convoluted reasons for this, but this point needs to be addressed first.
And I didn't say close the game. I said stalemate. If you are killing their lifeforms, the onos are not as much a threat, especially with armoury blocks. Or if you are keeping their res down, you can stall out the onos for longer. Or if you can have jetpacks around that time, you are on even footing.
Really, even after all that, the biggest problem for marines is that they are entirely reliant on phasegates to project their power and can ill afford to lose them as reestablishing them takes teamwork that few teams can muster while aliens can more easily push marines out of position to take out the gates. Boneshield is incredibly broken, but you don't come up with it instantly and its also not stomp.
Strongly disagree about Onos not being a threat. Onos are always a big threat because you can't tech counter an Onos, you must have high team skill.
There is a balance between tech and skill when it comes to countering stuff. For example, rines vs skulk. It's much easier and more effective for an individual rine to counter an opponent skulk with tech (shotguns, GLs, wep and armor upgrades) than to try to out skill a skulk by dodging and shooting like your Christian Bale in Equilibrium. There is no equivalent counter tech to Onos. No, not even JPs.
Agree about phasegate functionality, disagree it's a problem. It's actually a good thing, IMO. PGs being so high value gives the game moments of clear, intuitive goals for each side, without warping the game overall.
Also, its binary because you make it so. There are many hows to the game. You are just narrowly looking at the what. Good grief. Do you know that you can apply that to practically every game and sport?
That's not it. You should have to lerk and fade to be able to make it to a situation where the onos can help you push back. The problem is that aliens are doing so without committing to as many lerks and fades. The problem is why go lerk and fade when skulks do just fine?
Totally agree. The thing is, why? Are skulks OP? Are skulks balanced, but it's too hard for rines to take a hive? Is it too hard because of imbalanced numbers, or is it too skill dependent, or is it just not clear what rines need to do to take a hive? I don't know.
I think the point is that aliens are not handicapping themselves. There are lots of convoluted reasons for this, but this point needs to be addressed first.
Yes, they are. Its a bigger risk for a bigger reward. Skulks do not win fights as reliably as lerks and fades. This may not be true in reality, but thats a reflection of the players not the lifeforms. Res biting is important, but you have to make it to the extractors in the first place.
Strongly disagree about Onos not being a threat. Onos are always a big threat because you can't tech counter an Onos, you must have high team skill.
There is a balance between tech and skill when it comes to countering stuff. For example, rines vs skulk. It's much easier and more effective for an individual rine to counter an opponent skulk with tech (shotguns, GLs, wep and armor upgrades) than to try to out skill a skulk by dodging and shooting like your Christian Bale in Equilibrium. There is no equivalent counter tech to Onos. No, not even JPs.
Agree about phasegate functionality, disagree it's a problem. It's actually a good thing, IMO. PGs being so high value gives the game moments of clear, intuitive goals for each side, without warping the game overall.
Its not that onos isn't a threat. Its that its less of a threat if all you have to face are skulks and onos and don't have the distraction of lerks and fades drawing fire. Often only one onos can come through a door at a time. Put an armoury in that door and suddenly your onos is much less effective.
And jetpacks are a counter to onos. Its not a 1v1 counter, but they are enough of a threat. You can also counter onos with exos, although I haven't used them enough recently to know what the odds are in a 1v1.
Phasegates are what they are. If you have one connected, theres still hope. If you have none, you might as well concede unless you are confident of killing multiple lifeforms quickly. Its not so much good or bad and more of really big weakness.
My point is that the timer is the game. How you deal with it on both sides is the entire point.
No.. No it's not. And you know this? Stop pretending such, it's quite disingenuous.
You've been around since the beginning so I'll spare the history re-cap, but we both know that the timer was implemented post build 250, and flies in the face of Flayra's original design documents on multiple levels. (from lack of counter techs to timers themselves)
You can say you enjoy timers. You can say that you feel timer-less versions of NS2 that have previously existed for years aren't as fun because of X.
But what you cannot say without outright lying is that this uncommunicated timer is somehow the game - implying that it was planned, and has always been there, and is NS in a nutshell.
Lastly, can you engage in a discussion with me without being overly dramatic? Because the "good grief" quips and other drama laden responses are getting a bit old for me to endure.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2017
I could have also sworn the MGs were introduced to help fight onos. But what could be tried is that an onos need to be more reliant on gorge, lerk and fade support.
