The "no Hive Ping Of Death".
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
This was discussed after it was introduced but I think that the experience of it now warrants a new one. Personally I didn't have much against it when it was first implemented, although I was a bit negative, now I just plain think it stinks.
The idea behind it was to eliminate the time wasted at the end trying to find the last camping alien after the hive(s) were killed, well, it didn't. An alien with regen or a D chamber nearby will still survive indefinetely after the last hive goes down.
What is the real difference then? The alien comebacks are made much harder, bordering on impossible. Now a gorge needs to be either near a D chamber that is actually placed IN a hive spot or have regen, which isn't very likely (I don't know of any gorge that uses regen).
The countdown sound also ruins the chances of getting the hive up without marines knowing. If the pinging stops or doesn't start, the marines know there's another hive building.
Since the JP+HMG rush is now so popular this implementation is shown at it's weakest. When it was implemented in 1.03 the tactics used looked a lot different. Usually the last hive would go down to either siege or HA who would actually secure the hive. Now you get a couple of jetbo's who fly in, kill the hive, and if the pinging doesn't start move off to search for the next one.
I suggest you just make it so that all the aliens die immediatly or after a certain time once the last hive is down, or remove this part completely (my favored option). In my opnion it doesn't add anything to the game at the moment (if the last living alien isn't trying to get a hive up or do something an admin can just slay him or his team can just F4 anyway), only takes away from it.
The idea behind it was to eliminate the time wasted at the end trying to find the last camping alien after the hive(s) were killed, well, it didn't. An alien with regen or a D chamber nearby will still survive indefinetely after the last hive goes down.
What is the real difference then? The alien comebacks are made much harder, bordering on impossible. Now a gorge needs to be either near a D chamber that is actually placed IN a hive spot or have regen, which isn't very likely (I don't know of any gorge that uses regen).
The countdown sound also ruins the chances of getting the hive up without marines knowing. If the pinging stops or doesn't start, the marines know there's another hive building.
Since the JP+HMG rush is now so popular this implementation is shown at it's weakest. When it was implemented in 1.03 the tactics used looked a lot different. Usually the last hive would go down to either siege or HA who would actually secure the hive. Now you get a couple of jetbo's who fly in, kill the hive, and if the pinging doesn't start move off to search for the next one.
I suggest you just make it so that all the aliens die immediatly or after a certain time once the last hive is down, or remove this part completely (my favored option). In my opnion it doesn't add anything to the game at the moment (if the last living alien isn't trying to get a hive up or do something an admin can just slay him or his team can just F4 anyway), only takes away from it.
Comments
was placed there because some damn idiots keep hiding somewhere, not allow himself to die, and/or do nothing while hes alive BUT hide.
there was this one guy in version 1... he singlehandedly revived the kharaa. pity the fools who f4ed. that match was kewl...
too bad we lost. his effort was wasted...
On a completely unrelated note, back in the early days of 1.01 or was it 1.02? Anyway, the marines had nailed our hive early on and we had sensory. The only surviving player, who was a gorge, had sensory first. He was cloaked in sewer vestibule near the hive on caged. I dont know about you, but, the marines were not only bumping INTO him, but had actually jumped OVER him as well!
Needless to say, the hive was back up in 10 minutes or so and victory was ours by the end of the match. Ping Of death removes such comebacks entirely which is unfair <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Side Note: Shouldn't this be in Suggestions and Ideas?
I mean, a marine can fly around in his jetpack and still do things to prolong the game to hell...
Maybe instead of having them change the game so you can survive with no hives, you work on getting better so that you don't lose a hive in the first place?
But to be honest, ever since it was added I can't remeber ever seeing a come back past the first hive finishing. The beeping is basically a death sentence, I have never won a game after hearing it.
And I didn't put it in Suggestions since I wanted to discuss it and I think it is a semi-important issue, one that could be "solved" easily. If a Mod thinks it should go in Suggestions however, it is fine by me.
A marine with NO CHANCE WHAT-SO-EVER of rebuilding a base without a CC, can go and hide in a vent until the aliens get, (usually at Hive3), sensory chambers up, (THE ENEMEY APPROACHES!), and PRAY that the remaining marine is hurt so Scent of Fear actually tracks him. Meanwhile, the Gorg/Skulk, that survives hive death and can, given enough time and resource flow, (and with the Alien Resource Pool that little fatty can build fast!), get a hive defended and building in a matter of minutes. (Pre Ping-Of-Death, this was almost, dare I say, common? I know I've seen my share.)
Now the lazy marines go kill the BIG FAT UNMOVING HIVE, (usually 1 JP/HMG will do), and sit back and wait. What the heck are all those fancy toys for tracking/killing aliens for when an army of knives would do the job?
And MAKE OFFENSE CHAMBERS A 0 HIVE STRUCTURE. It's useless to try and make a comeback and put up a hive just to have one LA/LMG marine that was aimlessly wandering find you and kill you cuz you cant do anything but sit and wait for it to build.
however, as you said, to help with the comeback-strategy, i think the noise should be removed but the damage remains.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i very much think the damage is neccessary, because one afk cloaked skulk could cause an hour and a half of grief for both teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As previously stated there are not one, but <b>several</b> solutions to this:
1. Scanner sweeps (they now work on Linux servers as well).
2. The alien team f4's.
3. An admin slays/kicks him.
I would actually hope that my above suggestion of Marines getting a simmilar achilles heel isn't implemented. Lately it's become something of a sport for the marines to hide when they have lost, and for the aliens to track him down and get the last kill. Sometimes he is just cornered and parasited/babblered/healsprayed to death to the amusement of the people in the dead-room. This is not (to me) a game-spoiler but a humourus end to a (sometimes) straining game, and a sometimes needed emotional release. The same would go for the surviving alien if the Alien team OR admin felt like giving him a chance.
