pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Yes, thanks for the picture. I can certainly do it, would love to, but don't you think there is already enough cover in Comp Lab? ..plus it's smaller than Topo.
..I guess i just try it.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
I used to be really anal about all the stats of a map, esp new maps. Eg how long it takes to travel from TP to RT, TP to TP, how many units high/across the map's bounding box is.
Ultimately, the best thing to do is just play the damned map, see how it feels.
I don't really like the conection north of cargo (duel res room) and the hallways near the xeno research. Kinda confusing visually in-map although the overview doesn't look like it would be confusing.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Update:
-Added more rock cover to Biodome, so you can't shoot the hive from outside (you can still hit one arm tho)
-Smoothed floor in Biodome for better structure placement (Trees take space, but arent shown in commander view, so remember their position; gorge tunnels still make trouble, just like in Cave in Mineshaft; they hate displacement geo apparently)
-Visual improvements to Cargo, Shipping and Tram Tunnels
-Removed the tram+container prop at the marine entrance of Shipping (was kinda a death trap, not enough open space)
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
There are a few recent ns2_origin games in TGNS Replay now, with more to come -- the map has been received well. The videos captured so far include a lot of early commentary on the design.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2017
Thanks to everyone playtesting the map during the SCC session!
@Wyzcrak : Thanks for the replays! Very valueable feedback and fun to watch. I laughed hard when you tried to go through the rocky vent to furnace as gorge and paniced because of the lava pool.
The Map is similar to Veil, so I'm hoping to pull off the layout as it is.
I'm still balancing and improving the map, so I would appreciate, if you kept Furnace as possible Alien Start for now. It's also supposed to be the best hive to hold Cargo doubleres at start.
I've made a few improvements for Furnace hive tho:
-Added more pipes to Smelting Room and changed their height so its easier to get up there and navigate between pipes
-Shortened the diagonal part of the vent leading into Ore Scanner so skulks can get closer to the exit before being spotted
(still enough time for marines building the power node hopefully)
-Detailed corridor between Lava Catwalk and Ore Scanner, more cover for skulks and the bucket blocks the vent entrance
I've added another vent entrance into Cargo and increased the Ceiling. The new vent should help aliens starting in Biodome or Ventilation
I'm thinking about another vent somewhere between Biodome and Ventilation so marines can't block Water Treatment too easily.
There might also be a problem with aliens being locked in into Biodome too easily, but might just be aliens not using the vent system to flank properly.
Had a few rounds on this the other night finally. Unfortunately teams made them kind of stompy rounds, but I could see through the stomp. I think it already flows and feels very natural. Also, man... nostalgia. So good to run though laser drilling into lava... from biodome into comp lab. Ventilation is a great adaptation too
The only thing that made me a bit uncomfortable was how narrow some of the thresholds between some rooms are. I'll have to go back and make specific notes of which ones I'm referring to. K actually I looked real quick at the overlay in archie's vid. I kind of feel like... all room thresholds are a bit narrow. Very easy for skulk pouncing since there's not much room to take wide corners to avoid this.
Other than that, I need to play on it more, but seems like it could be an easy mapvote pick at this point for me
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks man, I'm always glad when NS1 players like the remake.
Also glad when ppl can see through stomps and unbalanced teams instead of jumping to balance conclusions.
I'll think about the room connections and what I can do.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
so just played a gather on your map aqnd noticed that marines have a huge advantage on the res game on origin. Aliens don't rly have natural RTs and cargo is way too easy to reach for marines to be able for aliens to be capped effectively.
So 2 ways on how to deal with that.
Option 1: Move the cargo RTs out of cargo, 1 into Water treatment and the other one into Generator. This would create natural RTs for aliens and help them establish a res game
Option 2: Completely remove the 2 lanes that lead from marine naturals to cargo. (Tram Tunnels and not sure what it is called on the other side). This will make the layout very similar to veil. Marines need way longer to get there and a commitment from aliens to take and hold cargo is a valid possibility then
Played one gather on it. That's not much, but enough for me to write here. Many rooms are nicely built and the overall layout felt similar to Veil.