I mean maybe reduce onos HP so lerk umbra and gorge heal is more important. To compensate for that you could make gorge heal scale with max HP of a lifeform (if it doesn't already).
Maybe reduce the damage output of the onos so the killing power of fade is needed in engagements.
That way the onos plosion will be way less effective when no other lifeforms are up (I know this is the case already but maybe scale it in a way that 1 onos + 1 lerk + 1 fade are stronger than 3 onos)
The only other way I see how you could solve the problem is by making it harder to survive as aliens when you go skulk only (which is quite hard already... in competitive atleast)
Regarding timers, just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Aliens were always reliant on their tech explosions. What was before build 250 was fade balls which was even less survivable than onos in my opinion.
Even if that wasn't the case, pretty much any RTS has a "timer" built in it. If you can't make your opponent take an economic setback, you are very likely going to lose.
As for my responses, I can't help it. Its like how you selective reply and misrepresent. The rest are just all not worth a reply to for you. You can't help it either.
Thing is you're both right to a degree. There's always going to be a timer to a degree where at the end of the (tech) game one team _is_ stronger than the other. The caveat to that is the players' abilities (or inability) to maximise the power output available (skill floor and ceiling), not forgetting that players' skill fluctuates throughout the game as well.
The argument between you two is essentially the threshold of where the end game lies between three points of skill, tech strength, and time. Imo at the moment the onosplosion is too powerful regardless of the skill of the user and skill of the opponent team
Regarding timers, just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
"It exists" isn't the same as saying "it IS the game", and what that implies?? Let's not change the goal posts anymore, and we can move on in the discussion.
As for my responses, I can't help it. Its like how you selective reply and misrepresent. The rest are just all not worth a reply to for you. You can't help it either.
I reply to the relevant points that are able to be contested, that's how a discussion works. Going line by line for every point is unnecessary, and often just bogs down a discussion to a wall of text. (I don't even know what points you think I've ignored?)
Lastly, I find your claim of misrepresentation quite ironic.. You change the goalposts when called out and you somehow interpret accurate paraphrasing as misrepresentation, without ever clarifying.
If you feel like you've been misrepresented, clarify it!
Explain how saying "that IS the game" doesn't somehow imply more than just the existence of a mechanic?
Explain how saying "increase cost (already happened)" doesn't mean you're claiming that the price has been increased previously?
Explain how saying "if marines stalemate, its gg" doesn't mean if marines fail to keep their advantage and win, the advantage is given to aliens eventually and they have a high likelihood of losing?
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@Wob
I concur.
I'd also add that according to this thread's data, on average, tier 3 marine tech comes a little bit too late compared to the strong alien tech. The "time" portion, in relation to "tech strength" that you mentioned.
It is. If you don't delay the other team's tech, you are going to lose. Its that simple. As I said previously, there are many ways to deal with it, hence how and not what.
No. You are selectively replying to points. Unless I take it take you are conceding the points that you aren't replying to, but then that will contradict the points you are making, so I can't do that either. This isn't the first conversation you have done this.
As far as goal post shifting, the way I see it, you are the one doing it.
1. This is the game. It exists and is the game. I stand by it. That was in response to you saying it doesn't. Are you backing away from there being no timer pre250 now? Good to know, thanks.
2. Already happened vs again. Its not going to happen again when it has already happened.
3. Stalemate is not the same as winning as closing the game. You have to gain an additional advantage so you won't fall behind. Just because you don't end the game before onos doesn't mean that you will lose, which is what you are saying that I said.
And I have already clarified point three because I wasn't just going to let that go. But I have never ever clarified am I right?
Imo at the moment the onosplosion is too powerful regardless of the skill of the user and skill of the opponent team
Well, sure, it sucks, but that has always been the case. Boneshield is ridiculously strong now, but that doesn't usually come up early, and getting an onosplosion in the first place means that you are on limited higher lifeforms for the majority of the game.
I don't feel like onosplosion has always been this bad and I think there are solutions to help alleviate this issue.
It is also possible for those who do pick a lifeforms to then save enough for onos later in the game, but yes I agree that the main problem is the first wave of onos.
I wonder if maybe there should be another shift of lowering starting pres and reducing all pres costs of all lifeforms except the onos. At least this will help those brave players who choose to play something other than onos and would be slightly more forgiving to those who wouldn't try lerk/fade in the first place. I think the big problem is accessibility / low skill but I'd hate to see accessibility changed in a way that also reduces the skill ceiling anymore.
I also think gorges should be buffed in terms of agility and maybe even speed so they are more helpful and engaging instead of gardening. The poor mobility of gorges contributes to marines often out numbering the aliens early game in core locations which is a bit bonkers considering the power balance of the individual units (marine vs skulk).
I think we can all agree that the bone shield change made onos a lot stronger.
I think the best way to prevent onosplosion is to make them die as lerk and fade or get crushed as skulks.
I would like to see mine hp reverted to 100 instead of 30. I still regularly crash into mines that I really should have spotted, but I also have gotten a lot of extractors down that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. It might not result in anything except punish aliens that are losing harder, but it could also encourage more higher lifeforms by marginalising the skulks. Hopefully.
Or maybe just take silence off shift and see how aliens do with celerity skulks instead of silence skulks.
1. There is no tech available that will give an individual player as big an advantage against Onos as compared to all other life forms and situations. Wep ugrades+shotty drastically improve a rines odds against skulks, lerks, and to a lesser extent, fades. Exos even moreso, JP much more so. The only true "Onos killer" is coordinated teamwork.
2. There is no other tech in the game that so dramatically changes an individual player's role and gameplay as Onos. Lerk and Fade gameplay is, at a fundamental level, mostly the same as Skulk. You still have to be skillful, stealthy and opportunistic to accomplish goals. Blindly charging in as any of these life forms will get you killed with nothing to show for it. For an Onos, blindly charging in is the name of the game. There's no stealth or dodging skill. In this same vein, there is no tech that concentrates so much power into a single player.
I'm not saying these are good or bad things, just things. Is current Onos gameplay desirable? Is it intentional? What, if anything, should be changed? I don't know.
I wonder if maybe there should be another shift of lowering starting pres and reducing all pres costs of all lifeforms except the onos.
Ehhh.. that might just buff the aliens too much in general, and make it hard for marines to claw their way back from any disadvantage. "Fade down!" "So what? that doesn't mean much anymore" etc
We're already seeing some of that from the pres rate increase during the mid game.
... Why not just increase the price of Onos so that it becomes a greater risk to save up for it, and you're less likely to go Onos at any point if you've chosen another lifeform?
This is how the problem was originally solved some years ago. Perhaps the risk is no longer as grave.
Are you backing away from there being no timer pre250 now?
I never made the claim that there was?? If anything I stated the opposite, citing much longer round times and marines typically sitting on two bases with stupid strong exos?
I was there when we were playtesting the new Tier 3 alien tech, and how whenever we provided suggestions or said something was OP, the response was always "It has to be, in order to combat turtles".
That never was the case previously. Care was taken to make Tier 3 alien tech balanced and with equal counters, previous to that. The design goals had changed.
Certain groups of players enjoy longer back and forth rounds, and some enjoy shorter, more definitive rounds.
NS2 has shifted back and forth between either to varying degrees throughout the years. For ~build 250 onward there was a strong preference to the shorter round design goal among the balance team and therefore UWE, at the time. I believe this is where the difference in opinions stem in this thread.
So to clarify your main point : The biased timer IS natural selection, regardless of it not always being there. Interesting POV. I highly disagree and will leave it at that.
To clarify your 2nd point : "It has already happened" somehow doesn't mean that the price was always increased? It wasn't. We've been over this, you even recapped after i explained?
Respectfully, I am not going to discuss this further with you as its too draining and we just go in circles misunderstanding each other, getting no where.
* I removed your quote of me prior to my edit. * -IH
Oh, are we talking about contaminate instead of onos now? That's a different argument altogether, starting from it not being as achievable as onos.
Nice bait and switch. You say it doesn't exist, I say it does. Then you say that just existing does not equal to being the game, I say it does. Then you go back to not existing. Awesome.
No. Yes, we've been over this. At that time I just assumed we misunderstood each other. That was before you accused me of being disingenuous.
I have admitted I was wrong plenty of times. And my "wriggle and writhe" is me contesting the point. Unlike you completely ignoring points. What happened to my third point by the way? Can't admit you were wrong?
... Why not just increase the price of Onos so that it becomes a greater risk to save up for it, and you're less likely to go Onos at any point if you've chosen another lifeform?
This is how the problem was originally solved some years ago. Perhaps the risk is no longer as grave.