And yes, OC's should be a 0-hive structure, I agree completely. That would make Alien comebacks more reasonable and since they aren't tied to a hive like the upgrade chambers it seems logical.
But I do have one thing to add and that a skulk with regeneration and NO D chambers nearby can still live. Try it, the ping subtracts 6 health and you heal 7. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
With the ability to f4 to the readyroom to end a game, there is little to no point of continuing to punish aliens for being #$% back in 1.01.
Ping of death is a death sentence, and the only way to beat it is already SUPER-WELL-UBER LIEEETTTTTT hive location(s), or dumb#$% marines who will win anyways due to the "ping of death."
Why smite the righteous for what the evil hath done?
If it stays, I say we should start a campaign to make marines with no CC (either imaginary (unbuilt) or real (built)) suffer the ping of death. Otherwise it'll just be a matter of time before they lose anyway, right? (see my point?)
And this 'well duh' statement applies to this conversion... how?!?
This doesn't affect anything anyone has said yet, hon. :-) Think first, post second. =^.^=
Seriously. The no-hive-kill is just in there to cover for Comms who are either too stupid or lazy to just Sensor Sweep. If ANYTHING, I'd rather see the Marines get tossed if they lose all their CCs, as they can't build anything and are more likely to get whomped away. ANY Alien can eventually go Gorge and put up a Hive, given hidey-time or an abundane of RP. They ALWAYS have a chance to come back... or did, until 1.04. Pre-1.04, I had a habit of being a psycho-Gorge and sneaking into an undefended Hive (Marines were all too busy spawncamping the living hive, and trying to take it down) to toss it up. They'd assume that all we had were the few remaining people, until they noticed us respawning. TWO times, of all those that I'd done this, we brought it back for a win. The other times, people were just ecstatic to be back in the game.. a thumb-the-nose-at-'em feeling, and we did DAMAGE before we died.
Being brought back from the brink does wonders for desparation, and even the rawest Alien team will realize 'Almost just went down.. time to pull together and hit them HARD'. It's.. it *was* one of the most fun parts of the game.
In short, no-hive-autokill needs to be taken back out. Moving it to a server-side variable wouldn't work, as the Marines would still go 'oops, no beep!' and sweep through the other Hives, with 1.04 instinct still going strong. Seriously.. it should never have been put in to begin with.
Before: an alien could hide waiting for res to build a hive
After: an alien sits near DCs and he can't move.
Aliens still wait trying to remain alive... but now they waut near DCs...
Just remove it, it's THE 1.03 feature that disappointed me.
Who knows, maybe if they had carried on pushing the marines they can change the tide of the game, mainly happens on pub. servers obviously.
Marines... No.
Aliens... Yes.
So why do the aliens have the ping of death?
In my opinion, there should be no ping of death for either side.
Or: When there are no CCs or IPs left, the marines slowly die (the alien bacteria kills them as the CC controls the nanites, no nanites, no protection from bacteria)
That would counter marines who run off and hide after their base is destroyed. To counter aliens, anything other than a gorge takes damage, including structures. (Damage stops when the hive begins to be built). This would stop most lamers hiding as skulks, as it would do health only damage, bypassing armour.
And I will restate, if there are lamers holding up the game it's a simple matter of the alien team pressing F4 to end their lameness...
Marines... No.
Aliens... Yes.
So why do the aliens have the ping of death?
In my opinion, there should be no ping of death for either side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Merines Can Come back trust me, ive been in a game were we JP rushed them and they destroyed our CC while we were on the rush, we just took out there hive and shot down teh rest of em. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but yes the Ping of Death should be removed because:
its just plain annoying
it should be kept because:
stops n00b campers at the end of the game just hiding and slowing down the game
The ping of death was to cover for marine teams who didn't know the map and their tools very well. Even if the last alien somehow maintains cloak---all the marine team must do is build observatories everywhere (I think a lot of marine teams forget that part).
As for the alien comeback-vs-Marine comeback...
An important difference is that the marines make comebacks by being prepared--by having two CCs and Infantry portals at each location, or by using the observatory distress beacon, etc.
The alien comeback is essentially a post-disaster comeback--they can't prepare for it like the marines can, since they are limited in their hive locations.
These two methods really balance out, and I think that any kind of auto-kill is unnecessary. Ideally the (bored) dead members of the losing team will F4 and this will usually result in a game win because of teamsize concession.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>edit:</i> I was just thinking. Maybe a ~5 minute period where there is no damage to Aliens after all hives are killed? That would make it possible for the Gorge to get a hive up without dying, and all alive Skulks could defend him. I dunno, just a thought.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->IF (players_in_ready-room >= players_in_game)
IF (alien_hives = 0) THEN MARINE_WIN
IF (command_consoles = 0) THEN ALIEN_WIN
ENDIF
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
This allows games to end by concensus on both sides. The problem with relying on the current F4 behaviour is that nearly equal numbers of people on both sides might get bored, in which case the normal concession code won't kick in.
With that rule in place, I see no need for the ping-o-death. As I said when it was first put it, it would encourage marine rushing behaviour, as they know that if they can just get the hive down aliens are nearly instantly dead. And since then lone (perpetually hovering <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->) marines JP rushing taking down hives has become almost the norm, encouraged by the ping.
And as for the ping noise being audible to marines? I mean, come on. That's absurd. They do not deserve that level of intelligence (ie information, not the opposite of stupidity <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ).