I left NS a while ago, at first being lost in the maps kept me going, I wasn't going to let a map have me. Whem I learned the maps, comming kept me going, after that, team work, after that, screwing around, and then, boom, I played my last good game of NS. It was really fun to be that one fat belly gorge that won the game. I really don't enjoy NS anymore, because it's repetative. I rather prefer PVK.
The main server I play on, which used to be absolutely packed to the 24 player limit at all hours has been D-E-A-D for at least the last week, the biggest game I've seen recently was about 6 on 6. Very depressing <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now part of it was apparently due to a new HLDS coming out and screwing everything up as far as plugins and such, however like many other players, I'm finding that teams always play exactly the same style in 1.04 so there's just not as much challenge as when people were learning new tactics and such in earlier versions.
Its true that some tactics have become a standard like jp/hmg rush and d/m/s and that they make the game predictable and hence boring. But thats because the options are limited. NS is a race against the clock, no against the 2. hive. The tech gap between 1 hive and 2 hive aliens is extreme and thats the reason only rush tactics make a marine win possible. Some points because marines normaly loose against 2. hive aliens:
a.) Resources For a marine team its impossible to protect rt once the aliens have fades because turrets are useless against them. The comm can only be at one spot at a time to health spam but the aliens usually attack on many fronts so the comm has to decide if he wants to focus on the base or the res.(Its clear he must choose the base or its all over) So the aliens slowly starve the marines to death denying them the only effective counter to fades namely HA+welder (HA/HMG(GL)/welder combos cannot be given out fast enough with 1 res node to keep the game balanced)
b.) Umbra If used right umbra is like invincibility. A group of some skulks and a lerk can rip a marine outpost apart easily if the lerk umbras the outpost and the skulks are smart enough to stay inside the cloud. Grenadelaunchers are the only effective weapon against umbra but are so expensive you rarley see one. (mostly because of point a)
c.) Healing Aliens can hold positions much better than marines once they have 2. hive. Usually they build some wol´s outside the marine base ensuring constant pressure from fades and lerks and preventing the marines from expanding. DC´s are like an IP outside your hive with 0secs respawn rate since its nearly impossible to push the fades back if they have wol support.(They wont let you build a siege if they have at least 1 brain cell)
Summary: 99% of the time marines loose because once the aliens have 2 hives they loose all the rs nodes and then its basic marine vs. upgraded fades. And we all know how that ends <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> So NS is all about overrunning the enemy team before they reach high tech and the results are jp rushes and the other few well known tactics we all played to death.
thats only a problem in small games. big games like 10 vs 10 or more, the com can assign marines to defend their Restowers from skulks. you really don't need but 1 guy to guard each spot if he has good aim. The com is responsible for finding nearby marines and waypointing them to defend the restower when it does fall under attack. like sending in reinforments.
When you com, think of playing Command and Conquer, don't care about player feeling or sending them to their deaths to accomplish a goal. make sure your team know your orders are serious and are for the good of the team.
If you have a squad of 3 marines and you know one is a noob/is a poor shot, order that one to knife the alien res tower or build the marine RT, order the other 2 marines to stand ground and cover the builder. Marines have to be aggressive to win.
I'm still playing about 3-4 hours of NS every day, not boring yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm still playing about 3-4 hours of NS every day, not boring yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen brother <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I play ns with my clan at least 2-3 good full-length matches a day, I never get bored of having a match where everyone is playing a well coordinated fight =)
So what if he joined the forum so late? That doesn't mean anything... He could be playing NS right from the beginning (i've just seend such a guy today).
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
edited May 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--RPG_Jssmfulhud+May 11 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RPG_Jssmfulhud @ May 11 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So what if he joined the forum so late? That doesn't mean anything... He could be playing NS right from the beginning (i've just seend such a guy today).
So don't make speculations you can't prove. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't mind if he joined late.
I just got bored too. I haven't played in quite a while. I played what I call my last good game and called it quits. I will probably DL the new NS and give it a try but the moment I get bored it off to some other MOD or game. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
There are three sayings constantly accompanying game development since it began with 'Pong': "This'll never work.", "People won't like it.", and "Make it bigger and louder!". Innovation usually stems from people ignoring all three of these remarks, yet, I see a constant repetition of them in here.
NS 1.0x is getting boring? So what? It was the first time people tried this, what did you expect? A perfect first shot? When have you seen a truly innovative game that was flawless on the first try?