I really dislike this because it means players almost never get to go Onos and even then they don't get to really use them. NS1 Onos was just a novelty, not a meaningful part of the game. I don't have any suggestions of my own right now, and you may be right, this is just my opinion.
Are you backing away from there being no timer pre250 now?
I never made the claim that there was?? If anything I stated the opposite, citing much longer round times and marines typically sitting on two bases with stupid strong exos? I was there when we were playtesting the new Tier 3 alien tech, and how whenever we provided suggestions or said something was OP, the response was always "It has to be, in order to combat turtles".
That never was the case previously. Care was taken to make Tier 3 alien tech balanced and with equal counters, previous to that. The design goals had changed.
That's really interesting. Late tech in traditional RTSs is meant to be powerful yet not OP in and of itself. T3 tech in NS2 is, as far as I understand, intended to be OP in order to quickly end a round that has already been decided. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. On the one hand, getting T3 tech in NS2 is incredibly hard and very uncommon because you have to have near total map control, not just the res to fund it. If you accomplish this, you've pretty much won the game. Being able to quickly end it is good for both sides, as you don't gridlock into unfun turtles instead of moving to the next game where you get to actually play and have fun.
The problem with this design is that it makes T3 tech kinda not matter. If three tech points is a pseudo win condition, then there are no more interesting strategies and gameplay for either side. Just make three tech points an actual win condition. Aliens get 3 hives, game ends, rines lose even if the still have a CC up.
My personal experience is that the fun in NS2 is found in early and mid game. The longer games go on, the more things trend towards painful for the losers, boring for the winners, and no fun for anybody.
Certain groups of players enjoy longer back and forth rounds, and some enjoy shorter, more definitive rounds.
NS2 has shifted back and forth between either to varying degrees throughout the years. For ~build 250 onward there was a strong preference to the shorter round design goal among the balance team and therefore UWE, at the time. I believe this is where the difference in opinions stem in this thread.
Despite what I said a moment ago about longer games being less fun, I think longer back and forth rounds are where NS2 should be. There're a ton of FPSs that offer shorter rounds, like Overwatch. There's almost nothing like NS out there.
Please note I'm not saying either preference is wrong. There is a best choice for what to make NS2, though, and the devs need to decide what NS2 should be. Don't try to please all of the people all of the time.
Personally I like both short and long games. OW and NS2 are my drugs of choice nowadays .
So to clarify your main point : The biased timer IS natural selection, regardless of it not always being there. Interesting POV. I highly disagree and will leave it at that.
Timers and timings are neither good nor bad, they are just tools. NSs current state of a soft timer of "Countdown to Onos" is absolutely terrible because it's way too predictable and once it happens the game is almost always over, whether or not either team knows it. No interesting choices, no fun gameplay, no bueno.
"The longer games go on, the more things trend towards painful for the losers, boring for the winners, and no fun for anybody"
You covered all the bases already (to include the enjoyable back and forth rounds) and I agree with you, but one thing I wanted to add:
The situation you described is compounded and often created by said imbalances later on.
If either team had more of an equal chance of winning or coming back later in the round then there wouldn't be a clear winner as much, and therefore you'd be engaged and it wouldn't be painful.
A lot of the problems and UN fun things in ns2 I see as stemming from this lack of concern over later game balance.
How many rounds have you seen conceded early , before either team has the entire map, because aliens have multiple Oni or they just freshly dropped the 3rd hive? There's a reason the early and mid game are more enjoyable...
How many games has my team conceded after mass Onos/3hives? Very few.
How many games have I conceded in my heart after mass Onos/3hives? Every last one
Regarding late game and it's balance, I agree with you it's a problem, but I don't quite agree that it's as central a problem. I can't quite articulate why, it's a gut feeling.
Here's what I'm wondering: What precisely is late game in context of NS2, and why does it matter?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I guess I see it as a central problem in the sense that the times I hesitate to open ns2, it's because I'm weighing whether I want to potentially sit through a few frustrating and painful rounds in order to get one good one.
I can speak only for myself here, but the perception of imbalanced rounds are made greater due to these aspects. The high skill ceiling that I enjoy produces it, sure, but the mechanics that compound the predictability and then lead to painful experiences are what demotivate me.
I've asked this for years rhetorically, but, why shouldn't ns2 rounds be engaging until the very last second?
My thinking is that T3 imbalances don't matter because most of the time the game is decided before T3 ever arrives. Furthermore, trying to fix T3 is fruitless because the problems there are symptoms of the fundamental problems in the overall game. Fix the reasons why T3 tech has to be the way it is, then you can tackle the actual T3 gameplay.
Comments
I guess I disagree with your point that Marines have an advantage at that time. If anything they have an advantage at the very start of a round.. but I would say that the A2/ shotgun/PG timing is pretty well matched with fades and 2nd hive / typical tier 2 tech.
Also, even if I didn't disagree with you, I'd argue that there's a pretty decent power output difference between tier 2 tech and tier 3 tech - especially for aliens, enough that it can be a make or break scenario. (Multi onos compounding this ofc)
Or that one imbalance doesn't justify another?
I disagree. If aliens are stalemating marines on tier 2 tech, marines should lose. Especially when aliens don't even have many lifeforms in the first place, allowing for multiple onos, so its really tier 2 marines vs tier 1.5 aliens.
Its not about justifying. Its about showing you the flaw in your logic. That the game ends soon after onos comes up is a symptom of, amongst other things, marines being unable to contain the aliens in the first place. Its not the cause. If it was so, marines having a similar edge should prevent that from happening. Or "a lot can happen in that amount of time".
Why is this? As a pubber it lines up with what I see on the regular so I agree, but why is this, and should this be?
Because marines can't kill skulks or hives with 2/2 shotguns and pgs.
I think the reason has something to do with the bites. I don't know if it's the combination of speed and bite cone or what - but people are just much better at landing bites with skulk, than they are with lerks or fades. It can also just be explained by the fact that skulk is necessarily the most commonly played lifeform.
Probably they will spend 90% of their time on aliens as a skulk, unless they become good with another lifeform.
I'm adequate to good on every lifeform, but I still prefer skulks. Much less pressure, much easier to be productive. (Just go resbiting.)
To be a good lerk you need to know what time of the round you can be aggressive or not, (first few minutes, before shotguns) you need to be really good at being highly/spastic levels of evasive and ensuring you only take a light amount of damage, and you need to be able to dodge effectively while simultaneously spiking/sporing. A huge contributor is role confusion.. many players mistake the lerk as a skulk with wings, and they often don't have the tools they need early on enough (look at average spore research time) to make it accessible for their skill level.
To be a good fade you need to be able to handle high speeds with short windows of time to attack that are part of your natural uninterrupted movement path, and accept that you're a hit and run role.
But both classes absolutely require you to leave the room alive.. and I really feel like that's the major barrier right there. I personally use ns2+'s ns1 style HUD bars to better determine when my armor is gone as an indicator of when to gtfo. A skulk doesn't care if he dies, and it's less of a chance of occurring (or at the very least provides more time to react) with onos.
There's no way to alleviate this at a fundamental level without massive changes like buffing their HP and severely lowering their dmg output, or something else radical like perma roles/ you get one lifeform purchase and can never lose it. None of which would ever occur, and requires too much work anyways. Even with thousands of hours of playtime, and as someone who considers himself at least decent with the lerk in pubs (surviving most of the round as a lerk) - I still often flash my lerk, as its so insanely easy to do so, it just requires one false move.
The game just wasn't designed from the ground up to be easily accessible, and the roles are not clearly communicated or designed for it anyhow.
@Aeglos
Marines can most definitely contain aliens and still the power shift once onos pop can be devastating.
A few months ago I described the issue as "win before onos pop or GG" and for aliens it's "survive the first few minutes and then wait for onos"
I still feel like that's the case, especially with your viewpoint of "if Marines can't close the game with tier 2 tech then they deserve to lose" which just sounds so incredibly binary.
And I didn't say close the game. I said stalemate. If you are killing their lifeforms, the onos are not as much a threat, especially with armoury blocks. Or if you are keeping their res down, you can stall out the onos for longer. Or if you can have jetpacks around that time, you are on even footing.
Really, even after all that, the biggest problem for marines is that they are entirely reliant on phasegates to project their power and can ill afford to lose them as reestablishing them takes teamwork that few teams can muster while aliens can more easily push marines out of position to take out the gates. Boneshield is incredibly broken, but you don't come up with it instantly and its also not stomp.
Also, its binary because you make it so. There are many hows to the game. You are just narrowly looking at the what. Good grief. Do you know that you can apply that to practically every game and sport?