It was 2 pretty clear marine wins. The map overall feels oversized, many rooms are very big and many line of sights are extremely long. Cargo is too easy for marines to get, one reason Veil works is because marines have a long way to go to get Nano. I don't really like double RT rooms and would prefer the two RTs spread out, but that is my personal opinion only. However that room makes it too easy for marines too hold too much res and that leaves Aliens in a difficult position, especially because they only have one natural RT.
Also I noticed the Biodome RT is way too easy snipeable from Water Treatment.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Long line of sights are necessarily an issue as long as you offer different routes, flanking opportunities or just general cover on the sides (I'm looking at you Hub on tram, and y-junction on veil!).
As for the rooms feeling too big, I ran around the map and It seems to me that the rooms are fine when it comes to size, but there just isn't enough in there yet, there is a lot of open space that feels like it would need some macro-geometry or extra propping etc. (which I assumed you already knew, with this being so early into the maps creation process)
As for the layout, in high level play this is very marine sided, even in relatively low skill pubs it is still pretty marine OP. It all seems to come down to how fast marines take and hold cargo.
About Laser Drilling:
I think that the res node position will make it too easy for skulks to bite the resource tower and get out without consequences, making the 'res bite skulk vs marine recapper'-game boring
Like this is pretty much how it will play out most of the time:
The marine is noticed from too far away and the skulk gets to exit too easily. Usually biting an RT is somewhat of an commitment, that puts the skulk in a bad position. When a marine enters the room while you're still at the resource tower, he should have the possibility to kill you.
The way it is right now, you never have to commit to biting and because of how exposed the room is, you don't really have the option to fight either.
I'd suggest to move the res node more to the south and add some view cover, so that the entering marine can't immediately shoot the skulk as he tries get away from the RT
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I think there are a lot of examples in other offical maps, where you can get out too easily.
And I wanted to try the ns1 setup first in this room.
You are right tho that this rooms gameplay is kinda straight forward and boring and I'm all for making it more fun.
I'll think about your node placement, it seems good. And I'm planning to shorten Laser Drilling anyway, because right now you can view entities disappear from Access entrance due to the view limit of 1500? units.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
You need to consider in ns1 it was much easier to kill skulks behind rts if you shoot at the right spot... often killed skulks easily in lasterdrilling behind the rt...
Did I see it right that there is no hidingspot at the top of the complab like in ns1?
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Yes, I considered that hiding spot too strong for a marine natural. Imagine you could hide on top of Topo in Veil. There are already a lot of hiding spots and cover in comp lab.
I've added a lot more cover, ambush spots and vents to the map to help Aliens.
I would love to add more starting cysts, so Aliens need less cysts to expand at start, but there is a range limit to them right now.
Blocking the tram tunnels corridor completly to increase travel time for Marines to Cargo will be a last resort for the future, if nothing else works out.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2017
Update:
New Res node layout, since this map was just too marine friendly!
-Added Ventilation Access location and res node between Biodome and Ventilation
-Added res node in Ore Extraction between Furnace and Ventilation
-Removed one res node in Cargo (former double-res);
might remove the other node, too, but I want this room to have some action.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Played earlier tonight, the alterations to res positions are already helping, feels a lot more balanced already. The map is feeling really good imo, I'm still relatively unfamiliar with routes and such so I don't play all that well on it, but I can see it becoming a fan favorite pretty fast once its done.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks everyone for the playtest and all the players who vote and play the map on public servers.
I've fixed the stuck spots and exo-traps which came up during playtest.
Made subtle changes to improve the flow of the map.
Also a few more changes...fixing broken rooms with broken stuff:
Made Computer Lab more marine friendly.
Broken railing won't block bullets anymore and moved the middle server box more into the wall to create more space:
Added more rocks and plants to Biodome and a broken window in the entrance so marines have a harder time shooting stuff inside and skulks have more cover to get out of the room:
Some more detailing in Ventilation plus all classes can get up on the right catwalk now via the 45° pillar and the curved pipes:
Made Laser Drilling more skulk friendly.