Before the release, I saw a lot of posts by people who tried to prove that the whole concept - an FPS/RTS hybrid, asymmetric teams and so on, was internally flawed and bound to fail. Others complained about the sci-fi setting and stated that it would keep NS from gaining ground. Even others (and they're still around) complained when the low number of marine equipment got known. They wanted more guns, more explosions, more features - the whole wash.
Now, I read similiar suspicions about 1.1. Wait and see. The patch won't be perfect - far from it, but I can guarantee you that if we released the bugged, incomplete version we test right now, you'd already be forced to agree that it <i>is</i> possible to make multiple tactics viable, that NS <i>will</i> become as popular as it was, and that <i>no</i> big amounts of additional stuff were necessary.
Because people <i>see</i> how effective it is, they say to themselves "Jetpack rush is teh r0x0rz!" and they do it, which in turn makes other people do it.
You can begin to see the downward spiral. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
With 1.1 it will [hopefully] stop the JP being "so" good...
But then others say it'll be the counter to onos, which gives me the hebee jebees. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> (nothing should trump a onos but teamwork)
<!--QuoteBegin--XenoMorF+May 10 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XenoMorF @ May 10 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just to defend myself here after saying that, lol... i meant it will get teadious just like v1.04 , the diversity of tactics is utter rubbish , there is no such thing.. clans will find the best way and stick to it --- Its impossible to have more then 1 tactic that works 100% all the time , but there will be some that are close enough
its just a matter of time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMGz your right! that's why no RTS's ever get past the first stage of development, all the devs know that eventually only one tactic will EVER be used competitivley, so they j0st givez UP!
Seriously though, you need to do some research, play some "real" RTS's made by professional devs, those are the games NS is modeling itself around.
Just because NS hasn't gotten it quite right first time, no need to condem them to a fate of death and destruction. It's called a mod for a reason.
Also, lets not forget that we are only at NS v1.1. Not too long ago version 1.0 came out. This MOD still needs lots of play testing, when it becomes very well balanced Valve will make it retail.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->when it becomes very well balanced Valve will make it retail. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. There is by no means any guarantee Valve would want to buy NS. 2. Even if they do, there is no guarantee Flayra will sell NS. 3. Many people don't want Valve's involvment for good reason. 4. Why would Valve want to buy NS and market it on the HL engine with HL2 coming out soon?
<!--QuoteBegin--Scarface121+May 11 2003, 02:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scarface121 @ May 11 2003, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 4. Why would Valve want to buy NS and market it on the HL engine with HL2 coming out soon? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know why, but I got an image of Mr.Burns as the head of Valve saying, "Squeeze every last penny out of them, Smithers!" when I read that.
I think interest is waning and new folks taking up the game is becoming less and less viable.. it may just be that all the servers I ping well to and play on regularly are the only incidents but I'm seeing more and more use of config alterations to speed up the rate of fire on marine weapons, heavy use of silent bunny hopping and these usually incite allegations of hacking or botting and servers once full of 18 people suddenly dissipate down to 6.. it's heavily annoying as a commander to see some guy silent b-hop into the hive and proceed to snipe every single alien team member without taking a scratch or wasting a single bullet - the best I can do is refuse health and ammo but even that isn't enough, the minutes that go by without expansion are devastating to their economy and the game is easily within grasp.. Meanwhile I'm globally chatting the other team explaining that I don't condone his actions and that they should notice I'm not supporting him with ammo or health. Then, when his ammo does run dry, he starts to shoot at the next spawned skulk and you hear, like, 8 clicks of an empty gun's trigger faster than a normal human being can typically click a mouse.
It's too rare that I'm in a game where everyone plays "straight up" anymore, and then, when confronting them in the ready room, they have the nerve to take up attitude and say "Fine, if you want a straight game, we'll play one." to which I say "This isn't implied?!?!" Without total agreement from all players ( as if this would happen in a pub game ) before the game starts that binds/scripts/hacks are allowed then you SHOULDN'T USE THEM - don't make folks talk you down off them as if playing a "straight" game is something they should have to fight for - have some common courtesy.
I suppose hackers will be hackers and yes, it IS just a fact of life and it IS just a game.. however, it does make it tough to want to play NS for the time being..
I agree the options are limited, by peoples imagination, not the game. Since there are still new tactics and counters evolving (on some servers) the only conclusion to any complaint about NS being boring is that:
- The people are boring -
I will say this again, since so many obviosuly still have not grasped it. The way YOU play NS is not "the only way" to play NS. Period. You may THINK that there is only one way to win or whatever, or that a certain tactic is ubeatable, that does not make it so. If you claim you have never lost with a X-tactic, I will say that you play against bad aliens/marines. A couple of months ago people were screaming that Cargo relocation on nothing was impossible to beat, now it has a 90% failure rate and no-one hardly does it anymore.