I think the point is that aliens are not handicapping themselves. There are lots of convoluted reasons for this, but this point needs to be addressed first.
Strongly disagree about Onos not being a threat. Onos are always a big threat because you can't tech counter an Onos, you must have high team skill.
There is a balance between tech and skill when it comes to countering stuff. For example, rines vs skulk. It's much easier and more effective for an individual rine to counter an opponent skulk with tech (shotguns, GLs, wep and armor upgrades) than to try to out skill a skulk by dodging and shooting like your Christian Bale in Equilibrium. There is no equivalent counter tech to Onos. No, not even JPs.
Agree about phasegate functionality, disagree it's a problem. It's actually a good thing, IMO. PGs being so high value gives the game moments of clear, intuitive goals for each side, without warping the game overall.
I don't know what your point is here.
Totally agree. The thing is, why? Are skulks OP? Are skulks balanced, but it's too hard for rines to take a hive? Is it too hard because of imbalanced numbers, or is it too skill dependent, or is it just not clear what rines need to do to take a hive? I don't know.
Yes, they are. Its a bigger risk for a bigger reward. Skulks do not win fights as reliably as lerks and fades. This may not be true in reality, but thats a reflection of the players not the lifeforms. Res biting is important, but you have to make it to the extractors in the first place.
Its not that onos isn't a threat. Its that its less of a threat if all you have to face are skulks and onos and don't have the distraction of lerks and fades drawing fire. Often only one onos can come through a door at a time. Put an armoury in that door and suddenly your onos is much less effective.
And jetpacks are a counter to onos. Its not a 1v1 counter, but they are enough of a threat. You can also counter onos with exos, although I haven't used them enough recently to know what the odds are in a 1v1.
Phasegates are what they are. If you have one connected, theres still hope. If you have none, you might as well concede unless you are confident of killing multiple lifeforms quickly. Its not so much good or bad and more of really big weakness.
Iron is obsessed over marines being on a timer. My point is that the timer is the game. How you deal with it on both sides is the entire point.
You've been around since the beginning so I'll spare the history re-cap, but we both know that the timer was implemented post build 250, and flies in the face of Flayra's original design documents on multiple levels. (from lack of counter techs to timers themselves)
You can say you enjoy timers. You can say that you feel timer-less versions of NS2 that have previously existed for years aren't as fun because of X.
But what you cannot say without outright lying is that this uncommunicated timer is somehow the game - implying that it was planned, and has always been there, and is NS in a nutshell.
Lastly, can you engage in a discussion with me without being overly dramatic? Because the "good grief" quips and other drama laden responses are getting a bit old for me to endure.
I mean maybe reduce onos HP so lerk umbra and gorge heal is more important. To compensate for that you could make gorge heal scale with max HP of a lifeform (if it doesn't already).
Maybe reduce the damage output of the onos so the killing power of fade is needed in engagements.
That way the onos plosion will be way less effective when no other lifeforms are up (I know this is the case already but maybe scale it in a way that 1 onos + 1 lerk + 1 fade are stronger than 3 onos)
The only other way I see how you could solve the problem is by making it harder to survive as aliens when you go skulk only (which is quite hard already... in competitive atleast)
Regarding timers, just because it wasn't intended doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Aliens were always reliant on their tech explosions. What was before build 250 was fade balls which was even less survivable than onos in my opinion.
Even if that wasn't the case, pretty much any RTS has a "timer" built in it. If you can't make your opponent take an economic setback, you are very likely going to lose.
As for my responses, I can't help it. Its like how you selective reply and misrepresent. The rest are just all not worth a reply to for you. You can't help it either.
The argument between you two is essentially the threshold of where the end game lies between three points of skill, tech strength, and time. Imo at the moment the onosplosion is too powerful regardless of the skill of the user and skill of the opponent team
I reply to the relevant points that are able to be contested, that's how a discussion works. Going line by line for every point is unnecessary, and often just bogs down a discussion to a wall of text. (I don't even know what points you think I've ignored?)
Lastly, I find your claim of misrepresentation quite ironic.. You change the goalposts when called out and you somehow interpret accurate paraphrasing as misrepresentation, without ever clarifying.
If you feel like you've been misrepresented, clarify it!
Explain how saying "that IS the game" doesn't somehow imply more than just the existence of a mechanic?