Skulks can walk below the laser now without getting hurt. More cover for skulks to move towards marines coming from Control:
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited April 2017
Some notable changes of the recent updates aside from detailing and adding a few more cover and ambush spots:
-Marines can no longer get into Scanning -> Ore Extraction vent without help of another marine or structure.
This was just too strong, it already feels like Marines are everywhere on this map, and I might even remove Marine Access completely in the future, if necessary.
-Detailed a lot of vents and made them more alien friendly. Reduced line of sight, added cover or ambush spots. Fades are able to blink-hop through most of them.
Especially the vent leading from Generator into Ventilation was very frustrating for aliens and gave marines another easy way into the hive room.
If you wanna vote and play the map on public server, I've found your best chance is the 8bitgamers servers, since more regulars vote for it there.
Comments
..I guess i just try it.
It's only the left wall and right pillars which is easy to check and punish.
Sorry for being difficult.
It's fine if you want to keep it as is for a strong marine natural.
This goes right into your chart
It doesn't help in an engagement, just for ambush which you can check, so i guess I make the ceiling higher.
Ultimately, the best thing to do is just play the damned map, see how it feels.
-Added more rock cover to Biodome, so you can't shoot the hive from outside (you can still hit one arm tho)
-Smoothed floor in Biodome for better structure placement (Trees take space, but arent shown in commander view, so remember their position; gorge tunnels still make trouble, just like in Cave in Mineshaft; they hate displacement geo apparently)
-Visual improvements to Cargo, Shipping and Tram Tunnels
-Removed the tram+container prop at the marine entrance of Shipping (was kinda a death trap, not enough open space)
http://rr.tacticalgamer.com/Replay
@Wyzcrak : Thanks for the replays! Very valueable feedback and fun to watch. I laughed hard when you tried to go through the rocky vent to furnace as gorge and paniced because of the lava pool.
The Map is similar to Veil, so I'm hoping to pull off the layout as it is.
I'm still balancing and improving the map, so I would appreciate, if you kept Furnace as possible Alien Start for now. It's also supposed to be the best hive to hold Cargo doubleres at start.
I've made a few improvements for Furnace hive tho:
-Added more pipes to Smelting Room and changed their height so its easier to get up there and navigate between pipes
-Shortened the diagonal part of the vent leading into Ore Scanner so skulks can get closer to the exit before being spotted
(still enough time for marines building the power node hopefully)
-Detailed corridor between Lava Catwalk and Ore Scanner, more cover for skulks and the bucket blocks the vent entrance
I've added another vent entrance into Cargo and increased the Ceiling. The new vent should help aliens starting in Biodome or Ventilation
I'm thinking about another vent somewhere between Biodome and Ventilation so marines can't block Water Treatment too easily.
There might also be a problem with aliens being locked in into Biodome too easily, but might just be aliens not using the vent system to flank properly.
The only thing that made me a bit uncomfortable was how narrow some of the thresholds between some rooms are. I'll have to go back and make specific notes of which ones I'm referring to. K actually I looked real quick at the overlay in archie's vid. I kind of feel like... all room thresholds are a bit narrow. Very easy for skulk pouncing since there's not much room to take wide corners to avoid this.
Other than that, I need to play on it more, but seems like it could be an easy mapvote pick at this point for me
Also glad when ppl can see through stomps and unbalanced teams instead of jumping to balance conclusions.
I'll think about the room connections and what I can do.
I think we need some ambient sounds.
Generator noise, lava flow. Bird songs in biodome )). Any ideas?
It's too quiet now.
So 2 ways on how to deal with that.