If you could JUST get over this uncreative and simplistic mindset you would be having so much more fun...
Oh, and it does take an amount of maturity. If you can't handle losing, don't try new strategies. If you can't get people to work together towards a common goal or sacrifice themself for the team, don't try new strategies. If you want to get bored by the game and then whine about it, don't try new strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin--XenoMorF+May 10 2003, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XenoMorF @ May 10 2003, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its like being in a room locked up for 3 months with 1 movie -- Its getting old fast! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's such a shame that we're getting sick of such a god damn good movie.
I have faith that 1.1 will get us all back into it.
Hmm, lets list some strats, and there counter/non-counter ability.
1- JP/HMG rush: Very hard to counter unless the alien team is completely expecting it to happen. If the aliens plan for JP/HMG, they'll soon find 2 hives locked-down with turrets/phase/seige. (Murphy's Laws)
2- Mine rush: I'll explain this one first, since its far less common. Basicly, everyone gets mines...rushes to hive, mines the CRAP out of a location, puts armory there, mines more. Goes to other door (hive dependant) and repeats. 1-3 marines sit back and guard each exit, if mines blow up, they are replaced. Other marines hunt whatever got out (such as the gorge) while grabbing res nodes. Tech, slaughter. Counter ability? Damn hard. Especially if the mines are placed "correctly" and put on the ground...very hard to blow up with a gorge. Sometimes a good rush can get through the mines, but the mine locations are usually set up to allow the guarding marine time to fire off a full clip before he has to even worry.
3- Simple res rush. Half team stays in base and guards, the rest simply run out and grab every single res node on the map, maybe send someone to the hive as well to keep'em occupied. Res will flow in like water, lvl 2 weapons/armor, JP/HMG, MT, etc etc to soon follow, march on hive, kill. If march fails, proceed with lockdown. Requires good skulks and good scouting to counter.
4- HA/Welder rush. Although still possible, its damn hard to do due to high cost. Although, if you res rush as well, its possible, and usually effective with medpack spam. Usually takes the WHOLE team to counter, and that means no scouting, which means, marines tech, and eventually walk all over you.
5- Phase Rush. Setup a phase outside the hive, rush the hive till it dies. Everything depends on how long that phase is alive, so taking is down is critical. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4.
6- Hive Rush/Spawn Camp. Basicly the same as a phase rush, but you get weapon/armor upgrades instead of the phase, and getting yourself killed is MUCH worse. This is less effective than a phase rush most of the time, because if it fails, you are back to square one. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4. No way to fight a spawn camp, none at all, especially not with multiple marines.
Those are the basic marine strats, the ones that "work" anyway. Now, feel free to shotgun rush (personally, can't STAND the shotgun), or seige rush (yawn), or...any other form of rush.
Alien strats are a bit more boring.
1- D/M/S. Basicly required in order to combat marine rushes. Straying from this usually ends in a loss, and a bunch of angry alien players.
2- Gorge rush. Seen it in action, never seen it WORK. Because while you are doing that, the hive dies, and you die...the hive killers live, and thats that.
3- Skulk rush. 50% luck/50% noob marines. Quickest way to end a game. Marines always see this coming in some shape or form, and now a days, its usually counter rushed with a spawn camp. Use at your own risk.
4- Perch and wait. This can be pretty damn effective...unless the marines are smart, in which case, you quickly notice marines have two hives.
5- 2nd hive rush. Probably the BEST thing aliens can do. Since 2nd hive is basicly THAT important that unless the marine team is horrible, you can't win without fades.
Did I miss anything? You'll notice sometime important here...everything is a RUSH! Its all about catching the other team off-guard to win the game. Hopefully 1.1 will make NS more about strategy and less about rushing. Why is C&C Red Alert (1 or 2) better than StarCraft? C&C has strategy, StarCraft is about rushing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is C&C Red Alert (1 or 2) better than StarCraft? C&C has strategy, StarCraft is about rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG, i can only surrender to that brilliant argumentation. Thank you Zenn.
<!--QuoteBegin--Draconis+May 11 2003, 09:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ May 11 2003, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is C&C Red Alert (1 or 2) better than StarCraft? C&C has strategy, StarCraft is about rushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG, i can only surrender to that brilliant argumentation. Thank you Zenn.
And btw, read more carefully what Stoneburg said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hated c and c red alert. Starcraft required much more stratatgy. Unless you played limitless money maps all day like big game hunters. Other maps required careful use of units.
mucho money maps are fun for like a day, but to truly enjoy SC (escpecially since a lot of ppl out there are pros) you have to buckle down and play the ladder maps. sucking isnt fun, but it pays off when you practice alot. and yah, C&C anything sucks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1- JP/HMG rush: Very hard to counter unless the alien team is completely expecting it to happen. If the aliens plan for JP/HMG, they'll soon find 2 hives locked-down with turrets/phase/seige. (Murphy's Laws)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you see a Proto Lab and not many other structures, you know JP (with or without HMG) is coming. So unless you have no-one go into MB you will know about this. I guess on a server where the Aliens don't communicate this wouldn't be the case, but if they don't communicate they should/will lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2- Mine rush: I'll explain this one first, since its far less common. Basicly, everyone gets mines...rushes to hive, mines the CRAP out of a location, puts armory there, mines more. Goes to other door (hive dependant) and repeats. 1-3 marines sit back and guard each exit, if mines blow up, they are replaced. Other marines hunt whatever got out (such as the gorge) while grabbing res nodes. Tech, slaughter. Counter ability? Damn hard. Especially if the mines are placed "correctly" and put on the ground...very hard to blow up with a gorge. Sometimes a good rush can get through the mines, but the mine locations are usually set up to allow the guarding marine time to fire off a full clip before he has to even worry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two "counters" I guess. You shouldn't let the Marines get close enough in the first place, let them build an armory either for that matter. If you did, get a gorge or better, two, to spit on the mines. As soon as there is an opening skulks go through, supported by gorges healing them, to chew the armory. If you are on the "outside" of the screen you should try to stay alive and hunt resources.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3- Simple res rush. Half team stays in base and guards, the rest simply run out and grab every single res node on the map, maybe send someone to the hive as well to keep'em occupied. Res will flow in like water, lvl 2 weapons/armor, JP/HMG, MT, etc etc to soon follow, march on hive, kill. If march fails, proceed with lockdown. Requires good skulks and good scouting to counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Never seen this work when half the team stays in base though... when the whole team is out, it usually works, respawn + mines take care of the base defense. ANyway, the way you describe it, the skulks should be able to take down the res nodes before they make a profit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4- HA/Welder rush. Although still possible, its damn hard to do due to high cost. Although, if you res rush as well, its possible, and usually effective with medpack spam. Usually takes the WHOLE team to counter, and that means no scouting, which means, marines tech, and eventually walk all over you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehhh.. yeah.. it IS hard to counter end-game tech with 1:hive aliens.. so? Against 2:hive aliens with at least some res, I have not seen this work (and I have seen it several times).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5- Phase Rush. Setup a phase outside the hive, rush the hive till it dies. Everything depends on how long that phase is alive, so taking is down is critical. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haven't seen this work since 1.03.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6- Hive Rush/Spawn Camp. Basicly the same as a phase rush, but you get weapon/armor upgrades instead of the phase, and getting yourself killed is MUCH worse. This is less effective than a phase rush most of the time, because if it fails, you are back to square one. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4. No way to fight a spawn camp, none at all, especially not with multiple marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah well, there's no way to fight 5 skulks chewing on your IP either, moral: Don't let the enemy establish in your base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1- D/M/S. Basicly required in order to combat marine rushes. Straying from this usually ends in a loss, and a bunch of angry alien players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, D/M/S is indeed the best choice in 99.9% of the cases. This IS a tad boring. Sensory games are more fun, but ends in losses, Movement works though, but is still harder then D.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2- Gorge rush. Seen it in action, never seen it WORK. Because while you are doing that, the hive dies, and you die...the hive killers live, and thats that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seen this work several times. 1 RT, when 2 people have 25 res they gorge up, they and original gorge drops a D, rest either stays skulk or goes gorge and joins the rush. Best result is usually with 4-5 gorges and the rest skulks. Very much fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3- Skulk rush. 50% luck/50% noob marines. Quickest way to end a game. Marines always see this coming in some shape or form, and now a days, its usually counter rushed with a spawn camp. Use at your own risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mjeh. Almost impossible against a decent Marine team, except on ns_bast and ns_caged.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4- Perch and wait. This can be pretty damn effective...unless the marines are smart, in which case, you quickly notice marines have two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh? Is this a "tactic".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5- 2nd hive rush. Probably the BEST thing aliens can do. Since 2nd hive is basicly THAT important that unless the marine team is horrible, you can't win without fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This usually fails against good/aggressive Marine teams, I prefer double-gorging, more res, and OC/DC at choke-points/hives, THEN a 2:nd hive.
I shouldn't have wasted my time typing all this, you didn't get what my post(s) was about as far as I can tell. I can only say that it's sad that people think the game is as limited as this. Also, why the fascination with:
1 - Calling everything a "rush" 2 - Trying to fit every tactic into a simplified "genre"
If you weren't trying to divide everything into an easily describable folder then you wouldn't miss out on the nuances and variations. The game is best played when both teams use lots of teamwork and communication, perform quick counter-tactics (5 Marines in Cargo - hit MB, Proto in base - lerk up).
Just played two excellent games as Alien where Marines went for JP/HMG. We countered with Lerks and Gorges in the hive, while the skulks kept doing their job (ie: harass marines and kill undefended structures). After 3 failed JP/HMG attempts Marines switched tactics and we had to adapt again, now that is fun. The game lasted a good 30-40 minutes.
Seems like the game is played very differently on different servers, makes me more and more grateful that I get to play with our regulars and reservers, your kind of game does indeed sound boring.
Ps. Anyone who likes more diverse and creative games, PM me and I'll give you our IP.
I wonder if 1.04 is dead.... I wouldn't know, I stopped playing a month or so ago. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zenn+May 11 2003, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zenn @ May 11 2003, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is C&C Red Alert (1 or 2) better than StarCraft? C&C has strategy, StarCraft is about rushing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> HAHHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHH
ok I am done... that is why 10000 Koreans go spectate live a starcraft match... never see C and C do that...
Comments
The main server I play on, which used to be absolutely packed to the 24 player limit at all hours has been D-E-A-D for at least the last week, the biggest game I've seen recently was about 6 on 6. Very depressing <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now part of it was apparently due to a new HLDS coming out and screwing everything up as far as plugins and such, however like many other players, I'm finding that teams always play exactly the same style in 1.04 so there's just not as much challenge as when people were learning new tactics and such in earlier versions.
Just my $0.02.
a.) Resources
For a marine team its impossible to protect rt once the aliens have fades because turrets are useless against them. The comm can only be at one spot at a time to health spam but the aliens usually attack on many fronts so the comm has to decide if he wants to focus on the base or the res.(Its clear he must choose the base or its all over) So the aliens slowly starve the marines to death denying them the only effective counter to fades namely HA+welder (HA/HMG(GL)/welder combos cannot be given out fast enough with 1 res node to keep the game balanced)
b.) Umbra
If used right umbra is like invincibility. A group of some skulks and a lerk can rip a marine outpost apart easily if the lerk umbras the outpost and the skulks are smart enough to stay inside the cloud. Grenadelaunchers are the only effective weapon against umbra but are so expensive you rarley see one. (mostly because of point a)
c.) Healing
Aliens can hold positions much better than marines once they have 2. hive. Usually they build some wol´s outside the marine base ensuring constant pressure from fades and lerks and preventing the marines from expanding. DC´s are like an IP outside your hive with 0secs respawn rate since its nearly impossible to push the fades back if they have wol support.(They wont let you build a siege if they have at least 1 brain cell)
Summary: 99% of the time marines loose because once the aliens have 2 hives they loose all the rs nodes and then its basic marine vs. upgraded fades. And we all know how that ends <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> So NS is all about overrunning the enemy team before they reach high tech and the results are jp rushes and the other few well known tactics we all played to death.
When you com, think of playing Command and Conquer, don't care about player feeling or sending them to their deaths to accomplish a goal. make sure your team know your orders are serious and are for the good of the team.
If you have a squad of 3 marines and you know one is a noob/is a poor shot, order that one to knife the alien res tower or build the marine RT, order the other 2 marines to stand ground and cover the builder. Marines have to be aggressive to win.
I'm still playing about 3-4 hours of NS every day, not boring yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm still playing about 3-4 hours of NS every day, not boring yet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen brother <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So don't make speculations you can't prove.
So don't make speculations you can't prove. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind if he joined late.
Ever heard of April Fools joke (= 1st April)?
*sigh* I'm always misunderstood <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
"This'll never work.", "People won't like it.", and "Make it bigger and louder!". Innovation usually stems from people ignoring all three of these remarks, yet, I see a constant repetition of them in here.
NS 1.0x is getting boring? So what? It was the first time people tried this, what did you expect? A perfect first shot? When have you seen a truly innovative game that was flawless on the first try?
Before the release, I saw a lot of posts by people who tried to prove that the whole concept - an FPS/RTS hybrid, asymmetric teams and so on, was internally flawed and bound to fail. Others complained about the sci-fi setting and stated that it would keep NS from gaining ground. Even others (and they're still around) complained when the low number of marine equipment got known. They wanted more guns, more explosions, more features - the whole wash.
Now, I read similiar suspicions about 1.1. Wait and see.
The patch won't be perfect - far from it, but I can guarantee you that if we released the bugged, incomplete version we test right now, you'd already be forced to agree that it <i>is</i> possible to make multiple tactics viable, that NS <i>will</i> become as popular as it was, and that <i>no</i> big amounts of additional stuff were necessary.
Because people <i>see</i> how effective it is, they say to themselves "Jetpack rush is teh r0x0rz!" and they do it, which in turn makes other people do it.
You can begin to see the downward spiral. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
With 1.1 it will [hopefully] stop the JP being "so" good...
But then others say it'll be the counter to onos, which gives me the hebee jebees. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> (nothing should trump a onos but teamwork)
its just a matter of time <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMGz your right! that's why no RTS's ever get past the first stage of development, all the devs know that eventually only one tactic will EVER be used competitivley, so they j0st givez UP!
Seriously though, you need to do some research, play some "real" RTS's made by professional devs, those are the games NS is modeling itself around.
Just because NS hasn't gotten it quite right first time, no need to condem them to a fate of death and destruction. It's called a mod for a reason.
1. There is by no means any guarantee Valve would want to buy NS.
2. Even if they do, there is no guarantee Flayra will sell NS.
3. Many people don't want Valve's involvment for good reason.
4. Why would Valve want to buy NS and market it on the HL engine with HL2 coming out soon?
I don't know why, but I got an image of Mr.Burns as the head of Valve saying, "Squeeze every last penny out of them, Smithers!" when I read that.
I think interest is waning and new folks taking up the game is becoming less and less viable.. it may just be that all the servers I ping well to and play on regularly are the only incidents but I'm seeing more and more use of config alterations to speed up the rate of fire on marine weapons, heavy use of silent bunny hopping and these usually incite allegations of hacking or botting and servers once full of 18 people suddenly dissipate down to 6.. it's heavily annoying as a commander to see some guy silent b-hop into the hive and proceed to snipe every single alien team member without taking a scratch or wasting a single bullet - the best I can do is refuse health and ammo but even that isn't enough, the minutes that go by without expansion are devastating to their economy and the game is easily within grasp.. Meanwhile I'm globally chatting the other team explaining that I don't condone his actions and that they should notice I'm not supporting him with ammo or health. Then, when his ammo does run dry, he starts to shoot at the next spawned skulk and you hear, like, 8 clicks of an empty gun's trigger faster than a normal human being can typically click a mouse.
It's too rare that I'm in a game where everyone plays "straight up" anymore, and then, when confronting them in the ready room, they have the nerve to take up attitude and say "Fine, if you want a straight game, we'll play one." to which I say "This isn't implied?!?!" Without total agreement from all players ( as if this would happen in a pub game ) before the game starts that binds/scripts/hacks are allowed then you SHOULDN'T USE THEM - don't make folks talk you down off them as if playing a "straight" game is something they should have to fight for - have some common courtesy.
I suppose hackers will be hackers and yes, it IS just a fact of life and it IS just a game.. however, it does make it tough to want to play NS for the time being..
- The people are boring -
I will say this again, since so many obviosuly still have not grasped it. The way YOU play NS is not "the only way" to play NS. Period. You may THINK that there is only one way to win or whatever, or that a certain tactic is ubeatable, that does not make it so. If you claim you have never lost with a X-tactic, I will say that you play against bad aliens/marines. A couple of months ago people were screaming that Cargo relocation on nothing was impossible to beat, now it has a 90% failure rate and no-one hardly does it anymore.
If you could JUST get over this uncreative and simplistic mindset you would be having so much more fun...
Oh, and it does take an amount of maturity. If you can't handle losing, don't try new strategies. If you can't get people to work together towards a common goal or sacrifice themself for the team, don't try new strategies. If you want to get bored by the game and then whine about it, don't try new strategies.
It's such a shame that we're getting sick of such a god damn good movie.
I have faith that 1.1 will get us all back into it.