Explain how saying "increase cost (already happened)" doesn't mean you're claiming that the price has been increased previously?
Explain how saying "if marines stalemate, its gg" doesn't mean if marines fail to keep their advantage and win, the advantage is given to aliens eventually and they have a high likelihood of losing?
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@Wob
I concur.
I'd also add that according to this thread's data, on average, tier 3 marine tech comes a little bit too late compared to the strong alien tech. The "time" portion, in relation to "tech strength" that you mentioned.
No. You are selectively replying to points. Unless I take it take you are conceding the points that you aren't replying to, but then that will contradict the points you are making, so I can't do that either. This isn't the first conversation you have done this.
As far as goal post shifting, the way I see it, you are the one doing it.
1. This is the game. It exists and is the game. I stand by it. That was in response to you saying it doesn't. Are you backing away from there being no timer pre250 now? Good to know, thanks.
2. Already happened vs again. Its not going to happen again when it has already happened.
3. Stalemate is not the same as winning as closing the game. You have to gain an additional advantage so you won't fall behind. Just because you don't end the game before onos doesn't mean that you will lose, which is what you are saying that I said.
And I have already clarified point three because I wasn't just going to let that go. But I have never ever clarified am I right?
Well, sure, it sucks, but that has always been the case. Boneshield is ridiculously strong now, but that doesn't usually come up early, and getting an onosplosion in the first place means that you are on limited higher lifeforms for the majority of the game.
It is also possible for those who do pick a lifeforms to then save enough for onos later in the game, but yes I agree that the main problem is the first wave of onos.
I wonder if maybe there should be another shift of lowering starting pres and reducing all pres costs of all lifeforms except the onos. At least this will help those brave players who choose to play something other than onos and would be slightly more forgiving to those who wouldn't try lerk/fade in the first place. I think the big problem is accessibility / low skill but I'd hate to see accessibility changed in a way that also reduces the skill ceiling anymore.
I also think gorges should be buffed in terms of agility and maybe even speed so they are more helpful and engaging instead of gardening. The poor mobility of gorges contributes to marines often out numbering the aliens early game in core locations which is a bit bonkers considering the power balance of the individual units (marine vs skulk).
I think the best way to prevent onosplosion is to make them die as lerk and fade or get crushed as skulks.
I would like to see mine hp reverted to 100 instead of 30. I still regularly crash into mines that I really should have spotted, but I also have gotten a lot of extractors down that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. It might not result in anything except punish aliens that are losing harder, but it could also encourage more higher lifeforms by marginalising the skulks. Hopefully.
Or maybe just take silence off shift and see how aliens do with celerity skulks instead of silence skulks.
1. There is no tech available that will give an individual player as big an advantage against Onos as compared to all other life forms and situations. Wep ugrades+shotty drastically improve a rines odds against skulks, lerks, and to a lesser extent, fades. Exos even moreso, JP much more so. The only true "Onos killer" is coordinated teamwork. 2. There is no other tech in the game that so dramatically changes an individual player's role and gameplay as Onos. Lerk and Fade gameplay is, at a fundamental level, mostly the same as Skulk. You still have to be skillful, stealthy and opportunistic to accomplish goals. Blindly charging in as any of these life forms will get you killed with nothing to show for it. For an Onos, blindly charging in is the name of the game. There's no stealth or dodging skill. In this same vein, there is no tech that concentrates so much power into a single player.
I'm not saying these are good or bad things, just things. Is current Onos gameplay desirable? Is it intentional? What, if anything, should be changed? I don't know.
We're already seeing some of that from the pres rate increase during the mid game.
... Why not just increase the price of Onos so that it becomes a greater risk to save up for it, and you're less likely to go Onos at any point if you've chosen another lifeform?
This is how the problem was originally solved some years ago. Perhaps the risk is no longer as grave.
I never made the claim that there was?? If anything I stated the opposite, citing much longer round times and marines typically sitting on two bases with stupid strong exos?
I was there when we were playtesting the new Tier 3 alien tech, and how whenever we provided suggestions or said something was OP, the response was always "It has to be, in order to combat turtles".
That never was the case previously. Care was taken to make Tier 3 alien tech balanced and with equal counters, previous to that. The design goals had changed.
Certain groups of players enjoy longer back and forth rounds, and some enjoy shorter, more definitive rounds.