Option 1: Move the cargo RTs out of cargo, 1 into Water treatment and the other one into Generator. This would create natural RTs for aliens and help them establish a res game
Option 2: Completely remove the 2 lanes that lead from marine naturals to cargo. (Tram Tunnels and not sure what it is called on the other side). This will make the layout very similar to veil. Marines need way longer to get there and a commitment from aliens to take and hold cargo is a valid possibility then
It was 2 pretty clear marine wins. The map overall feels oversized, many rooms are very big and many line of sights are extremely long. Cargo is too easy for marines to get, one reason Veil works is because marines have a long way to go to get Nano. I don't really like double RT rooms and would prefer the two RTs spread out, but that is my personal opinion only. However that room makes it too easy for marines too hold too much res and that leaves Aliens in a difficult position, especially because they only have one natural RT.
Also I noticed the Biodome RT is way too easy snipeable from Water Treatment.
The map has potential though.
As for the rooms feeling too big, I ran around the map and It seems to me that the rooms are fine when it comes to size, but there just isn't enough in there yet, there is a lot of open space that feels like it would need some macro-geometry or extra propping etc. (which I assumed you already knew, with this being so early into the maps creation process)
As for the layout, in high level play this is very marine sided, even in relatively low skill pubs it is still pretty marine OP. It all seems to come down to how fast marines take and hold cargo.
I think that the res node position will make it too easy for skulks to bite the resource tower and get out without consequences, making the 'res bite skulk vs marine recapper'-game boring
Like this is pretty much how it will play out most of the time:
The marine is noticed from too far away and the skulk gets to exit too easily. Usually biting an RT is somewhat of an commitment, that puts the skulk in a bad position. When a marine enters the room while you're still at the resource tower, he should have the possibility to kill you.
The way it is right now, you never have to commit to biting and because of how exposed the room is, you don't really have the option to fight either.
I'd suggest to move the res node more to the south and add some view cover, so that the entering marine can't immediately shoot the skulk as he tries get away from the RT
And I wanted to try the ns1 setup first in this room.
You are right tho that this rooms gameplay is kinda straight forward and boring and I'm all for making it more fun.
I'll think about your node placement, it seems good. And I'm planning to shorten Laser Drilling anyway, because right now you can view entities disappear from Access entrance due to the view limit of 1500? units.
Did I see it right that there is no hidingspot at the top of the complab like in ns1?
I've added a lot more cover, ambush spots and vents to the map to help Aliens.
I would love to add more starting cysts, so Aliens need less cysts to expand at start, but there is a range limit to them right now.
Blocking the tram tunnels corridor completly to increase travel time for Marines to Cargo will be a last resort for the future, if nothing else works out.
New Res node layout, since this map was just too marine friendly!
-Added Ventilation Access location and res node between Biodome and Ventilation
-Added res node in Ore Extraction between Furnace and Ventilation
-Removed one res node in Cargo (former double-res);
might remove the other node, too, but I want this room to have some action.
Overview:
..or check workshop link for pics and overview:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=859097492
Apparently I broke this thread lmao.
Screenshots can also be found at the workshop link:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=859097492
I've fixed the stuck spots and exo-traps which came up during playtest.
Made subtle changes to improve the flow of the map.
Also a few more changes...fixing broken rooms with broken stuff:
Made Computer Lab more marine friendly.
Broken railing won't block bullets anymore and moved the middle server box more into the wall to create more space:
Added more rocks and plants to Biodome and a broken window in the entrance so marines have a harder time shooting stuff inside and skulks have more cover to get out of the room:
Some more detailing in Ventilation plus all classes can get up on the right catwalk now via the 45° pillar and the curved pipes:
Made Laser Drilling more skulk friendly.
Skulks can walk below the laser now without getting hurt. More cover for skulks to move towards marines coming from Control:
-Marines can no longer get into Scanning -> Ore Extraction vent without help of another marine or structure.
This was just too strong, it already feels like Marines are everywhere on this map, and I might even remove Marine Access completely in the future, if necessary.
-Detailed a lot of vents and made them more alien friendly. Reduced line of sight, added cover or ambush spots. Fades are able to blink-hop through most of them.
Especially the vent leading from Generator into Ventilation was very frustrating for aliens and gave marines another easy way into the hive room.
If you wanna vote and play the map on public server, I've found your best chance is the 8bitgamers servers, since more regulars vote for it there.