1- JP/HMG rush: Very hard to counter unless the alien team is completely expecting it to happen. If the aliens plan for JP/HMG, they'll soon find 2 hives locked-down with turrets/phase/seige. (Murphy's Laws)
2- Mine rush: I'll explain this one first, since its far less common. Basicly, everyone gets mines...rushes to hive, mines the CRAP out of a location, puts armory there, mines more. Goes to other door (hive dependant) and repeats. 1-3 marines sit back and guard each exit, if mines blow up, they are replaced. Other marines hunt whatever got out (such as the gorge) while grabbing res nodes. Tech, slaughter. Counter ability? Damn hard. Especially if the mines are placed "correctly" and put on the ground...very hard to blow up with a gorge. Sometimes a good rush can get through the mines, but the mine locations are usually set up to allow the guarding marine time to fire off a full clip before he has to even worry.
3- Simple res rush. Half team stays in base and guards, the rest simply run out and grab every single res node on the map, maybe send someone to the hive as well to keep'em occupied. Res will flow in like water, lvl 2 weapons/armor, JP/HMG, MT, etc etc to soon follow, march on hive, kill. If march fails, proceed with lockdown. Requires good skulks and good scouting to counter.
4- HA/Welder rush. Although still possible, its damn hard to do due to high cost. Although, if you res rush as well, its possible, and usually effective with medpack spam. Usually takes the WHOLE team to counter, and that means no scouting, which means, marines tech, and eventually walk all over you.
5- Phase Rush. Setup a phase outside the hive, rush the hive till it dies. Everything depends on how long that phase is alive, so taking is down is critical. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4.
6- Hive Rush/Spawn Camp. Basicly the same as a phase rush, but you get weapon/armor upgrades instead of the phase, and getting yourself killed is MUCH worse. This is less effective than a phase rush most of the time, because if it fails, you are back to square one. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4. No way to fight a spawn camp, none at all, especially not with multiple marines.
Those are the basic marine strats, the ones that "work" anyway. Now, feel free to shotgun rush (personally, can't STAND the shotgun), or seige rush (yawn), or...any other form of rush.
Alien strats are a bit more boring.
1- D/M/S. Basicly required in order to combat marine rushes. Straying from this usually ends in a loss, and a bunch of angry alien players.
2- Gorge rush. Seen it in action, never seen it WORK. Because while you are doing that, the hive dies, and you die...the hive killers live, and thats that.
3- Skulk rush. 50% luck/50% noob marines. Quickest way to end a game. Marines always see this coming in some shape or form, and now a days, its usually counter rushed with a spawn camp. Use at your own risk.
4- Perch and wait. This can be pretty damn effective...unless the marines are smart, in which case, you quickly notice marines have two hives.
5- 2nd hive rush. Probably the BEST thing aliens can do. Since 2nd hive is basicly THAT important that unless the marine team is horrible, you can't win without fades.
Did I miss anything? You'll notice sometime important here...everything is a RUSH! Its all about catching the other team off-guard to win the game. Hopefully 1.1 will make NS more about strategy and less about rushing. Why is C&C Red Alert (1 or 2) better than StarCraft? C&C has strategy, StarCraft is about rushing.
OMG, i can only surrender to that brilliant argumentation. Thank you Zenn.
And btw, read more carefully what Stoneburg said.
OMG, i can only surrender to that brilliant argumentation. Thank you Zenn.
And btw, read more carefully what Stoneburg said. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hated c and c red alert. Starcraft required much more stratatgy. Unless you played limitless money maps all day like big game hunters. Other maps required careful use of units.