NS2 has shifted back and forth between either to varying degrees throughout the years. For ~build 250 onward there was a strong preference to the shorter round design goal among the balance team and therefore UWE, at the time. I believe this is where the difference in opinions stem in this thread.
So to clarify your main point : The biased timer IS natural selection, regardless of it not always being there. Interesting POV. I highly disagree and will leave it at that.
To clarify your 2nd point : "It has already happened" somehow doesn't mean that the price was always increased? It wasn't. We've been over this, you even recapped after i explained?
Respectfully, I am not going to discuss this further with you as its too draining and we just go in circles misunderstanding each other, getting no where.
Oh, are we talking about contaminate instead of onos now? That's a different argument altogether, starting from it not being as achievable as onos.
Nice bait and switch. You say it doesn't exist, I say it does. Then you say that just existing does not equal to being the game, I say it does. Then you go back to not existing. Awesome.
No. Yes, we've been over this. At that time I just assumed we misunderstood each other. That was before you accused me of being disingenuous.
I have admitted I was wrong plenty of times. And my "wriggle and writhe" is me contesting the point. Unlike you completely ignoring points. What happened to my third point by the way? Can't admit you were wrong?
I really dislike this because it means players almost never get to go Onos and even then they don't get to really use them. NS1 Onos was just a novelty, not a meaningful part of the game. I don't have any suggestions of my own right now, and you may be right, this is just my opinion.
That's really interesting. Late tech in traditional RTSs is meant to be powerful yet not OP in and of itself. T3 tech in NS2 is, as far as I understand, intended to be OP in order to quickly end a round that has already been decided. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. On the one hand, getting T3 tech in NS2 is incredibly hard and very uncommon because you have to have near total map control, not just the res to fund it. If you accomplish this, you've pretty much won the game. Being able to quickly end it is good for both sides, as you don't gridlock into unfun turtles instead of moving to the next game where you get to actually play and have fun.
The problem with this design is that it makes T3 tech kinda not matter. If three tech points is a pseudo win condition, then there are no more interesting strategies and gameplay for either side. Just make three tech points an actual win condition. Aliens get 3 hives, game ends, rines lose even if the still have a CC up.
My personal experience is that the fun in NS2 is found in early and mid game. The longer games go on, the more things trend towards painful for the losers, boring for the winners, and no fun for anybody.
Despite what I said a moment ago about longer games being less fun, I think longer back and forth rounds are where NS2 should be. There're a ton of FPSs that offer shorter rounds, like Overwatch. There's almost nothing like NS out there.
Please note I'm not saying either preference is wrong. There is a best choice for what to make NS2, though, and the devs need to decide what NS2 should be. Don't try to please all of the people all of the time.
Personally I like both short and long games. OW and NS2 are my drugs of choice nowadays
Timers and timings are neither good nor bad, they are just tools. NSs current state of a soft timer of "Countdown to Onos" is absolutely terrible because it's way too predictable and once it happens the game is almost always over, whether or not either team knows it. No interesting choices, no fun gameplay, no bueno.
"The longer games go on, the more things trend towards painful for the losers, boring for the winners, and no fun for anybody"
You covered all the bases already (to include the enjoyable back and forth rounds) and I agree with you, but one thing I wanted to add:
The situation you described is compounded and often created by said imbalances later on.
If either team had more of an equal chance of winning or coming back later in the round then there wouldn't be a clear winner as much, and therefore you'd be engaged and it wouldn't be painful.
A lot of the problems and UN fun things in ns2 I see as stemming from this lack of concern over later game balance.
How many rounds have you seen conceded early , before either team has the entire map, because aliens have multiple Oni or they just freshly dropped the 3rd hive? There's a reason the early and mid game are more enjoyable...
How many games have I conceded in my heart after mass Onos/3hives? Every last one
Regarding late game and it's balance, I agree with you it's a problem, but I don't quite agree that it's as central a problem. I can't quite articulate why, it's a gut feeling.
Here's what I'm wondering: What precisely is late game in context of NS2, and why does it matter?
I can speak only for myself here, but the perception of imbalanced rounds are made greater due to these aspects. The high skill ceiling that I enjoy produces it, sure, but the mechanics that compound the predictability and then lead to painful experiences are what demotivate me.
I've asked this for years rhetorically, but, why shouldn't ns2 rounds be engaging until the very last second?
A team can gain an obvious advantage mid game, and it can be an up hill battle, but it's not often entirely hopeless just yet.