If you see a Proto Lab and not many other structures, you know JP (with or without HMG) is coming. So unless you have no-one go into MB you will know about this. I guess on a server where the Aliens don't communicate this wouldn't be the case, but if they don't communicate they should/will lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2- Mine rush: I'll explain this one first, since its far less common. Basicly, everyone gets mines...rushes to hive, mines the CRAP out of a location, puts armory there, mines more. Goes to other door (hive dependant) and repeats. 1-3 marines sit back and guard each exit, if mines blow up, they are replaced. Other marines hunt whatever got out (such as the gorge) while grabbing res nodes. Tech, slaughter. Counter ability? Damn hard. Especially if the mines are placed "correctly" and put on the ground...very hard to blow up with a gorge. Sometimes a good rush can get through the mines, but the mine locations are usually set up to allow the guarding marine time to fire off a full clip before he has to even worry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two "counters" I guess. You shouldn't let the Marines get close enough in the first place, let them build an armory either for that matter. If you did, get a gorge or better, two, to spit on the mines. As soon as there is an opening skulks go through, supported by gorges healing them, to chew the armory. If you are on the "outside" of the screen you should try to stay alive and hunt resources.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3- Simple res rush. Half team stays in base and guards, the rest simply run out and grab every single res node on the map, maybe send someone to the hive as well to keep'em occupied. Res will flow in like water, lvl 2 weapons/armor, JP/HMG, MT, etc etc to soon follow, march on hive, kill. If march fails, proceed with lockdown. Requires good skulks and good scouting to counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never seen this work when half the team stays in base though... when the whole team is out, it usually works, respawn + mines take care of the base defense. ANyway, the way you describe it, the skulks should be able to take down the res nodes before they make a profit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4- HA/Welder rush. Although still possible, its damn hard to do due to high cost. Although, if you res rush as well, its possible, and usually effective with medpack spam. Usually takes the WHOLE team to counter, and that means no scouting, which means, marines tech, and eventually walk all over you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehhh.. yeah.. it IS hard to counter end-game tech with 1:hive aliens.. so? Against 2:hive aliens with at least some res, I have not seen this work (and I have seen it several times).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5- Phase Rush. Setup a phase outside the hive, rush the hive till it dies. Everything depends on how long that phase is alive, so taking is down is critical. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haven't seen this work since 1.03.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6- Hive Rush/Spawn Camp. Basicly the same as a phase rush, but you get weapon/armor upgrades instead of the phase, and getting yourself killed is MUCH worse. This is less effective than a phase rush most of the time, because if it fails, you are back to square one. If you start to get spawn-camped....f4. No way to fight a spawn camp, none at all, especially not with multiple marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah well, there's no way to fight 5 skulks chewing on your IP either, moral: Don't let the enemy establish in your base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1- D/M/S. Basicly required in order to combat marine rushes. Straying from this usually ends in a loss, and a bunch of angry alien players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, D/M/S is indeed the best choice in 99.9% of the cases. This IS a tad boring. Sensory games are more fun, but ends in losses, Movement works though, but is still harder then D.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2- Gorge rush. Seen it in action, never seen it WORK. Because while you are doing that, the hive dies, and you die...the hive killers live, and thats that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen this work several times. 1 RT, when 2 people have 25 res they gorge up, they and original gorge drops a D, rest either stays skulk or goes gorge and joins the rush. Best result is usually with 4-5 gorges and the rest skulks. Very much fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3- Skulk rush. 50% luck/50% noob marines. Quickest way to end a game. Marines always see this coming in some shape or form, and now a days, its usually counter rushed with a spawn camp. Use at your own risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mjeh. Almost impossible against a decent Marine team, except on ns_bast and ns_caged.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4- Perch and wait. This can be pretty damn effective...unless the marines are smart, in which case, you quickly notice marines have two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? Is this a "tactic".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5- 2nd hive rush. Probably the BEST thing aliens can do. Since 2nd hive is basicly THAT important that unless the marine team is horrible, you can't win without fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This usually fails against good/aggressive Marine teams, I prefer double-gorging, more res, and OC/DC at choke-points/hives, THEN a 2:nd hive.
I shouldn't have wasted my time typing all this, you didn't get what my post(s) was about as far as I can tell. I can only say that it's sad that people think the game is as limited as this. Also, why the fascination with:
1 - Calling everything a "rush"
2 - Trying to fit every tactic into a simplified "genre"
If you weren't trying to divide everything into an easily describable folder then you wouldn't miss out on the nuances and variations. The game is best played when both teams use lots of teamwork and communication, perform quick counter-tactics (5 Marines in Cargo - hit MB, Proto in base - lerk up).
Just played two excellent games as Alien where Marines went for JP/HMG. We countered with Lerks and Gorges in the hive, while the skulks kept doing their job (ie: harass marines and kill undefended structures). After 3 failed JP/HMG attempts Marines switched tactics and we had to adapt again, now that is fun. The game lasted a good 30-40 minutes.
Seems like the game is played very differently on different servers, makes me more and more grateful that I get to play with our regulars and reservers, your kind of game does indeed sound boring.
Ps. Anyone who likes more diverse and creative games, PM me and I'll give you our IP.
HAHHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHH
ok I am done... that is why 10000 Koreans go spectate live a starcraft match... never see C and C do that...
Maybe all koreans are morons? I beg your pardon.